![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Chibnall and the metal bikini
So, when trying to think back on the new showrunner's previous work, one episode did of course stand out...
Now a cyber woman fighting a pterodactyl is probably the single most iconic moment of Torchwood, and as someone who likes my crack deep fried I rather adore it.
However, there is the question of the metal bikini, and at whose feet we shall lay that whole fiasco? Before decrying Chibnall as an evil sexist (have we been on this band wagon before? Why yes we have! If you are in charge of Doctor Who, it is self-evident that you hate women/all minority groups/anyone else you can think of) I thought I'd try to find out if the outfit was his idea, or if - like the case with Amy's skirt - it was something completely out of his hands. (Amy's short skirts were Karen Gillan's idea, and had nothing to do with Moffat.)
For anyone not familiar with the episode is centers around the fact that one of the characters, Ianto, has hidden his girlfriend, Lisa, in the Torchwood basement. The twist being that she's a part-converted cyberman [see the S2 finale of Doctor Who]. Why this is problematic should be evident from these images:
I couldn't find a good quality image of her feet, but those are cute little Cuban heels she's wearing, a million miles from the big stompy footwear cybermen are usually seen wearing.
As I don't have access to the shooting scripts, I instead watched the Declassified episode for 'Cyberwoman' (it's from 2007). I transcribed the relevant parts:
So... Unless the shooting script has 'SEXY' underlined and highlighted, I don't think we can lay the metal bikini at Chibnall's door - it seems to have been a team effort, quite literally. And RTD very clearly found the whole thing hilarious.
To be honest it's quite weird watching it. Like - can't you hear yourselves? But it's very clear that they wanted A Sexy Cyborg, and A Sexy Cyborg is what we got. Whether we should haul up every man involved, or quite simply blame the sexism that permeates society (and that this episode is a perfect example and symptom of), I can't say.
Let's all just hope that at some point, someone took Chibnall aside and said: 'That metal bikini? Was truly terrible, never do it again.'
Although to be fair, Torchwood was at that point still at the jumping up and down going: 'Look! Look! I'm all adult and violent and grim and full of sexual content!!!' stage. And I guess nothing symbolises that more than the sexy cyborg...
Because, if I'm honest, I'm not really outraged*, I'm just nostalgic. It was stupid, but ridiculously so, in that very special Torchwood way: It was also the episode where Jack - quite literally - snogged Ianto back to life.
And I'd rather have had hundred more offensive cyber women, than Miracle Day. :(
They killed my show, and I'm still sad. So I guess that's my final thought:
Dear Chibnall, please make Doctor Who full of weird and wonderful crack, but without objectifying women. And I'm pretty sure you're on that already. Thank you.
ETA: PLEASE BE CIVIL. I realise this is a hornet's nest, but I have no axe to grind. I generally like everyone & everything. (Except Miracle Day.) /fandom's Pollyanna
*They all wanted her to be sexy, and not one of them seems to have spoken up against it. It's just quietly depressing, much like when you read about studies showing just how much women are discriminated against, still, in every way.
Now a cyber woman fighting a pterodactyl is probably the single most iconic moment of Torchwood, and as someone who likes my crack deep fried I rather adore it.
However, there is the question of the metal bikini, and at whose feet we shall lay that whole fiasco? Before decrying Chibnall as an evil sexist (have we been on this band wagon before? Why yes we have! If you are in charge of Doctor Who, it is self-evident that you hate women/all minority groups/anyone else you can think of) I thought I'd try to find out if the outfit was his idea, or if - like the case with Amy's skirt - it was something completely out of his hands. (Amy's short skirts were Karen Gillan's idea, and had nothing to do with Moffat.)
For anyone not familiar with the episode is centers around the fact that one of the characters, Ianto, has hidden his girlfriend, Lisa, in the Torchwood basement. The twist being that she's a part-converted cyberman [see the S2 finale of Doctor Who]. Why this is problematic should be evident from these images:
I couldn't find a good quality image of her feet, but those are cute little Cuban heels she's wearing, a million miles from the big stompy footwear cybermen are usually seen wearing.
As I don't have access to the shooting scripts, I instead watched the Declassified episode for 'Cyberwoman' (it's from 2007). I transcribed the relevant parts:
Here is RTD talking about Lisa's outfit:
"There is a very long history of sexy pneumatic hydraulic women, strangely, in Science Fiction, and we actually wanted to tap into that, and to give a Cyberman version of that, which is just irresistible."
[Cue scene of Japanese science guy perving over Lisa, while Ianto looks disgusted]
RTD cont: "Great, iconic imagery of that woman, trapped, in half a cyberman suit. Brilliant."
[Then there's some talk by the costume/props people about how she's half converted, and trying to figure out what's underneath the cybermen's shiny exterior. And the actress was quite taken with her outfit.]
Director James Strong: "It was so important for this episode that the Cyber Girl looked a) amazing, but also looked threatening and looked scary and looked formidable, but still looked sexy and looked great."
RTD: "There are a lot of men on the team who were absolutely determined to make that Cyber Woman costume as sexy as possible. I've got no idea what they mean. I'm the one sitting there going 'Couldn't she do with a nice little bikini bottom in case she gets too cold in this environment? Apparently it's very very sexy..."
[Then a section where the cast talk about how scary she is - to their credit not one of them mentions the word 'sexy' just that she was intimidating.]
Director: "I think Cyber Girl be the most iconic monster and villain in the entire series...
[montage of Cyber Woman & pterodactyl]
RTD: "The idea of having a pterodactyl fight a cyber woman made us laugh for about three weeks. Solidly."
So... Unless the shooting script has 'SEXY' underlined and highlighted, I don't think we can lay the metal bikini at Chibnall's door - it seems to have been a team effort, quite literally. And RTD very clearly found the whole thing hilarious.
To be honest it's quite weird watching it. Like - can't you hear yourselves? But it's very clear that they wanted A Sexy Cyborg, and A Sexy Cyborg is what we got. Whether we should haul up every man involved, or quite simply blame the sexism that permeates society (and that this episode is a perfect example and symptom of), I can't say.
Let's all just hope that at some point, someone took Chibnall aside and said: 'That metal bikini? Was truly terrible, never do it again.'
