(no subject)

[elisi]

So, the day before yesterday Darcy & decided to watch The Winter Soldier (it was on Netflix, we hadn't seen it).

I'd taken a good deal in by fannish osmosis, so was expecting a bromance (well star-crossed in that Bucky was 'evil').

This proved incorrect.

The main friendship was Cap/Natasha (I love Natasha, so this was A-OK with me). But I had no idea that she was even in the film.

The secondary friendship was Cap/Falcon (Sam?). I sort of wish they'd done more with it, rather than The Falcon deciding to help out because... he could. He looked vaguely familiar, but didn't realise who he was until he put the wings on and I waved my hands around 'cause he had like a 3 second cameo in Antman.

As for Bucky, then... Well Darcy thought him way cooler than the Cap (all emo with his dark hair, and he had a cool arm too!) and I wish we'd gotten more of him? Like, it's his name on the film, but he's barely onscreen. And the Steve/Bucky friendship is covered in two blink-and-you'll-miss-it flashbacks. (This is of course where tropes are very handy, cause goodness knows male friendship is something so fundamental to stories generally that we can fill in the whole thing without knowing anything beyond the fact that they'd always be there for each other.) (I am sure the whole thing is beautifully fleshed out in the comics. But as a viewer, it felt a little... basic.)

Their actual interactions don't take much more than 5 minutes (maybe 10?) and most of those they spend fighting.

Sidebar: Who was the massively cool lady with the dark hair? Fury's right hand woman? Don't even know her name, she seemed more together & smarter than all the rest put together. Give her a film!

Plot... um. IDK. A thing. Stupidly ridiculous as these things always are, and I think I got the main gist, but mostly through knowing how these things work.

So is there more Bucky somewhere? Does Mr tortured & memory wiped & turned into a weapon get an actual story at some point?

Oh and it was fun to see how it built to Age of Ultron (which I have seen), with the twins at the end.

Mostly though, then this fantastically well-organised group of Nazis is just... too unreal? In the actual world, they're 'alt-right' keyboard 'warriors', not hyper-fit soldiers or massively scheming uber Bad Guys. (I mean, they do scheme, and cause a lot of damage, but it's just ugly and horrible and every day.) Give me Kylo Ren any day, he's more plausible than Hydra. The angry young radicalised white guy hung up on the past, who in another world would wear a MAGA hat and yell about the 2nd Amendment online.






Plus (BLACK PANTHER SPOILERS below)




Am I right in thinking that Shuri fixed Bucky?

Comments

[greensword]

The massively cool lady is Maria Hill. She does not have a movie, and AFAIK Winter Soldier is one of her more prominent appearances. Because why devote screentime to women when you can devote it to men?

I feel a bit like I have failed you because Winter Soldier is my favorite MCU film other than Black Panther and part of that is because I feel like it has strong arcs not just for Steve but for Natasha and Fury, but I guess I don't really post about fandom here too much.

I love the plot of Winter Soldier. Yes, HYDRA is cartoonishly evil, but for me the real villain of CA:WS is Nick Fury. He and Pierce are mirrors just like Steve and Bucky are mirrors. Steve is depressed and falls back on just following orders, going wherever Fury points because being Captain America is the only thing that has any meaning anymore. Bucky is brainwashed but Pierce is still telling him that he's saving the world, when he gives him his orders. So yeah, both Bucky and Pierce's characters are unbelievable, but I interpret them metaphorically - Pierce is who Fury is in danger of becoming, and the Winter Soldier is who Captain America might be if he just followed orders.

(Also, Bucky gets quite a bit more screen-time in the first Captain America movie. I can see why Steve and Bucky's friendship would feel paper thin if you haven't seen that one, though.)

I forget that Sam has such a relatively small role in this film because I adore him so much. I think it's great that they have this action superhero that's also a mental health counselor, although subsequent movies seem to have disappeared that part of his character entirely. Emotional maturity and emotional vulnerability and empathy are superpowers too!

And yes, Shuri fixed Bucky.

