elisi | Buffy/Riley... why it didn't work.

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Buffy/Riley... why it didn't work.

Watched 'Into The Woods' yesterday and had something of an epiphany...

First of all, I have to say that Riley's feelings of being unneeded are set up very nicely, but - it comes back to the old saying:

You shouldn't be in a realtionship if you want to be made happy, but to make happy.

I'm not saying that Riley should have continued with an unsatisfying relationship, but he left because she didn't make him feel a certain way:

RILEY: You say that, but I don't feel it. I just don't feel it.

Anyway, this brings me to my main point. It was these lines that suddenly stood out:

BUFFY: Oh, I'm sorry. You know, um, I'm sorry that I couldn't take care of you when I thought that my mother was dying.
RILEY: It's about me taking care of you! It's about letting me in. So you don't have to be on top of everything all the time.
BUFFY: But I do. That's part of what being a slayer is. And that's what this is really about, isn't it? You can't handle the fact that I'm stronger than you.
RILEY: It's hard sometimes, yeah. But that's not it.

Riley misunderstands her there. She is NOT talking about physical strength. She is talking about the strength to walk to her own death when 16 years old. The strength to kill the love of her life. The strength to carry to weight of the world on her shoulders and not let up, because no one else can carry her burden:

First!Buffy: Look hard. What do you see?
Caleb: Strength. And the loneliness that comes with real strength.
'Dirty Girls'

A strength (and inherent weakness) that Spike of course understands:

And the thing about the dance is, you never get to stop. Every day you wake up, it's the same bloody question that haunts you: is today the day I die?
'Fool For Love'

Buffy tried to warn Riley, way back in 'Doomed' - and his response was that people could get through these things if they looked after each other. But that's never going to work with Buffy... not really. Because she's a Slayer:

Spike: I know slayers. No matter how many people they've got around them, they fight alone. Life of the chosen one. The rest of us be damned.
LMPTM

This is Riley's tragedy - Buffy would never, ever need him the way he wanted her to.

And we saw that even when unsouled Spike in some ways understood Buffy better than Riley. And when souled could give her what Riley never could - support without asking for anything in return:

Spike: I'm not asking you for anything. When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me.

Mostly, I think the whole thing is summed up best in this icon by

_jems_, which was what spurred on my initial thought:

(ETA: This is the short version. If you want *long* B/R meta, I got that too! *g*)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Here I can't resist the urge to quote Tom McRae's song "Stronger Than Dirt" from Just Like Blood:

Somebody wake me up
The dream is growing coldAnd the
night is all we haveLeft to hold
Somebody sail
this ship
Navigate this crowd
For what I once saw as
landI see as cloud

But I am stronger than
you
And I am braver than you
And I will still be here
When the dust has cleared

Sometimes nothing is
The better hand
And you throw it all for this
I understand

But I am stronger than you
And I am braver than you
And I will still be here
When the dust has cleared
Will you ?
Will you, will you, will you
And I will still be here
When the dust has
cleared
And I will still be here
When the dust has cleared

Will you?

You will never get close to me
You will never get close to me
This is who we are
This is who we are
You will never get close to me
This is who we are...
You will never get close to me
Who we are...

Buffy could have sung that...

Wow. Thank you so much! There should be a vid!

That's actually where I got the lyrics from. =)

I suspected so. :- )

Many lyrics by Tom actually suit Buffy.

People dismiss Riley too easily, I think, and for the wrong reasons
(whitebread, normal, bland). Your explanation, on the other hand, comes centrally from the characters, and is so much better because of it.

People dismiss Riley too easily, I think, and for the wrong reasons
::nods:: Although I hardly find him exhilarating to watch, I think he was a good man.

Your explanation, on the other hand, comes centrally from the characters, and is so much better because of it.
Thank you! :) Oh and RIley letting Sandy bite him is... hot! I was very surprised, but it is!

He wants Buffy to need him the way Sandy does, like blood or sustenance, but it's not going to happen. But, yes -- strangely hot!