Although to be fair, Torchwood was at that point still at the jumping up and down going: 'Look! Look! I'm all adult and violent and grim and full of sexual content!!!' stage. And I guess nothing symbolises that more than the sexy cyborg...
Because, if I'm honest, I'm not really outraged*, I'm just nostalgic. It was stupid, but ridiculously so, in that very special Torchwood way: It was also the episode where Jack - quite literally - snogged Ianto back to life.
And I'd rather have had hundred more offensive cyber women, than Miracle Day. :(
They killed my show, and I'm still sad. So I guess that's my final thought:
Dear Chibnall, please make Doctor Who full of weird and wonderful crack, but without objectifying women. And I'm pretty sure you're on that already. Thank you.
ETA: PLEASE BE CIVIL. I realise this is a hornet's nest, but I have no axe to grind. I generally like everyone & everything. (Except Miracle Day.) /fandom's Pollyanna
*They all wanted her to be sexy, and not one of them seems to have spoken up against it. It's just quietly depressing, much like when you read about studies showing just how much women are discriminated against, still, in every way.
no subject
Edit: Chibs also gets blamed for director decisions all the time that he couldn't possibly have had anything to do with-- see Pond Life and the people going apeshit over the sexism in that.
no subject
This is it. He doesn't mention it once, so it's much like Amy's skirts.
Edit: Chibs also gets blamed for director decisions all the time that he couldn't possibly have had anything to do with-- see Pond Life and the people going apeshit over the sexism in that.
Huh. I thought everyone just blamed Moffat.
no subject
no subject
Btw, where do you stand on the question of Whithouse's transphobia [this is a proven fact, according to Tumblr]? As far as I can tell, it all comes down to Susan the horse.
no subject
Not Owls but I meself have to wave a wand and pretend Susan was a boy horse who just wanted to be called Susan. It was a bit... umm.
no subject
no subject
no subject
If nothing else, then for someone to explain to him why it wasn't funny (I'm guessing that's why he put it in???), but just offensive.
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
Basically, I think the joke was against the potentially judgmental viewer, not against the horse or trans people or trans horses or whatever.
And in conclusion: Tumblr is the worst.
no subject
Basically. These are the same people who went apeshit over the Dresden Dolls song ''Sex Changes'' because omg transphobia. FFS it's a pun, get over it.
no subject
Thank you. I can see how it's just weird, but the way people take it as gospel that he's transphobic - apparently based on nothing but that line - still makes me scratch my head.
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
It's Torchwood in a nutshell. <3
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
The Lisa revelation/death was a momentary set-back, but nothing more.
Besides, there's nothing that says OTP to me more than characters waving guns in each other's faces, saying how they hate each other & want to kill them.
no subject
It really threw me when Power of Three came along and other people liked him!
no subject
This still amuses me.
It really threw me when Power of Three came along and other people liked him!
Yeah, he was a handy punching bag for people...
Sidebar: Did you have Ianto down as an INFP?
no subject
#promethia does tv wrong
Sidebar: Did you have Ianto down as an INFP?
I did, though lately I've been thinking about INFP/ISFJ mistypings (in other contexts) and now I'm wondering if I hadn't got it wrong. I'd have to rewatch to think about it, though.
no subject
Huh. I'll look forward to your thoughts. I can't see him as an ISFJ, I don't think. His role butler] on Torchwood is dictated by circumstance more than personality...
no subject
I just felt pretty confident that he was an INFP from pretty early on and it occurs to me that I might have been premature.
*ponders* You do seem to like a Fi/Fe divide in your ships. I mean, almost all the ones I know about have one.
no subject
Like - can't you hear yourselves?
Could they say "sexy" anymore times?
They all wanted her to be sexy, and not one of them seems to have spoken up against it. It's just quietly depressing, much like when you read about studies showing just how much women are discriminated against, still, in every way.
Yes. *sighs*
(Because sighing is better than ranting, at least right now.)
no subject
*is pleased* My work here is done!
Could they say "sexy" anymore times?
Of course it's all edited together, but... no. Probably not.
(Because sighing is better than ranting, at least right now.)
I got that far, and just sort of gave up.
no subject
I will agree with you that "Miracle Day" should be completely eradicated from canon.
Stacey
no subject
Well, it's not like we're not used to seeing women dressed like that...
I will agree with you that "Miracle Day" should be completely eradicated from canon.
The crack ate it. You can't prove me wrong. And hey presto - it's gone! :)
no subject
Sounds good to me!
Stacey
no subject
no subject
Stacey
no subject
Oh one more thing- Christ, I miss Captain Jack.
no subject
I've thought this too!
Oh one more thing- Christ, I miss Captain Jack.
Me tooooo! *sad face* Maybe Moffat will bring him back next year? Or Chibnall might? After all, Chibnall pretty much ran Torchwood, it'd make sense for him to bring back his main character...
no subject
*please note icon (it is called "type? what type?")
no subject
Yes, but I don't watch that...
*please note icon (it is called "type? what type?")
LOL. Precious darlings. <3
no subject
no subject
Oh I see! Sorry, clearly my brain switched itself off. And surely he could find time for ONE episode... *crosses fingers*
no subject
(also, we are in the fourth year already and one wonders how long the show even will go on. It might have already ended in 2018)
The show certainly has turned out differently than I thought/hoped in the beginning and everyone agrees that season 1 was the best and most consistent (it also had the most Malcolm Merlyn, go figure), but it is still fun to watch. But I admit part of the enjoyment for me is all the off-show antics by everyone involved, I love that John has found a new home and family there. Just last weekend there was a spectacular convention and they tried to do their best to cheer everyone up despite all the problems with the snow. We had fun for days with all the videos and pictures.
no subject
no subject
I'm also rather disturbed by their discussion of how she looked threatening and scary depite being in that ridiculous outfit given that they cast a black actress in that role. At least in the U.S. that whole perception of people with dark skin leads to very tragic things like children being shot by the police and the assumption that they're much older than they are.
no subject
Hmmm. Good point. Although finding an actual cyberman sexy would be... difficult.
Which is lucky for men because they are very rarely as scantily dressed as women are.
