elisi | Since people are discussing it anyway... my thoughts on S8!Buffy...

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Since people are discussing it anyway... my thoughts on S8!Buffy...

OK this? Is *hugely* subjective. And somewhat tongue-in-cheek. If you love S8!Buffy maybe you should just stay clear... (I'm off to spend the evening snuggled up to Darcy, and then I'm going to bed. Might not answer comments, OK?)

Simply put - I don’t like that castle. Thinking about it a bit, it occurred to me that Voll might be easier to understand that it would at first appear. He’s up against an organisation that:

- Has secret headquarters in remote parts of the world.
- Uses helicopters and various high tech equipment for (secret) missions.
- Has a charimsatic leader (with a few doubles to confuse assassins) and an army of loyal, superpowered girls.

Exchange ‘superpowered girls’ with ‘henchmen’ and you have a *classic* Evil Overlord scenario. I mean - seriously. Just think about it for a minute. Of course Buffy isn’t evil, she’s trying to rid the world of badness, but... Didn’t any number of Evil Overlords claim the same? Just look at Jasmine.

The thing is, I just really, really don’t like the fact that she’s stuck in that castle. Has anyone in the entire comic so far interacted with a person who isn’t a Slayer, Scoobie or demon (except for Underground!Buffy talking to her friends before being called)? Joss’ Slayers are saving the world, but they’re not a part of it.

What happened to the Buffy who didn’t just go slaying, she had to look good too (and no, asking fellow Slayers for fashion tips does *not* count!)? The Buffy who wanted to be prom queen? The Buffy who was always, always reaching out to the ordinary people around her? The Buffy who worried if she needed to buy more cereal? The Buffy who loved dancing?

It’s very simple - she’s in Rome, Italy. A country full of sunshine and warmth and LIFE! A place that is old, from whence the whole world was once ruled. (Interestingly, they got as far as Northern England and then didn’t go any further. Scotland was off the map of Ancient Rome...)

I like Buffy being in Rome - the girl from the New World in the ancient city (there's a lot of nice themes or metaphors wrapped up in that, but I don't have time to delve). Trying to get to grips with a new language, actually living amidst history (which is a subject she enjoys!), a place full of passion and vividness, wonderful food and a wholesome appetite for life, generally.

Because the thing is, in their last moments together, Spike told Buffy:

‘It’s your world up there.’

I don’t care if the line didn’t make it onto screen, this was still his message to her - an echo of his song in OMWF:

‘You have to go on living. So one of us is living.’

The Buffy who’s in Rome understood that. She might be the head of a thousand strong Slayer army, but she also has time for shopping and dancing and snuggling up with her gorgeous immortal lover, who might or might not be evil. She has a type, and she’s finally stopped worrying about it.

Compared to S8!Buffy, living in what is practically a convent, and lusting after/having nightmares about her best friend because he’s the only male within a 50 mile radius... well... I’m reminded of this (from Triangle):

BUFFY: So, um, a-about being a nun... you know, um, with the whole ... abjuring the company of men ... you know, how's that working for you? The... abjuring.
NUN: Um ... good.
BUFFY: Yeah, do you, do you have to be like super-religious?
NUN: Well, uh...
BUFFY: How's the food?

I dunno. It’s not that she can’t be miserable in Rome (or wherever), it’s that she’s so particularly cut off in that castle...

And, to quote shapinglight:

The castle is just silly and what's more, the Queen is getting jolly fed up of living in the gamekeeper's cottage. She wants those strange Americans to move out now.

