elisi | Day 5. Initial, scattered thoughts. (Everything except the final scene.)

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Day 5. Initial, scattered thoughts. (Everything except the final scene.)

So, was anyone else thinking ‘Schindler’s List’? As almost everything in this series the scenes where they took the children were so harrowing because they could be true. It’s happened. It could happen again.

And the reveal of what the 456 wanted the children for was truly a surprise. I’d seen a lot of speculation - they needed the children to breed, or maybe the children were really in charge and wanted to punish those who’d sent them away... I don’t think anyone saw the truth coming. I think my initial thought was ‘Bloody hell how many more messages can RTD cram into this?’, but hitting people over the head aside, I thought it was clever.

And Frobisher... damn, what a character. The whole ‘He was a good man’ scene was just incredible, and Bridget pwning the Prime Minister was excellent. The fact that the slime ball politician who was only out to cover his own ass will probably be replaced with the disturbingly pragmatic one (“What else are league tables for?”) was cynical, but *so* realistic. (Harriet Jones was truly something else. Oh Doctor, what did you do?) (Not that I’m blaming all this on him, of course, but I couldn’t help thinking it.) Also - Lois! I can like her (again) now when she won’t be taking Ianto’s place.

Oh and Johnson continued to be awesome. I have *such* a kink for highly efficient and competent people, and she with her black ops team just rocked my world. (Even when she was on the wrong side she was damn impressive. THANK YOU for not telling the good guys anything.)

Seriously the women have just kicked all kinds of ass, and I am so, so in awe.

Then the solution... I thought it’d probably be something with the children, and was sure that it would have something to do with Clem. I was also worried that somehow it’d involve Stephen, because why else introduce a child into Jack’s life? I still wasn’t really prepared... There’s so much there, about all the people willing to sacrifice other people’s children, but not their own. And does it make Jack more or less of a monster that he did what they couldn’t? Of course it all ties in with Jack (and heroes generally) always, always paying for their sins.

Thinking about this season, I think what RTD did was that he cannibalised his own show - he took Torchwood and used it to tell a story he wanted to tell. You can see the themes in this peering through in Doctor Who, but that *is* a family show, and it’s limited what you can do. Torchwood was always supposed to be the ‘adult’ version, and this time they finally used that to it’s maximum ability. In the process they destroyed the show as we knew it, and also nearly turned Jack into a complete Doctor clone. I’m not complaining btw - it’s just that Torchwood can show things Who never can. Such as the hero killing his own family to save the world. (I couldn’t watch that part. Fuck this show is dark. And still, we know that this is what the Doctor did too, only on a much bigger scale...)

I’ll get into this more in my post on the final scene, but for that I’m going to have to transcribe the whole thing, and I’m not sure when I’ll find the time. I’ll get there though.

Just wanted to say that I think I’m OK with Ianto’s death. I mean, of course I’m not OK - every time I think about him I get this horrible, empty feeling inside, and I might have to change my banner (like I changed my wallpaper) because I can’t bear to look at him. [don’t start crying I keep having to tell myself]

But.

He got a good death. A huge, enormous, overblown emotional send-off, in best Torchwood style, dying in Jack’s arms, and - hopefully - having managed to get a few home truths through before that, because he was one of the very few people that Jack actually listened to.

And yes, it KILLS me that it’s over, that my beautiful, beautiful messed-up 'ship is gone, but it is a little bit like Chosen. The show is over. The Hub is gone, EVERYTHING is gone... Jack/Ianto was just a moment of calm between the storms, but at least it was there. [Stopwatches make me want to cry now. What am I supposed to *do* now?]

Also he had to die for the sake of the ending. Ianto was probably the only thing in the world that could have kept Jack on Earth (“I came back for you”), so he had to be killed. It’s not something that makes me happy, but I understand it. Nothing left, clean sheet, new start.

By the way - the 'fic' that I posted last night is a letter from Ianto to Jack. I imagine Jack reading this at some point post S3.