True. But we're getting there, slowly. ;) (Hi there Poldark!) Of course the power balance is still not right, as men don't lose power by undressing, but still.
I'm also rather disturbed by their discussion of how she looked threatening and scary depite being in that ridiculous outfit given that they cast a black actress in that role.
I think this is somewhat of a cultural divide. She was scary because she was emotionless and super-strong. Not that we don't have issues of racism, but I don't think that played into it. (The actress didn't seem bothered by any of it, thinking that it was a pretty neat outfit.) Of course I don't know how it was perceived by black people, so if someone wants to weigh in, please do so. I can't speak for others.
no subject
There are two things to be considered:
(1) Men objectifying women. Sometimes they will find an excuse for it.
(2) Women who use their sexuality to manipulate a man.
When Danny was resurrected as a cyberman, the situation was depressing. With Lisa it is played differently. Except for that flashback of Ianto wailing in agony after Lisa is half converted. That bit was horrible.:(
Both RTD and Moffat admit that part of how they hire actors is based on a certain look or image for the character that they will portray. It could be misinterpreted with Moffat because Karen Gillian was a model. As if it was the main reason he hired her.
I heard Karen was suppose to wear trousers or pants because they are more practical. She suggested the short skirts with at least suitable foot wear which were boots.
Clara wore skirts and heels and in the episode Time Heist the Doctor tells her to change her shoes.
When my brother found out who the champion for series 5 was going to be, he gave me a look that said: Oh their going for a PYT. I lamely replied with: Shes Scottish!. That's different. But I have to admit I was kind of thinking the same thing.
I sometimes disagree with the way women are portrayed in Doctor Who but if I let it get to me, I would have stopped watching a long time ago.
I almost did with Torchwood but I was trying to be optimistic about the spin-off. I liked Tosh more than Gwen, even though the latter got more screen time.
I was wondering if you have ever watched the show Supernatural?.
no subject
It was at its most Torchwood-y during S2. <3 Children of Earth was practically a master piece, but it wasn't the same show anymore. Miracle Day is one of the few things I deeply dislike.
When Danny was resurrected as a cyberman, the situation was depressing. With Lisa it is played differently.
*nods* Very different stories, with different aims.
It could be misinterpreted with Moffat because Karen Gillian was a model. As if it was the main reason he hired her.
This is particularly hilarious, because the first video he saw of her had some issue with the aspect ratio so he thought she was short and chubby. But he didn't care about her looks [or lack thereof], her performance was so good that he knew she was the one he wanted. And then he met her and she was tall and gorgeous and consisted of mostly legs...
I heard Karen was suppose to wear trousers or pants because they are more practical. She suggested the short skirts with at least suitable foot wear which were boots.
Yes, that sounds right. And hey, Amy owns her sexuality. She's confident and people aren't used to girls behaving like that.
Oh their going for a PYT.
Yeah, see above. ;)
I sometimes disagree with the way women are portrayed in Doctor Who but if I let it get to me, I would have stopped watching a long time ago.
The good parts outweigh the bad to such a margin that most other TV shows don't come near. Also, some people get hilariously angry at how the women are all hyper competent, moreso than the Doctor...
I almost did with Torchwood but I was trying to be optimistic about the spin-off. I liked Tosh more than Gwen, even though the latter got more screen time.
Torchwood was crack. Beautiful, delicious crack, and I loved it FAR too much. (And the fic was amazing... *deep sigh*)
I was wondering if you have ever watched the show Supernatural?.
Nope. But I've seen Women's Work.
no subject
The term Torchwood-y made me giggle.:)
The format changed in series 3. I couldn't get over the "456" creature. I know why RTD did it that way so the alien would appear more threatening. The fact that Ianto was killed off and there was only Jack and Gwen left, made people not bother with "Miracle Day".
"And then he met her and she was tall and gorgeous and consisted of mostly legs..."
Moffat and body part nicknames:
Amy is "Legs".
Rory is "Nose".
Eleven is "Chin"
River is "Big Hair"
Clara is "Round Face".
Twelve is "Attack Eyebrows".
"She's confident and people aren't used to girls behaving like that".
Phoebe Buffay: And then I would use, y'know, the strongest tool at my disposal: my sexuality.
I'm not confident so I wouldn't really flirt with anyone. I also don't look like Karen either.
I use to watch Supernatural but a certain plot point in season 3 annoyed me so I stopped watching. I just mentioned it because the character Dean spends most of his time being promiscuous or hanging out at strip joints but once a women sexualizes him, he doesn't like it. Go figure!.
no subject
*nudge-nudge-wink-wink*
The format changed in series 3. I couldn't get over the "456" creature.
I thought it worked very well. (Although RTD dubbed it Smokey the Space Pelican' in The Writers Tale.) And oh god, Peter Capaldi, acting against it, will always be one of my benchmarks for an outstanding performance. Plus, there were a ton of great women.
The fact that Ianto was killed off and there was only Jack and Gwen left, made people not bother with "Miracle Day".
It was a fantastic series, but it destroyed the show. Burnt it up. And the new characters were... not that great.
Phoebe Buffay: And then I would use, y'know, the strongest tool at my disposal: my sexuality.
Well, she doesn't use it in that way - she doesn't flirt much (certainly not like River), it's more that she behaves like a boy. Which women 'shouldn't'.
I just mentioned it because the character Dean spends most of his time being promiscuous or hanging out at strip joints but once a women sexualizes him, he doesn't like it. Go figure!.
Sounds about right! >:)
no subject
"Plus, there were a ton of great women"
When I see things I dislike, I tend to forget the things I do like.
"And the new characters were... not that great".
Esther/Rex was like a rehash of Tosh/Owen except Rex was WAY MORE annoying.
Phoebe: Is Daddy gonna spank me?
Ross: [trying to be sexy] Well that depends, have you been a baad g- no, i can't do this.
She thought she was. I think Phoebe was better at confrontation than flirting.
Bela (looks impressed to see Dean in a tux): You know, when this is over, we should really have angry sex.
Dean [after some moments of awkward silence]:Don't objectify me.
