Chibnall and the metal bikini

[elisi]

So, when trying to think back on the new showrunner's previous work, one episode did of course stand out...

Now a cyber woman fighting a pterodactyl is probably the single most iconic moment of Torchwood, and as someone who likes my crack deep fried I rather adore it.

However, there is the question of the metal bikini, and at whose feet we shall lay that whole fiasco? Before decrying Chibnall as an evil sexist (have we been on this band wagon before? Why yes we have! If you are in charge of Doctor Who, it is self-evident that you hate women/all minority groups/anyone else you can think of) I thought I'd try to find out if the outfit was his idea, or if - like the case with Amy's skirt - it was something completely out of his hands. (Amy's short skirts were Karen Gillan's idea, and had nothing to do with Moffat.)

For anyone not familiar with the episode is centers around the fact that one of the characters, Ianto, has hidden his girlfriend, Lisa, in the Torchwood basement. The twist being that she's a part-converted cyberman [see the S2 finale of Doctor Who]. Why this is problematic should be evident from these images:





I couldn't find a good quality image of her feet, but those are cute little Cuban heels she's wearing, a million miles from the big stompy footwear cybermen are usually seen wearing.

As I don't have access to the shooting scripts, I instead watched the Declassified episode for 'Cyberwoman' (it's from 2007). I transcribed the relevant parts:

Here is RTD talking about Lisa's outfit:

"There is a very long history of sexy pneumatic hydraulic women, strangely, in Science Fiction, and we actually wanted to tap into that, and to give a Cyberman version of that, which is just irresistible."

[Cue scene of Japanese science guy perving over Lisa, while Ianto looks disgusted]

RTD cont: "Great, iconic imagery of that woman, trapped, in half a cyberman suit. Brilliant."

[Then there's some talk by the costume/props people about how she's half converted, and trying to figure out what's underneath the cybermen's shiny exterior. And the actress was quite taken with her outfit.]

Director James Strong: "It was so important for this episode that the Cyber Girl looked a) amazing, but also looked threatening and looked scary and looked formidable, but still looked sexy and looked great."

RTD: "There are a lot of men on the team who were absolutely determined to make that Cyber Woman costume as sexy as possible. I've got no idea what they mean. I'm the one sitting there going 'Couldn't she do with a nice little bikini bottom in case she gets too cold in this environment? Apparently it's very very sexy..."

[Then a section where the cast talk about how scary she is - to their credit not one of them mentions the word 'sexy' just that she was intimidating.]

Director: "I think Cyber Girl be the most iconic monster and villain in the entire series...

[montage of Cyber Woman & pterodactyl]

RTD: "The idea of having a pterodactyl fight a cyber woman made us laugh for about three weeks. Solidly."

So... Unless the shooting script has 'SEXY' underlined and highlighted, I don't think we can lay the metal bikini at Chibnall's door - it seems to have been a team effort, quite literally. And RTD very clearly found the whole thing hilarious.

To be honest it's quite weird watching it. Like - can't you hear yourselves? But it's very clear that they wanted A Sexy Cyborg, and A Sexy Cyborg is what we got. Whether we should haul up every man involved, or quite simply blame the sexism that permeates society (and that this episode is a perfect example and symptom of), I can't say.

Let's all just hope that at some point, someone took Chibnall aside and said: 'That metal bikini? Was truly terrible, never do it again.'

Although to be fair, Torchwood was at that point still at the jumping up and down going: 'Look! Look! I'm all adult and violent and grim and full of sexual content!!!' stage. And I guess nothing symbolises that more than the sexy cyborg...

Because, if I'm honest, I'm not really outraged*, I'm just nostalgic. It was stupid, but ridiculously so, in that very special Torchwood way: It was also the episode where Jack - quite literally - snogged Ianto back to life.

And I'd rather have had hundred more offensive cyber women, than Miracle Day. :(

They killed my show, and I'm still sad. So I guess that's my final thought:

Dear Chibnall, please make Doctor Who full of weird and wonderful crack, but without objectifying women. And I'm pretty sure you're on that already. Thank you.


