elisi | Them comics...

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Them comics...

OK, I've been pondering the whole comic book thing and reading various posts, and here's my two cents (or should that be pennies?).

You know what my first thought was upon seeing the outfit? 'Thank goodness she's finally wearing something approximating armour!' Oh it's unflattering, and the pockets are *ugly*, but I'm thinking that if the new Slayers had been wearing something similar in Chosen more of them would have made it out alive. And since Buffy wants to keep them alive, and has to set a good example, she's wearing the stuff too! The gun is obviously not a gun, but some sort of 'forcefield zapper'. *shrug* She's on a mission, and I doubt she'll be wearing only one outfit through the whole season. The Riley-ness of it is unappealing, but - as

shapinglight put it - don't judge a book by a few pages. Just as you shouldn't judge BtVS by f.ex. 'Bad Eggs' alone!

Now about the ret-con... I like it. Although it's going to co-exist with the previous canon version in my head. Let me try to explain:

1) Buffy dating The Immortal. I like The Immortal - or rather I like all the possibilites he opens up. He's a blank canvas characterwise, and writers have done incredible things with him (he's probably my favourite thing about 'Three Deep' and

treacle_a's version is also *amazing*!) I like the fact that Buffy is having fun in her new life, and that Mr Perfect is her rebound guy.

2) There are 3 'Buffies', and one of the extras is dating The Immortal. First of all, this is a fantabulous gift for Spuffies everywhere. The giant big obstacle in the path of true love has been poofed away! Woohoo! Second, it makes TGiQ *so* much better. I always liked it, but Andrew (although entertaining) always felt a little off. But if the whole thing is *his* idea, and *his* set-up, his behaviour makes more than perfect sense: He's been allowed to write his own Buffy fanfic, and my goodness but he grasps the chance! It explains why Buffy is never there, but more importantly it shifts the focus back on Spike and Angel, rather than shipping wars, and possible anger at Buffy. So yeah, this is going to be canon to me as far as that episode is concerned! :)

The other thing of course, is that people have spent what seems like forever having an Immortal shaped problem in their fic (unless they choose to develop him, as mentioned above). I don't think I've ever come across a fic that dared ret-con him away like that. And yet Joss just did it, and I'm sure there are many, many writers muttering to themselves 'Why didn't I do that?' The answer of course being that people would think it rather ridiculous! Heh.

I think that was all - in any case I have to run. Oh - I also meant to say that as far as I can tell, S8 will take place concurrently with S5 of AtS, so in a way it's only filling out all the blanks between the snippets we've been told. I think I would like to know more. Some people have said that they want to know what happened after NFA. Not me. I am immensely grateful that Joss won't be touching the perfect ending, and if he ever does I might have to give it a miss. I just don't want to know.

ETA: The comics are like canon back-up! At least that's my take. :)

For anyone who might have missed it - I posted the Epilogue to Illyria, Alone on Friday.

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Have you seen these samples?

I may be wrong but I've got the impression that the artist had been ordered to make Xander ship-worthy here. :)

But, seriously, what are Joss' options? With Spike and Angel being the property of IDW it's either Xander or a totally new character. And in the latter case he Joss won't have the audience investment. When writer deals with familiar characters there is the actor's momentum, so-to-speak: the audience may make the characters three-dimensional by imagining SMG's Buffy, JM's Spike, DB's Angel or NB's Xander. A new character will stay two-dimensional no matter how brilliantly Joss depicts him. The magic of real person playing him isn't there.

Besides, ending the show with Buffy\Xander ship was Joss' original intention from the get-go.

Buffy/Xander? Well to quote Wesley (speaking of another couple, of course, but the sentiment holds) :

"Well - that's a difficult question. I think it's fair to say - no. Not a chance, never, no way, not in a million years, and also 'nuh-uh.'"
Fredless

Sorry, but that ship never sailed. The most B/X ep is 'Beer Bad' for goodness sake! The point of Buffy right now is that she's baking - and it'll be Spike or Angel doing the eating (or in my head, both of them!). And since they're not going to show up - no smooches for the Buffster.

