Because this is what I do, every time, every day, every second. This.

[elisi]

DoWntime has come through again, and how:

BIT OF ADRENALINE, DASH OF OUTRAGE: Our Thoughts on “The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos” and Series 11 Wrap-Up — Part 1/2

BIT OF ADRENALINE, DASH OF OUTRAGE: Our Thoughts on “The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos” and Series 11 Wrap-Up — Part 2/2

(They go through EVERYTHING: the characters, the villain, Themes and Motifs, Diversity and Representation, Marketing, Politics, Ethics and Aesthetics and The Discourse Problem. If you want to know what I think, just read those posts.)

Alternatively, here is the shorter version, as propergoffick put it here (spoilers in post!):

'And you get this Doctor who you know in your soul votes Lib Dem, recycles, and gets properly annoyed about what Nigel Farage said in the paper the other day, but doesn't do anything about huge systemic problems. She fixes the very specific problem in front of her and leaves well alone. J. K. Rowling in space and time.'

ETA: I *want* Thirteen to be wonderful and amazing and her companions to have fabulous depth and for there to be story-arcs and something to sink my teeth into. But there isn't.


In other news, I have almost finished S22 and may write up some thoughts on that! Six is my darling and I luff him to pieces. ♥

Comments

[lyricwritesprose]

Strictly speaking, S5 had River Song, who is pan. But that wasn't very firmly established at the time; it was mostly hints in the library episodes and creator's opinion. It took until "The Husbands of River Song" before we had explicit onscreen confirmation of the fact.

And you could take that as a sign of creator growth, too, I guess; Moffat learned that you can't just headcanon a character to be bi or pan or whatever, you have to make sure that someone else knows.

I do wonder if Chibnall intended Yaz to be bi, but we know so little about her that it's impossible to tell.

[elisi]

And you could take that as a sign of creator growth, too, I guess; Moffat learned that you can't just headcanon a character to be bi or pan or whatever, you have to make sure that someone else knows.
This, but also the fact that he hadn't noticed - it wasn't an active thing, we are just not able to see our own blind spots. He quite simply wasn't thinking of whether he had gay characters or not. The important part of course being that he then self-corrected. Ditto with Bill - I recall him talking about deliberately wanting to cast a black companion, because he had previously presumed that if you just had normal auditions, you would automatically get an 'average' range of ppl, reflecting the population, and realised that that isn't the case, so became pro-active in casting someone not-white.

The moral of the story of course being: Put more minorities in positions of power, cause they don't need to learn these things.

I do wonder if Chibnall intended Yaz to be bi, but we know so little about her that it's impossible to tell.
There is a single line from her mother and... nothing else. :(

What I hope will happen is that Graham & Ryan leave and we get a season of Thirteen & Yaz, and then HOPEFULLY we will get something deeper. And not just because Yaz is obviously the Doctor's 'favourite' - I am thinking specifically of the scene in It Takes You Away where she is talking to Yaz and trying to work out what's going on, and it fits the Doctor's general pattern: The Doctor prefers companions who are young women. That's her type, and always has been. Which is fine, but we need a spot-light on that, and something more interesting. (Three companions is too many.)

[elisi]

This has been the first time (since I became a fan back in 2010) that I've still not gotten around to watching the finale yet, and that it's not driving me up and over the mental wall. which... definitely shows how disappointed I've been. Even if I still love the Doctor.
I didn't watch it until... Tuesday? It's a perfectly fine episode, I quite enjoyed watching it, but I just... have nothing mire to say. Which is sad.

I think I'm mainly just sticking around 'cuz of how gay I am for Thirteen. x]
That is a perfectly valid reason.

[shadowkat]

I *want* Thirteen to be wonderful and amazing and her companions to have fabulous depth and for there to be story-arcs and something to sink my teeth into. But there isn't.

No, there really isn't. The only compelling episodes were the Rosa one and the Demons of Punjab, and neither gave us much on the Doctor or other characters, really.

I think there's a problem with the writers -- the overall tone reminds me of the problems I had with Broadchurch -- I liked the first season of Broadchurch, but rapidly lost interest. It just wasn't all that compelling.

Also, there's a lack of humor and fun here. It feels rather forced.

