elisi | Since people are discussing it anyway... my thoughts on S8!Buffy...

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Since people are discussing it anyway... my thoughts on S8!Buffy...

OK this? Is *hugely* subjective. And somewhat tongue-in-cheek. If you love S8!Buffy maybe you should just stay clear... (I'm off to spend the evening snuggled up to Darcy, and then I'm going to bed. Might not answer comments, OK?)

Simply put - I don’t like that castle. Thinking about it a bit, it occurred to me that Voll might be easier to understand that it would at first appear. He’s up against an organisation that:

- Has secret headquarters in remote parts of the world.
- Uses helicopters and various high tech equipment for (secret) missions.
- Has a charimsatic leader (with a few doubles to confuse assassins) and an army of loyal, superpowered girls.

Exchange ‘superpowered girls’ with ‘henchmen’ and you have a *classic* Evil Overlord scenario. I mean - seriously. Just think about it for a minute. Of course Buffy isn’t evil, she’s trying to rid the world of badness, but... Didn’t any number of Evil Overlords claim the same? Just look at Jasmine.

The thing is, I just really, really don’t like the fact that she’s stuck in that castle. Has anyone in the entire comic so far interacted with a person who isn’t a Slayer, Scoobie or demon (except for Underground!Buffy talking to her friends before being called)? Joss’ Slayers are saving the world, but they’re not a part of it.

What happened to the Buffy who didn’t just go slaying, she had to look good too (and no, asking fellow Slayers for fashion tips does *not* count!)? The Buffy who wanted to be prom queen? The Buffy who was always, always reaching out to the ordinary people around her? The Buffy who worried if she needed to buy more cereal? The Buffy who loved dancing?

It’s very simple - she’s in Rome, Italy. A country full of sunshine and warmth and LIFE! A place that is old, from whence the whole world was once ruled. (Interestingly, they got as far as Northern England and then didn’t go any further. Scotland was off the map of Ancient Rome...)

I like Buffy being in Rome - the girl from the New World in the ancient city (there's a lot of nice themes or metaphors wrapped up in that, but I don't have time to delve). Trying to get to grips with a new language, actually living amidst history (which is a subject she enjoys!), a place full of passion and vividness, wonderful food and a wholesome appetite for life, generally.

Because the thing is, in their last moments together, Spike told Buffy:

‘It’s your world up there.’

I don’t care if the line didn’t make it onto screen, this was still his message to her - an echo of his song in OMWF:

‘You have to go on living. So one of us is living.’

The Buffy who’s in Rome understood that. She might be the head of a thousand strong Slayer army, but she also has time for shopping and dancing and snuggling up with her gorgeous immortal lover, who might or might not be evil. She has a type, and she’s finally stopped worrying about it.

Compared to S8!Buffy, living in what is practically a convent, and lusting after/having nightmares about her best friend because he’s the only male within a 50 mile radius... well... I’m reminded of this (from Triangle):

BUFFY: So, um, a-about being a nun... you know, um, with the whole ... abjuring the company of men ... you know, how's that working for you? The... abjuring.
NUN: Um ... good.
BUFFY: Yeah, do you, do you have to be like super-religious?
NUN: Well, uh...
BUFFY: How's the food?

I dunno. It’s not that she can’t be miserable in Rome (or wherever), it’s that she’s so particularly cut off in that castle...

And, to quote shapinglight:

The castle is just silly and what's more, the Queen is getting jolly fed up of living in the gamekeeper's cottage. She wants those strange Americans to move out now.

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The Evil Overlord parallels really are there, aren't they? I'd also cite the fact that most of the girls don't talk as more support for the henchperson profile. Yikes.

I don't get the isolated castle thing either. It seems like a direct reversal of the open road of the end of the series, symbolically speaking - a dead end masoluem instead of infinite possiblity suggested by "Chosen" - and it's far more secret-society than the Initiative was, which at least allowed its members a cover identity of "normal" college students to interact with the residents of Sunnydale. Buffy has no contact anymore with anyone she's technically trying to help. It really is like she's joined a convent!

In my head, Buffy went to Rome. It was burned into my brain long before the comics, and still feels more like canon to me than the comics. I can't help it. Theoretically I was willing to consider the comics as canon, but it just never clicks. Canon is what I saw on screen.

I think Josh is doing a sloppy job at something he doesn't care about because he doesn't have other revenue streams at the moment.

My Buffy is in Italy kicking Spike's ass because he took so long to get to her. And they all lived (more or less) happily ever after.

IMHO S8 is just a money grab and an attempt to branch the franchise out to characters I don't care about.

