elisi | Them comics...

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Them comics...

OK, I've been pondering the whole comic book thing and reading various posts, and here's my two cents (or should that be pennies?).

You know what my first thought was upon seeing the outfit? 'Thank goodness she's finally wearing something approximating armour!' Oh it's unflattering, and the pockets are *ugly*, but I'm thinking that if the new Slayers had been wearing something similar in Chosen more of them would have made it out alive. And since Buffy wants to keep them alive, and has to set a good example, she's wearing the stuff too! The gun is obviously not a gun, but some sort of 'forcefield zapper'. *shrug* She's on a mission, and I doubt she'll be wearing only one outfit through the whole season. The Riley-ness of it is unappealing, but - as

shapinglight put it - don't judge a book by a few pages. Just as you shouldn't judge BtVS by f.ex. 'Bad Eggs' alone!

Now about the ret-con... I like it. Although it's going to co-exist with the previous canon version in my head. Let me try to explain:

1) Buffy dating The Immortal. I like The Immortal - or rather I like all the possibilites he opens up. He's a blank canvas characterwise, and writers have done incredible things with him (he's probably my favourite thing about 'Three Deep' and

treacle_a's version is also *amazing*!) I like the fact that Buffy is having fun in her new life, and that Mr Perfect is her rebound guy.

2) There are 3 'Buffies', and one of the extras is dating The Immortal. First of all, this is a fantabulous gift for Spuffies everywhere. The giant big obstacle in the path of true love has been poofed away! Woohoo! Second, it makes TGiQ *so* much better. I always liked it, but Andrew (although entertaining) always felt a little off. But if the whole thing is *his* idea, and *his* set-up, his behaviour makes more than perfect sense: He's been allowed to write his own Buffy fanfic, and my goodness but he grasps the chance! It explains why Buffy is never there, but more importantly it shifts the focus back on Spike and Angel, rather than shipping wars, and possible anger at Buffy. So yeah, this is going to be canon to me as far as that episode is concerned! :)

The other thing of course, is that people have spent what seems like forever having an Immortal shaped problem in their fic (unless they choose to develop him, as mentioned above). I don't think I've ever come across a fic that dared ret-con him away like that. And yet Joss just did it, and I'm sure there are many, many writers muttering to themselves 'Why didn't I do that?' The answer of course being that people would think it rather ridiculous! Heh.

I think that was all - in any case I have to run. Oh - I also meant to say that as far as I can tell, S8 will take place concurrently with S5 of AtS, so in a way it's only filling out all the blanks between the snippets we've been told. I think I would like to know more. Some people have said that they want to know what happened after NFA. Not me. I am immensely grateful that Joss won't be touching the perfect ending, and if he ever does I might have to give it a miss. I just don't want to know.

ETA: The comics are like canon back-up! At least that's my take. :)

For anyone who might have missed it - I posted the Epilogue to Illyria, Alone on Friday.

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One of my reasons for not liking the retcon (apart from the whole disliking Andrew so intensely that the thought of having to accept that anyone is actually listening to him is very galling indeed) is that I just didn't see why Buffy shouldn't have some down-time after Chosen and if that meant dating a suave, sophisticated Italian then why the bloody hell shouldn't she?

However, I can see why Joss dispensed with the Immortal. Comics in general are not much about dating and having down-time, they're about action and fighting. Unless the Immortal was going to be a)the season's Big Bad or b) a super-powered ally he didn't really have a place in that.

:Goes back to the Andrew hating:

Well I love Andrew, so I'm happy to find a reason to excuse the only bit where I've come close to disliking him a little...

I think what I like is that we can all have our cake and eat it, more or less. Having two canons to choose from is kinda nice, and as I'm thinking about it more, I'm finding that they co-exist quite hapily in my head. :)

And I agree with your assesment of Joss' reasons. Which reminds me of something else I like - The Immortal will probably continue to be a blank, which is very good for fanfic!

::goes back to being an eternal optimist::

I just didn't see why Buffy shouldn't have some down-time after Chosen and if that meant dating a suave, sophisticated Italian then why the bloody hell shouldn't she?

Word.