[elisi]

I think there's a problem with the writers -- the overall tone reminds me of the problems I had with Broadchurch -- I liked the first season of Broadchurch, but rapidly lost interest. It just wasn't all that compelling.
Interesting. People have only ever said nice thing about Broadchurch, but I never watched it... If this is a Chibnall-running-his-own-show issue, I guess we'll just have to wait out.

Also, there's a lack of humor and fun here. It feels rather forced.
Ooooh yes. The lack of humour is almost fatal. :(

[thisbluespirit]

Thanks! They're wonderful pics! I still couldn't see them, but then I wondered if they were hosted on LJ and it was because I'd got logged out, and logged back in and there they were. (But anyone without an LJ account won't, not this side, presumably.)

[elisi]

Hmmm. I just made them available to all. *pokes the internet* That's just weird.

Anyway, glad you could see them, and it was a good, good day. :)

ETA: I went looking for Peri (or rather Peri/Six) icons because... I unaccountably found myself, well, shipping them. This is very strange. Not in a romantic sense (because, um, Six!) but give me two characters who argue all the time and... well. That's my kryptonite.

Anyway, then found this icon, so wanted to say thank you. Fandom provides for everything. :)

[ever_neutral]

Yup.

I'm above all baffled that we just had an entire season of Doctor Who where the Doctor had zero character arc. The Doctor. How do you even write an entire DW season where the Doctor has no arc. ABSOLUTELY MYSTIFYING.

And of course the woman of colour is the companion the writers care least about.

Anyway, I did enjoy several episodes as self-contained specimens, but the season as a whole wasn't even half-baked as a narrative.

[shadowkat]

Broadchurch was humorless, cop/small town procedural, delving into the lives of the town-people while investigating a horrible crime. S1 -- a child is murdered -- turns out by his molester. Olivia Coleman is amazing in it by the way, so is Jodi Whittacker as the mother of the murdered boy, Coleman plays a detective -- it's a small-town secrets tale. S2 - They investigate all these missing kids, who got killed. S3 - they investigate a rape. (See - dark stuff. And very angsty. Although it never dives into melodrama.)

Season 1 was really good. S2 was boring -- and drug. Season 3...sigh, only slightly better. He gets VERY issue oriented, and preachy in his writing, and isn't a comedy writer. Also lots of plot holes...not the tightest writer on the planet.

I honestly think he was a bad fit for Doctor Who. Doctor Who requires a writer who can do dramedy, which isn't easy to do, and handle sci-fantasy. Chinbal just feels off to me. Granted, I swung more towards Moffat than Davies -- mainly because I thought Moffat was better at comedy and plotting.

Doctor Who isn't really a hugely character driven series -- you don't have an ensemble cast like Broadchurch. It's more plot driven, with an episodic style. Also the main focus is usually on the Doctor -- companions come and go, so the companions add to his arc, not the other way around.

Chinball is more of a ensemble character driven writer than plot driven writer. He works better with large ensembles, and doesn't like to give much character arc to the leads -- he's not used to a central lead style episodic series. He's used to an ensemble style serial. In Broadchurch -- we got very little on David Tennant's world-weary detective -- at least not until S2, the focus was mainly on the supporting or subsidiary characters. And I'm seeing that happening here as well -- the focus is less on the Doctor, and more on the companions, specifically the character of Graham, which is okay, I guess. But why should I care about Graham?

I have a feeling after about a season or two, we'll get a new Doctor and a new show-runner. Which you can do with Doctor Who rather easily if it doesn't work. I do hope they stay with a female Who for a bit, or if not, an POC Who. I'm sort of tired of the White Guys.

[thisbluespirit]

Heh, well, I'm logged in again now, so it's hard to say. But, yeah, it looked like an excellent day. And once the pics were there I could see whether or not you meant Hattie Holly or the original Holly (and was glad to see it was Hattie).

but give me two characters who argue all the time and... well.

I sympathise. I don't ship Doctor/Companion very much (and am unsure where I want it to go when I do), but if I do it's either something mixed up and intense but fun like Twelve/Clara and Eight/Charley, but my main one is Five/Tegan... because everybody knows what it means when you argue like that in the 1980s! I sort of ship Peri/Six on the same basis sometimes, but not as much. Because, as you say, Six.

[unfeathered]

Wow, there's a lot there! Very comprehensive. And it's really nice to know I'm not the only one feeling so underwhelmed by the season, even if it's still frustrating to be feeling it. The point these discussions really brought out for me is what I'd been edging towards but hadn't quite reached yet: this season was too safe. Too middle of the road, too passive, never challenging anything or taking any risks. No excitement.