I think Joss uses each of Buffy's boyfriends as a cautionary tale to the young females in his audience. Angel -- men can change once you sleep with them, fairy tales aren't enough. Parker - well, duh. Riley -- loving someone and wanting to love someone are not the same thing.

Spike -- passion is not enough. Actually, I'm not sure about that last one. I usually just put my fngers in my ears and go "la la la" when Joss tries to tell me about Spike and Buffy.

I think Joss uses each of Buffy's boyfriends as a cautionary tale to the young females in his audience.
Well he's on record saying that Parker was her most important partner... *g*

I usually just put my fngers in my ears and go "la la la" when Joss tries to tell me about Spike and Buffy.
Pfft! He's totally a Spuffy shipper - listen to his Chosen commentary. During the B/A scenes he waffles about lighting and how great the actors are. During the B/S scenes he All. About. The. Characters! (He's just also a bastard, hence the no-Spuffy ending of NFA.)

[i]This is Riley's tragedy - Buffy would never, ever need him the way he wanted her to. [/i]

Exactly! They just expected different things out of the relationship. And like I said before, my hangup with Riley was that he had no reason to think she was the type of person who *would* need him like that. That and the way he turned that around and threw it in her face, as if it was some kind of deficiency on her part... *deep breath*

They just expected different things out of the relationship.
Indeed.

I think Riley never really understand what being a Slayer meant... he saw it as being some sort of super-soldier, when what it is about is sacrificing everything for the mission if necessary. Riley was forever focussing on the physical, but Buffy's 'thing' for vampires was never about anything that simple. Of course Spike's 'she needs a little monster in her man' didn't help at all and just got Riley's thoughts fixed on the wrong issue.

See what I also thought of was 'I'm not ready for you not to be there.' Which implies need - and the knowledge that she has to overcome it. Because that's what being a Slayer is...

Poor Buffy.

Riley was forever focussing on the physical

Agree again, and it's perfectly illustrated with the Faith fiasco, not being able to differentiate even during intimacy when earlier, we had Buffy seeing Giles despite his appearance and being mid-slay.

Spike was quite the Devil's Advocate, wasn't he? Hehe.

not being able to differentiate even during intimacy when earlier, we had Buffy seeing Giles despite his appearance and being mid-slay.
That's a very good comparison... although Riley was very good for Faith!

Spike was quite the Devil's Advocate, wasn't he? Hehe.
Indeed. Very Angelus-like actually... not lying, but using an unhelpful part of the truth.

Riley was very good for Faith

Riley was instrumental in destroying Faith. :) Riley made Faith realise her life was empty and meaningless, and after leaving him her only wish was to kill Faith and become Buffy.

"You're the Slayer."
"The one and only."

As for the general point: I do like your insight that when Buffy says "stronger", she's not talking about physical strength; that's a distinction that's often lost. Howver, I'm not sure that she could have never made it work with him: if Riley had been around in S7 instead of Spike it might have been his arms she slept in that night.

S5 Buffy was still trying to bear the entire weight of the world on her shoulders, and it almost broke her. In S6, she had to struggle to pick up the pieces. In S7, she made the first moves towards getting some help bearing that weight, but had to work out how to ask.

Riley was instrumental in destroying Faith. :) Riley made Faith realise her life was empty and meaningless, and after leaving him her only wish was to kill Faith and become Buffy.

Riley helped destroy the Faith that Faith never really wanted to be. Faith's life was empty -- and she wishes to kill herself because she doesn't believe she can ever actually be a good person and have a good life. Angel helps her realize that she can, and because of that she emerges from the series a much stronger and healthier person than she could ever have thought when she first showed up in Sunnydale.

Riley made Faith realise her life was empty and meaningless
Exactly. He showed her what it's like being loved. (Read this review of 'Who Are You'. V. good!)

As for the general point: I do like your insight that when Buffy says "stronger", she's not talking about physical strength; that's a distinction that's often lost.
Thank you. :) And I think I should recommend this drabble by

st_saileri - it is the best Riley piece I've ever come across.