ETA: PLEASE BE CIVIL. I realise this is a hornet's nest, but I have no axe to grind. I generally like everyone & everything. (Except Miracle Day.) /fandom's Pollyanna



*They all wanted her to be sexy, and not one of them seems to have spoken up against it. It's just quietly depressing, much like when you read about studies showing just how much women are discriminated against, still, in every way.

Comments

[owlboy]

I doubt very much he had the last word on it. That's just not how television production works.

Edit: Chibs also gets blamed for director decisions all the time that he couldn't possibly have had anything to do with-- see Pond Life and the people going apeshit over the sexism in that.

[elisi]

I doubt very much he had the last word on it. That's just not how television production works.
This is it. He doesn't mention it once, so it's much like Amy's skirts.

Edit: Chibs also gets blamed for director decisions all the time that he couldn't possibly have had anything to do with-- see Pond Life and the people going apeshit over the sexism in that.
Huh. I thought everyone just blamed Moffat.

[arcanetrivia]

I'm just amused that RTD doesn't appear to get why anyone would consider it sexy. Something about being on the other bus, or Time Lord, comes to mind...

[elisi]

RTD is a darling. He should possible have said something (as the only one who wasn't drooling), but hey ho. He was obviously finding the whole thing too funny.

[nostalgia]

Honestly while it is ridic and objectifying I can't quite shake the HILARITY of the whole concept. CYBERWOMAN FIGHTS DINOSAUR! WHILE COVERED IN BBQ SAUCE!

[elisi]

I KNOW!!

It's Torchwood in a nutshell. <3

[promethia_tenk]

I'm feeling quite pre-emptively defensive of Chibnall. But then, I think I've been doing that since season five.

It really threw me when Power of Three came along and other people liked him!

[elisi]

I'm feeling quite pre-emptively defensive of Chibnall. But then, I think I've been doing that since season five.
This still amuses me.

It really threw me when Power of Three came along and other people liked him!
Yeah, he was a handy punching bag for people...

Sidebar: Did you have Ianto down as an INFP?

[kaffy_r]

Well, my goodness. I shall stop blaming Chibnall for that.

Like - can't you hear yourselves?

Could they say "sexy" anymore times?

They all wanted her to be sexy, and not one of them seems to have spoken up against it. It's just quietly depressing, much like when you read about studies showing just how much women are discriminated against, still, in every way.

Yes. *sighs*

(Because sighing is better than ranting, at least right now.)

[elisi]

Well, my goodness. I shall stop blaming Chibnall for that.
*is pleased* My work here is done!

Could they say "sexy" anymore times?
Of course it's all edited together, but... no. Probably not.

(Because sighing is better than ranting, at least right now.)
I got that far, and just sort of gave up.

[geekslave.livejournal.com]

I honestly never really gave a second thought to the outfit or had a real problem with it.

I will agree with you that "Miracle Day" should be completely eradicated from canon.

Stacey

[elisi]

I honestly never really gave a second thought to the outfit or had a real problem with it.
Well, it's not like we're not used to seeing women dressed like that...

I will agree with you that "Miracle Day" should be completely eradicated from canon.
The crack ate it. You can't prove me wrong. And hey presto - it's gone! :)

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

I have nothing to add here except how I find it so damn funny that we agree on not so much wrt Jossverse and pretty much everything in Whoville. Brains are weird.

Oh one more thing- Christ, I miss Captain Jack.

[elisi]

I have nothing to add here except how I find it so damn funny that we agree on not so much wrt Jossverse and pretty much everything in Whoville. Brains are weird.
I've thought this too!

Oh one more thing- Christ, I miss Captain Jack.
Me tooooo! *sad face* Maybe Moffat will bring him back next year? Or Chibnall might? After all, Chibnall pretty much ran Torchwood, it'd make sense for him to bring back his main character...

[yourlibrarian]

Actually what stands out to me is that to them sexy is only something that happens when a woman is under-dressed. I'm pretty sure that, however much women like looking at men's bodies, that these two things are not equal by default to them. Which is lucky for men because they are very rarely as scantily dressed as women are.