Bela [Smiles]
Not so nice when its on the other foot, isn't it DEAN!.:)
no subject
Torchwood-esque is fine! But not as funny. ;)
Esther/Rex was like a rehash of Tosh/Owen except Rex was WAY MORE annoying.
I think I liked Esther. I can't really remember.
Not so nice when its on the other foot, isn't it DEAN!.:)
Poor baby, that was NOTHING.
no subject
Esther had the potential. Too bad about what happened to her. Rex was suppose to die but didn't.
"Poor baby, that was NOTHING"
Yeah!. He didn't have to dance around a pole, in a scantily clad outfit for strange men while they gave him banknotes!.
Crowley to Dean and Sam: You two are lucky you have your looks.
Although there is fan service on the show. The lead actors were always going topless. It did nothing for me because I'm not attracted to them. I'm sure their nice Texas guys in real life all the same.
I guess Men are sexy when they are dressed up, while women are sexy when they are NOT dressed.
no subject
It was the most STUPID THING I HAVE EVER HAD THE MISFORTUNE TO WATCH. IT STILL MAKES ME ANGRY!
Yeah!. He didn't have to dance around a pole, in a scantily clad outfit for strange men while they gave him banknotes!.
Although I'm sure the viewers would like that...
Although there is fan service on the show. The lead actors were always going topless
Yeah, things change. Like James Bond being the one to emerge from the sea in tiny swim wear. :)
I guess Men are sexy when they are dressed up, while women are sexy when they are NOT dressed.
Hmmmmm. Everyone looks good in a suit though.
no subject
I find the thought of male strippers funny. It was to balance out the fact that women were being objectified that way. The solution?. Let's make men do it too!. It's there decision I suppose.
Now I'm going to sound superficial by saying that no other actor who portrayed James Bond before Daniel Craig could have pulled that scene off. I do like that this version of Mr Bond is less of a womanizer than before. He actually fell in love instead of just shagging a bond girl.
The clothes make the man. Or woman. It's about a certain image. On TV and in movies, you know their suppose to be hot when their walking in slow motion sequence. With the wind blowing in their hair.
no subject
LOL. I don't remember anything about him, to be honest.
I find the thought of male strippers funny. It was to balance out the fact that women were being objectified that way. The solution?. Let's make men do it too!. It's there decision I suppose.
It's certainly better than nothing. ;)
Now I'm going to sound superficial by saying that no other actor who portrayed James Bond before Daniel Craig could have pulled that scene off.
I don't think Connery would have had any problems. Ahem. /obligatory half-naked Spike icon. Buffy had a tendency to have handsome leads undress.
I do like that this version of Mr Bond is less of a womanizer than before. He actually fell in love instead of just shagging a bond girl.
It's very much a reboot, showing how he 'becomes' a drinking womaniser, which I like. More serious. (I adore Skyfall to tiny pieces. SUCH a gorgeous film. Has a lot in common w/Dr Who in terms of where it's at in culture & dealing with Britain today.)
On TV and in movies, you know their suppose to be hot when their walking in slow motion sequence. With the wind blowing in their hair.
*snerk* Yes, rather. :)
no subject
Sex means nothing to asexual people. Blind people don't need to know about it because they will know by instinct. I just think its overused sometimes.
I think its sexy when men put clothes on or they have a certain skill set.
I think the image of James Bond needed to get with the times. Doctor Who also went through a similar process even though its suppose to be following on from the old series.
Catherine Tate did say the female champion role is like being a Bond girl. I did like that skit she did with Daniel Craig.
Mr Connery was quite dashing as James Bond back in the day. But I saw an image of him with a long pony tail while wearing a mankini and now I can not unsee it.
I liked Timothy Dalton as James, even though he didn't play the role that long.
no subject
I have buried great swathes of Miracle Day so deep in my memory that I doubt any of it will ever resurface.
Sex means nothing to asexual people. Blind people don't need to know about it because they will know by instinct. I just think its overused sometimes.
You seen this?
I think its sexy when men put clothes on or they have a certain skill set.
A good suit + competence and I'm there... (Or some other outfit that just works.)
I think the image of James Bond needed to get with the times. Doctor Who also went through a similar process even though its suppose to be following on from the old series.
Totally. Re-boots all round! Ditto Sherlock. :)
Catherine Tate did say the female champion role is like being a Bond girl.
Without the sex. ;)
But I saw an image of him with a long pony tail while wearing a mankini and now I can not unsee it.
*tries to scrub brain*
I liked Timothy Dalton as James, even though he didn't play the role that long.
Which means I HAVE to get Buffy verse gifs:
(Not sure why the second gif isn't moving. But at least the text is there.)
no subject
You know what else is sexy?. Hygiene. I try to set the bar low. Also guys who don't have dangerous psychological problems.
James Bond doesn't acknowledge that his face changes. Whereas the Doctor has a reason for it.
There is "sexual tension" between the Doctor and the female champion. Maybe with Donna it was just tension?.
Although a few wanted to have sex with the Doctor.
Thanks for the James Bond debate from Buffy. It cheered me up.:)
no subject
I don't either, I saw it... somewhere else. (Twitter makes no sense to me.)
You know what else is sexy?. Hygiene. I try to set the bar low. Also guys who don't have dangerous psychological problems.
Hygiene *is* setting the bar low - but at least easy to spot. The other one is more difficult... (I was unfeasibly lucky to meet Darcy when I was young.)
James Bond doesn't acknowledge that his face changes. Whereas the Doctor has a reason for it.
Neither does Sherlock Holmes. It depends on the context.
There is "sexual tension" between the Doctor and the female champion. Maybe with Donna it was just tension?.
LOL. Well, depends on the companion. And the Doctor.
Thanks for the James Bond debate from Buffy. It cheered me up.:)
My pleasure. There's more to it, but those were the only gifs I could find.
no subject
I forgot to state my sarcasm?. Although I wouldn't be surprise if there are people who don't think its an issue. It depends on a persons state of mind.
"The other one is more difficult..."
Oh yes. My mum knows all too well about that. The family hid it from her before she eventually realized it.
The format is like in a SOAP opera where a different actor takes over the same role. I'd be freaked out if that could happen in real life. My mum returns home and looks like a different person...
I'm not sure how Verity Lambert would of thought about Doctor Who being compared to the Ian Fleming books.