[elisi]

The massively cool lady is Maria Hill. She does not have a movie, and AFAIK Winter Soldier is one of her more prominent appearances. Because why devote screentime to women when you can devote it to men?
This. >:(

I feel a bit like I have failed you because Winter Soldier is my favorite MCU film other than Black Panther and part of that is because I feel like it has strong arcs not just for Steve but for Natasha and Fury, but I guess I don't really post about fandom here too much.
To be fair, I watched it out of sequence and only have a very cursory interest in the MCU. Like, I adore Tony Stark, and I appreciate Loki & Thor (when I can suppress everything I know about Norse mythology, generally anything set in 'Asgard' makes me want to throw stuff at the screen), and I really liked Black panther and Antman is adorbz! But overall it just doesn't really hit those buttons for me. However I can see why you'd like this one - I guess I went into it with the wrong expectations.

So yeah, both Bucky and Pierce's characters are unbelievable, but I interpret them metaphorically - Pierce is who Fury is in danger of becoming, and the Winter Soldier is who Captain America might be if he just followed orders.
Nice! That works well. I am guessing it's that kinda thing Civil War explores?

(Also, Bucky gets quite a bit more screen-time in the first Captain America movie. I can see why Steve and Bucky's friendship would feel paper thin if you haven't seen that one, though.)
I have seen about 20 minutes of it. All I can really remember is recognising Jenna Coleman. ;)

I forget that Sam has such a relatively small role in this film because I adore him so much. I think it's great that they have this action superhero that's also a mental health counselor, although subsequent movies seem to have disappeared that part of his character entirely. Emotional maturity and emotional vulnerability and empathy are superpowers too!
Hear hear!

[greensword]

So yeah, both Bucky and Pierce's characters are unbelievable, but I interpret them metaphorically - Pierce is who Fury is in danger of becoming, and the Winter Soldier is who Captain America might be if he just followed orders.

Nice! That works well. I am guessing it's that kinda thing Civil War explores?

Sadly, no. Civil War is kind of terrible. I'm slowly realizing that I don't actually like the MCU, I like the small handful of movies within the MCU that stand on their own in terms of themes, plot, and characterization. Mostly just Winter Soldier and Black Panther (with First Avenger being acceptable as necessary setup to Winter Soldier). I've actually been invited twice to see Infinity War for free and both times I was like, hard pass.

A lot of what I like about Winter Soldier and the Captain America character more generally I've gotten from fanfic. Fans will explore themes like performative masculinity and PTSD and the transmutation of fear into anger and violence, that Hollywood won't touch with a ten foot pool. If you've any interest, I've been writing drabbles of my own about it here - but if you didn't like Winter Soldier, they may not do anything for you, subversive interpretations or not.

[yourlibrarian]

I get the idea of fannish activity really skewing what's actually happening in a show or film. And yes, for all that's been written about it, one would assume we'd seen way more of Steve and Bucky than we've been given on screen. A lot is really read into it. I think it's even worse for MCU storylines (or any film really) because there's so much less time for anything to get developed than in TV.

That said the MCU is definitely meant to be viewed as a serialized story, so there's more about Bucky in Cap 1 (and Ant Man follows Winter Soldier). I actually thought that the worst deficit in their bonding was in Cap 3 where it's so critical to the central plot yet it's more something we know than we actually get to see.

I think what's also underexplored, although there if one looks, is that Steve may have company but he's also alone and trying to adjust to his new life where everyone he's known and many things he used to know are dead and gone. Hence his first exchange with Sam and his visit to Peggy. So it isn't simply that he and Bucky were like glue growing up, but that Bucky is actually alive and in the same condition that Steve is. Bucky is, for all purposes, an unexpected chance to go home again.

Maria Hill was in Avengers 1,2, and 3 and Nick's trusted second.

Actually Hydra and the Nazis worked together during WWII but they're not the same groups -- though, yes, evil. (Agents of SHIELD spends a lot more time on them).