::takes deep breath::

Will be back later, as I said, to deal with Jack in the last scene. But there’s a RL to attend to first.

ETA: My first thought to the reveal about Ianto's father? My god talk about jossing endless reams of fanfic...

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Yes - I think you have a problable theory there about Russel - it was a story on it's own ... horrific as it was, it need not have been Torchwood.

Still stunned.

Off to read the fic.

horrific as it was, it need not have been Torchwood.
That said, as

selenak points out here it was very much built around Jack, esp the final resolution.

And I'm still stunned too. Also, I need icons.

Drugs: no, I definitely didn't see it coming, but it makes perfect sense with the 456's behaviour!

Seriously the women have just kicked all kinds of ass, and I am so, so in awe.

Me too. Discounting Gwen as our regular, we got Rhiannon, Alice, Johnson, Lois, Bridget and Politician Lady, all of whom were vital to the plot, and none of whom, save for Lois' lie that got her into Thames House, ever talked with each other about romance. Bechdel Test for the win!

Schindler's List: yes, that, and that scene from Turn Left where Wilf says "it is happening again". You can tell the idea was definitely on RTD's mind.

Drugs: no, I definitely didn't see it coming, but it makes perfect sense with the 456's behaviour!
Indeed. And it just adds a whole other level of horrificness. (I've decided that that's a word!)

Bechdel Test for the win!
Absolutely! Also none of them ever undressed, or were treated as a sex objects. (Gwen and Lois both used their looks, but that's different.)

and that scene from Turn Left where Wilf says "it is happening again". You can tell the idea was definitely on RTD's mind.
Oh, good catch.

Forgot to say something your post brought to mind - the parallels between Jack having to make the choice between killing Stephen and letting the 456 take all the children on the one hand, and the Doctor ending the Time War via destroying Gallifrey along with the Daleks and every other Time Lord in existence (except for the Master). I think the difference in audience reaction is due to the very same element that made a lot of people go far easier on Spike than on Angel in terms of their pre-soul victim track record. We saw Angel's victims in gruesome detail, and some of them, like Jenny, were characters the audience was very familiar with and loved long before he killed her. Whereas with Spike, you get if I recall correctly Buffy's old pal from "Lie To Me" and the girl he hands over to Dru in "School Hard" in season 2, and Nikki and the Chinese Slayer in "Fool for Love", both of whom we only "meet" through the flashbacks, and then very, very briefly. We hear about others, but we don't see them on screen, which is one of the reasons why I wrote Five in One.

Similarly, what happened with Gallifrey is emotionally abstract to the audience because they didn't see it on screen. If they think about it, they have to realize that of course there weren't only adults on the planet, there were definitely children there, and given that the Doctor refers to "family" chances are that Susan was there, and wasn't the only blood-related person around. (BTW, the actress who plays Alice looks eerily like Carol Ann Ford, who played the Doctor's granddaughter Susan; not like Susan in her original stint on the show, as a teenager, but like Susan during her one later appearance, looking like mid-thirties adult in "The Five Doctors".) But the audience didn't see it (and thus is more prone to be impatience with the Doctor's guilt over what he did than anything else) in its gruesome horror, whereas with Steven's death, they did see the ghastly details.

So, was anyone else thinking ‘Schindler’s List’?

Yes! That bit where the soldiers bus off the children and their mothers are screaming from them...

And I loved that the 456 used the children for drugs because it was so cynical and gritty and fitted right in with the atmosphere - and the reveal that the government had been trying to be diplomatic with a junkie was just clever. No wonder there was no negotiation possible.

Oh, and you're right about the awesome numbers of awesome women - I hadn't actually picked up on that but it is fantastic.

(Hi - got pointed here by

gillo when I was bemoaning feeling lonely for thinking the finale was brilliant.)

Yes! That bit where the soldiers bus off the children and their mothers are screaming from them...
I think that's one of the worst scenes in the whole film - and here too.

