::eyeroll::

[elisi]

Spoilery preview of S8 issue 4.

Dude! Amy *saved* Warren before Willow killed him? WTF? Apart from all the enormous issues it raises (what about The First? How did Willow not *notice* that she wasn't the one killing him (/making him disappear)? What about Willow's whole S7 arc? What does Amy see in a misogynist pig who kills girls for fun? Etc. etc.), then there is this (which has been bothering me since Amy was first revealed): How come they didn't get out of Sunnydale before the apocalypse? Even ordinary people could feel that something bad was coming and left town, so surely a smart girl like Amy would get the hell out before the whole place collapsed?

It doesn't make sense!!!! Did working on Wonder Woman break something vital in Joss' brain? I know he never cared all that much about 'how things worked', bending the rules so he could get to the emotional part, but this is... *throws hands up*

Thank the powers above that this never made it to the screen!

Comments

[elisi]

*sigh*
Heh. Lots of good points - most of which I knew you'd bring! I'm not really disputing any of them, so will just pick out a few:

Notice how Warren says that "bored now" were the last words he heard in his human existence? Whatever he is now, he isn't human... the human called Warren Mears is dead.
Yes, I did notice that. So who killed him? How did he die? How was he 'brought back to life'? I'll bet an AU High School Mpreg fic that we'll never find out! thedeadlyhook and owenthurman have some very sound points here about how the thing could have been handled far better and without ruining the continuity.

But she didn't actually murder Warren, so she's got nothing to feel guilty about now, has she?
Main problem - and a lot of people have mentioned this already - is that we all know that Willow is Joss' favourite, and it seems as though he's trying to whitewash her. Personally I'm praying very hard that she'll have to kill Warren (again).

But honestly, it's not such a leap.
Yes it is. Willow and Dawn were never on the best of terms, and no one has seen Willow for what - a year? How exactly is Willow a caregiver? Also I'm just tired of Buffy and Dawn not getting on. It's old. (Also Dawn is too old to be so... childish.)

That's the benefit of it being canon, rather than a derivative work. ;)
No - Joss is now throwing the blue sand all over the sadnbox, mixing it up with the golden sand and turning a lot of it grey. I was never thrilled about wanting to set Buffy's future in stone (to quote yourself: Which is, of course, why she smiles at the end of the series... because she's not alone, and for the first time since she was 15 she genuinely feels that she's got her whole life ahead of her, and she's free to do what she wants to do, and not what her Sacred Destiny compels her to do...), but ret-conning perfectly good canon for the sake of a not terribly enticing story is... disappointing. I didn't expect the comics to be *great*, but I expected more than we're getting.

mostly because he dares to do things fanfic writers wouldn't
On no. Fanfic writers are doing this stuff all the time! That's the *point* of fanfic after all - exploring all the infinite 'what ifs'. OK, no one has done this *particular* story, but that hardly makes it 'OMG fantastic!' I wanted something new - and all we're getting so far is a rehash of old issues. And The Cult of the Beautiful Sunset which has been rather MIA recently (yes I know they're funding Amy and Warren, but-). Now take Three Deep: A virtual season being written by a whole bunch of the most talented writers in fandom. It's not perfect (I have issues with Buffy's characteriation in particular), but for sheer scope, depth, world building, plot and ambition there's pretty much nothing like it.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Just to make it clear, the *sigh* wasn't specifically directed at you, but the entire discussion. I've got no problem with people who dislike the comic format or the particular story we're being given, but I'm sensing a lot of people now are just looking to be offended. Some of them aren't even reading the comics, they're just reading posts that criticise them and getting all outraged by proxy.

It's reminding me more and more of the way seasons 6 and 7 were received among people who thought Buffy should have never left high school, and Marti Noxon should have stayed a staff writer, and Spike should have remained a villain... Season 8 is getting the same amount of vilification, with about the same level of justification IMO.

What I will say, is that once issue 4 is out, I'm going to sit down and read all four episodes of 'The Long Way Home' through back-to-back. I suspect a lot of the problem is that the story is coming out at such long intervals, people are treating each comic as stand-alone instead of the next act in a continuous story. Your comment about the Twilight cult (to use Ethan's name for them) is a case in point - they have a strong presence in the story; the room Amy brought Willow to is surely provided by them, after all. Just because they don't appear in Act 3 of a 4-part story doesn't mean they're being ignored... Same with the complaints about Buffy being "passive". Part 1 showed her kicking donkeyass and taking names, a successful and competent leader. Parts 2 and 3 put her in peril. We don't know what she's going to do in part 4, although her last comment in 8.03 - "We're being played, Xander. I'm not liking it" - and the way she's standing, impatiently and with arms folded, for the portal to open at the end of the 8.04 teaser, both suggest that she's really not going to, as someone put it, lie around in her nightie fantasising about sex while Xander and Dawn rescue Willow. In fact, if she does I'll take up that MPreg challenge - or anything else you care to set me - myself!

In short; I think a lot of people might benefit from reading the trade paperback when it comes out, instead of the comics. :)

Specific points in comment following.

[elisi]

I'm sensing a lot of people now are just looking to be offended. Some of them aren't even reading the comics, they're just reading posts that criticise them and getting all outraged by proxy.
That's very true. Personally I *want* to like the comics - it's like a favourite author starting a new WIP. Only so far he's failed to thrill me. Maybe my expectations were too high?