I'm also rather disturbed by their discussion of how she looked threatening and scary depite being in that ridiculous outfit given that they cast a black actress in that role. At least in the U.S. that whole perception of people with dark skin leads to very tragic things like children being shot by the police and the assumption that they're much older than they are.

[elisi]

Actually what stands out to me is that to them sexy is only something that happens when a woman is under-dressed.
Hmmm. Good point. Although finding an actual cyberman sexy would be... difficult.

Which is lucky for men because they are very rarely as scantily dressed as women are.
True. But we're getting there, slowly. ;) (Hi there Poldark!) Of course the power balance is still not right, as men don't lose power by undressing, but still.

I'm also rather disturbed by their discussion of how she looked threatening and scary depite being in that ridiculous outfit given that they cast a black actress in that role.
I think this is somewhat of a cultural divide. She was scary because she was emotionless and super-strong. Not that we don't have issues of racism, but I don't think that played into it. (The actress didn't seem bothered by any of it, thinking that it was a pretty neat outfit.) Of course I don't know how it was perceived by black people, so if someone wants to weigh in, please do so. I can't speak for others.

[cynthia2015.livejournal.com]

Torchwood was at it's peak during series 2. I persevered until "Miracle Day".

There are two things to be considered:

(1) Men objectifying women. Sometimes they will find an excuse for it.

(2) Women who use their sexuality to manipulate a man.

When Danny was resurrected as a cyberman, the situation was depressing. With Lisa it is played differently. Except for that flashback of Ianto wailing in agony after Lisa is half converted. That bit was horrible.:(

Both RTD and Moffat admit that part of how they hire actors is based on a certain look or image for the character that they will portray. It could be misinterpreted with Moffat because Karen Gillian was a model. As if it was the main reason he hired her.

I heard Karen was suppose to wear trousers or pants because they are more practical. She suggested the short skirts with at least suitable foot wear which were boots.

Clara wore skirts and heels and in the episode Time Heist the Doctor tells her to change her shoes.

When my brother found out who the champion for series 5 was going to be, he gave me a look that said: Oh their going for a PYT. I lamely replied with: Shes Scottish!. That's different. But I have to admit I was kind of thinking the same thing.

I sometimes disagree with the way women are portrayed in Doctor Who but if I let it get to me, I would have stopped watching a long time ago.

I almost did with Torchwood but I was trying to be optimistic about the spin-off. I liked Tosh more than Gwen, even though the latter got more screen time.

I was wondering if you have ever watched the show Supernatural?.

[elisi]

Torchwood was at it's peak during series 2.
It was at its most Torchwood-y during S2. <3 Children of Earth was practically a master piece, but it wasn't the same show anymore. Miracle Day is one of the few things I deeply dislike.

When Danny was resurrected as a cyberman, the situation was depressing. With Lisa it is played differently.
*nods* Very different stories, with different aims.

It could be misinterpreted with Moffat because Karen Gillian was a model. As if it was the main reason he hired her.
This is particularly hilarious, because the first video he saw of her had some issue with the aspect ratio so he thought she was short and chubby. But he didn't care about her looks [or lack thereof], her performance was so good that he knew she was the one he wanted. And then he met her and she was tall and gorgeous and consisted of mostly legs...

I heard Karen was suppose to wear trousers or pants because they are more practical. She suggested the short skirts with at least suitable foot wear which were boots.
Yes, that sounds right. And hey, Amy owns her sexuality. She's confident and people aren't used to girls behaving like that.

Oh their going for a PYT.
Yeah, see above. ;)

I sometimes disagree with the way women are portrayed in Doctor Who but if I let it get to me, I would have stopped watching a long time ago.
The good parts outweigh the bad to such a margin that most other TV shows don't come near. Also, some people get hilariously angry at how the women are all hyper competent, moreso than the Doctor...

I almost did with Torchwood but I was trying to be optimistic about the spin-off. I liked Tosh more than Gwen, even though the latter got more screen time.
Torchwood was crack. Beautiful, delicious crack, and I loved it FAR too much. (And the fic was amazing... *deep sigh*)

I was wondering if you have ever watched the show Supernatural?.
Nope. But I've seen Women's Work.

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

Och...somehow, none of this suprises me. Feel for Chibnall though. some fans will likely not let that one go.