And I loved that the 456 used the children for drugs because it was so cynical and gritty and fitted right in with the atmosphere - and the reveal that the government had been trying to be diplomatic with a junkie was just clever. No wonder there was no negotiation possible.
*nods* And it makes the whole thing so... pointless. *shivers*

And if you want someone who liked it more than me, check out

selenak's post. :)

I just finished watching the whole thing-- wow. Nothing like an early morning 5 hour marathon that rips out your heart to start your weekend!

I wonder if the miniseries is RTD's true artform? CoE was just light years better than either of the first two series of TW. Tightly plotted, compelling, and without the silly filler episodes about sex gas or space whales...

I do wonder where they're going to go from here. I was under the impression that the PTB have planned season 4? How??

ETA: My first thought to the reveal about Ianto's father?

I couldn't quite understand her accent there! What did I miss?

I just finished watching the whole thing-- wow. Nothing like an early morning 5 hour marathon that rips out your heart to start your weekend!
Wow. I admire your tenacity.

I wonder if the miniseries is RTD's true artform?
Could be. Also clearly the *story* was the main thing. I miss my show, the one with alien sex pollen and Cyberwimmins in high heals and emo spacewhales and untimely sex.

I do wonder where they're going to go from here. I was under the impression that the PTB have planned season 4? How??
No idea. But they seem to have killed the current version stone dead. Maybe Victorian Torchwood? Or the team from 1917? (I'd LOVE that. LOVE.)

I couldn't quite understand her accent there! What did I miss?
Apparently he worked in Debenhams, which is a very wellknown department store. Not a master tailor at all...

Could be. Also clearly the *story* was the main thing.

Yup; by having such a tightly plotted story, it all held together for me much better than usual. Torchwood's always been fun, but mostly in a "don't think about it too hard" kind of way. There were still holes in this (Why does Jack's hair always grow back cut like it did when he died? Why did PC Andy take off his kevlar vest before joining Ianto's bro-in-law and his neighbors fight against the police?) but mostly the story really worked. The characters had understandable (and believable) motivations and actions, and no one seemed out of character.

I think I probably liked it more than you did, but then while I love them all I don't really ship any of them. I'll miss Ianto, but then I miss Owen and Tosh. Stephen's death hit me much harder.

Apparently he worked in Debenhams, which is a very wellknown department store. Not a master tailor at all...

Lying about his dad makes me love Ianto that much more!

Lying about his dad makes me love Ianto that much more!
It explains a lot about his character, esp since the 'oddness' of his upbringing did strike me a few times I have to say. From the flashbacks in Fragments he didn't seem like the son of a tailor. Anyway, it's another reason I think he 'got' Jack so very well, the desire to lie about who they were.

Yup; by having such a tightly plotted story, it all held together for me much better than usual.
*nods*

Why does Jack's hair always grow back cut like it did when he died?
Ask the Doctor.

Why did PC Andy take off his kevlar vest before joining Ianto's bro-in-law and his neighbors fight against the police?
To distance himself from said police?

The characters had understandable (and believable) motivations and actions, and no one seemed out of character.
Which is why it hits that much harder...

I'll miss Ianto, but then I miss Owen and Tosh. Stephen's death hit me much harder.
Stephen's death was *horrible*, but he was very much a plot device. Ianto was *real*. Well, you know what I mean.

ETA: Thought you might like to know that I've already worked out a story in the Not The Last 'verse, about where Lucy and Alex are in all this... (Of course Ianto will survive in that one, since he'll be alive 20 years later. *clings to AU*)

Edited 2009-07-12 07:16 (UTC)

Ooh! Looking forward to seeing how Lucy and Alex do!

For now, let's just say that Lucy is less than impressed with the Doctor's unreachableness. Her coldness later doesn't come out of nowhere.

There’s so much there, about all the people willing to sacrifice other people’s children, but not their own. And does it make Jack more or less of a monster that he did what they couldn’t?

A thousand times, yes. Who among us could do it?

Well that is why I put the question there... Because we know we wouldn't be able to, and yet we despise the politicians who made sure that their children would be spared. (I have meta brewing btw)

Wow. I think I'm still stuck on your first post: Torchwood grew up.