[elisi]

I get the idea of fannish activity really skewing what's actually happening in a show or film.
I remember my flist being awash in Steve/Bucky shipping/fic for months on end...

I think it's even worse for MCU storylines (or any film really) because there's so much less time for anything to get developed than in TV.
This. It's all very action-y, high stakes stuff, whereas I just want time for the characters to breathe... (Although sometimes it works well - I remember watching Iron Man 3 before The Avengers and being intrigued at Tony's PTSD and how well that was dealt with. And then curious as to what had happened in the previous movie. Guess I was hoping for more of that here.)

I think what's also underexplored, although there if one looks, is that Steve may have company but he's also alone and trying to adjust to his new life where everyone he's known and many things he used to know are dead and gone.
See I thought that was quite obvious? The plot sort of slowed to a crawl as it made time for him to sort of find his feet. (I wish I had liked the visit to Peggy more. It felt a little too generic and Hollywood-ised. Although my main fandom is time travel centric, and ending up in the wrong time/all your friends being dead is a well worn path.)

So it isn't simply that he and Bucky were like glue growing up, but that Bucky is actually alive and in the same condition that Steve is. Bucky is, for all purposes, an unexpected chance to go home again.
Again, we had this in Doctor Who in the S3 finale (and again the 2009 Christmas Specials, and again in S8) and BOY HOWDY did we get 1000% more than Steve/Bucky shippers did. Although of course the Master *IS* evil, not just brainwashed... /this was a sidebar.

Maria Hill was in Avengers 1,2, and 3 and Nick's trusted second.
Yes I recognised her, but in those films she just seemed to sit in front of a screen? This time she was just quietly and competently getting stuff sorted while the Cap was running around.

Actually Hydra and the Nazis worked together during WWII but they're not the same groups -- though, yes, evil. (Agents of SHIELD spends a lot more time on them).
I sort of conflate them, because Hydra is obviously the Avengers' metaphorical Nazis.

[yourlibrarian]

I remember watching Iron Man 3 before The Avengers and being intrigued at Tony's PTSD and how well that was dealt with. And then curious as to what had happened in the previous movie.

Ah, so Tony's PTSD made you wonder what had happened in Avengers 1? I also liked that aspect of it, as well as various other things about the movie which I had felt were lacking from IM1 and 2.

Re: Maria you probably forgot about her opening scene in Avengers 1 when she chases down Loki and Clint in the jeep. She has relatively little to do in Avengers 2 and only a cameo in the latest film.

You're not alone in conflating Hydra and Nazis, and yeah they do function that way in large part. While I liked the whole "enemy within" and "police state" aspect of Winter Soldier the fact that it was Hydra put it on more of a cartoonish level than the typical spy thriller. OTOH, it worked well enough as a metaphor and made Steve's world and outlook a lot more complicated than what he'd faced in Cap 1. I kind of see his attempt to find his way forward in a moral way a kind of version of Tony's PTSD since Tony had been jaded since childhood and the same plotline would never have worked for him.

[shapinglight]

From the sound of it, you've never seen the original Captain America film. I recommend it.

[elisi]

I have seen about 20 minutes. Should probably watch more. ;)

[minim_calibre]

The last paragraph is amusing to me! We have the totally opposite reaction in my house with US politics being what it is. (Also, the last time we watched it, my spouse said to me, "Project Insight is just Facebook with guns." I mean, really, Cambridge Analytica with guns, but that's if I'm being nitpicky.)

Winter Soldier really needs to be seen alongside First Avenger, and not just for the Bucky aspect. Winter Soldier did a good job with the man-out-of-time piece while he's in the Smithsonian, but it's got about ten times the impact if the viewer knows who (and what) he lost when he sacrificed himself. As a bonus, you also see Zola in his human form (you do some in Bucky's flashbacks, but not with the full context), which increases the impact of the scene in Lehigh. (Also, First Avenger is fun in a very WWII-era WWII movie sort of way. There's a musical number!)