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This is really an issue that deserves a very long meta (

stormwreath has written a few on the subject) and it's really late over here, but as far as I can tell, the question isn't so much about how you come about power but how you use it. Willow got smacked down hard by karma, not because she was powerful but because she didn't use that power responsibly (and, indeed, has trouble with the concept as far back as in s1). The same would apply to Faith, who got her powers the exact same way Buffy did. Joss in on record as saying that Angel's "if nothing we do matters, all that matters is what we do" speech is his own philosophy; his ethical perspective is on actions, not consequences. Heroes or champions or whatever you want to call them are people who do the right thing regardless, not the ones who are most powerful. The people who live as if the ends justify the means - Wesley, Willow, to a lesser extent Giles in s7, and obviously most villains - invariably get in trouble. So the question is, what sort of decision was that spell in "Chosen"? Was it the right thing to do, or simply the best weapon to win a war with, which they are now paying the cost for... or both, or neither? I'm rambling. Sorry.

*holds head* And all it would've taken is one panel showing the guy escaping.

And another thing that puzzles me - why is Voll talking in 8.04, anyway? If he truly believes his own spiel, why is he showing his hand? I thought soldiers were trained to only reveal name and rank; instead, he immediately tells them everything.

as far as I can tell, the question isn't so much about how you come about power but how you use it.

I'd agree this is one of those long-meta issues, and as much I'd love to agree that it's all about the use of power, in all honesty, I don't think the series is really that consistent on the subject. I'd have to read some of the essays in question to respond to specific points, but especially the later seasons seemed very keen on graying things up to the point where I had a hard time telling if Joss really does have a weakness for authoritarianism, or whether it just looks like it. But, yeah, that's a discussion for another day.

So the question is, what sort of decision was that spell in "Chosen"? Was it the right thing to do, or simply the best weapon to win a war with, which they are now paying the cost for... or both, or neither? I'm rambling. Sorry.

No, really, that IS the big question, and I'd love to see it addressed, I do find it kind of odd that it's taking so long to get around to that point, though - you'd think that establishing whether the heroes are, in actuality, heroic or heading down a tragically wrong path would be something you'd want to get on the table quickly.

And another thing that puzzles me - why is Voll talking in 8.04, anyway? If he truly believes his own spiel, why is he showing his hand? I thought soldiers were trained to only reveal name and rank; instead, he immediately tells them everything.

It's a bit serial villain, isn't it? As a stylistic device, this kind of thing was clever and cheeky on demons or W&H employees of the I'm-evil-ask-me-how! variety, but coming from a guy who sees himself as the good one, much less a professional solider? Doesn't make sense. There's a part of me that almost wants to call dream sequence on the whole thing, since there are so many little spots like that, of the kind of illogic that would work best in a dream.

you'd think that establishing whether the heroes are, in actuality, heroic or heading down a tragically wrong path would be something you'd want to get on the table quickly.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there; if this is where it's going, then the story is basically a variation on "power corrupts" - and IMO, it's much more interesting to see how that happens than it would be to come in after it's happened. (There's been quite enough of "a lot of stuff happened that we're note telling you" in the comics already.) I don't want simple black/white hero/villain good/evil demarcations set up in the first paragraph; and I certainly wouldn't want it to start off with "Those people you thought were the heroes for 7 years? Yeah, they're now the bad guys. Deal with it." Them trying to figure out what side they're on (or what side they could potentially be on) is not the foundation of the story; it IS the story. It needs to be ambiguous, and it needs to be a gradual thing. It's just a pity that comics - five minutes of story a month - isn't exactly the best format for that kind of storytelling...

Them trying to figure out what side they're on (or what side they could potentially be on) is not the foundation of the story; it IS the story. It needs to be ambiguous, and it needs to be a gradual thing. It's just a pity that comics - five minutes of story a month - isn't exactly the best format for that kind of storytelling...