I think this is probably the one and only time - at least in the Whoverse - where RTD hasn't backed down at the last minute but taken things (more or less) to their logical conclusion, actually based a lot of the fucked-upness of the ending on the flaws in s1 and s2 and I kind of love him for that even though I must say I have a few problems with some storylines... Dark, dirty, damn.

Wow. I think I'm still stuck on your first post: Torchwood grew up.
I think most of us are, really. It's like being hit by a truck or something - it takes a while to find your bearings.

I think this is probably the one and only time - at least in the Whoverse - where RTD hasn't backed down at the last minute but taken things (more or less) to their logical conclusion
*nods* I both love and hate him for that. But it took balls, and you gotta respect it.

Dark, dirty, damn.
Exactly. Actual, proper, adult sci-fi. I'm impressed, but I'm not sure I like it...

So, was anyone else thinking ‘Schindler’s List’? As almost everything in this series the scenes where they took the children were so harrowing because they could be true. It’s happened.
Had the exact same thought, in fact. This is actually something that Battlestar was massively good at. It was never quite an allegory of anything in particular, but it was endlessly evocative of so many things that it often felt more like invented history than science fiction.

And the reveal of what the 456 wanted the children for was truly a surprise.
I really wish I hadn't know this ahead of time.

And Frobisher... damn, what a character. The whole ‘He was a good man’ scene was just incredible
On reflection, he may end up being my favorite thing about this whole . . . thing. I was shocked at how painfully invested I ended up being in his story. A really excellent character.

The fact that the slime ball politician who was only out to cover his own ass will probably be replaced with the disturbingly pragmatic one (“What else are league tables for?”) was cynical, but *so* realistic.
The "league tables" woman . . . god, it's so rare that I actually hate a fictional character, but there was hardly a single thing to come out of her mouth that I didn't find grossly objectionable. I was in internal conniptions when no one challenged her lowest-performing 10% plan /still a teacher at heart

Seriously the women have just kicked all kinds of ass, and I am so, so in awe.
Promise me that you will watch Battlestar at some point because it is just like this . . . except more.

There’s so much there, about all the people willing to sacrifice other people’s children, but not their own. And does it make Jack more or less of a monster that he did what they couldn’t?
Soooo many layers to sort through there, but I think in the end for me it's going to come down to so much respect for Jack.

Had the exact same thought, in fact.
It's one of the worst scenes in Schindler's List, and one that keeps haunting me.

This is actually something that Battlestar was massively good at. It was never quite an allegory of anything in particular, but it was endlessly evocative of so many things that it often felt more like invented history than science fiction.
Everyone keeps saying good things about it. One day I'll have to watch it, promise. (If nothing else, then for the women!)

I really wish I hadn't know this ahead of time.
I can understand why. It was utterly shocking.

On reflection, he may end up being my favorite thing about this whole . . . thing. I was shocked at how painfully invested I ended up being in his story. A really excellent character.
And he spent most of the time talking to a glass wall. And sold every second of it.

The "league tables" woman . . . god, it's so rare that I actually hate a fictional character, but there was hardly a single thing to come out of her mouth that I didn't find grossly objectionable. I was in internal conniptions when no one challenged her lowest-performing 10% plan /still a teacher at heart
That meeting on Day 4 is, in many ways, the single worst thing in the whole show. Because this is how people think.

Soooo many layers to sort through there, but I think in the end for me it's going to come down to so much respect for Jack.
But in the end of it, after suffering ridiculous (and appalling, and the one thing I found utterly gratuitous throughout the whole thing) torture, after watching every single thing he held dear be destroyed right in front of his eyes, Jack still did the least morally bankrupt thing possible in the whole mess. (Read this.)

Everyone keeps saying good things about it. One day I'll have to watch it, promise. (If nothing else, then for the women!)
\o/ Ending aside, it really does deserve all the praise people can lavish on it.