But, overall, the comics as a whole don't feel (to me) as though they grew out of the show's season 7. They feel like a reboot. I think this is what contributes to the feel of "professional fanfic." In fanfic I'm used to an author stepping off into an AU at any given point in time in the BtVS world thereby not having to deal with points in canon that conflict. They don't matter in this particular world.

Joss has retconned not only Rome but Warren, Amy, etc. It feels like a fanfic reboot. Which is valid enough, I suppose, but it doesn't feel like it organically grew from where Season 7 left off. It doesn't feel like a canonical Season 8 to me. It feels like Joss's AU post, oh, I don't know. Where did he jump off canon anyway? With Warren?

The thing is, I just really, really don’t like the fact that she’s stuck in that castle.

No, I don't either and if Buffy had known that was where her future was going to take she sure as hell wouldn't have been smiling at the end of Chosen. I presume it's a metaphor for her being walled off or an allusion to Sleeping Beauty or something, but at the moment it's really not working for me though I live in hope that perhaps we're not supposed to see it as a good place for her to be.

Trying to get to grips with a new language, actually living amidst history (which is a subject she enjoys!), a place full of passion and vividness, wonderful food and a wholesome appetite for life, generally.

Very well put. In my head that's where Buffy still is!

But, overall, the comics as a whole don't feel (to me) as though they grew out of the show's season 7. They feel like a reboot.

*nods* Either that or a continuation of some unseen season 7 1/2, in which all the stuff happened that landed them in that castle (and Faith in Cleveland, and Willow in whereverthehellshe'sbeen, etc.)

It feels like Joss's AU post, oh, I don't know. Where did he jump off canon anyway? With Warren?

I guess, which means that everything after 6.20 is slightly different in the comicsverse. (Or, unless we see some development of Faith in the next issue that shows that she actually remembers reforming, it could be argued to be AU past "Five By Five".)

I'm willing to accept that the whole Evil Overlord thing might be meant to be taken ironically (ie. General Voll will turn out to be a villain like Holtz, who sort of has a point). However, I don't like the castle and the isolation it symbolises either. Plus - midges!

Also, it's the Queen. She says 'ite', not 'out.' It's a thing.

it doesn't feel like it organically grew from where Season 7 left off. It doesn't feel like a canonical Season 8 to me.

I agree. There's little to no connection to where the show itself seemed to be pointing in its final chapters, and the further retcons of Season 6 just start to seem like there was never a point to any of it that couldn't be overturned later if Joss felt like it; it's like he's doing some kind of remix. (And I've gotta say, I can't shake the feeling that it's only because of Joss's authorship that anyone is taking any of this seriously, much less giving it analysis headspace - any other writer, and fans would be scoffing, and pointing out how far off from canon it seems.)

Exchange ‘superpowered girls’ with ‘henchmen’ and you have a *classic* Evil Overlord scenario. I mean - seriously. Just think about it for a minute. Of course Buffy isn’t evil, she’s trying to rid the world of badness, but... Didn’t any number of Evil Overlords claim the same? Just look at Jasmine.

Exactly. To me, this is the good thing about s8; that IS a pretty strong arc (potentially). It's obvious that Voll (whom, I suppose, our heroes were sporting enough to leave behind with Ethan's dead body when they left the base rather than, say, kidnap him to get some more information) has done his homework and knows what he's/they're up against. The interesting thing is that Buffy might theoretically be on the path to becoming an evil overlord and not even know it (insert quote from LoTR, Galadriel refusing the ring, "everyone would love me and despair" and all that) - "Buffy, you ARE the dark".

So I really do believe we're not meant to think that castle is a good thing, for exactly the reasons you outline. Only thing is... we don't know why they would have thought it is a good thing to begin with. After following them for seven years, suddenly we're missing vital backstory. I'm all for gradual reveals in storytelling, but...

sing it sister.

so much truth in just one post.

So I really do believe we're not meant to think that castle is a good thing, for exactly the reasons you outline. Only thing is... we don't know why they would have thought it is a good thing to begin with.

I'm honestly not sure that we are meant to see the castle as a bad thing - the past of the series and a whopping lot of genre material would definitely suggest that, but after all the other reversals, how can we be sure? Maybe this is the new world order, and we're meant to think it makes sense, just because it's a "clever" gender-reversal of a Sgt. Rock comic, or who knows? I'd love to see the scenario outlined above, where Buffy had to face her own Galadriel-like challenge, but with so much of the connective tissue of the story missing, I don't really know if that's where things are headed. And, like you said, why did anyone think this was a good plan? Because Slayers holing up in the equivalent of Dracula's castle seemed what, poetic?

