Since people are discussing it anyway... my thoughts on S8!Buffy...

[elisi]

OK this? Is *hugely* subjective. And somewhat tongue-in-cheek. If you love S8!Buffy maybe you should just stay clear... (I'm off to spend the evening snuggled up to Darcy, and then I'm going to bed. Might not answer comments, OK?)

Simply put - I don’t like that castle. Thinking about it a bit, it occurred to me that Voll might be easier to understand that it would at first appear. He’s up against an organisation that:

- Has secret headquarters in remote parts of the world.
- Uses helicopters and various high tech equipment for (secret) missions.
- Has a charimsatic leader (with a few doubles to confuse assassins) and an army of loyal, superpowered girls.

Exchange ‘superpowered girls’ with ‘henchmen’ and you have a *classic* Evil Overlord scenario. I mean - seriously. Just think about it for a minute. Of course Buffy isn’t evil, she’s trying to rid the world of badness, but... Didn’t any number of Evil Overlords claim the same? Just look at Jasmine.

The thing is, I just really, really don’t like the fact that she’s stuck in that castle. Has anyone in the entire comic so far interacted with a person who isn’t a Slayer, Scoobie or demon (except for Underground!Buffy talking to her friends before being called)? Joss’ Slayers are saving the world, but they’re not a part of it.

What happened to the Buffy who didn’t just go slaying, she had to look good too (and no, asking fellow Slayers for fashion tips does *not* count!)? The Buffy who wanted to be prom queen? The Buffy who was always, always reaching out to the ordinary people around her? The Buffy who worried if she needed to buy more cereal? The Buffy who loved dancing?

It’s very simple - she’s in Rome, Italy. A country full of sunshine and warmth and LIFE! A place that is old, from whence the whole world was once ruled. (Interestingly, they got as far as Northern England and then didn’t go any further. Scotland was off the map of Ancient Rome...)

I like Buffy being in Rome - the girl from the New World in the ancient city (there's a lot of nice themes or metaphors wrapped up in that, but I don't have time to delve). Trying to get to grips with a new language, actually living amidst history (which is a subject she enjoys!), a place full of passion and vividness, wonderful food and a wholesome appetite for life, generally.

Because the thing is, in their last moments together, Spike told Buffy:

‘It’s your world up there.’

I don’t care if the line didn’t make it onto screen, this was still his message to her - an echo of his song in OMWF:

‘You have to go on living. So one of us is living.’

The Buffy who’s in Rome understood that. She might be the head of a thousand strong Slayer army, but she also has time for shopping and dancing and snuggling up with her gorgeous immortal lover, who might or might not be evil. She has a type, and she’s finally stopped worrying about it.

Compared to S8!Buffy, living in what is practically a convent, and lusting after/having nightmares about her best friend because he’s the only male within a 50 mile radius... well... I’m reminded of this (from Triangle):

BUFFY: So, um, a-about being a nun... you know, um, with the whole ... abjuring the company of men ... you know, how's that working for you? The... abjuring.
NUN: Um ... good.
BUFFY: Yeah, do you, do you have to be like super-religious?
NUN: Well, uh...
BUFFY: How's the food?

I dunno. It’s not that she can’t be miserable in Rome (or wherever), it’s that she’s so particularly cut off in that castle...

And, to quote shapinglight:

The castle is just silly and what's more, the Queen is getting jolly fed up of living in the gamekeeper's cottage. She wants those strange Americans to move out now.

Comments

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

The Evil Overlord parallels really are there, aren't they? I'd also cite the fact that most of the girls don't talk as more support for the henchperson profile. Yikes.

I don't get the isolated castle thing either. It seems like a direct reversal of the open road of the end of the series, symbolically speaking - a dead end masoluem instead of infinite possiblity suggested by "Chosen" - and it's far more secret-society than the Initiative was, which at least allowed its members a cover identity of "normal" college students to interact with the residents of Sunnydale. Buffy has no contact anymore with anyone she's technically trying to help. It really is like she's joined a convent!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

But, overall, the comics as a whole don't feel (to me) as though they grew out of the show's season 7. They feel like a reboot. I think this is what contributes to the feel of "professional fanfic." In fanfic I'm used to an author stepping off into an AU at any given point in time in the BtVS world thereby not having to deal with points in canon that conflict. They don't matter in this particular world.