I've seen fics that did the 'it was a body double dating the Immortal' thing. Some with Buffy's knowledge, and at least two where it was done without Buffy's knowledge as part of a plan to keep Spike away. In one it was purely arranged by Giles and Angel was also fooled, in another Angel was part of the plot too.

I'm very much against the gun - especially as a force-field zapper. Because they worked so well when the Initiative had them, right? Oh, yeah, they really didn't.

To me one of the prime advantages of the Slayer rests in her being apparently innocent and vulnerable. Armed and armoured that advantage disappears. She's suddenly playing on the same turf as the SAS, Delta Force, Marinejegerkommandoen, Spetsnatz, etc. And they are better trained for that kind of thing than she is, their Government funding will always be better than any private funding even if the new Council has millions at its disposal, and they will do a better job.

And the gun/blaster is really badly designed. A villain with an FNP-90 would chop her in half before she could swing that big clunky thing around, super reactions or not, and the FNP's ammo will go through body armour as if it was tissue paper.

I used to take things negatively because of the responses I saw in LJ, but now, I'm being nothing but positive. Limiting my thoughts to two words: MORE XANDER!!! Adding YAY! right after it.

I'm glad to see more people being positive about the comics. As for the gun thing, here are my thoughts which I had pointed somewhere else: My feelings about the gun thing aren't as strong as the others. Especially when I'm staring at Buffy in one of my S4 side-covers (just bought the season) and here she is holding a gun. She also killed the judge with one. Characters may say certain things but sometimes they do the opposite. It's the same with Xander who told Willow in Lover's Walk that he doesn't trust magic, especially without talking to Giles about it, then we see him irresponsibly summoning Sweet in OMWF. I was angry and bitter about it, so I really don't blame anyone who's angry about the gun, but eventually I learned to live with it.

I've seen fics that did the 'it was a body double dating the Immortal' thing.
Obviously I don't get around enough! ;)

Armed and armoured that advantage disappears.
Well she's always been armed! I'm not fond of the zapper, but it's unlikely to be a big recurring thing. And I doubt the SAS would be on top of that mountain - The Slayer deals with supernatural threats, not human.

Mostly, I guess we'll just have to wait and see!

(Oh and there's some icons here that you might like.)

For me, it's mostly finding out what they (Buffy specifically) were doing post-Chosen. We got some hints on AtS, but I'd like it to be fleshed out.

As for guns... I said this elsewhere, but the main thing about guns is that they don't kill demons. Not as effectively as a sword or axe or stake or crossbow. And they're pretty mcuh useless against vamps. Ergo, Buffy seldom uses guns. (Not sure a bazooka could be described as a 'gun'! *g*). But Buffy is also flexible, so if someone gives her a flaregun, she'll bring it along!

Well I love Andrew

I suppose someone has to.

I am immensely grateful that Joss won't be touching the perfect ending

Actually, I feel the same way about Chosen.

Not judging a book by its cover is a good point and I do keep reminding myself of that, but it just doesn't seem to be working. I'm one of the few who LIKED that Buffy was ostensibly happy in Rome and the Scoobies themselves could be out finding themselves instead of tripping all over each other. Changing it makes Andrew look like an absolute asshole, IMO. He had firsthand knowledge of Spike's affections and decided to play some sick joke? To me, it takes what was a strong moment in that episode and tosses it in the garbage. I don't know, this whole thing to me seems like a rehash of (vastly overrated, IMO) S3, with the Buffy wearing strange, unflattering clothing and the all-for-one schtick.

Most of my Buffy friends (online and not) were never into the comics even while the show was running, so just getting them to make the leap itself was going to be tough. But in all appearances they've changed alot of what the show was about and the medium doesn't really work well with what many people loved the show for. I guess it's true we'll have to wait and see, but my apprehension is very great.

Wow, that was longer and more depressing than expected. Sorry.

(Not sure a bazooka could be described as a 'gun'! *g*).

I wanted to write bazooka but was too lazy to look for the spelling. *blush* But the idea of bazooka is the same as gun. And whatever what Buffy is holding in the comic isn't really a gun... right? I'm not into that stuff. Thankfully, hee! But the idea of it is also like a gun.

