Since people are discussing it anyway... my thoughts on S8!Buffy...

[elisi]

OK this? Is *hugely* subjective. And somewhat tongue-in-cheek. If you love S8!Buffy maybe you should just stay clear... (I'm off to spend the evening snuggled up to Darcy, and then I'm going to bed. Might not answer comments, OK?)

Simply put - I don’t like that castle. Thinking about it a bit, it occurred to me that Voll might be easier to understand that it would at first appear. He’s up against an organisation that:

- Has secret headquarters in remote parts of the world.
- Uses helicopters and various high tech equipment for (secret) missions.
- Has a charimsatic leader (with a few doubles to confuse assassins) and an army of loyal, superpowered girls.

Exchange ‘superpowered girls’ with ‘henchmen’ and you have a *classic* Evil Overlord scenario. I mean - seriously. Just think about it for a minute. Of course Buffy isn’t evil, she’s trying to rid the world of badness, but... Didn’t any number of Evil Overlords claim the same? Just look at Jasmine.

The thing is, I just really, really don’t like the fact that she’s stuck in that castle. Has anyone in the entire comic so far interacted with a person who isn’t a Slayer, Scoobie or demon (except for Underground!Buffy talking to her friends before being called)? Joss’ Slayers are saving the world, but they’re not a part of it.

What happened to the Buffy who didn’t just go slaying, she had to look good too (and no, asking fellow Slayers for fashion tips does *not* count!)? The Buffy who wanted to be prom queen? The Buffy who was always, always reaching out to the ordinary people around her? The Buffy who worried if she needed to buy more cereal? The Buffy who loved dancing?

It’s very simple - she’s in Rome, Italy. A country full of sunshine and warmth and LIFE! A place that is old, from whence the whole world was once ruled. (Interestingly, they got as far as Northern England and then didn’t go any further. Scotland was off the map of Ancient Rome...)

I like Buffy being in Rome - the girl from the New World in the ancient city (there's a lot of nice themes or metaphors wrapped up in that, but I don't have time to delve). Trying to get to grips with a new language, actually living amidst history (which is a subject she enjoys!), a place full of passion and vividness, wonderful food and a wholesome appetite for life, generally.

Because the thing is, in their last moments together, Spike told Buffy:

‘It’s your world up there.’

I don’t care if the line didn’t make it onto screen, this was still his message to her - an echo of his song in OMWF:

‘You have to go on living. So one of us is living.’

The Buffy who’s in Rome understood that. She might be the head of a thousand strong Slayer army, but she also has time for shopping and dancing and snuggling up with her gorgeous immortal lover, who might or might not be evil. She has a type, and she’s finally stopped worrying about it.

Compared to S8!Buffy, living in what is practically a convent, and lusting after/having nightmares about her best friend because he’s the only male within a 50 mile radius... well... I’m reminded of this (from Triangle):

BUFFY: So, um, a-about being a nun... you know, um, with the whole ... abjuring the company of men ... you know, how's that working for you? The... abjuring.
NUN: Um ... good.
BUFFY: Yeah, do you, do you have to be like super-religious?
NUN: Well, uh...
BUFFY: How's the food?

I dunno. It’s not that she can’t be miserable in Rome (or wherever), it’s that she’s so particularly cut off in that castle...

And, to quote shapinglight:

The castle is just silly and what's more, the Queen is getting jolly fed up of living in the gamekeeper's cottage. She wants those strange Americans to move out now.

Comments

[toysdream.livejournal.com]

What happened to the Buffy who didn’t just go slaying, she had to look good too (and no, asking fellow Slayers for fashion tips does *not* count!)? The Buffy who wanted to be prom queen? The Buffy who was always, always reaching out to the ordinary people around her?

I kind of feel like that Buffy went away as of "Chosen." Before the final episode Buffy often had to reach out to "ordinary people" for help, as in "Anne" or the graduation battle that ended Season 3 or the awesome display of Scoobie teamwork in "The Gift." Even in the final battle with Adam, Buffy draws on the non-Slayer abilities of her closest friends. But once she has an army of Buffy clones at her disposal, she doesn't really need the help of normal folks anymore.