And that's just weird, because if there's one thing I feel DW has never been before, it's safe!

[unfeathered]

But literally minutes after I'd watched it, I was buying Classic Who DVDs online, and not thinking about the episode anymore.

Yeah, I have to admit, after that my son and I realised we really wanted to watch some *real* DW so we continued with our S4 rewatch and hell, even the Sontaran two-parter, which I've never rated particularly highly, felt amazing after this, and the Library two-parter felt incredible! I know I've criticised both RTD and Moffatt for plot holes and over-dramatising things, but hell, at least they gave me something to get excited about!

[elisi]

But, yeah, it looked like an excellent day.
It really was! :)

And once the pics were there I could see whether or not you meant Hattie Holly or the original Holly (and was glad to see it was Hattie).
We have sort-of been re-watching Red Dwarf and I love the fact that Holly just changes, but the character stays the same. :)

I sympathise. I don't ship Doctor/Companion very much (and am unsure where I want it to go when I do)
I really don't ship Doctor/companion (partly out of principle, partly out of inclination), although I often love the friendship (like say, Eleven & Amy, or Seven & Ace), and then out of the blue, it happens. OBVIOUSLY it can never go anywhere, but once I have finished Six's run I may commit fic. This whole Classic show watching is... discombobulating.

[elisi]

I'm above all baffled that we just had an entire season of Doctor Who where the Doctor had zero character arc. The Doctor. How do you even write an entire DW season where the Doctor has no arc. ABSOLUTELY MYSTIFYING.
It's almost impressive...

And of course the woman of colour is the companion the writers care least about.
I don't know about that, but she was the sacrificial lamb. And possibly too Doctor-like to work as a companion. (Graham's grief was the only actual character-arc, so I'm loath to complain too much... Which is a sad state of affairs.)

Anyway, I did enjoy several episodes as self-contained specimens, but the season as a whole wasn't even half-baked as a narrative.
Frog on a chair - brilliant. Historicals - good. The rest? From boring through to offensive. :(

[elisi]

Wow, there's a lot there! Very comprehensive.
Promethia discovered it, back after ep 1 aired, and it's been a lifeline!

And it's really nice to know I'm not the only one feeling so underwhelmed by the season, even if it's still frustrating to be feeling it.
Well it WAS underwhelming. So yeah.

The point these discussions really brought out for me is what I'd been edging towards but hadn't quite reached yet: this season was too safe. Too middle of the road, too passive, never challenging anything or taking any risks. No excitement.
Apparently that's what the Verity podcast ppl have said too.

And that's just weird, because if there's one thing I feel DW has never been before, it's safe!
*points to icon* Hear hear!

[elisi]

Broadchurch was humorless, cop/small town procedural, delving into the lives of the town-people while investigating a horrible crime.
Yes, it was massively popular over here, although no one ever mentioned the 'humourless' aspect. :)

Doctor Who isn't really a hugely character driven series -- you don't have an ensemble cast like Broadchurch. It's more plot driven, with an episodic style. Also the main focus is usually on the Doctor -- companions come and go, so the companions add to his arc, not the other way around.
Hmm. I'd say this was more true of the Classic show - New Who has always been big on characters and arcs, which is why this one feels so empty. And generally the Companions' arcs are what drives the overall story, as Moffat once said, the story happens to the Companion. From that first step inside the TARDIS and then until they leave; there is usually some sort of hero's journey. Of course RTD & Moffat also delved into the Doctor and his issues, so we are used to the show being FULL of character. Hence this season feeling very flat.

Chinball is more of a ensemble character driven writer than plot driven writer. He works better with large ensembles, and doesn't like to give much character arc to the leads -- he's not used to a central lead style episodic series. He's used to an ensemble style serial
Well he was the guy who oversaw Torchwood (because RTD had way too much on his plate) and although S1 is horribly bleak, there was plenty of characters stuff & arcs and all the rest. And Jack's opaque character was explained eventually, and was a deliberate choice. So it just baffles me how a man known for character work can write something so bland as S11.

specifically the character of Graham, which is okay, I guess. But why should I care about Graham?
He's a middle-aged white guy? IDK.