That meeting on Day 4 is, in many ways, the single worst thing in the whole show. Because this is how people think.
I honestly thought at one point we were going to get a 30 minute scene out of that. And I think it would have been spectacular.

Jack still did the least morally bankrupt thing possible in the whole mess. (Read this.)
Yes. That. Thank you.

I've been going back and forth about how this thing ended because for something that was so obviously tragic and for which they drug the audience through so much, there was precious little catharsis to it. A part of me loves how utterly uncompromising that is and a part of me has to wonder if there isn't something . . . narratively irresponsible about it. It is a vicious place to leave an audience, with so much emotion dammed up like that. I think I have to be grateful that the show is going to have a fourth season because if they meant to end the show there, then it really did need to end in fire. And yet, could you really achieve that kind of catharsis with a central character like Jack who, as they went to such extreme lengths to prove here, must go on no matter what happens? If Jack can't burn out then the only other story you can tell is to heal him. Whether they will have the sense to tell that story, though, is another matter . . .

OTOH, with that ending, if I'm honest with myself, the other thing about Torchwood that I found consistently redemptive, besides the moments between the team, is the fact that Jack Harkness Does. Not. Flinch. He may suffer for it later, but in the moment Jack never flinches, and there is something deeply, magnificently satisfying about that every single time. With CoE, they really did finish off the team, so what are we left with? Jack Harkness, not flinching. And they probably gave him the most spectacular moment of not flinching anybody could write, and that is the only catharsis we get. I'm just not sure if it's enough.

A part of me loves how utterly uncompromising that is and a part of me has to wonder if there isn't something . . . narratively irresponsible about it. It is a vicious place to leave an audience, with so much emotion dammed up like that.
*nods a lot* It's been nearly two years and I'm still struggling to put words to it. And whilst it is absolutely amazing, I think the fans do have a point when they complain - because this was not necessarily the show they signed up for. Yes it was always bleak, but it was also full of crack, and the crack pretty much disappeared. I think the crack was needed in order to balance out all the darkness. (Like the zomg amazing 1918 Torchwood fic - they all find something to cling onto, in order to cope. At the end of CoE there's very little left. Gwen has Rhys, of course, but Jack has nothing.)

Although, from a writing POV, I was HUGELY grateful for that ending, because it meant that I could FINISH 'My Immortal' once and for all. I mean, I love that fic, but the idea of continuing to write it forever more as long as new TW canon came along was pretty draining. CoE gave me a clean cut.

And yet, could you really achieve that kind of catharsis with a central character like Jack who, as they went to such extreme lengths to prove here, must go on no matter what happens? If Jack can't burn out then the only other story you can tell is to heal him. Whether they will have the sense to tell that story, though, is another matter . . .
I think that the two year gap will work beautifully, partly because they can hint at a lot but not show it. Oh and that reminds me! (This has been bugging me for days!) Getting Jack to hook up with Alonso was a stroke of unadulterated genius. Whoever he 'moved on to' after Ianto would have instantly been hated by the hardcore shippers with the power of a billion suns, but with Alonso we didn't just get a character who is adorable and unthreatening, we also got a character who wasn't created solely to be the re-bound guy. Srsly. Genius.

the other thing about Torchwood that I found consistently redemptive, besides the moments between the team, is the fact that Jack Harkness Does. Not. Flinch. He may suffer for it later, but in the moment Jack never flinches, and there is something deeply, magnificently satisfying about that every single time. With CoE, they really did finish off the team, so what are we left with? Jack Harkness, not flinching
Mmmm. I'm reminded of this post (esp the last bit in the brackets).

Going back to 'My Immortal' this trait was actually one I loved exploring - beacuse Buffy is a proper hero, and she sees this unflinching trait in Jack and pulls away from it. They have a wonderful fling, but they both know it can never be anything more, because of their differences. Mmmm, loved writing that story... At one point they have an argument and Jack does not back down. He's perfectly polite, but he tells her quite bluntly that she can take it or leave it (the relationship, him), but he won't budge, and she's really not used to that. (I have a theory that Jack is like a non-newtonian fluid. I think Ianto understands this.)

