Since people are discussing it anyway... my thoughts on S8!Buffy...

[elisi]

OK this? Is *hugely* subjective. And somewhat tongue-in-cheek. If you love S8!Buffy maybe you should just stay clear... (I'm off to spend the evening snuggled up to Darcy, and then I'm going to bed. Might not answer comments, OK?)

Simply put - I don’t like that castle. Thinking about it a bit, it occurred to me that Voll might be easier to understand that it would at first appear. He’s up against an organisation that:

- Has secret headquarters in remote parts of the world.
- Uses helicopters and various high tech equipment for (secret) missions.
- Has a charimsatic leader (with a few doubles to confuse assassins) and an army of loyal, superpowered girls.

Exchange ‘superpowered girls’ with ‘henchmen’ and you have a *classic* Evil Overlord scenario. I mean - seriously. Just think about it for a minute. Of course Buffy isn’t evil, she’s trying to rid the world of badness, but... Didn’t any number of Evil Overlords claim the same? Just look at Jasmine.

The thing is, I just really, really don’t like the fact that she’s stuck in that castle. Has anyone in the entire comic so far interacted with a person who isn’t a Slayer, Scoobie or demon (except for Underground!Buffy talking to her friends before being called)? Joss’ Slayers are saving the world, but they’re not a part of it.

What happened to the Buffy who didn’t just go slaying, she had to look good too (and no, asking fellow Slayers for fashion tips does *not* count!)? The Buffy who wanted to be prom queen? The Buffy who was always, always reaching out to the ordinary people around her? The Buffy who worried if she needed to buy more cereal? The Buffy who loved dancing?

It’s very simple - she’s in Rome, Italy. A country full of sunshine and warmth and LIFE! A place that is old, from whence the whole world was once ruled. (Interestingly, they got as far as Northern England and then didn’t go any further. Scotland was off the map of Ancient Rome...)

I like Buffy being in Rome - the girl from the New World in the ancient city (there's a lot of nice themes or metaphors wrapped up in that, but I don't have time to delve). Trying to get to grips with a new language, actually living amidst history (which is a subject she enjoys!), a place full of passion and vividness, wonderful food and a wholesome appetite for life, generally.

Because the thing is, in their last moments together, Spike told Buffy:

‘It’s your world up there.’

I don’t care if the line didn’t make it onto screen, this was still his message to her - an echo of his song in OMWF:

‘You have to go on living. So one of us is living.’

The Buffy who’s in Rome understood that. She might be the head of a thousand strong Slayer army, but she also has time for shopping and dancing and snuggling up with her gorgeous immortal lover, who might or might not be evil. She has a type, and she’s finally stopped worrying about it.

Compared to S8!Buffy, living in what is practically a convent, and lusting after/having nightmares about her best friend because he’s the only male within a 50 mile radius... well... I’m reminded of this (from Triangle):

BUFFY: So, um, a-about being a nun... you know, um, with the whole ... abjuring the company of men ... you know, how's that working for you? The... abjuring.
NUN: Um ... good.
BUFFY: Yeah, do you, do you have to be like super-religious?
NUN: Well, uh...
BUFFY: How's the food?

I dunno. It’s not that she can’t be miserable in Rome (or wherever), it’s that she’s so particularly cut off in that castle...

And, to quote shapinglight:

The castle is just silly and what's more, the Queen is getting jolly fed up of living in the gamekeeper's cottage. She wants those strange Americans to move out now.

Comments

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Oh, no worries at all.

I really don't see Joss pushing this into some black and white "almighty Slayers good, military bad" - so much about it is so ambivalent, we see Buffy brood a little too much, a few too many self-doubting prophetic dreams for her to be completely on the right track. Whatever Joss may be, he's not a Nietzschean; any characters of either sex who have tried to argue that might makes right have always lost in the Jossverse - and what Buffy and Willow did was to give might to a LOT of people. So yes, I *do* believe we're supposed to have doubts about where they are and where they're headed; the arc doesn't work at all unless SOME of what Voll says actually rings true (as someone pointed out, his speech is eerily reminiscent of Mal's "they believe they can make humanity better" speech in Serenity). The castle isn't in itself a BAD thing or a GOOD thing - it's all still very much in the balance, all in the choices they make (see 8.05). But yeah... the castle Dracula reference is a good one, and as previously made choices go, it makes little sense.