I have a feeling after about a season or two, we'll get a new Doctor and a new show-runner. Which you can do with Doctor Who rather easily if it doesn't work
You say 'easily', but sadly that is not the case. You need someone both deeply 'versed in the show AND who has experience with being a showrunner. Hence RTD & Moffat tapping Chibnall. I literally have no idea who could take over...

[thisbluespirit]

This whole Classic show watching is... discombobulating.

Well, it wouldn't be Doctor Who otherwise, would it? ;-)

(Discombobulate, btw, is, or was, apparently Sylvester's favourite word, so very appropriate!)

and I love the fact that Holly just changes, but the character stays the same.

I love Holly. And that, yes.

[elisi]

Well, it wouldn't be Doctor Who otherwise, would it? ;-)
Good point. Also a point AGAINST S11 which was just sort of there...

Discombobulate, btw, is, or was, apparently Sylvester's favourite word, so very appropriate!
I love that.

[shadowkat]

I don't know, Doctor Who always felt very episodic to me, with some general arcs..sort of like a Monster of the Week, with a over-arching arc in the background.

Keep in mind I watch a lot of pure serials - such as Riverdale, Daredevil, Game of Thrones, Killing Eve, The Good Place,
BSG...huge serial fan. Not really a fan of the old monster of the week episodic series, with a running back story - such as Star Trek, Doctor Who, Buffy (up until approx S5, when the writers decided the heck with this, we suck at stand-a-lone's we're going full serial), Angel (up until S4), NCIS, Bones, etc.

Broadchurch was pure serial. You can't just jump in at any time in a pure serial series. I could jump in at any time for Who.

And while he did do Torchwood -- Torchwood had issues. Children of the Earth -- which I think was done by RT Davies (?) was better plot-wise in my opinion. Torchwood had plot-holes a plenty.

[unfeathered]

The thing about Broadchurch being humourless but this not being mentioned... I haven't seen it either so I'm only working on supposition here, but in my experience most British dramas are unrelentingly grim and humourless, to the extent where I mostly avoid them because I *like* some lighthearted relief to bring light and shade to my drama. This may be why no-one mentioned it about Broadchurch, because it's what they expected?

[elisi]

Sorry about the late response, Christmas happened...

I don't know, Doctor Who always felt very episodic to me, with some general arcs..sort of like a Monster of the Week, with a over-arching arc in the background.
Yes, you are absolutely right.

And while he did do Torchwood -- Torchwood had issues. Children of the Earth -- which I think was done by RT Davies (?) was better plot-wise in my opinion. Torchwood had plot-holes a plenty.
Torchwood had a million issues. ♥ ♥ ♥ Like, I couldn't even begin to list them all. However, it was ALSO pure crack and (as someone put it way back when S1 first aired:

"It involves alien-hunting and a cyborg fighting a pterodactyl, and I am quite, quite certain that every single pairing is canon. Just watch an episode, pick any two of the main characters, and I can pretty much assure you that it's either canon or will be canon in the near future. It's just a fanfic-writer's dream."

And it was. A fanfic writer's dream. The fic was AMAZING and the show was insane, and god I loved it so much it HURT. *sigh*

Children of Earth was amazing, but it also broke the show for good. (Yes CoE was written by RTD and one of the best things he has ever done.)

[elisi]

but in my experience most British dramas are unrelentingly grim and humourless, to the extent where I mostly avoid them because I *like* some lighthearted relief to bring light and shade to my drama.
*tilts head* Well, if you watch grim murder mysteries, then I guess they will be humourless? I wouldn't say British drama as a rule is dark, and am unsure what you've been watching...

[elisi]

I know I've criticised both RTD and Moffatt for plot holes and over-dramatising things, but hell, at least they gave me something to get excited about!
This. Emotions are good! :D Even if they're anger.

[sea_thoughts]

It's a shame the finale was so anticlimactic given that this the first episode where we saw some brief conflict within the team between Ryan and Graham about what to do with Tim Shaw.

I wouldn't say JK Rowling does 'nothing' about huge systemic problems, she founded an NGO that works to help institutionalised children and to end institutionalisation for children by 2050.

[elisi]

The thing is, I didn't hate the finale, I just... didn't really care.

And that makes me sad.

Re. JK, then it's not so much her personal actions, as her work. See this post for a (very extremely long) take:

Fascistic Beasts and Why You Shouldn't Fight Them

(Spoilers obviously, and if you loved the film... probably don't read it.)