Joss has retconned not only Rome but Warren, Amy, etc. It feels like a fanfic reboot. Which is valid enough, I suppose, but it doesn't feel like it organically grew from where Season 7 left off. It doesn't feel like a canonical Season 8 to me. It feels like Joss's AU post, oh, I don't know. Where did he jump off canon anyway? With Warren?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

In my head, Buffy went to Rome. It was burned into my brain long before the comics, and still feels more like canon to me than the comics. I can't help it. Theoretically I was willing to consider the comics as canon, but it just never clicks. Canon is what I saw on screen.

[elisi]

In my head, Buffy went to Rome. It was burned into my brain long before the comics, and still feels more like canon to me than the comics. I can't help it.
Same here. And I *like* Buffy being in Rome.

Canon is what I saw on screen.
*nods vigorously* I am (obviously) looking forward to AtS S6 very much, but that's because I'm hoping and praying that it'll be an excellent story. My show ended with NFA.

Oh and welcome to! I've been meaning to friend you for ages and ages (ever since you wrote the best explanation for Spike's soul quest ever), but I guess I'm just slow...

[empresspatti.livejournal.com]

I think Josh is doing a sloppy job at something he doesn't care about because he doesn't have other revenue streams at the moment.

My Buffy is in Italy kicking Spike's ass because he took so long to get to her. And they all lived (more or less) happily ever after.

IMHO S8 is just a money grab and an attempt to branch the franchise out to characters I don't care about.

[elisi]

My feeling is more that he's using our characters to tell a story that isn't theirs - squishing them and cutting corners to make them fit.

And my perfect post-NFA scenario is this one: So This Is How They Are (S/B, PG-13, Dawn POV), which comes with a wonderful FitB: Getting It (S/A, R, Buffy POV).

I honestly don't know *what* S8 is. Most sadly of all, it's not pretty...

[kathyh]

The thing is, I just really, really don’t like the fact that she’s stuck in that castle.

No, I don't either and if Buffy had known that was where her future was going to take she sure as hell wouldn't have been smiling at the end of Chosen. I presume it's a metaphor for her being walled off or an allusion to Sleeping Beauty or something, but at the moment it's really not working for me though I live in hope that perhaps we're not supposed to see it as a good place for her to be.

Trying to get to grips with a new language, actually living amidst history (which is a subject she enjoys!), a place full of passion and vividness, wonderful food and a wholesome appetite for life, generally.

Very well put. In my head that's where Buffy still is!

[elisi]

if Buffy had known that was where her future was going to take she sure as hell wouldn't have been smiling at the end of Chosen.
Very true.

I live in hope that perhaps we're not supposed to see it as a good place for her to be.
I'll cross my fingers, but...

Very well put. In my head that's where Buffy still is!
And so much warmer than Scotland. :)

[shapinglight]

I'm willing to accept that the whole Evil Overlord thing might be meant to be taken ironically (ie. General Voll will turn out to be a villain like Holtz, who sort of has a point). However, I don't like the castle and the isolation it symbolises either. Plus - midges!

Also, it's the Queen. She says 'ite', not 'out.' It's a thing.

[elisi]

I'm willing to accept that the whole Evil Overlord thing might be meant to be taken ironically (ie. General Voll will turn out to be a villain like Holtz, who sort of has a point).
*hopes and prays*

However, I don't like the castle and the isolation it symbolises either. Plus - midges!
And it looks like a hotel.

Also, it's the Queen. She says 'ite', not 'out.' It's a thing.
True. But I didn't want every American to tell me that it was misspelt. *g*

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Exchange ‘superpowered girls’ with ‘henchmen’ and you have a *classic* Evil Overlord scenario. I mean - seriously. Just think about it for a minute. Of course Buffy isn’t evil, she’s trying to rid the world of badness, but... Didn’t any number of Evil Overlords claim the same? Just look at Jasmine.