Howver, I'm not sure that she could have never made it work with him: if Riley had been around in S7 instead of Spike it might have been his arms she slept in that night.
::Scrubs out brain:: (Sorry, but sweetest Spuffy moment *ever* needs to be far away from any Riley-ness). Now - I'm not saying that they couldn't have made it work, but I very much doubt Riley would have coped with S6 Buffy. She was cutting herself off from deeper feelings in S5, but in S6 she was struggling to feel anything at all. Even Spike got tired of being used... and he got much, much less than Riley did in S5.

I think that post-Chosen Buffy could probably work it out with an 'ordinary' guy if necessary, since the mission needn't come first anymore. (Except of course that she ends up with Spike & Angel! *g*)

'Course that's also why Buffy won't work with anyone, in the long run. Even Spike couldn't bear that kind of relationship indefinitely.

Oh but 'Chosen' changes all that.

Faith: Yeah, you're not the one and only chosen anymore. Just gotta live like a person. How's that feel?

Well, one hopes. But Buffy herself said that it wasn't just being the Slayer that made her push people away, so I'm not sure it's that simple.

swsa says below, the major shift comes in 'Touched'. Of course Buffy *does* lean on Spike greatly throughout S6 and S7 (early S6 esp shows Buffy letting Spike 'be there for her' the way Riley wanted to), but Touched is the great divider. She lets Spike in, acknowledging that she needs him ("Will you just... hold me?") and later thanking him for giving her strength. It's exactly what Riley asked for and never got. She lets Spike be close.

Well, I would also say that by the end, Buffy WAS willing to need Spike and let him be there for her. That's what makes Touched so important. I know a lot of non-Buffy fans hate it because they think she's being selfish, but that's kind of the point. She's willing to let Spike see her at her lowest and she wants him to help her. Which is what Riley was begging her for ("It's about me taking care of you!"). We saw her willing to be there for Riley a lot in S4, but we never really saw her willing to let Riley do the same for her when she needed it. While with Spike, without even being aware of it, she was willing to open up about her problems. Hell, most of the reason S6 was such a mess was because Buffy realized just how far she had already let Spike in and she panicked.

She's willing to let Spike see her at her lowest and she wants him to help her. Which is what Riley was begging her for ("It's about me taking care of you!").
::lots of vigorous nodding::

Hell, most of the reason S6 was such a mess was because Buffy realized just how far she had already let Spike in and she panicked.
Exactly.

(I really have nothing to add. We are in perfect agreement!)

Nicely said.

This is Riley's tragedy - Buffy would never, ever need him the way he wanted her to.
And, IMO, a big part of that is Riley's absurb expectations of her. Her Mother is dying and he can't handle her being preoccupied with her Mother's health and well being. Of course Buffy cares for him but she's the Slayer and that means the job comes first and at the moment, Mom comes second. And somehow being third on the list (or possibly fourth depending on how you view her care for Dawn) just doesn't sit right with him; which, IMO, is incredibly selfish of him.
And therfore we can only assume that Sam must convince him that her world revolves are his wants and needs. Which makes our view of the marriage in AYW a lot more flawed than it appears. But then, of course, we are looking at it through Buffy's eyes.

And somehow being third on the list (or possibly fourth depending on how you view her care for Dawn) just doesn't sit right with him; which, IMO, is incredibly selfish of him.
*nods* It's understandable, but I doubt he realises how badly hurt she was by Angel - she learned the hardest way possible that the mission should always come first.

And therfore we can only assume that Sam must convince him that her world revolves are his wants and needs.
Not necessarily, but I think theirs is a fairly normal marriage - f.ex. if she was to become pregnant she could quite the demon hunting squad and so could he... they have options that Buffy never did.

And therfore we can only assume that Sam must convince him that her world revolves are his wants and needs. Which makes our view of the marriage in AYW a lot more flawed than it appears.