But Xander/Dawn... now *that* has possibilites! (Since Dawn wasn't even a twinkle in Joss' eye at the start of the series, I think he's probably changed his mind. Also ~~all~~ most of fandom would probably hate him if he went for B/X, as well as it making not one bit of sense, characterwise. Willow is more likely to admit being bi and hooking up with Xander. At least they've done the smooching thing!)

Oh, dear. Those wrestling matches with oil. If it makes you happy, I suppose. I'm a Cangel, then a Nangel. Bangel is long gone. Period. Yup.

Ick - Dawn and Xander? Blech.

I think pairing Buffy with an original character could work just as well as Riley - or even better. It depends on how you view comics. If you view them as tertiary art, then no, it's not going to work as well. If you are willing to see them as equal but different to the show, then the ship will probably be able to stand on its own merits (as Riley did - though he eventually fell).

Darn, I'm rambly.

Oh, dear. Those wrestling matches with oil. If it makes you happy, I suppose.
Heee! I *adore* Spike/Angel, but only very specific S/A that fits with canon. So far I've found 4 or 5 fics that fit my criteria more or less. It's much more about the friendship for me, although they are *very* pretty!

I'm a Cangel, then a Nangel. Bangel is long gone. Period. Yup.
Same here. The B/A would be more of a side product of S/A and S/B... (I hope that makes sense).

Ick - Dawn and Xander? Blech.
Really? I think it's a lovely pairing. Wait a few years until Dawn's grown up of course, but I think it can really work.

I think pairing Buffy with an original character could work just as well as Riley
I don't really have any problems with that. And much rather an original character than say Xander.

First off, your layout is GORGEOUS (esp. that banner!)

I generally agree with what everyone's saying about the comic. I don't think I'm going to go buy them, because I like the canon from the shows and not the supplemental stuff. Everything that I've seen about the comics doesn't really make me jump up and down...and I'm not really pleased that Joss just magicked away the whole Buffy's-dating-the-Immortal-in-Angel-s5 debacle. I don't think it was necessarily in character for Buffy (if it was in fact the REAL Buffy) to date him but I rationalize it to myself by saying she's either crazy from grief over Spike or that she's using him for his resources. I like living in this fantasy world.

I think if the comics ended up as B/X that would cheapen everything that the show worked towards. I can see that Xander is safe and comfortable, and has stood by her for so long unwaveringly (except that one time, and the times he hated Angel and Spike...) but I just can't see them together. If anyone, I agree with the person who said Xander/Dawn would get together. It seems like a lot of fic has Xander and Dawn getting together, and I can see that a lot easier than B/X.

Okay, now I'm rambling. I go now. =)

First off, your layout is GORGEOUS
Prettiest Christmas banner ever! :) Made by the delightful

kathyh after I made a semi-serious request! :)

I like living in this fantasy world.
Fantasty worlds are good! If you'd like a different take, I wrote some drabbles: Snapshots of Buffy during AtS S5.

If anyone, I agree with the person who said Xander/Dawn would get together.
::holds up hand:: And yes to B/X cheapening the show! Just ain't gonna happen.

And rambling is good - it's pretty much all I do here on LJ. :)

ooh, thanks for the rec. I enjoy your writing! And I realized after I posted that you made the X/D comment, but I was too lazy to go back and fix it for just that.

How's everything in your neck of the woods?

(no subject)

elisi - 2006-12-11 21:37 (UTC) - Expand

I don't think Xander/Dawn is a good idea, just because I don't see Xander with someone like Dawn (though with the Keyness and all, I can't really say what Dawn is like). Plus, it seems too easy.

I disagree that the comics are supplemental. From everything Joss has said, the comics are just as important as the show, and he is writing them because he loves the characters and has new stories which make him want to continue the series. It's not a reason to continue to make merchandise for an already finished franchise.

