::eyeroll::

[elisi]

Spoilery preview of S8 issue 4.

Dude! Amy *saved* Warren before Willow killed him? WTF? Apart from all the enormous issues it raises (what about The First? How did Willow not *notice* that she wasn't the one killing him (/making him disappear)? What about Willow's whole S7 arc? What does Amy see in a misogynist pig who kills girls for fun? Etc. etc.), then there is this (which has been bothering me since Amy was first revealed): How come they didn't get out of Sunnydale before the apocalypse? Even ordinary people could feel that something bad was coming and left town, so surely a smart girl like Amy would get the hell out before the whole place collapsed?

It doesn't make sense!!!! Did working on Wonder Woman break something vital in Joss' brain? I know he never cared all that much about 'how things worked', bending the rules so he could get to the emotional part, but this is... *throws hands up*

Thank the powers above that this never made it to the screen!

Comments

[shapinglight]

I agree. I'm really annoyed. Joss has pretty much ruined the Dark Willow arc in my opinion.

[elisi]

I want an icon that says 'Willow is a murderer' or 'My Willow kills people' or something like... Or maybe one of D'Hoffryn talking about the co-worker (Lloyd? I can't remember exactly) who has a sketch of the flaying on his wall...

Anyway comic!Willow is clearly not the *real* Willow, since her eyes are blue.

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

You've lined up, precisely, pretty much all the problems I had with those five pages. And just throw in the fact that Dawn has a familial-type closeness to Willow now? I mean, I suppose it's been long enough, but I'm pretty sure the last time we saw them, Dawn was still not on very good terms with Willow at all. It just seems a bit out of the blue and sudden.

[elisi]

You've lined up, precisely, pretty much all the problems I had with those five pages.
It would appear that most of us are on the same page...

It just seems a bit out of the blue and sudden.
Not to mention the fact that no one has apparently *seen* Willow for months.

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

It's like very bad fanfic. And since when is Willow like a mom to "Dawnie?" I still haven't even read the comics - just these little snippets - and nothing I see makes me want to rush out and get them.

[elisi]

It's like very bad fanfic.
Yup. Those that have a disclaimer along the lines of 'Set post-Chosen, but Spike never died and Faith is still in prison and Angel and Wesley are having an affair...'

nothing I see makes me want to rush out and get them.
Same here. I've downloaded them all, but am not impresed. I'm still holding out hope for S6 of AtS though. Joss won't be the main writer! *g*

[liliaeth]

Honestly, I'm convinced that the only reason he had Warren come back, is so that his 'sweet little Willow' hasn't got Warren's death on her conscience. She's his favorite little Mary Sue, so of course he wants her blameless and easily forgiven for whatever the hell she does wrong.

[elisi]

Honestly, I'm convinced that the only reason he had Warren come back, is so that his 'sweet little Willow' hasn't got Warren's death on her conscience.
I'm thinking along the same lines, sadly... although I'm sure part of it was just 'wouldn't it be cool if we brought back Warren? And he was all skinless?' (etc)

[mefnord.livejournal.com]

Oh my.

You practically said it all. But HOW can Joss do this? Retcon a whole character arc? And Amy had been watchin' Willow the whole time? WTF? Why? How?

And, Joss? TARA was Dawn's mother figure. Sheesh.

[elisi]

Sheesh.
Wordy McWord. I never expected much from the comics, but...

[sdwolfpup.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure about the whole Willow and Dawn stuff (although if she's feeling as estranged from Buffy as she seems in the comics it makes sense she would've turned to Willow, IMO), but I just have to say that I don't think the fact that Warren didn't die has any bearing on Willow's S7 arc. I don't think it really matters whether he died or not: the intent to kill him was there and she did try to destroy the world and those are the things that she was coming to terms with during S7. The fact that Warren is or isn't dead doesn't change that, IMO, YMMV etc.

[elisi]

although if she's feeling as estranged from Buffy as she seems in the comics it makes sense she would've turned to Willow, IMO
I can sort of see that, but just sketching it in with 2 lines (and mentioning the time when Buffy was dead, which makes no sense) isn't really enough.