[minim_calibre]

OH! And First Avenger has Jenna Coleman in it in a small role. (Also seen: David Bradley, Natalie Dormer, and in a much larger role than either of those, Dominic Cooper as Howard Stark.)

[elisi]

OH! And First Avenger has Jenna Coleman in it in a small role.
That is literally one of the only things I remember of those 20 minutes I saw. I recognised her by how she held her hands. <3

[greensword]

"Project Insight is just Facebook with guns."

Actually it's Google with Guns: A dozen Google employees quit over military drone project.

[minim_calibre]

Well, to be fair, that hadn't happened yet when we last watched it! :D

[elisi]

OH JOY!

(Although again, it's not hidden, people are protesting, and yet it still seems to be going ahead. Can we switch 3 little Sim cards and stop it all, please?)

[elisi]

The last paragraph is amusing to me! We have the totally opposite reaction in my house with US politics being what it is. (Also, the last time we watched it, my spouse said to me, "Project Insight is just Facebook with guns." I mean, really, Cambridge Analytica with guns, but that's if I'm being nitpicky.)
Yeah, but - they can stop it all with three small McGuffins. In the blink of an eye, it's been stopped and the Bad Guys have to reorganise themselves and think of a new Evil Plan. In reality the Bad Guys won. And are still in charge. And people are cheering them on. Like, I can absolutely see what they were going for, but the metaphor was too simplistic? (This is why I brought up Kylo Ren. All these Bad Guys are so self-assured. Kylo is a walking mess, but all the more dangerous for it. Bucky might switch sides if he can remember who he is, but Ben Solo CHOSE to be Kylo Ren. No torture, no mindwipe.) It may well be that the Avengers verse is more subtle than I give it credit for, after all, I haven't even seen all of it. The plot just gave me Black Panther flashbacks (although I guess it should be the other way around, since this pre-dates it): Big Killing Things to be Unleashed. Stop the Killing Things. World Saved. (Until new dastardly plan.)

Winter Soldier really needs to be seen alongside First Avenger, and not just for the Bucky aspect. Winter Soldier did a good job with the man-out-of-time piece while he's in the Smithsonian, but it's got about ten times the impact if the viewer knows who (and what) he lost when he sacrificed himself.
Yeah, I have only seen about 20 minutes of it...

As a bonus, you also see Zola in his human form
He is Toby Jones, I could probably name you five British dramas I have seen him in, off the top of my head. :)

Also, First Avenger is fun in a very WWII-era WWII movie sort of way. There's a musical number!
Ooooh

[promethia_tenk]

I haven't seen this one because I too assumed it was a tortured bromance between Steve and Bucky and words cannot express how little interest I have in seeing that. I know the very broad jist of what happens in it, though, because it's a lynchpin of Agents of SHIELD, for obvious reasons, and by far the best tie-in to movie continuity they ever did.

Maria Hill is indeed pretty awesome. She makes a few appearances on SHIELD when they want us to feel like the movies matter or something. Or more like they want to make us feel like the show matters because it takes place in the same world as the movies. Despite my massive bitterness about this, I'm always happy to see her 1) because she's awesome and 2) because the HIMYM fan in me can pretend that Robin Scherbatsky was a secret spy all along. Hearing that she has a good part in it (and Natasha) makes me want to watch this one more than anything else I've heard, tbh.

In related news, all of Agent Carter is now on Hulu and I slipped right into rewatching it because it is ridiculously delightful and perfect and the next time you get an impulse to watch a Marvel movie full of broody men you should go watch Peggy Carter kick asses and blow things up instead.

ETA: I'm not totally sure about where I stand on the ridiculousness of Hydra. I don't know exactly how it's portrayed in Winter Soldier, though on the show we do end up seeing a lot of aspects of them. The thing that works best for me is how much they are shown to be an old boys' network and how that works. There are a number of storylines where we see the effects of successive generations guiding the next into place and the psychological impacts that has on the younger generations. The hyper organization and the way they have their fingers in every single pie does stretch incredulity a bit, though that breaks down on the show as well.