Exactly. To me, this is the good thing about s8; that IS a pretty strong arc (potentially). It's obvious that Voll (whom, I suppose, our heroes were sporting enough to leave behind with Ethan's dead body when they left the base rather than, say, kidnap him to get some more information) has done his homework and knows what he's/they're up against. The interesting thing is that Buffy might theoretically be on the path to becoming an evil overlord and not even know it (insert quote from LoTR, Galadriel refusing the ring, "everyone would love me and despair" and all that) - "Buffy, you ARE the dark".

So I really do believe we're not meant to think that castle is a good thing, for exactly the reasons you outline. Only thing is... we don't know why they would have thought it is a good thing to begin with. After following them for seven years, suddenly we're missing vital backstory. I'm all for gradual reveals in storytelling, but...

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

So I really do believe we're not meant to think that castle is a good thing, for exactly the reasons you outline. Only thing is... we don't know why they would have thought it is a good thing to begin with.

I'm honestly not sure that we are meant to see the castle as a bad thing - the past of the series and a whopping lot of genre material would definitely suggest that, but after all the other reversals, how can we be sure? Maybe this is the new world order, and we're meant to think it makes sense, just because it's a "clever" gender-reversal of a Sgt. Rock comic, or who knows? I'd love to see the scenario outlined above, where Buffy had to face her own Galadriel-like challenge, but with so much of the connective tissue of the story missing, I don't really know if that's where things are headed. And, like you said, why did anyone think this was a good plan? Because Slayers holing up in the equivalent of Dracula's castle seemed what, poetic?

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

A quick addendum in case that last post sounded too cranky: I'm just grumbling about the comic, it's not directed at you at all. All your observations are great. (Did they really leave the general behind, or imply as much, by not showing him prisoner or whatever? Gah.)

[rahirah]

The trouble I have is that I've lost all confidence in my ability to interpret what Joss is trying to say. I still don't understand what I'm supposed to take away from Buffy's arc in the last two seasons. (I mean, I take stuff from it, but I'm pretty sure that it's not what Joss wants me to take.) So I can't trust the story or Joss, because I no longer feel that I understand what's important to him as a storyteller, or why it's important.

[liliaeth]

Considering that Joss actually expected us to see Buffy and Spike smashing down that old broken down house in Smashed as a bad thing, I really don't think he gets the meaning of certain symbols anymore.

I agree on the whole castle thing feeling wrong for Buffy, it breaks the whole thing of the show, the meeting between the familiar and the weird, the normal world and the demonic world. Being in that castle and having no connection with the real world, this no longer feels like Buffy, but like some male fantasy story. In fact, the more I read of it, the more it feels like most of the Xander/Buffy fic I've happened to read until I realized the pairing.

On top of that I refuse to see the comic as canon, until we see Buffy show at least some respect to Spike's memory, or some aknowledgement that she knows he's back alive. Until we see a Buffy who sees Spike as more than some old vibrator of hers, I refuse to even considder this Buffy as our Buffy.

[elisi]

Exactly. To me, this is the good thing about s8; that IS a pretty strong arc (potentially).
Could be, yes. I shall however remain sceptical until it has proven itself to be good.

we don't know why they would have thought it is a good thing to begin with.
Exactly. I have this little fic thing sat in my head, where Spike & Angel go to Scotland, and when they ask Buffy *why* she decided to live there, she replies 'I don't know." (Much in the way of Homer when he's pretending to be Mr Burns and is asked what his first name is.) Could be fun though...

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

sing it sister.

so much truth in just one post.

[elisi]

Thank you sweetie! :)

(I'm enjoying my own post-Chosen/NFA 'verse v. much though. Can't wait until I get some time for writing...)

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Interestingly, they got as far as Northern England and then didn’t go any further. Scotland was off the map of Ancient Rome...