(Did they really leave the general behind, or imply as much, by not showing him prisoner or whatever? Gah.)

Since Buffy and Xander obviously don't know anything more in 8.06 than they did after 8.04, that would be my guess. If they had brought him back to Scotland, surely they would have been able to squeeze something out of him?

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Thanks. Glad I didn't come off too obnoxious. : )

any characters of either sex who have tried to argue that might makes right have always lost in the Jossverse - and what Buffy and Willow did was to give might to a LOT of people.

Hm, those who argue it maybe - and has Buffy made that argument? - but overall there are a number of mixed messages about power use in the Buffyverse that give me pause in terms of an overall philosophy. There seems to be a core idea that people who seek power aren't really worthy to wield it, thus the "Chosen One" being a gig that the girl doesn't sign up for... except now, if the girls in "Chosen" did indeed make that choice, then... okay now? Or maybe not? And then there's Willow, who acquired her power through long study and hard work, but because she sought power instead of it being bequeathed on her from an outside source... bad? But then okay again, as long as she doesn't get too above herself about it? (On that note, there's some very odd undercurrents about leadership in the series, too - the part in "Empty Places" which sort of jeered at the idea of the model U.N. really creeped me out. In general, I'd assign a lot of this to just a general dislike for characters who come off as bossy... except when Buffy comes off that way, which seems okay.)

I do hope you're right that there's a real critique coming. Otherwise, I'm really at a loss. I'm not really a Firefly watcher, so I have to trust your assessment there.

Since Buffy and Xander obviously don't know anything more in 8.06 than they did after 8.04, that would be my guess. If they had brought him back to Scotland, surely they would have been able to squeeze something out of him?

*holds head* And all it would've taken is one panel showing the guy escaping.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

This is really an issue that deserves a very long meta (stormwreath has written a few on the subject) and it's really late over here, but as far as I can tell, the question isn't so much about how you come about power but how you use it. Willow got smacked down hard by karma, not because she was powerful but because she didn't use that power responsibly (and, indeed, has trouble with the concept as far back as in s1). The same would apply to Faith, who got her powers the exact same way Buffy did. Joss in on record as saying that Angel's "if nothing we do matters, all that matters is what we do" speech is his own philosophy; his ethical perspective is on actions, not consequences. Heroes or champions or whatever you want to call them are people who do the right thing regardless, not the ones who are most powerful. The people who live as if the ends justify the means - Wesley, Willow, to a lesser extent Giles in s7, and obviously most villains - invariably get in trouble. So the question is, what sort of decision was that spell in "Chosen"? Was it the right thing to do, or simply the best weapon to win a war with, which they are now paying the cost for... or both, or neither? I'm rambling. Sorry.

*holds head* And all it would've taken is one panel showing the guy escaping.

And another thing that puzzles me - why is Voll talking in 8.04, anyway? If he truly believes his own spiel, why is he showing his hand? I thought soldiers were trained to only reveal name and rank; instead, he immediately tells them everything.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

as far as I can tell, the question isn't so much about how you come about power but how you use it.

I'd agree this is one of those long-meta issues, and as much I'd love to agree that it's all about the use of power, in all honesty, I don't think the series is really that consistent on the subject. I'd have to read some of the essays in question to respond to specific points, but especially the later seasons seemed very keen on graying things up to the point where I had a hard time telling if Joss really does have a weakness for authoritarianism, or whether it just looks like it. But, yeah, that's a discussion for another day.

So the question is, what sort of decision was that spell in "Chosen"? Was it the right thing to do, or simply the best weapon to win a war with, which they are now paying the cost for... or both, or neither? I'm rambling. Sorry.