And whilst it is absolutely amazing, I think the fans do have a point when they complain - because this was not necessarily the show they signed up for.
Come to think of it, I stopped watching DS9 when I did for much the same reasons. For about five seasons that show was like . . . well, Star Trek: idealistic, philosophical, funny, largely self-contained episodes, lots of emphasis on tolerance, compromises, intellectual solutions. Star Trek never really feels out of control. In the last two seasons it evolved into a much different show with long-running plot arcs about a big war--it became a lot grittier and darker and more uncompromising. The real architect behind the shift was Ronald D. More, who moved on to create BSG and essentially cut his teeth with what he did with DS9. The people who continued watching said it was really impressive, and it's not like I don't like that kind of storytelling (hello, BSG), but that was not the show I signed on to watch, and I found that I very quickly stopped caring. I still had Voyager, though, and shifted my attention over there, so it's not like I was left feeling abandoned or betrayed or attacked or anything like that. But, yeah, it wasn't like the change was bad, per se, it was just now an entirely different show.

Although, from a writing POV, I was HUGELY grateful for that ending, because it meant that I could FINISH 'My Immortal' once and for all. I mean, I love that fic, but the idea of continuing to write it forever more as long as new TW canon came along was pretty draining. CoE gave me a clean cut.
Ah, I did not know that was an ongoing continuity kind of story.

I think that the two year gap will work beautifully, partly because they can hint at a lot but not show it.
Probably a good move. The thing that worries me is, will they put him back together just so that they can break him again? I mean, yes, it's always going to be a dark show with angst and horror and bad, bad things, but when Jack comes back he needs to have grown, not just repaired, and if they break him again it needs to be different and he needs to grow from that in turn. I feel like they need to be very, very mindful of that kind of progression and of the angst serving some greater character purpose. It's hard to avoid the feeling with Jack that RTD has made himself the perfect toy that he can torment forever and he always has to keep going. Hopefully he and/or some of the other writers can keep him from reveling in that too much, or hitting the same notes over and over again.

Getting Jack to hook up with Alonso was a stroke of unadulterated genius. Whoever he 'moved on to' after Ianto would have instantly been hated by the hardcore shippers with the power of a billion suns, but with Alonso we didn't just get a character who is adorable and unthreatening, we also got a character who wasn't created solely to be the re-bound guy. Srsly. Genius.
Heh. That is impressive :) I shall be interested to see reactions to whoever he hooks up with in the new series. (Also, I find RTD's totally unapologetic Midshipman Frame crush--from, seriously, the moment he first conceived the character--one of the cutest things in The Writer's Tale.)

Come to think of it, I stopped watching DS9 when I did for much the same reasons.
It's an interesting thing - as I've mentioned, the same thing happened with Buffy. (Not as drastic a shift, but there were a lot of people who never adjusted to the change.)

Ah, I did not know that was an ongoing continuity kind of story.
Well it is and it isn't. The original fic is mostly set in 2004 and is all Buffy/Jack (Buffy moved to Rome and dated a mysterious figure known only as 'The Immortal' and who's such a perfect fit for Jack that you'd have sworn it was deliberate. Except it can't have been). Anyway, 'tis all rather epic, with lots of clever stuff to make the canons fit together, and of course people wanted a sequel. And me being me I couldn't help wonder what would happen if they met again (there's a whole 'The Year That Never Was' fic, but that mostly centered on the Master) - and then lots of ideas showed up. However it started to become a bit tenuous, and CoE - with Jack leaving meant that I could finish off properly and have people (hopefully) accept it as the final end.

The thing that worries me is, will they put him back together just so that they can break him again? I mean, yes, it's always going to be a dark show with angst and horror and bad, bad things, but when Jack comes back he needs to have grown, not just repaired, and if they break him again it needs to be different and he needs to grow from that in turn. I feel like they need to be very, very mindful of that kind of progression and of the angst serving some greater character purpose.
*nods a LOT* I've not got much to add, but there is the fact that unless they kill Gwen - or invent more family for him - there's not a lot of ways to hurt him. So I live in hope.