Trust Buffy to place herself outwith the ken of Empires, the girl’s a rebel at heart. People seem to keep missing the point that while Slayer.org is isolated within that org Buffy is closer to her friends and her colleagues/sisters/protégés than she has been since she coming back from the dead. Her world is made up of people not shopping malls and ancient monuments and Slayers are people too. People she works with people she’s helping people helping one another, she’s finally moved on from that lone martyr complex. Yes it’s a problem that she’s so little contact with anyone not in the biz and one with great potential for future conflict. I think what we’re seeing with the castle is a metaphor not for isolation but for the kind of 24/7 vocational focus people have when they’re lucky enough to find a career that suits them.


Because the thing is, in their last moments together, Spike told Buffy:
‘It’s your world up there.’
I don’t care if the line didn’t make it onto screen, this was still his message to her - an echo of his song in OMWF:
‘You have to go on living. So one of us is living.’

I always found that last line of Spike’s song revealingly creepy- she has to go on living for his sake, it’s what he needs. That aside is this the real root of all your complaints that Buffy isn’t doing what Spike told her to do? She’s living a life that has nothing to do with her romantic type and which neither confirms or denies what that type is?

[elisi]

that while Slayer.org is isolated within that org Buffy is closer to her friends and her colleagues/sisters/protégés than she has been since she coming back from the dead.
She and Dawn are *not* on good terms. Xander she's fine with, except for those nightmares... Willow has been missing for *ages*, although they're obviously still good (there has to be a fallout of some sort though). And that's pretty much it. Giles she barely has contact with. Andrew (who I wouldn't classify as a 'friend' anyway) is in Italy. The Potentials that she bonded with in Sunnydale are off elsewhere too. Anya is dead. Spike likewise (as far as she knows). Angel's working for Evil Inc. Her new fellow slayers are in awe of her and call her Ma'am.

I think what we’re seeing with the castle is a metaphor not for isolation but for the kind of 24/7 vocational focus people have when they’re lucky enough to find a career that suits them.
I just can't really see it. Not that she isn't enjoying working with her fellow slayers, but she doesn't seem happy or particularly focussed. Also I think she ought to go back to uni - she was a good student, and had fun learning. This could prefectly well be combined with Slaying.

I always found that last line of Spike’s song revealingly creepy- she has to go on living for his sake, it’s what he needs.
*blinks* He saved her life - one of the only times she's was saved from certain death (the Scoobies were less than useless) - and then *he* (a dead man) explains what life is about: "Life's not a song, life isn't bliss, life is just this - it's living. You'll get along, the pain that you feel, you only can heal, by living. You have to go on living - so one of us is living." And then Dawn repeats Buffy's own words back to her: "The hardest thing in this world is to live in it."

It's not that she has to live *for* him (Chosen is the main culprit there, echoing what Angel said when he broke up with her), but that being dead he understands life... not that he wants to be human at that point, but we see later how he is as attracted to the shanshu as Angel is - because, being on the outside, they understand life better than those on the inside and know what they're missing out on. To quote Entropy:

It's no wonder they couldn't deal with the likes of you and me, luv. We should have been dead hundreds of years ago ... and we're the only ones who are really alive.

(Sorry, didn't mean to go on. But I love that subject.)

She’s living a life that has nothing to do with her romantic type and which neither confirms or denies what that type is?
My problem is - to quote James from 'Heartthrob':

"You think you won - just because you're still alive? - I lived. - You just existed."

Buffy in S8 is just existing. There's none of that zest for life that I always adored.

But then again, that is just my opinion - told you this was a hugely subjective post. I think Buffy is wasting her life in that castle... when she could be *anywhere*, doing anything.

[toysdream.livejournal.com]

What happened to the Buffy who didn’t just go slaying, she had to look good too (and no, asking fellow Slayers for fashion tips does *not* count!)? The Buffy who wanted to be prom queen? The Buffy who was always, always reaching out to the ordinary people around her?

I kind of feel like that Buffy went away as of "Chosen." Before the final episode Buffy often had to reach out to "ordinary people" for help, as in "Anne" or the graduation battle that ended Season 3 or the awesome display of Scoobie teamwork in "The Gift." Even in the final battle with Adam, Buffy draws on the non-Slayer abilities of her closest friends. But once she has an army of Buffy clones at her disposal, she doesn't really need the help of normal folks anymore.