The most B/X ep is 'Beer Bad' for goodness sake!

I saw more tension in other eps. I think the most B/X ep is Phases, or at least that moment where he holds her and she gives him that look. I saw sparkles there. Also at the end of Inca The Mummy:

Buffy: I remember how I felt when I heard the prophecy that I was gonna
die. I wasn't exactly obsessed with doing the right thing.

Xander: Yeah, but you did. You gave up your life.

Buffy: I had you to bring me back.

They give each other thin smiles for a moment before continuing on.

There's also the sexy dance, which was, well, sexy. :)

The closest they got to it in S7 was the stares she and him shared in the kitchen during End of Days.

Anyway, I don't think it'll happen. I like them better as brother and sister who play father and mother to Dawn. Makes them far more special, I especially love the hand squeeze they gave each other in Chosen. If it was more than a brother/sister thing, it'll lose its special-ness.

Also most of fandom would probably hate him if he went for B/X, as well as it making not one bit of sense, characterwise.

I don't like the idea of Buffy and Xander together. I love it when a guy and girl become friends and be just that: friends. Angel and Cordy lost their appeal when they fell in love IMO. Xander and Buffy have a special relationship and it'll be ruined if they got together.

As for it not making sense... maybe right now. But if Joss wrote a good arc about it, I guess it'll make sense. Nothing's impossible in my book. Spuffy didn't make sense during S2, but then we had a great arc about Spike changing and devoting his unlife for Buffy... and eventually it made sense.

But Angel and Cordy were so cute together! And You're Welcome was so sad!

Sorry, but that ship never sailed. The most B/X ep is 'Beer Bad' for goodness sake! The point of Buffy right now is that she's baking - and it'll be Spike or Angel doing the eating (or in my head, both of them!).

It's tricky. First of all, I'm a Spuffy. People even call me a diehard Spuffy although I read and enjoy other ships.

Now the tricky part. This is my highly subjective opinion and I may be wrong. I think it was Joss who made me a Spuffy, not my perversive imagination. I honestly believe that it was Joss' intention and if he hadn't intended the Spuffy ship to sail it couldn't have happened.
But Joss' stories always have the beginning, the middle and the end. Chosen has been the absolute pinnacle of Spuffy - and, at the same time, the ship's end. Joss told everything he wanted to tell about Buffy's relationship with Spike, so he ended the ship beautifully, cruelly and unforgettably. Is it better or worse that BA slowly agonizing during five years of AtS? I don't know.

Sorry for rambling - I just want to say that Joss is evil enough and talented enough to make Bander happen convincingly. He never tried to put afloat Bander ship yet. Not really. That alone may be a challenge for him - to convince fandom of something nobody finds possible.

Then again, I'll be on cloud nine if Joss ends the comics on a Spuffy vibe. And I'd love to see Xander\Dawn or Xander\Willow ship.

no smooches for the Buffster

You may be right but it would be a waste. Ships are Jossverse's main strength.

As you said, it's not impossible. Xander already has a thing for Buffy, just like Spike had a thing for Buffy, and when did she start returning these feelings? A season later. It'd about developments.

However, I'm afraid I'd hate Bander so much just like I did with Cangel. I don't like when every guy who's a friend with a girl becomes her love intrest in the end. Why can't a guy and a girl just be friends?

I may be wrong but I've got the impression that the artist had been ordered to make Xander ship-worthy here. :)

LOL!!!! I think he did a great job with Xander, the best out of the others. Even though he needs to work harder on the upper lip. NB has that unique upper lip shaped like a baby's. Buffy and Willow look recognizable but poor Dawn doesn't look like MT at all.

I've always thought that Nicholas Brendon has that Mexican/Spanish look. He looks similar to some Middle Eastern guys I've met. Very handsome. I've always been attracted to that type. Italian/Spanish/Mexican guys do it for me. That's why I was probably attracted to NB from the first sight.