But Buffy is also flexible, so if someone gives her a flaregun, she'll bring it along!

Yup! That's Buffy for me. She's take anything at hand and use it.

I didn't really like the outfit either - or the coloring. Buffy's not grey, or blue! But anyway, I hated the Immortal, and refused to watch TGIQ because of that. Now, I think I finally can.

I find it rather amusing to see the reactions people are having to S8 - I think it's a good decision to start promoting it now, so people have time to get used to the idea. Personally, having read other comics by Joss and spending a little time getting to know the art form, I think it's just as valid as TV (and, of course, there are those who think TV itself is a poor art form). As for Spuffy, I think the only irritating thing in the shipping realm is that most of the official things which have come out about Bangel vs Spuffy have been Bangel - which I think is both unfair and inaccurate to what happened in the show. Whatever Joss does will probably be fine - unless he has Buffy date a chaos demon. That would just be mean. To the chaos demon - not (I love Buffy, really, I do. I didn't hate her, not even in S6).

S8 will take place concurrently with S5 of AtS

Not sure about it. In TGIQ False!Buffy is The Immortal's "new ragazza". In comics's fuirst pages we find out that False!Buffy is already dating The Immortal. So the action in the comics starts in May, 2004, I suppose. (Of course, Joss may dismiss "new ragazza" mention as easily as he dismissed the rest stuff).

(Am I the only one who feels a definite Bander ending of the season 8?)

(Am I the only one who feels a definite Bander ending of the season 8?)

By Bander you mean Buffy/Xander? I hope not, I think Xander and Buffy have a more special relationship as brother/sister who play parents for Dawn. Don't worry, I doubt it'll end that way. :)

Heh. I love him too.

Me too. :)

(And your layout is beautiful ...mmm)

I meant Elizabeth' s new layout ;-)

Have you seen these samples?

I may be wrong but I've got the impression that the artist had been ordered to make Xander ship-worthy here. :)

But, seriously, what are Joss' options? With Spike and Angel being the property of IDW it's either Xander or a totally new character. And in the latter case he Joss won't have the audience investment. When writer deals with familiar characters there is the actor's momentum, so-to-speak: the audience may make the characters three-dimensional by imagining SMG's Buffy, JM's Spike, DB's Angel or NB's Xander. A new character will stay two-dimensional no matter how brilliantly Joss depicts him. The magic of real person playing him isn't there.

Besides, ending the show with Buffy\Xander ship was Joss' original intention from the get-go.

Buffy/Xander? Well to quote Wesley (speaking of another couple, of course, but the sentiment holds) :

"Well - that's a difficult question. I think it's fair to say - no. Not a chance, never, no way, not in a million years, and also 'nuh-uh.'"
Fredless

Sorry, but that ship never sailed. The most B/X ep is 'Beer Bad' for goodness sake! The point of Buffy right now is that she's baking - and it'll be Spike or Angel doing the eating (or in my head, both of them!). And since they're not going to show up - no smooches for the Buffster.

But Xander/Dawn... now *that* has possibilites! (Since Dawn wasn't even a twinkle in Joss' eye at the start of the series, I think he's probably changed his mind. Also ~~all~~ most of fandom would probably hate him if he went for B/X, as well as it making not one bit of sense, characterwise. Willow is more likely to admit being bi and hooking up with Xander. At least they've done the smooching thing!)

I read one where fake Buffy was dating the Immortal to cover the tracks of real Buffy who was pregnant with Spike's baby. *sigh* So yeah, pretty much explains why my reaction to Joss going the same route was a massive eyeroll.

Oh, dear. Those wrestling matches with oil. If it makes you happy, I suppose. I'm a Cangel, then a Nangel. Bangel is long gone. Period. Yup.

Ick - Dawn and Xander? Blech.

I think pairing Buffy with an original character could work just as well as Riley - or even better. It depends on how you view comics. If you view them as tertiary art, then no, it's not going to work as well. If you are willing to see them as equal but different to the show, then the ship will probably be able to stand on its own merits (as Riley did - though he eventually fell).