The fact that Warren is or isn't dead doesn't change that, IMO, YMMV etc.
Oh I see what you mean, absolutely. But - it absolves her of her guilt from *our* POV, if we take the comics as canon (she meant to kill him, but luckily she didn't - just like Buffy meant to kill Faith in 'Graduation Day', but didn't. Is Buffy a murderer?). And it strikes me that Warren was brought back only because Joss could which is not a good enough reason. Also the entire thing is utterly ridiculous, which is my main gripe.

*goes back to reading fabulous fanfic with clever plots and proper characterisation*

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

Just one more reason,IMO, why the series should have ended with Chosen. "shakes head"

[elisi]

Just one more reason,IMO, why the series should have ended with Chosen.
It did. (I need to upload that '7 seasons of Buffy' icon I think.)

[mikeygs.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's bad. Horrible, even. Worst of all, it's lame.

It's like I said in molly_may's LJ a while back, the comics really seem to be disregarding the show, particularly the last 2 years. Before it was characterization (nothing from S7 seems to have stuck at all) and now he's basically trying to do away with the actual events. What's next, Xander didn't really lose an eye? Joyce was just faking the whole being dead thing?

Joss moaned for 3 years after the show was over that he didn't have any ideas left about Buffy. Turns out, he wasn't kidding.

[elisi]

What's next, Xander didn't really lose an eye?
I was (happily) surprised that he only had one eye when I saw the first issue - I was fully prepared for Willow to have given him a magical one... Although maybe that's still to come? It's such a nice cliche!

Turns out, he wasn't kidding.
Amen, brother. *goes back to writing fic*

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I really don’t think it’s that difficult. In reverse order:-

How come they didn't get out of Sunnydale before the apocalypse?
Because they though their side was going to win?

What does Amy see in a misogynist pig who kills girls for fun?
Amy fancied Larry before he came out. Misogynist bad boy with super powers? Does it for some girls. Also a big case of my enemy’s enemy. Amy likes anyone who might take Willow down a peg

What about Willow's whole S7 arc?
Huh? You mean because she only flayed Warren alive rather than killing him she’s nothing to feel guilty about? Besides trying to destroy the world.

How did Willow not *notice* that she wasn't the one killing him (/making him disappear)?
Would she care? She was bored of the whole thing.

What about The First?
You mean how could it appear as Warren? How do you define death? The First could take Spike’s form and he’s undead not dead so strictly I guess the rule must be that it can’t take the form of the living (or the molecularly pasty in Buffy’s case). Warren was in shock, medically a state of blood supply being insufficient. Very similar in fact to the condition a person has to reach to be turned, if we’re to believe Darla (drain me until the heart starts to slow). It’s rather neat when you think about it. Warren’s a case of convergent vampirism.

[elisi]

Because they though their side was going to win?
As in Buffy's side? That was rather optimistic... esp considering that Amy (and Warren) had nothing but contempt for her.

Also a big case of my enemy’s enemy. Amy likes anyone who might take Willow down a peg
Oh yeah - that's actually the easiest part. Except for the whole following-him-around-and-saving-his-life which is *still* ridiculous. Seriously, if I came across it in a fic I'd probably stop reading.

You mean because she only flayed Warren alive rather than killing him she’s nothing to feel guilty about?
"I kill people Giles." She's a murderer - like Spike and Andrew and Faith and Anya etc. It's part of who she is and ret-conning that now feels, well, cheap. Sorry. Yes intent counts for a lot, but Buffy *intended* to kill Faith - does that make her a murderer?

Would she care?
I should think so! She was avenging her True Love's murder!

How do you define death?
Heart stopped beating, no breath etc. Like Buffy and Spike and Jonathan.

Very similar in fact to the condition a person has to reach to be turned, if we’re to believe Darla (drain me until the heart starts to slow)
Yes, but then the person *dies*! You can't even tell if a body is going to rise. It's possible that *Amy* killed him, and then brought him back to life, mystically or something, but it's hopelessly vague. V. sloppy writing!

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

If Warren didn't die then the First couldn't have appeared as him. So Andrew couldn't have been persuaded to kill Jonathan. So Jonathan didn't die. And the whole of S7 couldn't have been anything like we saw on screen!

The comics cannot be canon. Joss saying that they are doesn't make it so. Did he even watch any S7 episodes other than 'Chosen'?

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

The comics cannot be canon. Joss saying that they are doesn't make it so. Did he even watch any S7 episodes other than 'Chosen'?