Actually, I think "Chosen" itself served as a somewhat absurd demonstration of this. Not only is the final battle fought without the help of Giles's wisdom or Xander's construction equipment or Anya's magic gadgets, but the entire cast are put to work hacking and slashing in classic Slayer style--even Anya and Andrew and Dawn and one-eyed Xander pick up swords and start dueling Bringers and Ubervamps! At the time I just put it down to creative exhaustion and assumed that the writers couldn't be bothered coming up with a more plausible way for the Scoobies to contribute to the fight. But in hindsight, it could also be an early indicator that Buffy was no longer going to rely on ordinary human abilities for backup.

Since I didn't like "Chosen," this doesn't make me feel any better about the comics. But on the other hand, the Season 8 setup doesn't strike me as that big a departure from the Season 7 finale.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

At the time I just put it down to creative exhaustion and assumed that the writers couldn't be bothered coming up with a more plausible way for the Scoobies to contribute to the fight. But in hindsight, it could also be an early indicator that Buffy was no longer going to rely on ordinary human abilities for backup.

You know, that's a solid point. So you could say that S8 is following up on the actual intended meaning of the ending of BtVS, of Buffy going into her future as leader of a superpowered army, and that viewers who interpreted the ending to mean that she was free to have a normal life were just way off target. I suppose that's the problem with closing on an ambigious, make-of-it-what-you-will note.

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

It’s very simple - she’s in Rome, Italy. A country full of sunshine and warmth and LIFE! A place that is old, from whence the whole world was once ruled. (Interestingly, they got as far as Northern England and then didn’t go any further. Scotland was off the map of Ancient Rome...)

The first time I read this I took the 'they' in the part in brackets as meaning 'the Slayers' and I posted a comment on that basis. I deleted it seconds later when I realised that in fact the 'they' refers to 'the Romans'.

[elisi]

Sorry, bad writing. Wrote it in a hurry and then posted with only a quick read-through.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Congratulations on your willpower on not replying so far! :-)

Like you said, mostly this is all subjective: but I will say one thing:

It looks to me as if you just want Buffy to have a happy ending. "Spike sacrificed himself to save the world, the Hellmouth closed, Buffy was reunited with her friends, and they all lived happily ever after." But Joss wants to tell a new story, that picks up from where 'Chosen' left off and shows the consequences of Buffy's actions that day. To show what it would actually be like to have a force of several hundred Slayers loose in the world, and the sort of problems they'd face. You can't have much drama or tension if Buffy is spending all her time dancing and shopping in Rome...


What happened to the Buffy who didn’t just go slaying, she had to look good too (and no, asking fellow Slayers for fashion tips does *not* count!)? The Buffy who wanted to be prom queen? The Buffy who was always, always reaching out to the ordinary people around her? The Buffy who worried if she needed to buy more cereal? The Buffy who loved dancing?

She died. Jumped off a tower in place of her sister to save the world.

Really, the Buffy you're describing there is the Buffy from the early seasons. Even after she got over her depression in S6, S7 Buffy was far more focussed on her mission, far less carefree, far more cut off from anything not Slaying-related. S8 Buffy seems a perfectly logical continuation of that character: if anything, I think she's slowly getting herself back in touch with life. I've commented in my reviews how she's rebuilding her friendship with Willow and Xander - far better than she would be in the Girl-In-Questionverse where she was in Europe, Xander was in Africa and Willow was in South America...

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Congratulations on your willpower on not replying so far! :-)

Except then I noticed that you did reply on Saturday morning...

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I doubt that Joss gave much thought to political and social implications when he has put Buffy into a Scottish castle. I suppose he did it because, to him, it looked romantic and exotic (yet everybody speaks English there).

And, yes, Buffy starts from square one.

I think of s1 as s8 remake on steroids. I suppose the change of medium means Joss has to seek approval of younger audience - and he retcons Buffy and her friends as teenage heroes with huge responsibilities and little experience.

[cordykitten]

Yes I'm late again like always. :) I can't talk about it, I only know some spoilers (and always looking for more) but I never read the BtVS or A.