That's kind of what I was thinking of, the awkwardness of the format for telling that sort of story. After all, S5 Angel was essentially about slow corruption, but as viewers we were reminded constantly that W&H was a Bad Place, and that the heroes were wrestling with some difficult compromises, even as they continued to try to be heroic. So far in the comic, the clues have been less direct - assuming that's what's being attempted - so it's more a story about reader perception, i.e., if it does turn out that the "heroes" are on the wrong path, then what does that say about me, if I'm defending their actions, because I'm convinced that they're "good" and so must be everything they do? It's a great question to be asking, especially in the current U.S. political climate, but meanwhile I guess it's up for the individual reader to make those calls. Which is kind of a weird place to put the readership in: either you're being set up for a bait-and-switch - the Slayers are really the bad guys, and you've been rooting for them! - or you can become increasingly disturbed and put off the book, which is more where I'm at. It's the sort of story that, I think, works better in graphic novel format, where you can read the whole thing in one go.

as much I'd love to agree that it's all about the use of power, in all honesty, I don't think the series is really that consistent on the subject. I'd have to read some of the essays in question to respond to specific points, but especially the later seasons seemed very keen on graying things up to the point where I had a hard time telling if Joss really does have a weakness for authoritarianism, or whether it just looks like it.

A 'weakness for authoritarianism'?? The message I get from Buffy, pretty clearly, is this:

Power corrupts, power can be used for evil, people who seek power are often dangerous, yadda yadda yadda. BUT: power can also be used for good - and in fact, if the good guys have no power, then evil wins by default. "All that is required for the triumph of evil is for good [wo]men to do nothing."

Season 7 in particular ('Get It Done', 'Chosen') showed Buffy accepting the logic of this, taking on power for herself and sharing it with her allies. Season 8 is about showing the consequences of that decision.

I never thought Buffy was about simple moral lessons, about "people who do so-and-so always come to bad ends". It was a show that said "given these changes - the existence of supernatural evil and people with special powers - what would be the real-world results of these changes? How would people react: not in a clichéd storybook way, but how would real people react to having these abilities and knowing these facts?" In 'Chosen' Buffy and the Scoobies changed the world. Now they have to live in that world.

I don't think Buffy is about simple moral lessons either, only that at times it does tend to slide into fictional moral logic at times, the stuff of dramatic convention. Such as, "torture works (if the good guys do it), although the truly stalwart can resist," etc. Moral choices are sometimes made very easy for the characters, because the bad guys will self-declare that they're Evil! (frex, Faith in S3). So there's gray, and that's good, and there's realism, and that's good too, but there's also a number of dramatic path-smootheners to the morality that don't really resemble real-world complexity, and at times I find the seesaw between the two a bit frustrating.

In case you're wondering, the authoritarianism I wonder at comes from the sudden shift in the final seasons of both BtVS and AtS to a story where a charismatic leader says, "we must do or die," and others are meant to follow without question. I raise my eyebrow.

I wouldn't argue that sometimes the show's message and philosophy sometime got confused - but that's probably because it had dozens of writers over eight years. Even so - just because Faith calls herself evil doesn't mean that, say, Buffy's decision to go and kill her in 'Graduation Day' wasn't shown as unproblematic and easy.

sudden shift in the final seasons of both BtVS and AtS to a story where a charismatic leader says, "we must do or die," and others are meant to follow without question.

I'm afraid I didn't see that at all. When Buffy did try saying that, all her friends not only refused to obey but kicked her out of the house until she came up with a better plan! And the new plan specifically involved empowering other people and putting them at the same level as herself... and even so, she asked for input and consent rather than charging ahead with her plan.

Same for Angel - yes, he came up with a do and die plan, but he didn't expect his colleagues to follow without question - he asked for their help and even put the plan to a vote!

Sorry to be absent for awhile there - I've been meaning to get back to you on this thread, because I think you've brought up something key here.

I'm afraid I didn't see that at all. When Buffy did try saying that, all her friends not only refused to obey but kicked her out of the house until she came up with a better plan! And the new plan specifically involved empowering other people and putting them at the same level as herself... and even so, she asked for input and consent rather than charging ahead with her plan.

This is something I've been struggling to find a way to describe since the series ended. I can see exactly what you mean here, and the story does include all these verbal cues about the Potentials having a choice, and asking for input, but... BUT...

