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::eyeroll::
Spoilery preview of S8 issue 4.
Dude! Amy *saved* Warren before Willow killed him? WTF? Apart from all the enormous issues it raises (what about The First? How did Willow not *notice* that she wasn't the one killing him (/making him disappear)? What about Willow's whole S7 arc? What does Amy see in a misogynist pig who kills girls for fun? Etc. etc.), then there is this (which has been bothering me since Amy was first revealed): How come they didn't get out of Sunnydale before the apocalypse? Even ordinary people could feel that something bad was coming and left town, so surely a smart girl like Amy would get the hell out before the whole place collapsed?
It doesn't make sense!!!! Did working on Wonder Woman break something vital in Joss' brain? I know he never cared all that much about 'how things worked', bending the rules so he could get to the emotional part, but this is... *throws hands up*
Thank the powers above that this never made it to the screen!
Dude! Amy *saved* Warren before Willow killed him? WTF? Apart from all the enormous issues it raises (what about The First? How did Willow not *notice* that she wasn't the one killing him (/making him disappear)? What about Willow's whole S7 arc? What does Amy see in a misogynist pig who kills girls for fun? Etc. etc.), then there is this (which has been bothering me since Amy was first revealed): How come they didn't get out of Sunnydale before the apocalypse? Even ordinary people could feel that something bad was coming and left town, so surely a smart girl like Amy would get the hell out before the whole place collapsed?
It doesn't make sense!!!! Did working on Wonder Woman break something vital in Joss' brain? I know he never cared all that much about 'how things worked', bending the rules so he could get to the emotional part, but this is... *throws hands up*
Thank the powers above that this never made it to the screen!
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As in Buffy's side? That was rather optimistic... esp considering that Amy (and Warren) had nothing but contempt for her.
Well, yes and if they weren't on Buffy's side, which side would that put them on...
Also a big case of my enemy’s enemy. Amy likes anyone who might take Willow down a peg
Oh yeah - that's actually the easiest part. Except for the whole following-him-around-and-saving-his-life which is *still* ridiculous. Seriously, if I came across it in a fic I'd probably stop reading.
True, stalker behaviour not so likely to feature in the love conquers all genre. Although creepy love better than no love.
"I kill people Giles." She's a murderer - like Spike and Andrew and Faith and Anya etc. It's part of who she is and ret-conning that now feels, well, cheap. Sorry. Yes intent counts for a lot, but Buffy *intended* to kill Faith - does that make her a murderer?
Willow believed she succeeded. And there are things worse than death as Angelus might say.
Would she care?
I should think so! She was avenging her True Love's murder!
"Bored Now."
Heart stopped beating, no breath etc. Like Buffy and Spike and Jonathan.
Buffy's heart still beats.
It's possible that *Amy* killed him, and then brought him back to life, mystically or something, but it's hopelessly vague. V. sloppy writing!
But as you kept telling the newsgroup good writng isn't detailed mystico-biological exposition it's about the themes and the emotions.
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Hey - maybe if we look *really* hard at the battle scenes in 'Chosen' we can see Amy and Warren somewhere on a ledge with a large tub of popcorn... *g*
Although creepy love better than no love.
'Spose. And a lot of people guessed it'd be Warren, so the potential was obviously there.
Willow believed she succeeded.
*My* Willow did succeeed. (Sorry - it's just lame. As others have said, why couldn' she just have resurrected him? Maybe as a consequence of the TKiM spell? That would have been far neater and made a *lot* more sense.)
"Bored Now."
Still...
Buffy's heart still beats.
Buffy was *dead* for 147 days. Actually before that she died for a few minutes and the next slayer was called. It doesn't matter if the person comes back to life - real or magical - it's about dying.
good writng isn't detailed mystico-biological exposition it's about the themes and the emotions.
But that doesn't mean I'm prepared to just accept *anything*! Heck AYW is infuriating because hardly anything makes sense. And this storyline is worse -
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And Warren was dying until Amy "saved him," a very interesting choice of words. Dru saved Spike, Spike tried to save his mother, Darla saved Angel. I haven't been inhaling (viewing the previews) so I missed the point stormwreath made below about the end of Warren's *human* existence but it comes across very much as if you actually read the comic, the point being made is that Amy saved him by ending his human life and turning him into something he might think less mediocre.
Apart from simply asserting the badness (a common tactic) thedeadlyhook makes two points One (a) that previous canon is being contradicted to which, see above it isn't, if you read the comic instead of just skimming it to find things to be outraged over. Two (b) that it makes Amy appear omniscient, a classic straw man argument very similar to attempts to discredit the plotting in AYW by claiming that Spike can't be the Doctor because the Doctor is an International Arms Dealer :-) The episode never states that and patently *shows* Spike's role to be that of an opportuinistic petty criminal. Amy sneaking Warren away isn't omnicience it's opportunism taking advantage of Willow's arrogance, a weakness that's been pointed out repeatedly. It's like a theme.
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Amy sneaking Warren away isn't omnicience it's opportunism taking advantage of Willow's arrogance
Exactly! Warren says it himself - Amy was spying on Willow, and took an interest in Warren simply because Willow was after him.
And we already know from 'The Killer In Me' that Amy knew the exact circumstances under which Warren shot Buffy and Tara, because she teleported Kennedy back to the exact spot Buffy was standing... and that she knew about Willow's world-ending attempt, even though only Buffy, Dawn, Anya, Giles and of course Xander (and anyone they subsequently told) ought to have known about it.
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It's all clever plot mechanics at one level but it gives us Amy/Warren as the latest in the series of villanous dysfunctional twosomes that began with Spike'n'Dru and ended with First!Buffy/Caleb. There should be fluffy (for certain values of fluffy) "how they met fic" and really disturbing porn. The possibilities are endless.