Either that, or Sam broke him of that bad habit. I think it's possible because while Buffy tended to bottle up her negative feelings until she exploded (or the problem went away--and how often does that happen in the Jossverse?), Sam seemed the type to get those feelings off her chest right away. How many times did she bawl him out? The way I see it, Riley needed someone who would give him propmt feedback on his wrong behavior; someone who'd smack him upside his head and say: "Hey, Stupid! Stop being stupid!"

(Not that I think that there's anything wrong with Buffy being a 'stewer' rather than an 'exploder'; both types have their strengths and weaknesses. It's just that sometimes one's a better 'fit' than the other.)

Either that, or Sam broke him of that bad habit. [..] Sam seemed the type to get those feelings off her chest right away.
::nods:: I really like Sam/Riley (and have even written them!), and think she was just what he needed!

Buffy just had so much baggage, and such a tendency to shut down, that she needed someone as obsessive as Spike to get through to her.

When I think of Spike in season 7, obsessive is not at all the word that comes to mind. IMO, they had more of a push-pull pattern going in the last two seasons, with Buffy doing most of the pulling in S7. She's got her own obsessive streak too.

When I think of Spike in season 7, obsessive is not at all the word that comes to mind
That *was* rather badly phrased... what I meant is that he puts up with far, far worse treatment (in S6) from Buffy than Riley ever did (in S5), and yet never walks away. This is partly because of what I touched upon in this post - Riley wants Buffy to make him feel a certain way. When she doesn't, he leaves. Spike (of course) wanted Buffy to love him, but he never needed it the same way - and in S7 he's content just to love her, expecting nothing in return.

Post-Soul, Spike still being known as the guy who never leaves doesn't sit well with me. Twice he begs Buffy to kill him, offers to leave town in First Date, and finally there's the not contacting Buffy controversy. Shades of both Angel and Riley. But paraphrasing Joss, Buffy digs Spike more when he tries ties to withdraw, which at least to me explains S7 Spuffy. Heh, yeah, My Spuffy can't help being messed up. They so want to be better though and that's what makes them rootable in a 'I wish those two crazy kids had been able to make it work' way. YMMV. :)

I know I'm replying extra extra late, so you probably don't care lol.

Spike still being known as the guy who never leaves doesn't sit well with me.
Oh no. That's not it. Spike is The Guy Who Always Comes Back. Before soul and after. And I'm sure he'd try to contact her at *some* point post-NFA... Essentially I think his problem is that he's scared that she *does* love him!

(And of course they'll make it work! *points to icon*)

I know I'm replying extra extra late, so you probably don't care lol.
Late comments are always welcome. :)

I really enjoy reading essays about Riley that do not include "Boring bigoted jerk", thank you so much for these insightful essays.

I'm starting to really like Riley lately, he's such a sweetie, I especially love his scenes with Buffy's friends.

I really enjoy reading essays about Riley that do not include "Boring bigoted jerk"
Hee! I don't love Riley - he's just a bit too bland - but I can certainly see where he comes from. He's just... nice.

Poor Buffy! It's a lonely life all right.

Very insightful, as always.

Poor Buffy! It's a lonely life all right.
I love that Chosen changed all that! (And then she settles down with Spike and Angel... *g*)

And thank you. :)

Beautiful exposition. Thanks once again for laying out your thoughts for us.

BTW, is c4j's Spuffy soundtrack downloadable from somewhere?

Thank you! :) And I can't really help the sharing thing... it comes as standard with the obsession I think! *g*

And I don't think the soundtrack is downloadable anymore (it's more than a year old at least)... but if you like I could zip it for you and send it your way?

Oh, I would love that, if it's not too much trouble! You can send to:

elm.morgan@gmail.com

thanks thanks thanks! I'm too lazy to put together my own soundtracks, so I love collecting other people's...

My pleasure! :) Should be with you as soon as it's uploaded!

...the strength to walk to her own death when 16 years old. The strength to kill the love of her life. The strength to carry to weight of the world on her shoulders and not let up, because no one else can carry her burden...

This is why I ♥ Buffy so much.

And Spike, for understanding her so thoroughly.