[elisi]

I haven't seen this one because I too assumed it was a tortured bromance between Steve and Bucky and words cannot express how little interest I have in seeing that.
See that was a draw, for me. Sit back, wallow in the bromance and the man!pain. Except it was like... hardly there at all.

Despite my massive bitterness about this, I'm always happy to see her 1) because she's awesome and 2) because the HIMYM fan in me can pretend that Robin Scherbatsky was a secret spy all along. Hearing that she has a good part in it (and Natasha) makes me want to watch this one more than anything else I've heard, tbh.
She (Maria) isn't in it MUCH, but functions as the hyper competent person who organises stuff, where the Cap & Natasha just sort of blunder about.

In related news, all of Agent Carter is now on Hulu and I slipped right into rewatching it because it is ridiculously delightful and perfect and the next time you get an impulse to watch a Marvel movie full of broody men you should go watch Peggy Carter kick asses and blow things up instead.
I don't have Hulu. :(

The thing that works best for me is how much they are shown to be an old boys' network and how that works. There are a number of storylines where we see the effects of successive generations guiding the next into place and the psychological impacts that has on the younger generations.
See that sounds quite good. Here it was a little bit Bond villain. Actually the whole thing was very Bond-y to be honest, with Natasha as the kick-ass Bond girl (except without the sexual tension). And with the Cap as Bond. (Doing his best Faith-in-Buffy's-body 'Because it's WRONG' impression.)

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

I prefer the dynamic between Bucky and Steve in the comics, even though it's less realistic. Essentially Bucky was an orphaned kid who became Steve's teenaged sidekick. So Steve has a sense of responsibility for him that isn't there in the movies.

Bucky first debuted in a comic published in March 1941 so yeah, fleshed out. The Winter Soldier plot came about in 2005, after decades of writers teasing the Bucky had come back, and having it turn out to be not really him.

In the movies, I enjoy the Winter Soldier plot, but Bucky himself is dull to me outside of that, and his relationship with Steve is not interesting.

[elisi]

I prefer the dynamic between Bucky and Steve in the comics, even though it's less realistic. Essentially Bucky was an orphaned kid who became Steve's teenaged sidekick. So Steve has a sense of responsibility for him that isn't there in the movies.
Now, that makes a lot of sense!!

Bucky first debuted in a comic published in March 1941 so yeah, fleshed out.
I can definitely understand loving comics - Marvel isn't my thing, but I absolutely get why people love them.

The Winter Soldier plot came about in 2005, after decades of writers teasing the Bucky had come back, and having it turn out to be not really him.
Heh. Of course.

In the movies, I enjoy the Winter Soldier plot, but Bucky himself is dull to me outside of that, and his relationship with Steve is not interesting.
I should probably not watch stuff out of sequence...

[kazzy-cee.livejournal.com]

There's a whole timeline of stuff here (http://collider.com/mcu-timeline-explained/) if you're interested, and yes Bucky does crop up every now and again.

I really like Sebastian Stan and hate that he wasn't picked to play the young Han Solo (look at photos of him against young Harrison Ford and you can see such a strong resemblance).

[elisi]

There's a whole timeline of stuff here
Thank you! If I ever start delving deeper, I'll know where to look. :)

I really like Sebastian Stan and hate that he wasn't picked to play the young Han Solo (look at photos of him against young Harrison Ford and you can see such a strong resemblance).
He did a lot with very little, so yeah, I'd love to see more of him.

[sea_thoughts]

The main friendship was Cap/Natasha (I love Natasha, so this was A-OK with me). But I had no idea that she was even in the film.

Clearly you need to spend more time on my Tumblr. ;) I have them tagged under "good cop bad cop". They're great.

The secondary friendship was Cap/Falcon (Sam?). I sort of wish they'd done more with it, rather than The Falcon deciding to help out because... he could.