Donna: We're like spies!.
Ten: We are spies.
There was only tension when Ten couldn't just say no to Donna. Otherwise he was the most at ease with her.
David Tennant and Catherine Tate went off to do another project together where they could have sexual tension between the characters they were portraying instead.
Your gifs make me want to do a rewatch of Buffy. I wonder what Warren and Andrew would of said about Daniel Craig?.
no subject
I did wonder. ;) Although it's a fair point.
Oh yes. My mum knows all too well about that. The family hid it from her before she eventually realized it.
:( Sounds awful.
My mum returns home and looks like a different person...
LOL
I'm not sure how Verity Lambert would of thought about Doctor Who being compared to the Ian Fleming books.
I think 'British Institution' is not a bad thing, so she'd probably be pleased.
Ten: We are spies.
That's brilliant.
And yes, I wish I'd been able to see their Much Ado. Ah well.
Your gifs make me want to do a rewatch of Buffy. I wonder what Warren and Andrew would of said about Daniel Craig?.
Hmmm. I think they'd probably have liked him, and the whole ;back to basics' thing.
no subject
I'm far away too so I only saw snippets of Much Ado on Youtube.
I could imagine Andrew day dreaming about Daniel Craig coming out of the water and how this version of James Bond has real feelings.:)
no subject
I didn't realise that was a deleted scene! Oh, that makes me sad.
I'm far away too so I only saw snippets of Much Ado on Youtube.
Yeah, I had no chance of seeing it either, sadly. (Closer, yes, but no money.)
I could imagine Andrew day dreaming about Daniel Craig coming out of the water and how this version of James Bond has real feelings.:)
!!!!!! That could be a fic...
no subject
Ten: I bet that's Ferrari boy.
Donna: I bet his worth a bit.
Ten: Are you traveling the whole universe to find a husband?
Donna: Got a problem with that skinny? (smirks)
no subject
no subject
RTD did wish he had left the "spies" scene in though.
no subject
However, I'm sure you can imagine how fandom would have taken the 'only travelling to find a husband' line. Fandom can be very humourless...
And yeah, the spies bit would have been brilliant!
no subject
David and Catherine's body language and facial expressions are so nsync.:)
However, there are two things that seemed odd to me:
(1) Donna is self-conscious when she is referred to as "Miss". Like being single is bad.
(2) Donna is more impressed by a "proper" rocket compared to the TARDIS. The latter travels in time and space!
Although some thought Donna getting excited over being on an alien planet for the first time was wierd?
The Doctor had a delayed reaction to Donnas comment hence the "ferrari boy" remark he muttered and probably why he tries to teach Donna to fly the TARDIS in the next episode.
no subject
Oh I'm sure! But I'm sure you know what fandom is like...
(1) Donna is self-conscious when she is referred to as "Miss". Like being single is bad.
Donna has a lot of issues, which I like - she's so loud, partly to cover up her insecurities.
(2) Donna is more impressed by a "proper" rocket compared to the TARDIS. The latter travels in time and space!
But the other one looks cooler! (Although yes, I'm sure that's why he began teaching her.)
Although some thought Donna getting excited over being on an alien planet for the first time was wierd?
People are weird.
no subject
Donna being self-conscious about being single probably comes from not having the best luck with men. In my case, I get annoyed when people ask me all sorts of inappropriate questions when they find out I'm single.
The TARDIS being just a "box" comment reminds me of when women are not impress by a guys car because it's not "fancy" enough.
My brother told me a girl said "not impressed" when he had to give her a lift in his first car which was a Nissan Pulsar. I told my brother that he should have told her to walk. I get defensive about these things.
To be fair, some people though Rose got too excited at the beginning of New Earth, while others though Amy didn't get excited enough. It depends on which episode that is being referenced.
no subject
*nods* And everyone thought Darcy & I were SO YOUNG when we got married (which we were - I was 20, he was 19), so it's hard to do anything right... (I love that Amy & Rory got married young. It's so very rare to see that.)
My brother told me a girl said "not impressed" when he had to give her a lift in his first car which was a Nissan Pulsar. I told my brother that he should have told her to walk. I get defensive about these things.
I get annoyed when car adverts imply that all women care about is a guy's car. Sad that such women actually exist. :(
To be fair, some people though Rose got too excited at the beginning of New Earth, while others though Amy didn't get excited enough. It depends on which episode that is being referenced.
Oh yeah, can't do it right no matter what.
no subject
Then on the other hand if you haven't settled down by the time you are in your thirties, you are concidered unconventional.
I don't have the lifestyle to find a partner right now but my brother is looking into match making me, which I'm a bit apprehensive about.
Car adverts don't seemed to make any sense these days. One ad had a woman tell a guy to stay in the car because in her imagination he was "hot" inside it!.
I prefer fun ads like cars that turn into a robot and starts dancing.:D
Ads that have superficial women in them are insulting to the female population.
I don't understand how thats a good way to promote a product.
I hope I make sense. I delayed my reply for this post because my cat passed away. My mind is all over the place so to speak.
no subject
Yes - conventions have changed, but you're still expected to conform...
I don't have the lifestyle to find a partner right now but my brother is looking into match making me, which I'm a bit apprehensive about.
I hear ya. Maybe humour him for a couple of dates, and then put your foot down?
I prefer fun ads like cars that turn into a robot and starts dancing.:D
I think my favourite one is this one. :)
Ads that have superficial women in them are insulting to the female population.
They try to appeal to men. And having watched 2/3 of Wolf on Wall Street, it's obvious that that sort of thing still sells. (Film not recommended.)
I hope I make sense. I delayed my reply for this post because my cat passed away. My mind is all over the place so to speak.
(((hugs)))) That's awful. Sending you all my sympathy.
no subject
I usually stick to a transcript and ignore the judgmental look on people's faces.
To be fair, I do want to get married. I find it hard to trust people especially after my brother got a divorce. My former sister in law was a big fat liar.
I read your other post. You don't have to convince me. I saw the movie poster. Seriously?. In this day and age.
Sexist ads are just alienating the rest of society.
I had to do reserch on Flake ads over the decades for a Retail Assessment. They are targeted to women and yet so suggestive to men.