The thrashing of the rotten season arcs and the astonishingly bad setups in End Of Days indicates that Joss did not, in fact, watch any S7 episodes between Lessons and Chosen. It's entirely justifiable; otherwise he couldn't have had time to give us all that Firefly. (A lousy 15 episodes!)

The very plot of Chosen should be enough to indicate that the writer wasn't familiar with what came before in more than a superficial way.

Instead of cutting off canon at the comics, could we maybe cut it off right after the closing credits of Touched?

[awmp.livejournal.com]

*whistles*

[elisi]

Nice! (And also - fast!) Thanks lots and lots - now I just have to decide which icons to get rid of (since as usual I am up to my limit. *sob*).

*smooch*

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Joss and consistency = unmixy. Obviously his season 8 story demands Willow-the-innocent. Joss is radically retconning Willow, making her white and fluffy.

I told from the very beginning that season 8 has distinct season 1 feel. The more we delve into the story the more season 1 it becomes. Innocent heroes. High school enemies. Black-and-white situations.

[elisi]

Joss is radically retconning Willow, making her white and fluffy.
Last night I had a thought - maybe Willow will have to kill Warren (again). That might make the story tolerable... but I'm not holding my breath.

The more we delve into the story the more season 1 it becomes. Innocent heroes. High school enemies. Black-and-white situations.
I'm looking forward to issue 5.

[prophecygirrl.livejournal.com]

I'm more upset about the "Will is like a Mom to me" thing than the Warren thing. Because it's OOC for Dawn, and there is no worse sin for me. Tara was like a Mom; Willow got her in a car crash.

[elisi]

Because it's OOC for Dawn, and there is no worse sin for me. Tara was like a Mom; Willow got her in a car crash.
Also one of the best things in 'Chosen' was how Dawn and Buffy finally really got on. I *loved* that.

[ruuger]

And you know, it's seriously starting to look like it will be Dawn, not Buffy, who will eventually rescue Willow. Possibly with the help of an army of slayers lead by Xander.

...while Buffy sits at home in her sexy negligee and thinks about how much she misses sex.

I'm just so tired of this whole comic right now. And feeling a terrible urge to run a "Buffy is the hero, damnit!" ficathon.

[elisi]

...while Buffy sits at home in her sexy negligee and thinks about how much she misses sex.
If we're lucky she'll be wearing some of her ugly, but comfortable clothes instead... *cries*

And feeling a terrible urge to run a "Buffy is the hero, damnit!" ficathon.
Would you? I'd sign up - even though I never do ficathons!

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Um... Wow. That's really lame.

So now The First makes even less sense with the I-see-dead-people, and Dawn, who is what now, 17, 18? Apparenly can't exist without some mother figure who's not Buffy. Weak.

To be honest, the whisked-away-at-the-last-minute plot for Warren could've been clever had it not a) blown too many plot points in S7 to make it workable b) made a major, omniscient-style villain out of Amy, who'd been minor league at best (although you could actually say this about The First itself, so maybe that's not a new critique to be leveling). Ethan would've made sense IMHO, yet aren't we still waiting to hear about how he fits into all this, how he hooked up with Amy, etc.? Too slow, Joss. Too convoluted. I'll lay odds now on it never being fully explained past what you see here.

And so far, it's still the Xander and Willow show.

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

whisked-away-at-the-last-minute plot for Warren could've been clever

What would be wrong with him being raised by Amy in some kind of nasty side effects reanimation spell? That way he would have been dead, Amy would be established as much stronger, there wouldn't be any logic trouble with where Warren really was and what Amy was doing during The Killer In Me.

There would still be the problem of what Amy sees in Warren.

But I think Joss just doesn't care about world logic or consistency of story anymore. Why should he put any effort into it?

[copykween.livejournal.com]

Ack....this is just...terrible.

THIS is the best that Joss could come up with in the several years of hiatus? Oy.

I suppose I'll continue to torture myself with read this debacle of a comic as long as folks on my flist (i.e. fab folks such as YOU! hee) provide scans.....and SHUDDER at the thought of THIS being Joss's idea of canon. *whines*

[elisi]

THIS is the best that Joss could come up with in the several years of hiatus? Oy.
Word. I wasn't expecting the world - but I *was* expecting something new and hopefully interesting. I feel... betrayed I think.

and SHUDDER at the thought of THIS being Joss's idea of canon. *whines*
Indeed. Continuing the story is one thing - retconning the *show* is something else altogether. I'm hoping Marti will write some of the issues - I'm figuring she'd be brilliant! Just look at S6!