Season 8 is getting the same amount of vilification, with about the same level of justification IMO.
I think it's the opposite - people want to see something new and different. And well...

I suspect a lot of the problem is that the story is coming out at such long intervals, people are treating each comic as stand-alone instead of the next act in a continuous story.
Oh yes. There's so much time to guess and speculate that most of the 'surprises' have been worked out and that is a major weakness. I'm sure the story will hold together a lot better when read all together.

In fact, if she does I'll take up that MPreg challenge - or anything else you care to set me - myself!
Hee! That does sound good! :)

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Specifics:

So who killed him? How did he die? How was he 'brought back to life'?
Hmm. Not really a big mystery to me. Willow killed him by ripping off his skin. Amy teleported him away, and instead of restoring him to life she used her magic to preserve him as a walking, talking skinless monster. I mean look at him - no way his continued existence can be anything other than sustained by magic. And then he and Amy spent S7 plotting together, and the spell in 'tKiM' was thought up by the two of them together.

Main problem - and a lot of people have mentioned this already - is that we all know that Willow is Joss' favourite, and it seems as though he's trying to whitewash her. Personally I'm praying very hard that she'll have to kill Warren (again).
Sorry, but saying "we all know Willow is Joss's favourite" sounds exactly like all those people complaining about Spike's role in S5-7, using almost exactly the same words. She's one of the main characters on the show, true, but that means it's unlikely that he'll kill her off or make her completely unsympathetic - not that he won't put her through all kinds of mental and physical torments. And like I said before, I'm really not seeing this 'whitewash' thing. My Willow tortured people, was completely numb, cold and uncaring about the deaths of those around her, and attempted genocide. The fact that she's now presented with the skinless, undead but walking and talking effigy of one of her victims hardly exonerates her of all that.

She might have to kill him again. It would be even more interesting if she had to forgive him...

Willow and Dawn were never on the best of termsYes they were. "Willow's the awesomest person. She's the only one I know who likes school as much as me. Even her friends are cool. Like Tara." Willow's betrayal of Dawn in 'Wrecked' and again in 'Two To Go' wouldn't have been half so devastating if Dawn hadn't loved and trusted Willow so much. Like I said before, Tara was naturally more maternal, but Dawn regarded both Tara and Willow as her parents.


I was never thrilled about wanting to set Buffy's future in stone

Yeah, but... 'Chosen' makes a perfect ending to one particular story, I'll grant that. But real life doesn't have happily ever afters - life goes on, and there are always consequences. And isn't that, there, the very essence of what Joss Whedon's story-telling is all about? Consequences. Showing what would really happen, instead of what narrative convention leads us to expect would happen. So of course he has to subvert the happy ending of 'Chosen' by showing what would really happen next. He wouldn't be Joss otherwise.

(As a comparison, take Lord of the Rings - it ends with the destruction of the Ring, the downfall of Sauron, the reuniting of the Fellowship, a coronation and a wedding. The curtain closes on a kiss... except it doesn't. The hobbits return home, and have to plunge straight into yet another battle with a new enemy, new problems - and old problems like Frodo's wounds turn out to not be solved after all. Life goes on.)

[elisi]

Willow killed him by ripping off his skin.
Did she? "Do you know she had maybe a four-second window after my skin came off before I died of shock alone?"

Amy teleported him away, and instead of restoring him to life she used her magic to preserve him as a walking, talking skinless monster.
Yeah, something like. V. gross.

Sorry, but saying "we all know Willow is Joss's favourite" sounds exactly like all those people complaining about Spike's role in S5-7, using almost exactly the same words.
Oh I know. It's awful, and I don't want to think that way. I'm still holding out hope for something interesting to come out of this. A twist.

Like I said before, Tara was naturally more maternal, but Dawn regarded both Tara and Willow as her parents.
But then shouldn't she be pissed off that Willow has been *missing* for like a year? That counts as pretty big negligence from my POV. Buffy might not be good at connecting, but at least she's there. Also I'm just fed up with Buffy/Dawn problems - at least this particular one. Dawn is too old to behave like that. I don't object to problems, I just wish they were new. (Like say the start of this fic, which is *brilliant* btw.)

Showing what would really happen, instead of what narrative convention leads us to expect would happen.
I'm sorry, but I don't buy that this is what *really* happens to Buffy post-Chosen, any more than any other post-Chosen fic. Sure it's Joss's version, but it took him 3 years to come up with it - this was never 'the one and only thing that could happen'. He said himself that he was out of ideas!

The curtain closes on a kiss... except it doesn't
Yes, but the book doesn't end there. If it had, and we had now got the Scourging of the Shire as an appendix to Children of Hurin... that would have been something else.

Actually, you know what? This is beginning to turn into Start Wars. Not only is Joss re-visiting a 'verse we thought he'd left behind, he's also trying to meddle with the original. And in my world, Han shot first. And Willow killed Warren. No matter what ret-cons crop up! :)

Most of all - I'm just getting tired of this. Honestly I just want this arc to be over (which I'm sure is not how I'm supposed to respond) so I can get to Faith, who'll probably be more fun.