In Australia a juice ad was pulled off air because it objectified a man. Yet women are still used as sexual objects to sell products.
Thanks for your sympathy.
no subject
Sorry to hear that, and hope you meet someone nice some day.
I read your other post. You don't have to convince me. I saw the movie poster. Seriously?. In this day and age.
Thankfully it's gone now, but it made me angry every single day.
I had to do reserch on Flake ads over the decades for a Retail Assessment. They are targeted to women and yet so suggestive to men.
*nods* I know exactly what you mean.
In Australia a juice ad was pulled off air because it objectified a man. Yet women are still used as sexual objects to sell products.
Men being 'the stronger sex' is a joke. I'd like to see them cope with what women put up with on a daily basis.
Thanks for your sympathy.
I've always had cats, I know how hard it is to lose them. (((hugs)))
no subject
I saw how devastating it was for my brother to go through a divorce. Despite that, he wants me to find happiness. His just being cautious on my behalf.
I watched a show years ago where an experiment was done on guys being objectified by girls. At first the guys like it, but after a while it started to make them feel bad.
My cat was a grey tabby and I had him for 13 years. I still have another cat. I'm sure she's missing him too. But I'm coping alright now.
no subject
I saw how devastating it was for my brother to go through a divorce. Despite that, he wants me to find happiness. His just being cautious on my behalf.
He sounds like a good brother.
I watched a show years ago where an experiment was done on guys being objectified by girls. At first the guys like it, but after a while it started to make them feel bad.
Not surprising...
My cat was a grey tabby and I had him for 13 years. I still have another cat. I'm sure she's missing him too. But I'm coping alright now.
<3 I'm glad you have another cat, I'm hoping you get lots of snuggles.
no subject
When a match make didn't work out, my brother took it harder than me. But it was best to know where I stood before things went further. The guy went for someone else because I took "too long" to make arrangements.
The cat I have now is part tabby, part tortoiseshell. Shes more "streetwise".
no subject
Seems it all ended up the best way possible. If you weren't ready, rushing it would have been awful.
And your cat sounds adorable.
no subject
I always have to bring up my personal background with being a carer, then I have to mention my dad etc. I just wish I could talk about something a bit more uplifting when I socialise.
It's going to be hard to find someone who can accept that I come with that kind of baggage.
Anyway.
Cats are funny when they are hyper, as my cat can be quite mischievous.
no subject
I wish society wouldn't put such a premium on being a couple. Better to be single, than an unhappy couple. Plus there are a lot of single people...
I always have to bring up my personal background with being a carer, then I have to mention my dad etc. I just wish I could talk about something a bit more uplifting when I socialise.
Smalltalk is evil.
Cats are funny when they are hyper, as my cat can be quite mischievous.
Cats are one of the best entertainments possible.
no subject
I like your way of thinking.:)
I think you shouldn't have to try so hard when making friends. It just happens naturally.
no subject
This.
no subject
*HUGS*
no subject
And hey, if they subject him to the same kind of lens that RTD & Moffat have been viewed through... Well, he's probably got thick skin.
no subject
no subject
no subject
Yup, Miracle Day definitely is a sour note and I don't think of it as canon.
no subject
Well, if fandom can be offended, it will. So this is almost pre-emptive. :)
Yup, Miracle Day definitely is a sour note and I don't think of it as canon.
The crack ate it, and good riddance! (It was especially annoying because there were some really good ideas in there, they were just wasted.)
no subject
I guess why it gets to me so much is that I can't decide who is right and who is wrong. Both are right and have their reasons.
I certainly don't think it is the worst Torchwood episode. That honor for me goes to "Countryside" which I truly dislike yet so many people including the actors state it as their favorite. I really don't get why. Well, the beginning with the camping and everything, yes, and Ianto in jeans, I get that too, but then? Urrgh.
So, like
no subject
OOooh yes, I'm right there with you. But if I'd started talking about that I'd just have descended into shippiness. ;)
I guess why it gets to me so much is that I can't decide who is right and who is wrong. Both are right and have their reasons.
This. Shades of grey, I love it. (Torchwood is excellent at shades of grey.)
That honor for me goes to "Countryside" which I truly dislike yet so many people including the actors state it as their favorite. I really don't get why.
They do??? Really? How odd. But then David Tennant & Catherine Tate loved Donna's ending, because the acting was such a challenge/rewarding.
Maybe I should get her and the Blowfish for sentimental reasons. I think they are not very expensive...
<3 My favourite use of Lisa in that outfit is in Torchwood Babiez, where Ianto carries round a Lisa doll. You can glimpse it in my icon.
no subject
Stargate, in the beginning, was very good at that as well. Jack the soldier/leader always wanted to shoot first and ask questions later, and Daniel the civilian/archeologist wanted to talk with the aliens. Over the course of several years Daniel became more soldier-like while Jack softened up. It was great to see but it took the fight out of it a bit. I loved the early years because again I could see both being right from their POV. Jack has had many bad experiences and became wary and untrusting, and Daniel was too naïve and trustworthy sometimes which got them into trouble and then it was interesting to see them work on a solution both can live with.
I had quite to smile when in the “Devil in the Dark” Star Trek TOS episode we had a very similar situation with Kirk wanting to kill the beast but Spock said it is the last of its kind and we can’t. But then when Kirk was in danger Spock was ready to kill it while Kirk already had made friends with it. Somehow this episode felt very Stargate like to me ;) I guess it is a simple theme we can find in lots of science fiction.
They do??? Really? How odd.
I think the actors where just happy to be out of the studio for a change. They stayed in the middle of nowhere in a hotel while shooting and there are lots of funny stories John Barrowman and Eve Myles like to tell at conventions. Apparently John was so frightened after they told each other ghost stories that he slept in Eve’s bed… I’m sure they had fun filming it but it still makes for a bad episode (I also rather choose to ignore the Jack statement of that he used to be a torturer. It does not fit with the view I have of the character and they never came back to it either)
Oh yeah I love the Torchwood Babiez! That was a great evening many years ago when someone had linked to it and I explored it. Very well drawn and also really, really spot on and funny. I wish there was more.
no subject
*nods* Sci-fi is great for exploring all these issues.