[ringthebells]

Oh man. With issue 3 I was finally warming up to the comics, but those first four pages look ... gah. Awful. For all the reasons you said.

[elisi]

but those first four pages look ... gah. Awful.
Joss should be banned from messing with the show. Full stop.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

*sigh*

Dude! Amy *saved* Warren before Willow killed him? WTF?
Interesting plot twist, in my opinion... especially the bit about who supplied the flashy lights effect. I hadn't considered that possibility.

what about The First?
Notice how Warren says that "bored now" were the last words he heard in his human existence? Whatever he is now, he isn't human... the human called Warren Mears is dead.

How did Willow not *notice* that she wasn't the one killing him
Because she was not only bored now, but arrogantly confident of her new powers. (Note that overconfidence is also a failing she's showing in S8). She zapped him, then turned to gloat to Buffy before leaving. The idea that someone might intervene magically never even occurred to her.

What about Willow's whole S7 arc?
Yeah. I mean, she insulted, belittled, threatened and betrayed all her friends, killed one human (Rack), brutally tortured another, skinned him alive and believed she'd killed him (Warren), tried to kill Buffy, tortured Giles, and then tried to burn up the entire world and kill six billion people. But she didn't actually murder Warren, so she's got nothing to feel guilty about now, has she?

What does Amy see in a misogynist pig who kills girls for fun?
From the sound of it, she sees an enemy of Willow, and that's all she needs. Although I'll remind you that Buffy herself seems to have a weakness for men who [used to] kill girls for fun...

How come they didn't get out of Sunnydale before the apocalypse?
Like aycheb says - because she thought The First would win, and she wanted to be on the winning side.

And about the Willow being like a mom to Dawn thing... well, if I was writing it I might have said big sister - but that's Buffy's role - or cool aunt. But honestly, it's not such a leap. Yes, Dawn mostly saw Tara as her primary mother figure in season 6 - but Dawn's reaction to Willow and Tara splitting up and reconciling was played exactly as if it were Dawn's parents splitting up and reconciling.

Dawn saw Willow as her parent, in other words. And she clearly can't describe her as her dad, so mom it is. Also, I suspect a certain amount of transference and acting out going on... Dawn is clearly not on best terms with Buffy, Tara and her real mother are both dead - so the only adult female caregiver Dawn has is Willow.



In conclusion - I'm really glad Joss is writing this, not only because it's fun and provokes lots of interesting debates (lie this), but mostly because he dares to do things fanfic writers wouldn't.

That's the benefit of it being canon, rather than a derivative work. ;)

[elisi]

*sigh*
Heh. Lots of good points - most of which I knew you'd bring! I'm not really disputing any of them, so will just pick out a few:

Notice how Warren says that "bored now" were the last words he heard in his human existence? Whatever he is now, he isn't human... the human called Warren Mears is dead.
Yes, I did notice that. So who killed him? How did he die? How was he 'brought back to life'? I'll bet an AU High School Mpreg fic that we'll never find out! thedeadlyhook and owenthurman have some very sound points here about how the thing could have been handled far better and without ruining the continuity.

But she didn't actually murder Warren, so she's got nothing to feel guilty about now, has she?
Main problem - and a lot of people have mentioned this already - is that we all know that Willow is Joss' favourite, and it seems as though he's trying to whitewash her. Personally I'm praying very hard that she'll have to kill Warren (again).

But honestly, it's not such a leap.
Yes it is. Willow and Dawn were never on the best of terms, and no one has seen Willow for what - a year? How exactly is Willow a caregiver? Also I'm just tired of Buffy and Dawn not getting on. It's old. (Also Dawn is too old to be so... childish.)