*HUGS*

[elisi]

I've been pondering the issue ever since the announcement, and thought I might as well address it head-on.

And hey, if they subject him to the same kind of lens that RTD & Moffat have been viewed through... Well, he's probably got thick skin.

[szinv.livejournal.com]

[elisi]

OWL!!!!!

[ragnarok-08.livejournal.com]

I never really gave second thought to that outfit, other than that it looks pretty ridiculous.

Yup, Miracle Day definitely is a sour note and I don't think of it as canon.

[elisi]

I never really gave second thought to that outfit, other than that it looks pretty ridiculous.
Well, if fandom can be offended, it will. So this is almost pre-emptive. :)

Yup, Miracle Day definitely is a sour note and I don't think of it as canon.
The crack ate it, and good riddance! (It was especially annoying because there were some really good ideas in there, they were just wasted.)

[dieastra.livejournal.com]

When I think of the episode "Cyberwoman", I don't think of THAT fight. Well, I think of a fight, but a different one. The two fights between Ianto and Jack, with so many emotions and tears flying around. Even after having seen it several times, it still gets to me and really touches me. I think that is some brilliant acting there by both, and I like this episode for that.

I guess why it gets to me so much is that I can't decide who is right and who is wrong. Both are right and have their reasons.

I certainly don't think it is the worst Torchwood episode. That honor for me goes to "Countryside" which I truly dislike yet so many people including the actors state it as their favorite. I really don't get why. Well, the beginning with the camping and everything, yes, and Ianto in jeans, I get that too, but then? Urrgh.

So, like geekslave, the outfit never really bothered me. I haven't yet bought a Cyberwoman action figure though. Simply because for the kind of stories I do, mostly with them doing private stuff in their off time, it rarely would get used. Maybe I should get her and the Blowfish for sentimental reasons. I think they are not very expensive...

[elisi]

but a different one. The two fights between Ianto and Jack, with so many emotions and tears flying around. Even after having seen it several times, it still gets to me and really touches me. I think that is some brilliant acting there by both, and I like this episode for that.
OOooh yes, I'm right there with you. But if I'd started talking about that I'd just have descended into shippiness. ;)

I guess why it gets to me so much is that I can't decide who is right and who is wrong. Both are right and have their reasons.
This. Shades of grey, I love it. (Torchwood is excellent at shades of grey.)

That honor for me goes to "Countryside" which I truly dislike yet so many people including the actors state it as their favorite. I really don't get why.
They do??? Really? How odd. But then David Tennant & Catherine Tate loved Donna's ending, because the acting was such a challenge/rewarding.

Maybe I should get her and the Blowfish for sentimental reasons. I think they are not very expensive...
<3 My favourite use of Lisa in that outfit is in Torchwood Babiez, where Ianto carries round a Lisa doll. You can glimpse it in my icon.

[spikewriter]

To be honest, I rolled my eyes quite a bit over the Cyberwoman when the episode aired and it's not something I hold against Chibnall. First, I thought Torchwood was trying too hard to be "adult." (I think the second series was much better.) Second, I wondered if he'd invoked the robot from Metropolis and someone had decided she had to show more skin.

:: shrug :: I guess we'll see in a year.

[promethia_tenk]

Second, I wondered if he'd invoked the robot from Metropolis and someone had decided she had to show more skin.
From RTD bringing up the history of sexy sci-fi robots, that sounds like a possibility to me.

Don't judge by one episode

[(Anonymous)]

Especially since we now have the background knowledge of the "team writing" on the outfit in question, and knowing RTD's obsession with making EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE on Torchwood SEXY AND DARK AND SEXY AND EDGY AND DID I MENTION SEXY (resulting in the "adult" show being completely ridiculous most of the time -and not in a DW/Star Trek way, aka *light-hearted* camp, and when we are serious, we are serious, and we will make you believe in the pizza monster despite everything, we'll make you *feel* for the thing, dammit!- and therefore not for me: You can't have both !Grimdark! and that campy at the same time; or if you can, *you* are doing it wrong), I think we can let Chibnall off for the time being.