They stayed in the middle of nowhere in a hotel while shooting and there are lots of funny stories John Barrowman and Eve Myles like to tell at conventions. Apparently John was so frightened after they told each other ghost stories that he slept in Eve’s bed…
Now THAT I believe. :)
I wish there was more.
If only...
no subject
It's been awhile so I don't remember it that well, but I'm pretty sure I found it one of the stronger season one episodes? Not my ~favorite, but definitely above average. It's a good episode for Gwen, if I recall correctly. And I definitely found 'because it made me happy' one of the most chilling moments of classic Torchwood. (I watched the Declassified on this one too, and most of the actors seemed to agree.)
The Welsh stereotyping, I'll admit, went straight over my head, so I'll grant anyone that who found it offensive on that front. I suppose if it was an American show we'd set the episode in the Appalachian mountains . . .
no subject
I just found that... a bit underwhelming? Like, if you're a cannibal, clearly you are insane.
I suppose if it was an American show we'd set the episode in the Appalachian mountains . . .
But Wales ISN'T the back of beyond. I guess they set it in Wales because that's where they're based, but it was... unfortunate.
no subject
:: shrug :: I guess we'll see in a year.
no subject
From RTD bringing up the history of sexy sci-fi robots, that sounds like a possibility to me.
no subject
Ah, but people do... I thought I'd see if there was anything to it.
First, I thought Torchwood was trying too hard to be "adult." (I think the second series was much better.)
It was trying WAY too hard, bless it. As you say, it found a good balance in S2.
:: shrug :: I guess we'll see in a year.
It's hugely unlikely, considering that Doctor Who is a children's show.
Don't judge by one episode
(Anonymous) 2016-01-28 08:43 am (UTC)(link)Besides, people, the man has written so many OTHER things: He wrote for Life on Mars, many other Torchwood episodes, Law & Order: UK, all of Broadchurch, and many Doctor Who episodes, all except one under Moffat too.
Re: Don't judge by one episode
Torchwood = Queer as Folk w/aliens
I think we can let Chibnall off for the time being.
Yes, and I'm glad that my little poke into the background confirmed that.
Besides, people, the man has written so many OTHER things: He wrote for Life on Mars, many other Torchwood episodes, Law & Order: UK, all of Broadchurch, and many Doctor Who episodes, all except one under Moffat too.
Yup, broad portfolio - which is why he got the job. :)
no subject
no subject
I suspected that might be the case, and I'm glad to have been right. Ish. It's kinda sad to see them all so excited about how 'sexy' she is, but what's done is done.
But then I was completely out of step with popular opinion when it came to that episode anyway! I found the confrontations between Jack /Ianto and Ianto/Lisa pretty powerful
I remember disliking it initially, mostly because I was already shipping Jack & Ianto, and thought this would ruin any chances. How wrong I was. And then with 'Fragments' in S2 showing the background to the Cyberwoman fallout, I like it very much - the outfit apart.
no subject
And why anyone, man or not, would think an elite soldier (and that is what they should see and understand her as) would consider wearing such an outfit is just ridiculous. In dressing her like that they undermined the whole nature of the cybermen to begin with. I doubt they have a concept of "sexy" at all.
I can understand wanting to revoke images of sci-fi history, but it could have at least have been done well and it could have been done without the objectifying male gaze and it is possible to sexy without being largely naked.
Also re snogging Ianto back to life…I never understood why the both of them seemed to regard that as kiss in Countrycide….
It makes no sense to me why they decided on only two seasons with the original team – I miss them!
no subject
Yeah... :(
And why anyone, man or not, would think an elite soldier (and that is what they should see and understand her as) would consider wearing such an outfit is just ridiculous.
Well, it's supposed to be what's underneath the main casing. I can understand the concept, and it's not a bad one, they just shouldn't have gone for sexy as their leitmotif.
I can understand wanting to revoke images of sci-fi history, but it could have at least have been done well and it could have been done without the objectifying male gaze and it is possible to sexy without being largely naked.
To which the only reply is... Torchwood. To be fair, Torchwood was pretty equal opportunity, when it came to objectifying people, but that one went a bit too far.
Also re snogging Ianto back to life…I never understood why the both of them seemed to regard that as kiss in Countrycide….
They did? I remember Ianto saying that Lisa was the last person he kissed. Although it most definitely WAS a kiss (Jack/Ianto, I mean). Nothing close to CPR.
It makes no sense to me why they decided on only two seasons with the original team – I miss them!
Me too! *sad* RTD thought that Torchwood 'could be anything', but he was wrong. It worked very well as it was, and then he broke it.
no subject
no subject
I did not know that. Hmmm. It was always problematic (hate the word, but it's accurate in this instance), but that makes it worse. :(
no subject
Good point with the shoes, by the way. Some would argue that the costume was an imagination about how the inside of the cyber shell might have look line but the shoes are without doubts a proof that it was all about making her sexy.
I couldn't believe they've all actually said what you've kindly written down so I watched it myself. On the guys defense, Chris said Davies presented him the story, and at the end he added, "oh, and there's a Cybergirl in the basement", so I believe the emotional touch was always their top interest. It doesn't make the whole thing right, of course. It's been completely unlogical in regard to Cybermen and it feasted on men's fear of women comfortable about their sexuality (so they make them dangerous), and that trope should become a history.
They all wanted her to be sexy, and not one of them seems to have spoken up against it. It's just quietly depressing, much like when you read about studies showing just how much women are discriminated against, still, in every way.
Exactly. Just imagine a man in a cyberoutfit that hardly covers his man parts and let him walk like that for the entire episode.I'm sure no one would think that would be a good idea.