That's the benefit of it being canon, rather than a derivative work. ;)
No - Joss is now throwing the blue sand all over the sadnbox, mixing it up with the golden sand and turning a lot of it grey. I was never thrilled about wanting to set Buffy's future in stone (to quote yourself: Which is, of course, why she smiles at the end of the series... because she's not alone, and for the first time since she was 15 she genuinely feels that she's got her whole life ahead of her, and she's free to do what she wants to do, and not what her Sacred Destiny compels her to do...), but ret-conning perfectly good canon for the sake of a not terribly enticing story is... disappointing. I didn't expect the comics to be *great*, but I expected more than we're getting.

mostly because he dares to do things fanfic writers wouldn't
On no. Fanfic writers are doing this stuff all the time! That's the *point* of fanfic after all - exploring all the infinite 'what ifs'. OK, no one has done this *particular* story, but that hardly makes it 'OMG fantastic!' I wanted something new - and all we're getting so far is a rehash of old issues. And The Cult of the Beautiful Sunset which has been rather MIA recently (yes I know they're funding Amy and Warren, but-). Now take Three Deep: A virtual season being written by a whole bunch of the most talented writers in fandom. It's not perfect (I have issues with Buffy's characteriation in particular), but for sheer scope, depth, world building, plot and ambition there's pretty much nothing like it.

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

ohh God I thnik I want to cry but it's too ridiculous so, I can't help but stare and nervously giggle.
I just came to the conclusionthat he didn't watch any of S6 beyond OMWF he's probably only heard the rumors that Willow Killed Warren, or this is happenming in a complete different dimension and someday we'll know what really whappen To OUR scoobies.

[elisi]

ohh God I thnik I want to cry but it's too ridiculous so, I can't help but stare and nervously giggle.
At least it should hopefully make more people realise that there's no way these things are canon!

and someday we'll know what really whappen To OUR scoobies.
Ha! Well said. :)

[molly_may]

::facepalm::

You know, if this had been revealed in S7, I would probably be able to accept it. But at this point, it's a five year old retcon. It's inconsistent with what we've previously known to be true, and on top of that, it's just lame.

And holy crap, I'm sick of the Dawn/Buffy estrangement plot. I don't even care if it makes sense (it doesn't after S7, but whatever); I'm just tired of it.

bending the rules so he could get to the emotional part, but this is..

I'm absolutely willing to handwave over any number of plot holes if the characterization and emotions are handled in a powerful way, but, what's frustrating about this is that it's emotional stuff we've already dealt with. Willow/Warren was resolved in "The Killer in Me", Buffy/Dawn was handled throughout S7. Why are we backtracking? Can't the characters experience anything new?

[elisi]

::facepalm::
That pretty much sums it up. I have nothing to add to your comment - I'm quite simply nodding along.

Oh one thing - so far there's not been a single vampire. Isn't Buffy suppossed to *slay* those? Or did I miss something somewhere? ruuger was suggesting running a 'Buffy is the hero, dammit!' ficathon. I sincerely hope she does!

[kathyh]

I think stormwreath makes some very good points about the Warren and Amy thing. I don't like it too much but I'm not going to judge it just on the basis of the first few pages of issue 4. What is pissing me off more is the "Willow is like a mom" thing, which may have been true while Buffy was dead but sure as hell wasn't true in Season 7. Dawn may have been saying that to deliberately hurt Buffy, but I'm a little tired ("bored now") of the Dawn doesn't think Buffy loves her enough plotline. It's getting very old now and Dawn has plenty of other issues (keyness) that I think Joss could be exploring more productively.

[elisi]

I don't like it too much but I'm not going to judge it just on the basis of the first few pages of issue 4.
It's just rather clumsy - read thedeadlyhook and owen_thurman's discussion.

It's getting very old now and Dawn has plenty of other issues (keyness) that I think Joss could be exploring more productively.
Amen.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

About Willow being like Dawn's mom. I think Dawn feels like that because last I've seen of the show, it was Xander and Willow who were helping out Dawn when she's upset or physically injured, not Buffy, who was more focused on the mission and Spike. And we don't know what happened in that year and a half, what made Dawn and Buffy grow more apart and for Dawn and Willow to grow closer.

[elisi]

it was Xander and Willow who were helping out Dawn when she's upset or physically injured, not Buffy, who was more focused on the mission and Spike.
I guess. Still... it just doesn't work very well. And Willow's been MIA for like a year. *sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

Oy..my brain was shot when I read that. I didn't realize that Amy had sent a spell to take Warren away. Though it would make sense, for the episode involving Amy where she put a glamour on Willow that made her look like Warren.

[kitmarlowescot2.livejournal.com]

Chit, that's me above, forgot I logged out.