Your essays make me go sniffly at my desk at work! And smile at the same time. :~)

Your essays make me go sniffly at my desk at work! And smile at the same time. :~)
Aw, thanks! And I *heart* my sweet OTP too! :)

Riley misunderstands here there. She is NOT talking about physical strength.

That's a pretty great point in a pretty great essay.

Thanks! :) It was all suddenly so obvious!

I'm not saying that Riley should have let Buffy use him the way she was, but he left because she didn't make him feel a certain way:

Riley misunderstands here there. She is NOT talking about physical strength.

No, I think he gets that. It's much simpler. He's in love with her, and he wants her to love him as much as he loves her. He wants someone he can have a long term with. Buffy doesn't love him like that, and she doesn't want that long term. And he leaves because he doesn't want to settle.

There's lots of pointless and possibly unecessary drama, because Buffy maybe doesn't realize this, or if she does - doesn't want to tell him that. Doesn't want to have to end what is a good short term deal for her - but keeping that going would have required her investing more in him than she could given her own stresses.

At the end of the day, they break down because she's not just that into him. They should. And they both do some dumb/insentive things, Riley more than Buffy, but there's no real villain.

Which, I think, makes it interesting and relatable.

Buffy doesn't love him like that, and she doesn't want that long term. And he leaves because he doesn't want to settle.
Oh absolutely. I don't dispute that at all. But I think that he misunderstands what being a Slayer is... he focusses on the physical - lets himself get bit because he wants to understand what her deal with vampires is. But that's never what it was about - we see in S6 that Spike never once bites Buffy and she never wants him to. It's *partly* to do with the inner darkness that she has, but I don't think it had to have been such an obstacle. Mostly it's the fact that Riley would *always* be secondary to the mission - which for Buffy is such a fundamental truth that she doesn't even think about it anymore (she had to kill Angel).

At the end of the day, they break down because she's not just that into him. They should. And they both do some dumb/insentive things, Riley more than Buffy, but there's no real villain.
*nods* Spring Summers has an excellnt analysis of them here.

Also I have to recommend this drabble by

st_salieri which is the best encapsulation of Riley I have ever read!

I think that he misunderstands what being a Slayer is... he focusses on the physical - lets himself get bit because he wants to understand what her deal with vampires is. But that's never what it was about

I think the story focuses on the physical as metaphorical for the emotional quite frequently. (S7 is weakened in many ways because the writing focuses treatment of power too heavily on physical might rather than other types of power) But I don't see that Riley makes this mistake.

He's a psych major, and he holds a leadership position in the military. And in my work experience - physical power is a limited part of what makes someone rise in the service. He knows it's not just physical. If it were just physical there would be room to work...

Mostly it's the fact that Riley would *always* be secondary to the mission

I'm not even sure it's that. He's a military commander of some rank. He's had friends who were also subordinates. He's had to make life or death decisions over them. He knows and gets the concept. He's lived it.

The issue is, could it work with Buffy? Unlike with Walsh, he still believes in Buffy's mission. What he doesn't believe, is that Buffy has a place for him within that.

And, truthfully, she doesn't. Buffy has so much responsibility that she doesn't want to have to also take that on with her friends and SO's. It's easier for her with Giles, Xander and Willow, who are usually friends but had generally accepted that she would call the shots when she felt she had to.

It worked easier for her with Angel and Spike, who might challenge her on a point or two but don't need things explained - Spike because it is his nature to follow and Angel because he understands her as a fellow natural leader.

Riley, OTOH, comes by this dynamic through training and structure and he needs things explained. Buffy doesn't like or want to have to do that.

But, for that work, it would require Buffy to accept that dynamic as well, and to come out and directly/nakedly tell him that this was his role.

Yeah - hooking up with the VampHo is an aim to get a physical manifestation of what he's lacked emotionally but it's also acting out designed to force a confrontation.

He's often wanted Buffy to plainly and nakedly define what their roles are, and he's frustrated as much by her unwillingness to define as he is by what that actual definition is. (How rarely does Buffy ever lay out a "this, specifically, is what I need from you?) I think he's both disappointed and relieved by the end of their relationship, because at least he's not uncertain about where they stand.