Darn, I'm rambly.

I may be wrong but I've got the impression that the artist had been ordered to make Xander ship-worthy here. :)

LOL!!!! I think he did a great job with Xander, the best out of the others. Even though he needs to work harder on the upper lip. NB has that unique upper lip shaped like a baby's. Buffy and Willow look recognizable but poor Dawn doesn't look like MT at all.

I've always thought that Nicholas Brendon has that Mexican/Spanish look. He looks similar to some Middle Eastern guys I've met. Very handsome. I've always been attracted to that type. Italian/Spanish/Mexican guys do it for me. That's why I was probably attracted to NB from the first sight.

Hopefully S8 will go with Buffy having no love interest, I really wanna see a Buffy without a boyfriend, at least for a season. But even if they had one in mind, I'm sure it's not Xander. Xander is the big brother, and he'll always be. Many fans love him in that role even the Bander fans, I guess. My wish though is for Xander and Buffy both to be single.

First off, your layout is GORGEOUS (esp. that banner!)

I generally agree with what everyone's saying about the comic. I don't think I'm going to go buy them, because I like the canon from the shows and not the supplemental stuff. Everything that I've seen about the comics doesn't really make me jump up and down...and I'm not really pleased that Joss just magicked away the whole Buffy's-dating-the-Immortal-in-Angel-s5 debacle. I don't think it was necessarily in character for Buffy (if it was in fact the REAL Buffy) to date him but I rationalize it to myself by saying she's either crazy from grief over Spike or that she's using him for his resources. I like living in this fantasy world.

I think if the comics ended up as B/X that would cheapen everything that the show worked towards. I can see that Xander is safe and comfortable, and has stood by her for so long unwaveringly (except that one time, and the times he hated Angel and Spike...) but I just can't see them together. If anyone, I agree with the person who said Xander/Dawn would get together. It seems like a lot of fic has Xander and Dawn getting together, and I can see that a lot easier than B/X.

Okay, now I'm rambling. I go now. =)

Heeeee! I really do see the comics as fanfic, but carrying a bit more weight since it's Joss. I think I'd like to find out what story he wants to tell, but if it doesn't go the way I like it's not going to upset me much, because hey - comic! It's just doesn't feel like 'proper' Buffy.

The most B/X ep is 'Beer Bad' for goodness sake!

I saw more tension in other eps. I think the most B/X ep is Phases, or at least that moment where he holds her and she gives him that look. I saw sparkles there. Also at the end of Inca The Mummy:

Buffy: I remember how I felt when I heard the prophecy that I was gonna
die. I wasn't exactly obsessed with doing the right thing.

Xander: Yeah, but you did. You gave up your life.

Buffy: I had you to bring me back.

They give each other thin smiles for a moment before continuing on.

There's also the sexy dance, which was, well, sexy. :)

The closest they got to it in S7 was the stares she and him shared in the kitchen during End of Days.

Anyway, I don't think it'll happen. I like them better as brother and sister who play father and mother to Dawn. Makes them far more special, I especially love the hand squeeze they gave each other in Chosen. If it was more than a brother/sister thing, it'll lose its special-ness.

Also most of fandom would probably hate him if he went for B/X, as well as it making not one bit of sense, characterwise.

I don't like the idea of Buffy and Xander together. I love it when a guy and girl become friends and be just that: friends. Angel and Cordy lost their appeal when they fell in love IMO. Xander and Buffy have a special relationship and it'll be ruined if they got together.

As for it not making sense... maybe right now. But if Joss wrote a good arc about it, I guess it'll make sense. Nothing's impossible in my book. Spuffy didn't make sense during S2, but then we had a great arc about Spike changing and devoting his unlife for Buffy... and eventually it made sense.

My wish though is for Xander and Buffy both to be single.

I agree. I had the same feelings as moscowwatcher when I first heard about the comics, but I kind of think Joss will keep all the Scoobs, save Willow, shipless in the comics, at least for the first 'season'. With his past dealings with rabid shippers, I think that's going to be a minefield he'll stay clear of this time around.

Or we can only hope. *shifts uneasily*

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