A quick addendum in case that last post sounded too cranky: I'm just grumbling about the comic, it's not directed at you at all. All your observations are great. (Did they really leave the general behind, or imply as much, by not showing him prisoner or whatever? Gah.)

Interestingly, they got as far as Northern England and then didn’t go any further. Scotland was off the map of Ancient Rome...

Trust Buffy to place herself outwith the ken of Empires, the girl’s a rebel at heart. People seem to keep missing the point that while Slayer.org is isolated within that org Buffy is closer to her friends and her colleagues/sisters/protégés than she has been since she coming back from the dead. Her world is made up of people not shopping malls and ancient monuments and Slayers are people too. People she works with people she’s helping people helping one another, she’s finally moved on from that lone martyr complex. Yes it’s a problem that she’s so little contact with anyone not in the biz and one with great potential for future conflict. I think what we’re seeing with the castle is a metaphor not for isolation but for the kind of 24/7 vocational focus people have when they’re lucky enough to find a career that suits them.

Because the thing is, in their last moments together, Spike told Buffy:
‘It’s your world up there.’
I don’t care if the line didn’t make it onto screen, this was still his message to her - an echo of his song in OMWF:
‘You have to go on living. So one of us is living.’

I always found that last line of Spike’s song revealingly creepy- she has to go on living for his sake, it’s what he needs. That aside is this the real root of all your complaints that Buffy isn’t doing what Spike told her to do? She’s living a life that has nothing to do with her romantic type and which neither confirms or denies what that type is?

Oh, no worries at all.

I really don't see Joss pushing this into some black and white "almighty Slayers good, military bad" - so much about it is so ambivalent, we see Buffy brood a little too much, a few too many self-doubting prophetic dreams for her to be completely on the right track. Whatever Joss may be, he's not a Nietzschean; any characters of either sex who have tried to argue that might makes right have always lost in the Jossverse - and what Buffy and Willow did was to give might to a LOT of people. So yes, I *do* believe we're supposed to have doubts about where they are and where they're headed; the arc doesn't work at all unless SOME of what Voll says actually rings true (as someone pointed out, his speech is eerily reminiscent of Mal's "they believe they can make humanity better" speech in Serenity). The castle isn't in itself a BAD thing or a GOOD thing - it's all still very much in the balance, all in the choices they make (see 8.05). But yeah... the castle Dracula reference is a good one, and as previously made choices go, it makes little sense.

(Did they really leave the general behind, or imply as much, by not showing him prisoner or whatever? Gah.)

Since Buffy and Xander obviously don't know anything more in 8.06 than they did after 8.04, that would be my guess. If they had brought him back to Scotland, surely they would have been able to squeeze something out of him?

Thanks. Glad I didn't come off too obnoxious. : )

any characters of either sex who have tried to argue that might makes right have always lost in the Jossverse - and what Buffy and Willow did was to give might to a LOT of people.

Hm, those who argue it maybe - and has Buffy made that argument? - but overall there are a number of mixed messages about power use in the Buffyverse that give me pause in terms of an overall philosophy. There seems to be a core idea that people who seek power aren't really worthy to wield it, thus the "Chosen One" being a gig that the girl doesn't sign up for... except now, if the girls in "Chosen" did indeed make that choice, then... okay now? Or maybe not? And then there's Willow, who acquired her power through long study and hard work, but because she sought power instead of it being bequeathed on her from an outside source... bad? But then okay again, as long as she doesn't get too above herself about it? (On that note, there's some very odd undercurrents about leadership in the series, too - the part in "Empty Places" which sort of jeered at the idea of the model U.N. really creeped me out. In general, I'd assign a lot of this to just a general dislike for characters who come off as bossy... except when Buffy comes off that way, which seems okay.)

I do hope you're right that there's a real critique coming. Otherwise, I'm really at a loss. I'm not really a Firefly watcher, so I have to trust your assessment there.

Since Buffy and Xander obviously don't know anything more in 8.06 than they did after 8.04, that would be my guess. If they had brought him back to Scotland, surely they would have been able to squeeze something out of him?

*holds head* And all it would've taken is one panel showing the guy escaping.

And, like you said, why did anyone think this was a good plan?

At it's heart, I think that's the problem with the comics. Sure the castle can be seen as allegorical, but the thing is that it's already been done in the series and actually openly acknowledged by the characters. Isolationism=Bad. Like much of the comics, it seems like we're supposed to forget that the characters already know that.

They really seem like a retread of old storylines, just "remixed" as was said upthread. Harmless enough, I guess, but there's a devaluation of the series going to do it. Buffy and the gang know all good and well that things aren't black and white; their experiences with Faith, Spike, Warren and even Andrew attest to that. They don't need a Big Bad to point it out. While Joss is retconing at will with plot points, he also seems to be removing the character progression of the series for the last few years.