Actually, I think "Chosen" itself served as a somewhat absurd demonstration of this. Not only is the final battle fought without the help of Giles's wisdom or Xander's construction equipment or Anya's magic gadgets, but the entire cast are put to work hacking and slashing in classic Slayer style--even Anya and Andrew and Dawn and one-eyed Xander pick up swords and start dueling Bringers and Ubervamps! At the time I just put it down to creative exhaustion and assumed that the writers couldn't be bothered coming up with a more plausible way for the Scoobies to contribute to the fight. But in hindsight, it could also be an early indicator that Buffy was no longer going to rely on ordinary human abilities for backup.

Since I didn't like "Chosen," this doesn't make me feel any better about the comics. But on the other hand, the Season 8 setup doesn't strike me as that big a departure from the Season 7 finale.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

At the time I just put it down to creative exhaustion and assumed that the writers couldn't be bothered coming up with a more plausible way for the Scoobies to contribute to the fight. But in hindsight, it could also be an early indicator that Buffy was no longer going to rely on ordinary human abilities for backup.

You know, that's a solid point. So you could say that S8 is following up on the actual intended meaning of the ending of BtVS, of Buffy going into her future as leader of a superpowered army, and that viewers who interpreted the ending to mean that she was free to have a normal life were just way off target. I suppose that's the problem with closing on an ambigious, make-of-it-what-you-will note.

[(Anonymous)]

So you could say that S8 is following up on the actual intended meaning of the ending of BtVS, of Buffy going into her future as leader of a superpowered army, and that viewers who interpreted the ending to mean that she was free to have a normal life were just way off target.

Yep, that does seem to be the case. Looking back on it, I suppose turning Buffy into the leader of a Slayer army pretty much ruled out the "normal life" thing. Perhaps she could have taken the chance to retire from monster-slaying and let the newbies handle it on their own, but "Chosen" ends with Buffy and friends vowing to find and train the new Slayers, so they've already made their choice by the time the episode ends. Rather than retiring, they're more committed than ever to their abnormal lives.

Which, now that I think about it, is kind of an odd way to end the series. If they'd wrapped up Season 7 without the Slayer activation spell, then the destruction of the Hellmouth would have marked the end of Buffy's responsibilities. Instead, she's taken on a new set of duties that remove her even more from normal human society. In that case, the scenario of Season 8 seems like an inevitable next step.

[toysdream.livejournal.com]

Er, that's me posting above. :-)

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Actually, I think "Chosen" itself served as a somewhat absurd demonstration of this. Not only is the final battle fought without the help of Giles's wisdom or Xander's construction equipment or Anya's magic gadgets, but the entire cast are put to work hacking and slashing in classic Slayer style--even Anya and Andrew and Dawn and one-eyed Xander pick up swords and start dueling Bringers and Ubervamps! At the time I just put it down to creative exhaustion and assumed that the writers couldn't be bothered coming up with a more plausible way for the Scoobies to contribute to the fight. But in hindsight, it could also be an early indicator that Buffy was no longer going to rely on ordinary human abilities for backup.



Personally I always found the everyone contributes their own special something to the victory in The Gift rather contrived. The same point is made rather more subtly in Chosen. Giles and Dawn contributed essential research on the Slayer spell, Anya and Xander rallied the troops bringing to the point when they were prepared to listen to Buffy’s plan. But in any case aren’t you creating an unnecessary dichotomy between ‘superpowered’ and normal by suggesting that if you can’t be special at something you might as well not even attempt it. While Buffy and the Slayers were able to hold back most of the Turok Han army for long enough for the amulet to scrub its bubbles Anya, and co stopped the few the vamps that slipped through that net and would have escaped the channelled sunlight from escaping and breeding. Conversely while Buffy and the Slayers have superpowers they also have ‘normal’ human abilities (and flaws), being a freak doesn’t make you less human. Her lifestyle in S8 may be less mainstream but does that necessarily invalidate it?