No, really, that IS the big question, and I'd love to see it addressed, I do find it kind of odd that it's taking so long to get around to that point, though - you'd think that establishing whether the heroes are, in actuality, heroic or heading down a tragically wrong path would be something you'd want to get on the table quickly.

And another thing that puzzles me - why is Voll talking in 8.04, anyway? If he truly believes his own spiel, why is he showing his hand? I thought soldiers were trained to only reveal name and rank; instead, he immediately tells them everything.

It's a bit serial villain, isn't it? As a stylistic device, this kind of thing was clever and cheeky on demons or W&H employees of the I'm-evil-ask-me-how! variety, but coming from a guy who sees himself as the good one, much less a professional solider? Doesn't make sense. There's a part of me that almost wants to call dream sequence on the whole thing, since there are so many little spots like that, of the kind of illogic that would work best in a dream.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

you'd think that establishing whether the heroes are, in actuality, heroic or heading down a tragically wrong path would be something you'd want to get on the table quickly.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there; if this is where it's going, then the story is basically a variation on "power corrupts" - and IMO, it's much more interesting to see how that happens than it would be to come in after it's happened. (There's been quite enough of "a lot of stuff happened that we're note telling you" in the comics already.) I don't want simple black/white hero/villain good/evil demarcations set up in the first paragraph; and I certainly wouldn't want it to start off with "Those people you thought were the heroes for 7 years? Yeah, they're now the bad guys. Deal with it." Them trying to figure out what side they're on (or what side they could potentially be on) is not the foundation of the story; it IS the story. It needs to be ambiguous, and it needs to be a gradual thing. It's just a pity that comics - five minutes of story a month - isn't exactly the best format for that kind of storytelling...

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Them trying to figure out what side they're on (or what side they could potentially be on) is not the foundation of the story; it IS the story. It needs to be ambiguous, and it needs to be a gradual thing. It's just a pity that comics - five minutes of story a month - isn't exactly the best format for that kind of storytelling...

That's kind of what I was thinking of, the awkwardness of the format for telling that sort of story. After all, S5 Angel was essentially about slow corruption, but as viewers we were reminded constantly that W&H was a Bad Place, and that the heroes were wrestling with some difficult compromises, even as they continued to try to be heroic. So far in the comic, the clues have been less direct - assuming that's what's being attempted - so it's more a story about reader perception, i.e., if it does turn out that the "heroes" are on the wrong path, then what does that say about me, if I'm defending their actions, because I'm convinced that they're "good" and so must be everything they do? It's a great question to be asking, especially in the current U.S. political climate, but meanwhile I guess it's up for the individual reader to make those calls. Which is kind of a weird place to put the readership in: either you're being set up for a bait-and-switch - the Slayers are really the bad guys, and you've been rooting for them! - or you can become increasingly disturbed and put off the book, which is more where I'm at. It's the sort of story that, I think, works better in graphic novel format, where you can read the whole thing in one go.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

as much I'd love to agree that it's all about the use of power, in all honesty, I don't think the series is really that consistent on the subject. I'd have to read some of the essays in question to respond to specific points, but especially the later seasons seemed very keen on graying things up to the point where I had a hard time telling if Joss really does have a weakness for authoritarianism, or whether it just looks like it.

A 'weakness for authoritarianism'?? The message I get from Buffy, pretty clearly, is this:

Power corrupts, power can be used for evil, people who seek power are often dangerous, yadda yadda yadda. BUT: power can also be used for good - and in fact, if the good guys have no power, then evil wins by default. "All that is required for the triumph of evil is for good [wo]men to do nothing."

Season 7 in particular ('Get It Done', 'Chosen') showed Buffy accepting the logic of this, taking on power for herself and sharing it with her allies. Season 8 is about showing the consequences of that decision.