I'm willing to believe he could have accepted a subordinate role, and equally willing to believe that this is not how Buffy likes her relationships to work.

It's more just a point of where they don't match - because he needs and wants structure out of a woman, and is in love with a woman who is very much not the structure-hierarchy type. You can work on that if you both love each other enough to find compromises (he'd have to compromise more than her) but it's kind of pointless if you don't.

I really don't have much to add to this, since it was all very insightful.

It's more just a point of where they don't match - because he needs and wants structure out of a woman, and is in love with a woman who is very much not the structure-hierarchy type. You can work on that if you both love each other enough to find compromises (he'd have to compromise more than her) but it's kind of pointless if you don't.
This is very spot-on! I actually wrote an essay once about that point in particular (chaos/order), so I think we're pretty much in agreement! :)

Oh yeah, definitely a lot of agreement over this.

The one note I would have here is that in a world where character interactions aren't limited by contractual requirements... I don't think there's any reason they couldn't wind up forging some sort of a decent professional/working relationship. (Although Buffy, at 22 doesn't really do professionalism yet...)

Riley, as a useful resource for her. (He has access to government funding and manpower!) And Buffy as someone who could solve problems Riley would discover and know are beyond what his hierarchy could handle. You know, as long as they had some sort of loosely structured agreement - and somebody other than Buffy to handle the details.

The one note I would have here is that in a world where character interactions aren't limited by contractual requirements... I don't think there's any reason they couldn't wind up forging some sort of a decent professional/working relationship.
That's a good point. And hey - who knows what the comic books might bring?

She actually does seek him out for help with Spike's chip in S7, which I think shows a certain growth on her part - learning to ask for help, knowing when something is beyond her. She doesn't get it perfect that season, but it's a first step, admitting the need for help. That it's motivated to help someone she cares about is a common human motivation.

but there's no real villain.

I agree with almost everything you say here except that. When Riley did not show up to patrol as the Scoobies expected and therefore left them in danger (while Buffy felt comfort in knowing that he was with them), he started to become, if not a villain, then at least a bit more than just "dumb/insensitive". He said he wanted Buffy to NEED him, but failed to show up when she needed him to be with her friends and protect them. I suppose he needed her to need him in very specific ways, but the fact is he put the Scoobies in danger; then went off getting his vampire suck jobs. That is just ABUSIVE, and incredibly disrespectful of Buffy IMO.

Now it certainly does make him a more interesting character, and makes sense in light of a lot of things, but blaming Buffy outright is like a drug user blaming other people for their addiction.

I'm not sure what I'm "blaming Buffy outright for" -- Riley wants a partner that can put the romantic relationship first. A lot of people are looking for that out of a relationship in their twenties. Buffy's sense of mission precludes this - she wants a partner that can be subordinate to her mission. That's who she is, and he knows it. So that's his problem, not hers.

Riley's behavior is terrible and passive aggressive, but "All Caps Abusive" seems like a stretch to me. Sure, Buffy feels comfort when he patrols with the Scoobies, but our boyfriends and girlfriends do exist beyond their ability to provide comfort to us. Riley was "State Farm" reliable most of the time, so an occaisional truancy would not seem to be too much of a crime. Buffy's friends have patrolled without her (or Angel / Riley / Spike) many times.

If you want a really high standard... Buffy herself has blown off patrol many a time. And one could consider that she leaves the world exposed to tremendous risk every night she isn't out their doing her all. Multiple people have died on nights Buffy took off. But I think that's an unfair standard to hold anyone to. Whether Riley, Buffy, Willow, Angel or Spike. People need to take nights off, just to stay healthy and sane, and one has to trust the world to keep spinning if there isn't a known apocalypse looming ... even if you don't have the greatest backup in the world covering your hours.

The real problem is that Riley blew off relationship space in order to meet needs he wanted from Buffy without ever communicating his problems to her. Maybe a different girlfriend somehow sees this coming and gets proactive to help them face their misaligned needs. But that is not Buffy Summers. I think Riley knows that. Through action and inaction, Riley is inviting a breakup.