Buffy and the gang know all good and well that things aren't black and white; their experiences with Faith, Spike, Warren and even Andrew attest to that. They don't need a Big Bad to point it out.

Nail, meet head! Exactly. And y'know, this is the sort of thing that BtVS used to deal with all the time, in that Scream sense of characters wandering off alone to a dark garages when there's a killer on the loose, but you were meant to roll your eyes at those people; the Scoobies were the smart ones, because they knew better. And yet the comic plot seems to hang overmuch on the reverse of that, on what Our Herores don't know, and it's stuff that shouldn't be a surprise. It's as if we're suppose to continually reset them in our minds to a sort of callow teenage ignorance, and that bugs me. We don't see them apply what they should've learned often enough.

It's as if we're suppose to continually reset them in our minds to a sort of callow teenage ignorance, and that bugs me.

Me, too. And you know what? I want to say that they're being written in S3 personas, but they weren't even so naive back then. I mean Buffy basically states that she's aware of all the complexities in her speech to Xander and Dawn in S6. The other thing that gets me--and this is absolutely subjective--is how the characters don't have much in the way of individualism. They come off as different facets of an abstract singular character 'Scoobies'. Personally, I LOVED that latter years when they were commonly at odds with each other. When you think of Buffy in S3, you think of the other characters; when you think of Buffy in S6, you think of Buffy. That probably didn't make sense.

Anyway, the characters are guesting in their own comic book. Remember how when XXXX would appear on Angel or vice versa and just be completely out of character and WTFable? That's what this feels like.

What happened to the Buffy who didn’t just go slaying, she had to look good too (and no, asking fellow Slayers for fashion tips does *not* count!)? The Buffy who wanted to be prom queen? The Buffy who was always, always reaching out to the ordinary people around her?

I kind of feel like that Buffy went away as of "Chosen." Before the final episode Buffy often had to reach out to "ordinary people" for help, as in "Anne" or the graduation battle that ended Season 3 or the awesome display of Scoobie teamwork in "The Gift." Even in the final battle with Adam, Buffy draws on the non-Slayer abilities of her closest friends. But once she has an army of Buffy clones at her disposal, she doesn't really need the help of normal folks anymore.

Actually, I think "Chosen" itself served as a somewhat absurd demonstration of this. Not only is the final battle fought without the help of Giles's wisdom or Xander's construction equipment or Anya's magic gadgets, but the entire cast are put to work hacking and slashing in classic Slayer style--even Anya and Andrew and Dawn and one-eyed Xander pick up swords and start dueling Bringers and Ubervamps! At the time I just put it down to creative exhaustion and assumed that the writers couldn't be bothered coming up with a more plausible way for the Scoobies to contribute to the fight. But in hindsight, it could also be an early indicator that Buffy was no longer going to rely on ordinary human abilities for backup.

Since I didn't like "Chosen," this doesn't make me feel any better about the comics. But on the other hand, the Season 8 setup doesn't strike me as that big a departure from the Season 7 finale.

This is really an issue that deserves a very long meta (

stormwreath has written a few on the subject) and it's really late over here, but as far as I can tell, the question isn't so much about how you come about power but how you use it. Willow got smacked down hard by karma, not because she was powerful but because she didn't use that power responsibly (and, indeed, has trouble with the concept as far back as in s1). The same would apply to Faith, who got her powers the exact same way Buffy did. Joss in on record as saying that Angel's "if nothing we do matters, all that matters is what we do" speech is his own philosophy; his ethical perspective is on actions, not consequences. Heroes or champions or whatever you want to call them are people who do the right thing regardless, not the ones who are most powerful. The people who live as if the ends justify the means - Wesley, Willow, to a lesser extent Giles in s7, and obviously most villains - invariably get in trouble. So the question is, what sort of decision was that spell in "Chosen"? Was it the right thing to do, or simply the best weapon to win a war with, which they are now paying the cost for... or both, or neither? I'm rambling. Sorry.

*holds head* And all it would've taken is one panel showing the guy escaping.

And another thing that puzzles me - why is Voll talking in 8.04, anyway? If he truly believes his own spiel, why is he showing his hand? I thought soldiers were trained to only reveal name and rank; instead, he immediately tells them everything.

I mean Buffy basically states that she's aware of all the complexities in her speech to Xander and Dawn in S6.

Which speech are you thinking of? For some reason, I'm blanking. "Villains"?

The other thing that gets me--and this is absolutely subjective--is how the characters don't have much in the way of individualism. They come off as different facets of an abstract singular character 'Scoobies'.