Remember before, when I was talking about fictional logic? There's my problem. Buffy's new plan really isn't that different from her old one! Both rely on Buffy's gut instinct, and the real difference in the second case is her audience - after a brief flirtation with alternate leadership for which they were smacked down hard by the plot, they're now willing to listen, and apparently have few questions or complaints, which is how we're meant to tell it's a good plan. So Buffy's slightly more concillatory attitude and revised plan work because they're written to be successful, not because there's really been any huge sea change. Symbolically speaking, I get the gist of it, but I was expecting more.

And I had the same problem with Angel's plan - he puts it up to a vote after he's already set the plan in motion, but he also says, "I can't do it without you," which is pretty manipulative - but then I don't have a problem with seeing Angel as gray, but Buffy... that's more problematic for me.

Buffy's new plan really isn't that different from her old one!

My impression is that we simply don't have enough information to judge Buffy's plan (or lack thereof). A little while back, I spent some time poring over the details of Chosen with an eye to writing some "fill-in-the-blank" scenes describing how the plan came together, and it struck me as significant that when Buffy presents her idea to Giles and the Scoobies, Faith is standing next to her. The implication is that Buffy's already gone over this with Faith before presenting it to the rest of the class, and one imagines that she's also checked with Willow to make sure the magical element is actually possible. That suggests a fairly extensive planning process, rather than something Buffy just pulled out of thin air.

The problem is that, like most aspects of Chosen, all we have are implications and hints. It looks like Buffy's done some serious planning, it appears that the Scoobies have kissed and made up, it seems like she's consulting them all in an inclusive fashion, it's implied that there's an element of choice in the power-up spell... but all the details are hidden offscreen. This is one of those situations where a novelization (a proper novelization, not a copy-and-paste of the TV scripts) might have been rather helpful.

*jumps in v. quickly*

I can see what you're saying, but I just feel the need to point out that Buffy's Chosen plan is different from her Empty Places one - both in scope and in what she hopes to achieve.

In EP she wants to barge in to the vineyard, because she wants to get back whatever it is that Caleb has of hers. She works on instinct, and the others balk, because it is no different to her plan in Dirty Girls that got them killed, and they can't see a different outcome this time. The point being hat they're both right - Caleb *does* have something (something crucial no less), but the way to get it is not with a large force, but just one fighter by herself, scalpel-like.

The thing about Chosen is that it is Buffy finally doing what she vowed in 'Bring on the Night' - take the fight to the enemy and wiping it out. And she has now worked out how to do it. I get what you say about the whole thing being engineered to work, but that doesn't bother me. I like the way it all fits together, how everything comes full circle.

I know... I think it's really one of those things where it either bugs you or it doesn't. I mean, at the time of "Bring on the Night," I was all "yeah, go Buffy!" but by the time of "Chosen," I felt like I hadn't seen ten episodes of preparation for that idea, just another spur of the moment plan thought up the night before. So... yeah, I get what it's meant to mean, and how it's meant to work, but for me the timing, and a lot of other things are just... off. But I do always enjoy reading your meta on the subject, because you manage to draw out more of what I wish I could see, without all the the reservations.

I don't have time for the reply I'd like to give, and also I need to know if you've read HP 7? (it illustrates the point I want to make! *g*)

Yeah, I have - in what way? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that.

It'll have to wait until monday I'm afraid... *curses RL*

No problem. Whenever you're free. : )

Okay, doubt I'll ever get time to write this down as properly as I'd like, so this is going to be very quick.

Bascially, we in both HP7 and BtVS S7 have a point where the heroes say 'This is what we need to do!'... and then don't really know how to proceed. In HP it's the fact that they have to find and destroy the horcruxes, but then spend *months* just travelling and hiding, scarecely making any progress at all, and falling out in the process. On BtVS it's Buffy's speech (points to icon) - she knows *what* to do, but not how. And then spends months flailing and getting things wrong.

Interestingly, in both cases their fortune turns when they 'find' a weapon. And once they then know *how* to proceed, things move swiftly. (A lot swifter on BtVS of course, but then The First is only the last in a long line of Big Bads. Voldemort is *it*!)