That's because Sam occupies the space where a romance relationship would normally be. He and Steve have a connection, Steve opens up to him, Sam can see that Steve is feeling isolated and lonely so he opens up in turn. :)

And the Steve/Bucky friendship is covered in two blink-and-you'll-miss-it flashbacks. (I am sure the whole thing is beautifully fleshed out in the comics. But as a viewer, it felt a little... basic.)

The Steve/Bucky friendship is covered in the first CapAm film ("The First Avenger"), you get much more focus on their relationship there so there isn't much here.

Sidebar: Who was the massively cool lady with the dark hair? Fury's right hand woman? Don't even know her name, she seemed more together & smarter than all the rest put together. Give her a film!

Maria Hill, you see her in the first Avengers film and I agree it would be nice to have a film about her but no such luck. She ends up going to work for Tony Stark at the end of this film after SHIELD is disbanded.

So is there more Bucky somewhere? Does Mr tortured & memory wiped & turned into a weapon get an actual story at some point?

He turns up again in the third CapAm film Civil War although I don't know if you necessarily get 'more' of him but it does go a little into what it was like to be brainwashed and tortured and used as a weapon.

Mostly though, then this fantastically well-organised group of Nazis is just... too unreal? In the actual world, they're 'alt-right' keyboard 'warriors', not hyper-fit soldiers or massively scheming uber Bad Guys.

Right, except this film was made in 2013 and came out in 2014, before the mainstream realised that the alt-right was actually a real threat to democracy. In fact, the film's twist of the nice-seeming older white man being behind it all feels all too prescient now, sadly.

Am I right in thinking that Shuri fixed Bucky?

Yeah, Bucky ends up in Wakanda at the end of "Civil War" because of various stuff that happens in that movie and Shuri has to go in and fix all the things that Hydra messed up.

[elisi]

Clearly you need to spend more time on my Tumblr. ;) I have them tagged under "good cop bad cop". They're great.
I haven't been on Tumblr in months... Might just go have a look!

That's because Sam occupies the space where a romance relationship would normally be. He and Steve have a connection, Steve opens up to him, Sam can see that Steve is feeling isolated and lonely so he opens up in turn. :)
Now that makes sense. Thank you. :) (Sidebar: WHY COULDN'T IT HAVE BEEN A ROMANCE???)

The Steve/Bucky friendship is covered in the first CapAm film ("The First Avenger"), you get much more focus on their relationship there so there isn't much here.
I have watched about 20 minutes of that...

Maria Hill, you see her in the first Avengers film and I agree it would be nice to have a film about her but no such luck. She ends up going to work for Tony Stark at the end of this film after SHIELD is disbanded.
Ta. I knew I'd seen her before, and was sad that I couldn't remember her name.

He turns up again in the third CapAm film Civil War although I don't know if you necessarily get 'more' of him but it does go a little into what it was like to be brainwashed and tortured and used as a weapon.
Cool. One day I'll watch that...

Right, except this film was made in 2013 and came out in 2014, before the mainstream realised that the alt-right was actually a real threat to democracy. In fact, the film's twist of the nice-seeming older white man being behind it all feels all too prescient now, sadly.
To be fair to it, the bad guy was PAINFULLY OBVIOUS - not because of recent events, but because of how these things ALWAYS GO. Sort of plotting-by-numbers. Nothing wrong with it per se (it's that kinda film, no one is shocked at Bond villains either), but it was not a twist.

Yeah, Bucky ends up in Wakanda at the end of "Civil War" because of various stuff that happens in that movie and Shuri has to go in and fix all the things that Hydra messed up.
Super smart teenage girls to the rescue!

[eaweek.livejournal.com]

I love this movie, maybe my favorite in the entire MCU. I saw it three times in theaters and countless times on DVD. I'm amazed you didn't mention the hilarious scene with the ancient computers in the underground bunker. Best LOL moment in the entire film.

[elisi]

I love it when people love stuff! What drew you to it especially (or was it just the whole thing)?

And... which specific bit with the ancient computers? Like, I remember it, but don't remember it being particularly amusing?

/apologies for the lateness of this reply