That's a good point, especially in the early years, when they all spoke the special Jossian joke-speak. It was a good approximation of the way teeangers tend to carbon-copy each other, and it did make sense that they'd grow apart in later years, and stop sounding (and thinking) so much alike.

When you think of Buffy in S3, you think of the other characters; when you think of Buffy in S6, you think of Buffy. That probably didn't make sense.

I think I get it - the early seasons were much more about the ensemble. The later ones focused more on Buffy alone, and there was far less of a group dynamic. Part of that would be because Buffy's activities weren't opened up to the group opinion in the later years like they were in the previous ones, like the way her relationship with Spike was conducted mostly off the table as far as the Scoobies were concerned, even in S7, very different from her relationship with Angel.

Remember how when XXXX would appear on Angel or vice versa and just be completely out of character and WTFable? That's what this feels like.

Yeah, I'm with you on that. I remember being very taken aback by Spike's appearance in "In the Dark," because that was the first time he'd been presented as dumb in terms of planning instead of just impatient; that's kind of what I feel like we're getting here. In order for the plot to work, the characters have to be changed.

as far as I can tell, the question isn't so much about how you come about power but how you use it.

I'd agree this is one of those long-meta issues, and as much I'd love to agree that it's all about the use of power, in all honesty, I don't think the series is really that consistent on the subject. I'd have to read some of the essays in question to respond to specific points, but especially the later seasons seemed very keen on graying things up to the point where I had a hard time telling if Joss really does have a weakness for authoritarianism, or whether it just looks like it. But, yeah, that's a discussion for another day.

So the question is, what sort of decision was that spell in "Chosen"? Was it the right thing to do, or simply the best weapon to win a war with, which they are now paying the cost for... or both, or neither? I'm rambling. Sorry.

No, really, that IS the big question, and I'd love to see it addressed, I do find it kind of odd that it's taking so long to get around to that point, though - you'd think that establishing whether the heroes are, in actuality, heroic or heading down a tragically wrong path would be something you'd want to get on the table quickly.

And another thing that puzzles me - why is Voll talking in 8.04, anyway? If he truly believes his own spiel, why is he showing his hand? I thought soldiers were trained to only reveal name and rank; instead, he immediately tells them everything.

It's a bit serial villain, isn't it? As a stylistic device, this kind of thing was clever and cheeky on demons or W&H employees of the I'm-evil-ask-me-how! variety, but coming from a guy who sees himself as the good one, much less a professional solider? Doesn't make sense. There's a part of me that almost wants to call dream sequence on the whole thing, since there are so many little spots like that, of the kind of illogic that would work best in a dream.

At the time I just put it down to creative exhaustion and assumed that the writers couldn't be bothered coming up with a more plausible way for the Scoobies to contribute to the fight. But in hindsight, it could also be an early indicator that Buffy was no longer going to rely on ordinary human abilities for backup.

You know, that's a solid point. So you could say that S8 is following up on the actual intended meaning of the ending of BtVS, of Buffy going into her future as leader of a superpowered army, and that viewers who interpreted the ending to mean that she was free to have a normal life were just way off target. I suppose that's the problem with closing on an ambigious, make-of-it-what-you-will note.

I'm blanking. "Villains"

Yeah, that's the one. It's not an exact parallel to what we're talking about, but exhibits that the characters actually had brains and could discern things without it being spelled out. There are many examples in the series proper, of course, probably better ones, but that's the one that popped in my head first.

It was a good approximation of the way teeangers tend to carbon-copy each other, and it did make sense that they'd grow apart in later years, and stop sounding (and thinking) so much alike.

Indeed. And to me, that seems to be lost here, like he's trying to go back to that dynamic when the series was most popular. Everyone's happy with each other (save for Buffy/Dawn) and the speech patterns seem to reflect that.

Me, I'm a Buffy fan, first and foremost. I, uh, don't care about the rest of them outside that and would prefer things to focus on her more than the group. That's a personal thing, but, well, I can't say that I feel it's out of line in Buffy, the Vampire Slayer.

In order for the plot to work, the characters have to be changed.

Uh huh. Sad. :( Very sad, because there was SO much opportunity there.

The trouble I have is that I've lost all confidence in my ability to interpret what Joss is trying to say. I still don't understand what I'm supposed to take away from Buffy's arc in the last two seasons. (I mean, I take stuff from it, but I'm pretty sure that it's not what Joss wants me to take.) So I can't trust the story or Joss, because I no longer feel that I understand what's important to him as a storyteller, or why it's important.

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Since people are discussing it anyway... my thoughts on S8!Buffy...

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