Edited 2012-09-04 20:21 (UTC)

I'm not sure what I'm "blaming Buffy outright for"

I apologize if my wording wasn't clear - I didn't mean that YOU were blaming Buffy. I meant Riley, Xander, Buffy herself and to a degree the show's writers (does Riley apologize to her in AYW?) I wasn't targeting you.

"All Caps Abusive"
I'm not sure what you mean by that; I've grown up with and lived with all sorts of levels of abuse (physical, verbal, etc) and I know that there are certainly levels of abuse, but I'm not familiar with that phrase. I do see his behavior as abusive, or at the least terribly disrespectful.

Buffy herself has blown off patrol many a time. And one could consider that she leaves the world exposed to tremendous risk every night she isn't out their doing her all. Multiple people have died on nights Buffy took off. But I think that's an unfair standard to hold anyone to.

I agree, and I'm not trying to address every incident in the show. I meant to be more specific but didn't look up the episode title, and still don't have to hand now, where Buffy is in the hospital with Joyce and tells her that she can stay because Riley is patrolling with the Scoobies, then cut to the cemetary and the Scoobs (most vocally Xander) are wondering where Riley is. So apparently he was expected there by all parties, or that's how I think it's meant to be interpreted. Certainly the characters are wondering why he's not there, so there's a sense of some sort of committment blow off. (It could have been a loose as "sure I'll be there" but we never see that scene.)

And as we know from the show itself, every time someone doesn't follow up on a duty or a committment, bad things happen (Buffy failing to kill Angel leading to Jenny's death is not an exact one-to-one example, but loosely in the ballpark I think.)

The real problem is that Riley blew off relationship space in order to meet needs he wanted from Buffy without ever communicating his problems to her. Maybe a different girlfriend somehow sees this coming and gets proactive to help them face their misaligned needs. But that is not Buffy Summers. I think Riley knows that. Through action and inaction, Riley is inviting a breakup.

See I agree with this entire paragraph 100%; so I don't think we disagree fundamentally, just in terms of semantics, or slight shift in viewpoints, like two neighboring facets on the same diamond.

I'm not familiar with that phrase. I do see his behavior as abusive, or at the least terribly disrespectful.

I agree that it's disrespectful - I don't think anyone would dispute that. But you wrote the word "Abusive" in all caps -- which is the equivalent of screaming in internet parlance. There is a very long step from inconsiderate/disrespectful behavior to abusive behavior, and Riley's behavior far closer in the range of the former than the latter. Outside of Scott Hope, he's the lease abusive of Buffy's boyfriends.

In any case, I think we're probably talking past each other. The characters, and show, do criticize Buffy here - and it may be artless and grating, but there is a point to be made. Her boyfriend is unhappy and unfulfilled in the relationship, and she is too preoccupied (and those preoccupations of hers are very legitimate...) to notice and seems unwilling to address it. But if you are going to have a relationship and ask for devotion, you also do need to have consideration to your partner's aspiration. There's a duty either give someone more of what they need, or to let them go if you can't or won't.

Viewership of the show has the bad habit of viewing Riley as an interloper, treating his perspective as if it's not legitimate and unnecessarily vilifying him. (It's not enough for them to be a bad match, he has to be a jerk of epic proportions...)

To me, the real point of their relationship is that they just don't really fit together long term. So how do you handle being in a relationship you shouldn't stay in and how do you get out of it. That sort of story is anathema to the grand shipping culture of fandom, which I think, is a big part of why Buffy/Riley gets such a terrible shake whenever it's discussed.
Breakups like this are pretty true to life, if not some of the more fantastical story elements. A girlfriend and I broke up mutually because were conducting job searches that would take us to different cities and realized we just didn't belong together.

I do apologize for using all caps - that's something I know not to do; I apparently allowed myself to get carried away emotionally and didn't double-check myself before hitting "post". Being abusive to protest abuse is no excuse.