I never thought Buffy was about simple moral lessons, about "people who do so-and-so always come to bad ends". It was a show that said "given these changes - the existence of supernatural evil and people with special powers - what would be the real-world results of these changes? How would people react: not in a clichéd storybook way, but how would real people react to having these abilities and knowing these facts?" In 'Chosen' Buffy and the Scoobies changed the world. Now they have to live in that world.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

I don't think Buffy is about simple moral lessons either, only that at times it does tend to slide into fictional moral logic at times, the stuff of dramatic convention. Such as, "torture works (if the good guys do it), although the truly stalwart can resist," etc. Moral choices are sometimes made very easy for the characters, because the bad guys will self-declare that they're Evil! (frex, Faith in S3). So there's gray, and that's good, and there's realism, and that's good too, but there's also a number of dramatic path-smootheners to the morality that don't really resemble real-world complexity, and at times I find the seesaw between the two a bit frustrating.

In case you're wondering, the authoritarianism I wonder at comes from the sudden shift in the final seasons of both BtVS and AtS to a story where a charismatic leader says, "we must do or die," and others are meant to follow without question. I raise my eyebrow.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't argue that sometimes the show's message and philosophy sometime got confused - but that's probably because it had dozens of writers over eight years. Even so - just because Faith calls herself evil doesn't mean that, say, Buffy's decision to go and kill her in 'Graduation Day' wasn't shown as unproblematic and easy.

sudden shift in the final seasons of both BtVS and AtS to a story where a charismatic leader says, "we must do or die," and others are meant to follow without question.

I'm afraid I didn't see that at all. When Buffy did try saying that, all her friends not only refused to obey but kicked her out of the house until she came up with a better plan! And the new plan specifically involved empowering other people and putting them at the same level as herself... and even so, she asked for input and consent rather than charging ahead with her plan.

Same for Angel - yes, he came up with a do and die plan, but he didn't expect his colleagues to follow without question - he asked for their help and even put the plan to a vote!

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Sorry to be absent for awhile there - I've been meaning to get back to you on this thread, because I think you've brought up something key here.

I'm afraid I didn't see that at all. When Buffy did try saying that, all her friends not only refused to obey but kicked her out of the house until she came up with a better plan! And the new plan specifically involved empowering other people and putting them at the same level as herself... and even so, she asked for input and consent rather than charging ahead with her plan.

This is something I've been struggling to find a way to describe since the series ended. I can see exactly what you mean here, and the story does include all these verbal cues about the Potentials having a choice, and asking for input, but... BUT...

Remember before, when I was talking about fictional logic? There's my problem. Buffy's new plan really isn't that different from her old one! Both rely on Buffy's gut instinct, and the real difference in the second case is her audience - after a brief flirtation with alternate leadership for which they were smacked down hard by the plot, they're now willing to listen, and apparently have few questions or complaints, which is how we're meant to tell it's a good plan. So Buffy's slightly more concillatory attitude and revised plan work because they're written to be successful, not because there's really been any huge sea change. Symbolically speaking, I get the gist of it, but I was expecting more.

And I had the same problem with Angel's plan - he puts it up to a vote after he's already set the plan in motion, but he also says, "I can't do it without you," which is pretty manipulative - but then I don't have a problem with seeing Angel as gray, but Buffy... that's more problematic for me.

[toysdream.livejournal.com]

Buffy's new plan really isn't that different from her old one!

My impression is that we simply don't have enough information to judge Buffy's plan (or lack thereof). A little while back, I spent some time poring over the details of Chosen with an eye to writing some "fill-in-the-blank" scenes describing how the plan came together, and it struck me as significant that when Buffy presents her idea to Giles and the Scoobies, Faith is standing next to her. The implication is that Buffy's already gone over this with Faith before presenting it to the rest of the class, and one imagines that she's also checked with Willow to make sure the magical element is actually possible. That suggests a fairly extensive planning process, rather than something Buffy just pulled out of thin air.