I've never watched The Miracle Day. The first two series were good enough to get me to the third one, which was my goal, and I don't want to ruin my good memories (a broken heart is another story) after Children On Earth by watching the last season. I heard some people saying it wasn't that bad, but I've heard people saying they disliked Children On Earth so I suppose there's the whole range of opinions about everything :)
Amy's skirts might have been Karen's idea (although I still think someone should have said to her it's ridicolous; it made me have trouble to suspend my disbelief - in the world where you need to run so often and your life often depends on whether you were fast enough, you learn that any trousers are better than mini skirts) but it's been Moffat who wrote her as "Legs" and kept reminding us of her long after she was gone (Twelve's "Sometimes I miss Amy" in 8x01, Clara's "she's all legs!"). However, let me add that I don't blame him for all sexist elements on the show (I'm sure he hasn't written that long shot on Amy's body in "Eleventh Hour") and I agree with you that it's mostly because the society we live in that allows things like that. We're far away from men and women being treated as equal.
no subject
no subject
Slightl confused as to which man you're talking about? Or do you mean the Japanese scientist?
Good point with the shoes, by the way. Some would argue that the costume was an imagination about how the inside of the cyber shell might have look line but the shoes are without doubts a proof that it was all about making her sexy.
I wonder what they were thinking. Like - why heels? Cybermen would have no concept of that sort of aesthetic.
I couldn't believe they've all actually said what you've kindly written down so I watched it myself.
Yeah, I had to rewind a lot...
On the guys defense, Chris said Davies presented him the story, and at the end he added, "oh, and there's a Cybergirl in the basement", so I believe the emotional touch was always their top interest.
Yes, he's the only one not talking about her being sexy, so it looks like his interest was story-led. (Wish I had the shooting script.)
Exactly. Just imagine a man in a cyberoutfit that hardly covers his man parts and let him walk like that for the entire episode.I'm sure no one would think that would be a good idea.
As
I heard some people saying it wasn't that bad, but I've heard people saying they disliked Children On Earth so I suppose there's the whole range of opinions about everything :)
I can understand people not liking Children of Earth... The best way of describing it is still this quote from Angel:
ILLYRIA: Your world is so small. And yet you box yourselves in rooms even smaller. You shut yourselves inside... in rooms, in routines.
WESLEY: There are things worse than walls. Terrible... and beautiful. If we look at them for too long they will burn right through us. Truths we couldn't bear. Not every day.
It's probably the best thing RTD has ever written, but it also doesn't shy away from unbelievably painful truths. In that way it's the complete opposite of Cyberwoman.
Miracle Day, on the other hand, is just rubbish. A few good ideas, but they were wasted. Do not go near.
Twelve's "Sometimes I miss Amy" in 8x01
To be fair, that was mostly a dig at how VERY short Clara is.
However, let me add that I don't blame him for all sexist elements on the show
He's also a troll. And he enjoys the interplay between the sexes - see Coupling etc. And he got Matt Smith to strip down quite regularly. ;)
no subject
Yes, that one. He even touched her metal breast, if his words weren't enough. Later, everyone else seemed just to be frightened by her.
Cybermen would have no concept of that sort of aesthetic.
Exactly. Their goal is to "improve" human bodies so flat shoes should be obvious, also they never made women and men look different.
There was none of that with Lisa - although the actress did what she could - I think the intention was probably there, but the outfit worked against her, rather than with.
I agree. I wonder if Russell and Chris were satisfied by the result, or if the thought "it was wrong" came to them when they watched the episode, but it was too late. It's so obvious to us...
I love that quote, it's so true.
Children of Earth was a masterpiece but I think the best episode Davies has written and I've seen is probably Midnight. Many writers came up with interesting monsters but to make humans the monsters of the week, in a totally realistic way, that was thinking outside the box. I always feel uneasy after I watch it.
To be fair, that was mostly a dig at how VERY short Clara is.
In the Victorian episode with the Eleventh, when she couldn't reach the ladder, that told us about her height. When she was supposed to only use her legs, well, I interpret it differently. But I'm not going to argue that it's the only possible way.
And he got Matt Smith to strip down quite regularly. ;)
I love that little video for Children in Need with Matt losing his clothes, so funny :)
no subject
Well, at the time she was still attached to that weird frame. Of course she went on to kill him...
Later, everyone else seemed just to be frightened by her.
If any of the people drooling over her were faced with her in real life, trying to kill them, I'm sure their reaction would be different.
Exactly. Their goal is to "improve" human bodies so flat shoes should be obvious, also they never made women and men look different.
It's the shoes that show it up, funnily enough. The rest could almost be excused.
I agree. I wonder if Russell and Chris were satisfied by the result, or if the thought "it was wrong" came to them when they watched the episode, but it was too late. It's so obvious to us...
Chibnall doesn't mention it AT ALL. And RTD only as a joke. So it's entirely possible that they were just trying to put on a good show - they're there to 'sell' the show, not to point out flaws.
Children of Earth was a masterpiece but I think the best episode Davies has written and I've seen is probably Midnight.
We shall have to disagree. :) I never liked Midnight, but that's another discussion...
In the Victorian episode with the Eleventh, when she couldn't reach the ladder, that told us about her height. When she was supposed to only use her legs, well, I interpret it differently.
Fair nuff, to each their own.
I love that little video for Children in Need with Matt losing his clothes, so funny :)
I miss him still...
And sorry this reply is so late! Life just ate me.
no subject
You'd think they could have been more interesting with the design. And when I say 'interesting', I mean 'horrific, grotesque body horror'. XD Re-reading all this makes me wonder if this episode was on Moff's mind when he wrote Dark Water/Death in Heaven and put Danny as that half-converted Cyberman. There's nothing sexy about Danny there, it's pure horror and tragedy.
I would also prefer crack over Miracle Day and the evil space vagina.
no subject
*nods* There's not much conversion going on with Lisa really. Physically, I mean. Whereas you can see how Danny is welded into the suit. *shudders*
I would also prefer crack over Miracle Day and the evil space vagina.
The crack (the canon one, in S5, rather than the story type) ate Miracle Day and everything to do with it, and it never happened at all. :)
no subject
Exactly. It's not about how it looks with Danny, it's about how it feels, if that makes sense.
The crack (the canon one, in S5, rather than the story type) ate Miracle Day and everything to do with it, and it never happened at all. :)
Yes, good, accepted. Well done, Moff.
no subject
Totally. Of course he's also dead, but I just think about his face and recoil. The cyber suit feels like a violation. Which it doesn't with Lisa in the same way at all.
Yes, good, accepted. Well done, Moff.
He's been fixing ALL THE THINGS!