There is a very long step from inconsiderate/disrespectful behavior to abusive behavior, and Riley's behavior far closer in the range of the former than the latter.

I'll agree to disagree on this.

That sort of story is anathema to the grand shipping culture of fandom, which I think, is a big part of why Buffy/Riley gets such a terrible shake whenever it's discussed.

Obviously I do take Riley seriously in context of Buffy's journey, whatever my criticisms, as I tried to express in my last post. So I will try to say simply: I LIKED him in S4 and thought he was very good and healing for Buffy, and that overall her relationship with him was the most positive in terms of sexuality/lovemaking. (Discussions at My Buffyholism is Showing are my point of reference here.)

I also think the break up, in terms of canon, was more devastating/scarring than is given credit for, but that's something I can write about on my own journal instead of going in circles here.

The writers might have made AYW much better of course, by showing Riley and Sam as a more "real" couple, less perfect in every way. It would have been interesting if Buffy's view of them as "perfect couple" had been contrasted with how everyone else sees them - that is, more realistically human and complex, but throughout the show Riley/Sam are perfect, shiny, wise, supportive, (if a bit cardboard-ish) to all of Buffy's friends as well (they see her the same as she does and so the viewer is given no option but to see them that way as well.) Writing it that way would have made sense within the theme of Buffy's depression as well (distortion of reality).

Riley misunderstands here there. She is NOT talking about physical strength. She is talking about the [...] strength to carry to weight of the world on her shoulders and not let up, because no one else can carry her burden

Nice clarification. It's good to see some meta on Riley that doesn't just dismiss him. I thought a sign that their relationship was doomed came very early on, when Riley said he loved her because she was "a mystery", and Buffy said she just wanted a "nice, normal guy". By the end of "Hush" Buffy has realized that he isn't the essence of normality she had pictured him to be, and Riley is starting to see that there is a reality behind the mystery that he might not be able to handle.

Nice clarification.
I'm glad it works. :)

It's good to see some meta on Riley that doesn't just dismiss him.
Buffy dated him for more than a year... so clearly there was something to their relationship. Which is the sort of stuff I love trying to unpick.

I thought a sign that their relationship was doomed came very early on, when Riley said he loved her because she was "a mystery", and Buffy said she just wanted a "nice, normal guy".
::nods a lot::

(I also wrote a long post about that a while ago if you feel like reading more! :) Anyway, thanks for commenting.

Oh, wow. Definitely. Never quite got that in those words, that makes so much sense.

When Riley's saying he wish Buffy would have let him in when she found out about her mom...it's not about wanting to help her so much as wanting her to be vulnerable with him. Which is why she feels she can't be, and goes to Spike.

Oh, wow. Definitely. Never quite got that in those words, that makes so much sense.
*beams* I felt terribly clever when I first thought of it. I love it when something suddenly clicks.

it's not about wanting to help her so much as wanting her to be vulnerable with him.
*nods* The correct response to a situation like that is 'What can I do?' (which is pretty much what Spike says) - you don't dictate what kind of help you're going to offer/what other people need. (Riley doesn't understand the difference, I don't think.)

The correct response to a situation like that is 'What can I do?' (which is pretty much what Spike says) - you don't dictate what kind of help you're going to offer/what other people need. (Riley doesn't understand the difference, I don't think.)

YES, you just boiled the entire thing down brilliantly.

*QUOTES EVERY SINGLE WORD*
I love your thoughts about Buffy.
Actually, I've always felt pity for Riley in season 5 while, looking past to season 4, I can't even stand him. I mean, he's a good guy after all and it's funny his interaction with Willow or Xander, but he and Buffy are BOOORING! Zero chemistry between them, plus Spike is a perfect companion for the Slayer so there's really no contest. *does a little spuffy dance*
But, yes, she's stronger and braver than him and he doesn't accept that.
And he kinda have more chemistry with troll!Angel. *uhms*

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Buffy/Riley... why it didn't work.

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Hi! In here from the Sunnydale Herald...

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