The problem is that, like most aspects of Chosen, all we have are implications and hints. It looks like Buffy's done some serious planning, it appears that the Scoobies have kissed and made up, it seems like she's consulting them all in an inclusive fashion, it's implied that there's an element of choice in the power-up spell... but all the details are hidden offscreen. This is one of those situations where a novelization (a proper novelization, not a copy-and-paste of the TV scripts) might have been rather helpful.

[elisi]

*jumps in v. quickly*

I can see what you're saying, but I just feel the need to point out that Buffy's Chosen plan is different from her Empty Places one - both in scope and in what she hopes to achieve.

In EP she wants to barge in to the vineyard, because she wants to get back whatever it is that Caleb has of hers. She works on instinct, and the others balk, because it is no different to her plan in Dirty Girls that got them killed, and they can't see a different outcome this time. The point being hat they're both right - Caleb *does* have something (something crucial no less), but the way to get it is not with a large force, but just one fighter by herself, scalpel-like.

The thing about Chosen is that it is Buffy finally doing what she vowed in 'Bring on the Night' - take the fight to the enemy and wiping it out. And she has now worked out how to do it. I get what you say about the whole thing being engineered to work, but that doesn't bother me. I like the way it all fits together, how everything comes full circle.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

I know... I think it's really one of those things where it either bugs you or it doesn't. I mean, at the time of "Bring on the Night," I was all "yeah, go Buffy!" but by the time of "Chosen," I felt like I hadn't seen ten episodes of preparation for that idea, just another spur of the moment plan thought up the night before. So... yeah, I get what it's meant to mean, and how it's meant to work, but for me the timing, and a lot of other things are just... off. But I do always enjoy reading your meta on the subject, because you manage to draw out more of what I wish I could see, without all the the reservations.

[elisi]

I don't have time for the reply I'd like to give, and also I need to know if you've read HP 7? (it illustrates the point I want to make! *g*)

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Voll is human and thus according to Buffy's philosophy subject to human laws. Even if he appears to have broken them himself, kidnapping him in order to force information out of him would be wrong. More pragmatically he's also a U.S. General and they're on his turf. His people are temporally incapacitated but if Willow's going to keep Buffy's promise to heal them, they're just two Slayers and a depowered witch against a recovering army against which they've lost the advantage of suprise. Best to get the hell out of there while they still can.

And another thing that puzzles me - why is Voll talking in 8.04, anyway? If he truly believes his own spiel, why is he showing his hand? I thought soldiers were trained to only reveal name and rank; instead, he immediately tells them everything.
Does he reveal anything about Twilight that Buffy hasn't already just found out by recognising his mark ie that it exists, that it's working against her and that he is a part of it. What he says acts like all good propaganda to make his opponent doubt her own cause and give the impression that his organisation encompasses the whole human race ie is potentially much bigger than in reality it may be.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Voll is human and thus according to Buffy's philosophy subject to human laws. Even if he appears to have broken them himself, kidnapping him in order to force information out of him would be wrong.

...and Buffy would never do that, obviously. Especially since she's never done anything like it in the past. ;-)


Does he reveal anything about Twilight that Buffy hasn't already just found out by recognising his mark ie that it exists, that it's working against her and that he is a part of it.

Yes, he most certainly does. So much so that he even corrects her when she misinterprets him and thinks this is some sort of "problem with strong women" thing. The whole "war with humanity" thing was completely new to Buffy here.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Sometimes Buffy does do the wrong thing usually when her loved ones are threatened. As when she set off to feed Faith to Angel or, as here, when the Dawn situation was on the verge of catatonia-inducing. Gregor, while human enough to trigger Spike's chip, wasn't American human or subject to any national jurisdiction in Buffy's dimension and had invaded her space rather than the other way round. All in all the alternatives are less obvious, the ethics more clear cut, questioning more practical and the whole issue less urgent since they'd got Willow back already in the Voll situation.