Besides, people, the man has written so many OTHER things: He wrote for Life on Mars, many other Torchwood episodes, Law & Order: UK, all of Broadchurch, and many Doctor Who episodes, all except one under Moffat too.

Re: Don't judge by one episode

[elisi]

knowing RTD's obsession with making EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE on Torchwood SEXY AND DARK AND SEXY AND EDGY AND DID I MENTION SEXY
Torchwood = Queer as Folk w/aliens

I think we can let Chibnall off for the time being.
Yes, and I'm glad that my little poke into the background confirmed that.

Besides, people, the man has written so many OTHER things: He wrote for Life on Mars, many other Torchwood episodes, Law & Order: UK, all of Broadchurch, and many Doctor Who episodes, all except one under Moffat too.
Yup, broad portfolio - which is why he got the job. :)

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Hmh yeah, it does sound like it was more RTD and the production side of it that got all excited about the Cyberwoman design, rather than it being scripted that way. To be honest I was never particularly offended by it though, although obviously it gets pretty silly when you think about why logically a partly-done Cyberman conversion would turn out that way. But then I was completely out of step with popular opinion when it came to that episode anyway! I found the confrontations between Jack /Ianto and Ianto/Lisa pretty powerful, yet there seemed to be very widespread mocking of Gareth's acting being really O/T afterwards, and everything about the episode being just awful.

[elisi]

Hmh yeah, it does sound like it was more RTD and the production side of it that got all excited about the Cyberwoman design, rather than it being scripted that way.
I suspected that might be the case, and I'm glad to have been right. Ish. It's kinda sad to see them all so excited about how 'sexy' she is, but what's done is done.

But then I was completely out of step with popular opinion when it came to that episode anyway! I found the confrontations between Jack /Ianto and Ianto/Lisa pretty powerful
I remember disliking it initially, mostly because I was already shipping Jack & Ianto, and thought this would ruin any chances. How wrong I was. And then with 'Fragments' in S2 showing the background to the Cyberwoman fallout, I like it very much - the outfit apart.

[verdande-mi.livejournal.com]

Totally stupid and unnecessary. And reading the transcript is disheartening.

And why anyone, man or not, would think an elite soldier (and that is what they should see and understand her as) would consider wearing such an outfit is just ridiculous. In dressing her like that they undermined the whole nature of the cybermen to begin with. I doubt they have a concept of "sexy" at all.

I can understand wanting to revoke images of sci-fi history, but it could have at least have been done well and it could have been done without the objectifying male gaze and it is possible to sexy without being largely naked.

Also re snogging Ianto back to life…I never understood why the both of them seemed to regard that as kiss in Countrycide….

It makes no sense to me why they decided on only two seasons with the original team – I miss them!

[elisi]

And reading the transcript is disheartening.
Yeah... :(

And why anyone, man or not, would think an elite soldier (and that is what they should see and understand her as) would consider wearing such an outfit is just ridiculous.
Well, it's supposed to be what's underneath the main casing. I can understand the concept, and it's not a bad one, they just shouldn't have gone for sexy as their leitmotif.

I can understand wanting to revoke images of sci-fi history, but it could have at least have been done well and it could have been done without the objectifying male gaze and it is possible to sexy without being largely naked.
To which the only reply is... Torchwood. To be fair, Torchwood was pretty equal opportunity, when it came to objectifying people, but that one went a bit too far.

Also re snogging Ianto back to life…I never understood why the both of them seemed to regard that as kiss in Countrycide….
They did? I remember Ianto saying that Lisa was the last person he kissed. Although it most definitely WAS a kiss (Jack/Ianto, I mean). Nothing close to CPR.

It makes no sense to me why they decided on only two seasons with the original team – I miss them!
Me too! *sad* RTD thought that Torchwood 'could be anything', but he was wrong. It worked very well as it was, and then he broke it.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

The reason why the Cyberwoman costume gets such strong reactions from some people, including me, is that it is very obviously influenced (to the point of being virtually a direct copy of a couple of images) by the work of the Japanese BDSM and cyborg-fetish erotic artist Hajime Sorayama. (He does do some SFW work, but be careful searching where anyone puritanical might see, or if you have issues with female-submissive BDSM images, which can get quite extreme.) Even for an "adult" series, being so blatantly influenced by outright porn is going a bit far.