Anyway, I - personally - like the period of useless struggle. It feels a lot more authentic than those where everything conveniently appears as they need it. And it showcases how flawed our heroes can be, which is another good thing IMHO. :)

(And that's it - have to run. Hope this is what we were actually talking about, because it's been that long that this conversation is kinda hazy... *g*)

Thanks for taking the time to jot this down!

It's a good comparison, and I can definitely see the similarity between the two stories, but as how it relates to what we were talking about, which was how Buffy's plan at the end of "Chosen" struck me as just as impromptu as her previous plan to go back to the vineyard.... hm. I'd honestly have to admit that I think the way it played out in HP was rather better done. But then that story was also about young students, so the part where they're learning from every new experience was coded pretty heavily into the story all the way through. I think by S7, we were getting far more shorthand on that topic in Buffy.

Anyway, I - personally - like the period of useless struggle. It feels a lot more authentic than those where everything conveniently appears as they need it. And it showcases how flawed our heroes can be, which is another good thing IMHO. :)

I like this too, actually. Although personally I would finger the magic "scythe" as one of those props that suddenly appears when one needs it - it's established so late in the game, not like, say, the power-draining orb and troll hammer in S5, which were weapons picked up throughout the season. Ditto in HP, where you get the return of objects mentioned in earlier books.

how Buffy's plan at the end of "Chosen" struck me as just as impromptu as her previous plan to go back to the vineyard.... hm.
Just realised that now I can point you in the direction of my Empty Places post, in which I talk about Buffy's planning (amongst other things). (She was always an impromptu kinda gal, going with her instincts.)

I think by S7, we were getting far more shorthand on that topic in
Very true. We know what she's capable of, as does she.

Although personally I would finger the magic "scythe" as one of those props that suddenly appears when one needs it
Like the sword that Kendra brings in 'Becoming'...

Like the sword that Kendra brings in 'Becoming'...

Not... exactly. The sword wasn't what you'd call a crucial element in stopping Acathla - it seemed to be more an excuse to bring Kendra back into the picture rather than important in itself. We're told that Angel's blood is needed to close the portal, that's all - there's no research session about the sword, or an explanation of what it does, or a big spell drawing on its power... it's just a good weapon for Buffy to wield, sort of like the Troll Hammer.

I don't dispute at all that Buffy's always been an instincts-based person - your "Empty Places" post has especially good points about Buffy's changed attitudes - but I do still have issues with this being held up as the only workable ideal for leadership (see Faith's failed captaincy, etc.), and that's where it starts to fall down for me. There's the Buffy's-story aspect to the last few episodes, which I CAN see, but then there's the... let's say political tone to some of it that makes me uncomfortable, where it seems to be implied that only Buffy's instincts can lead to victory. That's where I could have stood to have seen more of the others giving input on Buffy's final plan so it seemed like more of a group effort - which is, after all, what I think they were going for. It's the same problem I have with the comics, where I think I'm MEANT to see all these girls as one unified force of volunteers with equal powers, yay, but what I'm seeing is Buffy lecturing to a silent audience, which kind of works against that.

This is all just me, though - I'm not trying to bring you down on the end of the show. If anything, I respect your ability to draw out the positive messages.

Look who remembered! *g*

I see what you're saying about The Scythe, but then it is introduced in 'Dirty Girls' (or rather we're told that there's a *reason* Caleb comes to Sunnydale etc). Also I just adore the Scythe (even if it is misnamed), so I'm ready to forgive a lot!

let's say political tone to some of it that makes me uncomfortable, where it seems to be implied that only Buffy's instincts can lead to victory.
Aaaah. Yes I can see why that's a problem. It doesn't bother me, because it was always about the personal stories for me, far more than any message. And this is why I'm having such a problem with the comics, because there *is* no personal story to latch onto, or, when there is (in Faith's case) it's so badly handled that I have to pretend that she's someone else.

Thankfully post-Chosen fic can be used to tackle the issues raised at the end of the show. Which is good. :)

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Since people are discussing it anyway... my thoughts on S8!Buffy...

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