Hopefully S8 will go with Buffy having no love interest, I really wanna see a Buffy without a boyfriend, at least for a season. But even if they had one in mind, I'm sure it's not Xander. Xander is the big brother, and he'll always be. Many fans love him in that role even the Bander fans, I guess. My wish though is for Xander and Buffy both to be single.

My wish though is for Xander and Buffy both to be single.

I agree. I had the same feelings as moscowwatcher when I first heard about the comics, but I kind of think Joss will keep all the Scoobs, save Willow, shipless in the comics, at least for the first 'season'. With his past dealings with rabid shippers, I think that's going to be a minefield he'll stay clear of this time around.

Or we can only hope. *shifts uneasily*

I think that's going to be a minefield he'll stay clear of this time around.

"Some people never learn" (OMWF)
:))

Ha! Well, at the big picture level, it really doesn't seem likely, at least to me. He had the chance in S7 knowing it would be the last year and didn't do it, said it wouldn't be in character. I *think* he also said they'd never get together in an interview.

But he says alot of things and Buffy wearing that getup isn't in character, either. And in the end, I don't care a whole lot past how it's going to to affect Buffy discussion because it's not canon to me. If it isn't Sarah/Nick/James/etc. and looking pretty on my TV, then it isn't Buffy.

Sorry, Joss.

Hopefully S8 will go with Buffy having no love interest, I really wanna see a Buffy without a boyfriend, at least for a season.

But what it will be about? The missions? The training? The Council problems? I've already written in reply to elisi that ships are the most important aspect of Buffyverse.

Now imagine that Joss resurrected Anya for Xander and Tara for Willow. Or paired Xander with Dawn and brought back Oz for Willow. And, of course they all have issues and suffer (because it's Jossverse). Don't you think that boyfriend-less and issue-less Buffy will automatucally become the least interesting character in Scooby Gang?

Knowing Joss I suppose that the shippy stuff will start by the episode 3-5. Don't forget that Joss rhapsodized BA as "transcendent" yet made Buffy sleep with another guy in the 3rd episode into the next season and started Buffy\Riley ship in earnest by episode 8.

Damn, I fell like an old mare who hears the sound of the war-horn again. Yay spoiler-whoring! :)

ships are the most important aspect of Buffyverse.

Not for everyone. Personally I'll take character development over romance any day and there's plenty could be going on with Buffy and the others that doesn't hinge on a love interest. (Although just because she hasn't met the Immortal yet doesn't put him entirely out of the running.) Survivor guilt, how does she cope with all the bright young Slayers calling her ma'am to her face and "last year's girl" behind her back plus a myriad other things Joss will think of that I never can.

I agree. Truthfully, I've always seen Buffy's romances much in the same light as the monsters she faced--metaphors.

Shippiness is a whole lot different in a comic book than it is on a network aired television series. I really don't think there's anything to worry about on that front. And I say this as someone who's *loathed* every single thing I've seen about these comics so far.

Romance is not the first thing I look for in the show. I pretty much enjoy the core four dynamic between Buffy, Xander, Willow and Giles way more than romantic relationships.

I believe missions are the most focus, but I think there'll be sucky relationships that end badly in three issues... the Buffy/Parker type relationships. Probably.

Romance is not the first thing I look for in the show. I pretty much enjoy the core four dynamic between Buffy, Xander, Willow and Giles way more than romantic relationships.

Obviously, that's where we differ. I'm mostly attracted to romantic side - although I love Spuffy love-hate/snarkage/love-friendship more than BA straightforward romfnce.

I believe missions are the most focus,

I think in Jossverse missions has always been the means and the relationships have always been the ends.

but I think there'll be sucky relationships that end badly in three issues... the Buffy/Parker type relationships. Probably

Yes. We'll see. Now I'n starting to wonder which Buffy is real. Could all the three of them be the real deal? :)

Well, Willow and Xander look almost like themselves. But I'm not sure who those two other women in the drawing with them are.

I think that it makes Willow look like a clown.

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