The whole "war with humanity" thing was completely new to Buffy here.
Yes and telling her that fits perfectly with the propaganda objectives I outlined. Being told her enemy is the entire human race gives Buffy nothing of any tactical utility. It just makes the target sound too big to be assailable and introduces morale-sapping doubts about whether she should be fighting it in the first place.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Gregor, while human enough to trigger Spike's chip, wasn't American human or subject to any national jurisdiction in Buffy's dimension

But of course he was, unless you're going to argue that in the Buffyverse, non-Americans are less human... US law doesn't just apply to US citizens, but anyone on US soil. Gregor's American accent aside, no matter what his nationality, if he runs around in California with a band of armed knights dancing whenever they're able trying to kill people, then he's either a criminal or an "enemy combattant" and in either case subject to US jurisdiction.

Much as Andrew was in s7, and it didn't stop them tying him up and interrogating him for several episodes (not that he seemed to mind, but still).

had invaded her space rather than the other way round

You mean unlike in s8, where Voll sends Amy into Buffy's *bedroom*, has a zombie army attack her castle, and then kidnaps Willow from Buffy's own basement?

Being told her enemy is the entire human race gives Buffy nothing of any tactical utility. It just makes the target sound too big to be assailable

Or, if Voll really thinks he's right about the Slayer's demon essence's motivation, backs them into a corner and encourages them to step up to the "Slay" stage a bit sooner. As opposed to keeping his agenda hidden until he has time to strike and let them think it's just some weird underground demon cabal.

[(Anonymous)]

*But of course he was, unless you're going to argue that in the Buffyverse, non-Americans are less human*
Legally human, in Jossverse it's like legally dead. Going to argue would be putting it a little too strongly, I just think whether inter*dimensional* travellers who are physically human enough to trigger a government funded detection chip but come from another dimension have the protection of inter*national* law is a grey area as far as Buffy would know. However, you're right the more significant differences between this situation and that of Gregor or Andrew are pragmatic. Kidnapping Voll who has a respectable and very public identiy would draw unwanted offcial attention to Buffy's activities than taking Andrew (escaped criminal) guestage or Gregor (as if the Knights would sue). Moreover Buffy is in a calmer and much less desperate state.

Or, if Voll really thinks he's right about the Slayer's demon essence's motivation, backs them into a corner and encourages them to step up to the "Slay" stage a bit sooner.
Which may be what he needs to really get humanity on his side as I think stormwreath has suggested.

As opposed to keeping his agenda hidden until he has time to strike and let them think it's just some weird underground demon cabal.
That cat's already out of the bag with Buffy now aware of Voll's involvement.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Remind me again - when are we told that the knights of Byzantium come from a different dimension and not just, say, Istanbul?

Kidnapping Voll who has a respectable and very public identiy would draw unwanted offcial attention to Buffy's activities

They've already got an entire military complex apparently focused solely on bringing them down. How much more official attention is there to get? And how do we know that Voll - in charge of a (presumably) secret military operation that is literally underground - has a very public identity?

Moreover Buffy is in a calmer and much less desperate state.

True. Which is an interesting reaction, to say the least, for someone who has just learned that the human race has declared war on her and everything she's ever fought for. You'd think she would at least be a *little* freaked.

That cat's already out of the bag with Buffy now aware of Voll's involvement.

My point exactly. Which is why I don't see why it's a good idea for Voll to let that cat out.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I imply it from Glory being on first name terms and from a not so accesible hell dimension herself until Ben's lifetime ago. Plus nobody dresses like that in Istanbul in our dimension. Also our dimension makes more sense than the dimension of Petrie's brain the knights emerged from.

You'd think she would at least be a *little* freaked.
I think she'd be sceptical without dismissing the claim out of hand. She's a big girl now and she got what she came for. Why risk taking a hostage who might either launch a thousand ships or be a trojan horse (as Amy proved to be).