[elisi]

is that it is very obviously influenced (to the point of being virtually a direct copy of a couple of images) by the work of the Japanese BDSM and cyborg-fetish erotic artist Hajime Sorayama.
I did not know that. Hmmm. It was always problematic (hate the word, but it's accurate in this instance), but that makes it worse. :(

[alumfelga.livejournal.com]

I think that outfit changed my reaction to the episode. I was pro-Ianto and against-Jack for the whole time, as I didn't see a Cyberman in Lisa, just a woman trapped in that horrible outfit, for some men's pleasure (even if it was only that one man and the Torchwood team wasn't objectifying her). I initially thought it was because of Doctor Who message, and the Doctor's "always try to save someone" attitude, but now I believe I'd be conflicted about her - as I'm sure we as the audience were supposed to be - if she was a proper half-Cyberman.

Good point with the shoes, by the way. Some would argue that the costume was an imagination about how the inside of the cyber shell might have look line but the shoes are without doubts a proof that it was all about making her sexy.

I couldn't believe they've all actually said what you've kindly written down so I watched it myself. On the guys defense, Chris said Davies presented him the story, and at the end he added, "oh, and there's a Cybergirl in the basement", so I believe the emotional touch was always their top interest. It doesn't make the whole thing right, of course. It's been completely unlogical in regard to Cybermen and it feasted on men's fear of women comfortable about their sexuality (so they make them dangerous), and that trope should become a history.

They all wanted her to be sexy, and not one of them seems to have spoken up against it. It's just quietly depressing, much like when you read about studies showing just how much women are discriminated against, still, in every way.
Exactly. Just imagine a man in a cyberoutfit that hardly covers his man parts and let him walk like that for the entire episode.I'm sure no one would think that would be a good idea.


I've never watched The Miracle Day. The first two series were good enough to get me to the third one, which was my goal, and I don't want to ruin my good memories (a broken heart is another story) after Children On Earth by watching the last season. I heard some people saying it wasn't that bad, but I've heard people saying they disliked Children On Earth so I suppose there's the whole range of opinions about everything :)

Amy's skirts might have been Karen's idea (although I still think someone should have said to her it's ridicolous; it made me have trouble to suspend my disbelief - in the world where you need to run so often and your life often depends on whether you were fast enough, you learn that any trousers are better than mini skirts) but it's been Moffat who wrote her as "Legs" and kept reminding us of her long after she was gone (Twelve's "Sometimes I miss Amy" in 8x01, Clara's "she's all legs!"). However, let me add that I don't blame him for all sexist elements on the show (I'm sure he hasn't written that long shot on Amy's body in "Eleventh Hour") and I agree with you that it's mostly because the society we live in that allows things like that. We're far away from men and women being treated as equal.

[sea_thoughts]

The short skirts were Karen's idea but she also insisted on having trainers or flat-heeled boots to run in.

[sea_thoughts]

Torchwood was at that point still at the jumping up and down going: 'Look! Look! I'm all adult and violent and grim and full of sexual content!!!' stage. And I guess nothing symbolises that more than the sexy cyborg...

You'd think they could have been more interesting with the design. And when I say 'interesting', I mean 'horrific, grotesque body horror'. XD Re-reading all this makes me wonder if this episode was on Moff's mind when he wrote Dark Water/Death in Heaven and put Danny as that half-converted Cyberman. There's nothing sexy about Danny there, it's pure horror and tragedy.

I would also prefer crack over Miracle Day and the evil space vagina.

[elisi]

Re-reading all this makes me wonder if this episode was on Moff's mind when he wrote Dark Water/Death in Heaven and put Danny as that half-converted Cyberman. There's nothing sexy about Danny there, it's pure horror and tragedy.
*nods* There's not much conversion going on with Lisa really. Physically, I mean. Whereas you can see how Danny is welded into the suit. *shudders*

I would also prefer crack over Miracle Day and the evil space vagina.
The crack (the canon one, in S5, rather than the story type) ate Miracle Day and everything to do with it, and it never happened at all. :)