[toysdream.livejournal.com]

Personally I always found the everyone contributes their own special something to the victory in The Gift rather contrived. The same point is made rather more subtly in Chosen.

I really liked that about "The Gift." As for "contrived," to me, Xander using construction equipment to fight evil is much more sensible than giving him a sword and sending him to fight demons. I suppose these are both ways of showing that ordinary folks can contribute to the fight against evil, but personally I found the "Chosen" approach a bit ridiculous. Perhaps that's a matter of taste.

But in any case aren’t you creating an unnecessary dichotomy between ‘superpowered’ and normal by suggesting that if you can’t be special at something you might as well not even attempt it.

I seem to recall that the distinction between "normal" and "super" might have been mentioned once or twice in the show itself, too.

[rahirah]

I still think part of it was writer burnout. Joss said he had writer's block something awful while penning the ep, and I believe it - it reads like something squeezed out under duress.

[elisi]

But once she has an army of Buffy clones at her disposal, she doesn't really need the help of normal folks anymore.
Hmmm. Well I can see what you're saying, but the point is, Buffy and her 30-odd-Slayers *wouldn't* have won without the amulet. It was part of the plan - just like blowing up snake!Mayor was part of the plan in Graduation day.

Also she *couldn't* have done the spell without Willow (Giles helped her [Willow] research, I'm sure), and she originally sent Xander away with Dawn. Anya and Andrew were only there to 'fight the good fight in any way they could, because they could'.

But then I adore Chosen. (This is the thing - if I love something I'll overlook flaws like you wouldn't believe.)

[toysdream.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Well I can see what you're saying, but the point is, Buffy and her 30-odd-Slayers *wouldn't* have won without the amulet.

True, but that amulet could only be used by a vampire champion with a soul, which doesn't exactly fall under the category of "normal folks." On the other hand, at least Spike and Willow were given something to do other than swordfighting. So there's still a role for brains and heart, even if normal people are now superfluous.

Also she *couldn't* have done the spell without Willow (Giles helped her [Willow] research, I'm sure), and she originally sent Xander away with Dawn. Anya and Andrew were only there to 'fight the good fight in any way they could, because they could'.

I'm not sure if Giles contributed anything to the spell other than saying it was "bloody brilliant" or somesuch. :-) And yes, Buffy didn't intend for Xander and Dawn to be there at all, but it's still striking that in "Chosen" - unlike every previous season finale - the non-superpowered Scoobies are used as sword-swinging fighters instead of helping via their brains, heart, CPR skills, construction equipment, or inspiration crayon-themed speeches.

Again, the big exception here is Spike. Normally it's Xander who gets to subvert gender roles by wielding the power of love and devotion while Buffy beats people up, but this time Spike gets to save the world with his fiery heart beam, and Xander is just another sword-toting grunt. (I think Season 8 is actually an improvement over "Chosen" in terms of finding a useful role for Xander.)

But then I adore Chosen. (This is the thing - if I love something I'll overlook flaws like you wouldn't believe.)

I know, and I think that's an admirable coping mechanism. :-) Rather than trying to beat up on "Chosen," I guess I'm actually trying to defend the premise of Season 8 by suggesting that it's a logical continuation from the TV finale. Unlike most of the previous season finales, "Chosen" doesn't suggest that normal humans are much use in the fight against evil, and by giving Buffy a whole new tribe of superpowered sisters it seems to be pulling her away from the human world rather than returning her to it.

[elisi]

I know, and I think that's an admirable coping mechanism. :-)
Heh. But take Lorne in 'Asylum' - it makes no eartly sense for him to be in Vegas during S5, but I don't care - the story is too good.

Rather than trying to beat up on "Chosen," I guess I'm actually trying to defend the premise of Season 8 by suggesting that it's a logical continuation from the TV finale.
Oh I get that. And most post-Chosen fics have Buffy working with all the new Slayers. That's great, but there's always the possibility of her being able to quit. S8 seems to have tied her down as 'not normal' far more than she was before.

(The good thing about the comics is that they've helped me with my fic - f.ex. I know what to do with *my* Faith. *g*