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Well there's the fact that the shooting was on the news. Every demon in the bar Warren went to knew what had happened. Rack (and Anya) could sense Willow's rage. I doubt there was a single demon in the entire town who didn't know pretty much exactly what happened, including Willow trying to end the world. And also - which is kinda obvious - I always figured that Amy had a little visit from The First, which would not just know Warren's movements, but have inside knowledge of every issue Willow ever had.
There should be fluffy (for certain values of fluffy) "how they met fic" and really disturbing porn. The possibilities are endless.
Now that I'm all for! :)
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Yes but how exactly? Or did Willow kill him after all and Amy revived him? It's infuriatingly vague and (as I said to
if you read the comic instead of just skimming it to find things to be outraged over.
I did read it, and I was mostly just disappointed. This post was my gut-reaction. I'd not read anyone else's posts (if there were any then), I just thought the ret-con is ridiculous. It's convoluted and odd and above everything else I don't want Joss to mess around with established canon. Of course it makes no difference to me, since I don't buy this ret-con as canon, but it saddens me that in three years he's not been able to think of something *new*. What was it Andrew said about moving on? Joss could do with some of that.
Amy sneaking Warren away isn't omnicience it's opportunism taking advantage of Willow's arrogance, a weakness that's been pointed out repeatedly. It's like a theme.
Why wait until the last minute? Sorry, I'll shut up... I'm glad it works for you. I'm glad you find it interesting and satisfying. I just find it rather lame and pointless. I wish I didn't. Yes I like themes, yes I'm willing to forego logic for the sake of emotional payoff. But this time the theme is getting old and I can't see a payoff - unless Willow has to kill Warren. That'd salvage the story, even if it'd be going over old ground.
(I hate being negative. I'm like the Polly Anna of fandom - able to look on the positive side of *everything* - even AYW. I feel all out of sorts criticising the mighty Joss - but I just can't help it.)
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Yes but how exactly? Or did Willow kill him after all and Amy revived him?
Why wait until the last minute? It's infuriatingly vague
OK I inhaled. Up to the top of page 3 anyway. And now I’m completely baffled by everyone (not you personally) commenting to the effect that if Warren didn’t die he couldn’t have appeared as the First.
The first thing he says is that “Bored Now” were the “last two words of his human life.” How could he put it any more clearly? His human life ended there just as William’s did when Dru turned him in that alley. I mean I could understand it better if this had been on TV and people hadn’t caught that particular snippet of dialogue but it’s a comic, it’s sitting there on the page with a label saying “read me.”
“Do you know she had maybe a 4-second window after my skin came off before I died of shock alone?”
So in the context of his human life having ended what does Warren mean by this? Amy’s not that powerful but she is smart and a good improviser. It’s rather touching how impressed Warren is by this. Warren the animated corpse has more genuine affection for another person than human Warren ever managed, which makes his relationship with Amy a potential Jossverse classic in the vein of Spike’n’Dru, Faith and the mayor or Caleb/First!Buffy.
Uh topic. Amy wasn’t up to directly confronting Willow, she had to wait until Willow turned away but in the four seconds before shock shut down all its essential functions she managed to snatch Warren’s body away, magically preserve it and eventually (since he was barely walking by KiM) nurse it back to the level of zombie function it currently has.
It’s all there in the text but, as I think TDH said once and I’m slowly learning, comics use an extremely concentrated form of storytelling and every line counts. There’s a James Marsters quote to the effect that with Buffy you need to sit forward on the couch to follow it. That’s something I loved about the show and am loving about the comics too. Sure so far it’s frequently taken the form of an audience wrong-footing exuberance but I think Joss has earned the right to take back his story and I can sense the depths lurking beneath those pyrotechnics. Delusional maybe but happy about it.
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Sorry, I couldn't help myself here. Willow being sloppy because she's so enraged and narrow-focused that she's onto the next thing (heck, I have that problem sometimes where my brain is thinking ahead to the next activity and so I mess up what I'm doing. Which doesn't include murder, of course), but that's a different thing entirely from sloppy writing/plotting.
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*stabs s8 a few more times*
(Your argument is with
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*crawls back under the rock whence she came*
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(And I am thrilled that you're reading old posts, btw. <3)
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♥
And since I'm new to fandom I'm sort of playing catch up and nearly all the most interesting meta still online was written 2002-2010.
Well, some is still being written, but yes - it's a lot quieter.
Sometimes I jump into old threads anyway, if I see that the person (like yourself) is still somehow active in fandom.
I'm always happy to chat, so by all means comment! Buffy was the fandom that taught me everything, so it's always a pleasure to go back!
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I think fans like you, angearia, and gabrielleabelle provided places where fans could really hang out and a nucleus of interaction (and Buffy-love, 'cause Buffy's my BDH, haters step to the side.) So if there's a perception that there's not as much activity I think it's more to do with that. People underestimate how important meta conversations have been, I think, as opposed to reading fic and saying "that's nice, love this!" Just a theory at any rate.
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Congratulations! :D
I think fans like you, angearia, and gabrielleabelle provided places where fans could really hang out and a nucleus of interaction (and Buffy-love, 'cause Buffy's my BDH, haters step to the side.)
... Yes and no. That is - both angaria and gabrielleabelle were latecomers (even later than I, I only got my LJ in 2004). Back when I first found fandom it was a whole different group that was the centre - although yes, meta had a lot to do with it. The discussions were amazing.
OK, now you've got me wallowing in nostalgia like nobody's business. And this is just a little snapshot.
Those were the days. *deeeeeeeeep sigh* I feel hugely privileged to have been there.
ETA: As for the Spike-centric part of fandom, then check out the members list of