My point exactly.
Are we talking about the same cat? I meant that assuming Buffy assumes Voll is human and know's he's part of Twilight (as indeed the original demon victims were) she knows it's not an exclusively demon cabal.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

The timeline of Glory is weird; we also know that the Key has existed - in our world - for centuries. So obviously something has gone on for quite some time, even if Glory's current incarnation is only 25 or so. She predates the written word, remember?

nobody dresses like that in Istanbul in our dimension

Not everyday, no. But then again, most people don't dress like Giles in England, either. ;-) I'm not saying the knnnnnnniggits of Byzantium aren't supremely silly, but with no canonical mention or indication whatsoever of them being anything but human (at least one of them was treated at a hospital, which doesn't normally cater to demons), and with a name that places them in a specific geographical spot very much of this world, I see no reason to assume they are anything but a secret (and very inefficient) society made up of humans.

She's a big girl now and she got what she came for.

She came for Willow, true, but found a lot more than that. She found a very threatening situation, and then... what? Left without bothering to find out more? Not saying it's unthinkable, just that it's pretty unwise. Remember Willow finding the books of ascension in "Choices"? If you find information that might save the world, you don't run without at least trying to find out more.

I meant that assuming Buffy assumes Voll is human and know's he's part of Twilight (as indeed the original demon victims were) she knows it's not an exclusively demon cabal.

Yes, that cat. First rule of covert ops: do not surrender crucial information. Before Buffy came there, she had no clue of who Twilight were and what their plans were. Now she knows what she's up against, she knows at least part of their agenda, she knows what kind of muscle they have, and she can start thinking about what sort of defensive and possibly offensive measures to take (as the preview of 8.07 shows). If Voll had kept his mouth shut, she'd still be in the dark. I fail to see how this is to Voll's advantage. The allies didn't take out ads in Le Monde to tell the Germans that they were invading Normandie...

But I suppose we'll just have to accept that. It wouldn't be the first time heroes and villains in the Buffyverse make stupid decisions, after all, so I can buy that.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I used to know quite a few people who dressed like Giles. Well maybe not the Yellow Submarine jumper but there was a big designer knitwear thing going on in Edinburgh in the eighties. Whatever the knights certainly look like they could be from another reality and Buffy wasn't on top of her game. This time she's not only playing with a full deck (queens high) but Voll just gave her a reason to avoid acting like she follows demon rules rather than human ones.

Remember Willow finding the books of ascension in "Choices"? If you find information that might save the world, you don't run without at least trying to find out more.
Willow stopping to read the books got her re-captured, which ultimaltely loss them the box of Gavarok. Buffy is similarily trapped in enemy territory and General Voll is significantly less likely to be reliably informative in the short time thay have before they get caught than a series of books they already knew the enemy didn't want them to read.

If Voll had kept his mouth shut, she'd still be in the dark.
She could see Voll was part of Twilight because she saw the mark not because of anything he said. Without him saying a word she would also have figured that Twilight were behind the attacks on her that used both Amy's magic and military hardware to lure her into a trap that she managed to spring. So all Voll's words do is confirm what she already knew, that Twilight is an organisation with access to magical and conventional resources that is out to attack her and the Slayers she works with. He didn't give her details of anyone else in the organisation or the where, what or when of their next attack. It's like the Allies dropping leaflets on the Germans to tell them their government was evil and resistance futile.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Whatever the knights certainly look like they could be from another reality

They COULD be, but I don't recall anything whatsoever even vaguely suggesting that they ARE. By that logic, anything that looks human could be from another reality (remember Kathy?) and Buffy would never have to follow the "don't kill humans" rule. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Buffy is similarily trapped in enemy territory and General Voll is significantly less likely to be reliably informative in the short time thay have before they get caught

Right. Hence it would be a good idea to bring him along and question him afterwards (just like it would have been a good idea for Willow to take the books and run rather than read them in the Mayor's office).

So all Voll's words do is confirm what she already knew

Not at all. Like I said above, he even went as far as to contradict her when she was mistaken about their goals, so that's obviously not the case. If Voll hadn't said anything, she would probably had put two and two together, but she would never have known *why* she's being targeted. That's a pretty important piece of information he gives up for no reason.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Which was me not some wierd underground feline cabal.