Heh. That is impressive :)
Isn't it just? I'm still SO PLEASED!

Also, I find RTD's totally unapologetic Midshipman Frame crush--from, seriously, the moment he first conceived the character--one of the cutest things in The Writer's Tale.
The actor who plays him is now George the werewolf on Being Human and continues to be adorable and brilliant every week on my TV! *hugs him*

Anyway, 'tis all rather epic, with lots of clever stuff to make the canons fit together, and of course people wanted a sequel.
Lol--good for you :)

However it started to become a bit tenuous, and CoE - with Jack leaving meant that I could finish off properly and have people (hopefully) accept it as the final end.
What would you have done if RTD hadn't come to your rescue? This is where a callous indifference to the demands of the readership does come in handy, I must say.

I've not got much to add, but there is the fact that unless they kill Gwen - or invent more family for him - there's not a lot of ways to hurt him. So I live in hope.
*shifty eyes* Don't say that too loud!

What would you have done if RTD hadn't come to your rescue? This is where a callous indifference to the demands of the readership does come in handy, I must say.
I've no idea what I'd have done, to be honest. It would have depended on the storylines and how they'd have worked with Buffy. The thing is that the sequelly bits aren't a re-write of canon in any way, with Buffy added - everything takes place inbetween episodes, and is partly bringing Buffy into the world of Torchwood (which he keeps a secret from her in the original story), and partly dealing with fallout from stuff in canon, and stuff I set up previously. So f.ex. 'Miracle Day' will undoubtedly be a lovely addition to canon, but it won't have any effect on my 'verse as such. (Does this make any kind of sense?)

*shifty eyes* Don't say that too loud!
I had all of my fingers and toes crossed and I didn't mean it anyway.

Mmmm. I'm reminded of this post (esp the last bit in the brackets).
Yes, that. And, actually, I think that bit in "Adam" is my favorite example of Jack Harkness Not Flinching. The moment when he stares straight into Adam's eyes and chomps down on that pill, my exact thoughts were that is the single most badass thing I have ever seen. It's a good moment, I think, because most of Jack's moments of not flinching do involve some sort of moral compromise, and if that was all we ever got to see, it would be easy to see him as just a monster. But the thing with Adam and his memories, that is a purely personal price and a horrible one at that. And he is a rock in that moment. Oh, it's fantastic. It's horrible and it's punch the air at the same time. Love it, love it, love it.

(I have a theory that Jack is like a non-newtonian fluid. I think Ianto understands this.)
Oooo. . . perfect analogy :) Yeah, it takes a bit of judo stealth to move him, slipping in subtly from the side, which would seem to be Ianto's forte. Gwen's probably the only person who ever manages to change his mind with a direct assault, and that's only in very specific things.

And, actually, I think that bit in "Adam" is my favorite example of Jack Harkness Not Flinching. The moment when he stares straight into Adam's eyes and chomps down on that pill, my exact thoughts were that is the single most badass thing I have ever seen.
Oh yes. It's one of the things I love most about Jack, and one of the things that makes him so interesting to write. (My Immortal is a novel-length exploration of him and Buffy...)

And he is a rock in that moment. Oh, it's fantastic. It's horrible and it's punch the air at the same time. Love it, love it, love it.
Can I say again how happy I am that you watched my show? Moments like that are just priceless! ♥

Oooo. . . perfect analogy :) Yeah, it takes a bit of judo stealth to move him, slipping in subtly from the side, which would seem to be Ianto's forte.
Their talk in 'To The Last Man' is a wonderful example of this - because Ianto prompts a little, but he doesn't ask direct questions. And again - when he does ask directly, they've built so much trust that Jack answers truthfully.

Gwen's probably the only person who ever manages to change his mind with a direct assault, and that's only in very specific things.
*nods* F.ex. at the end of Cyberwoman she starts asking about Ianto and Jack quite simply changes the subject. I think it's more cases where she disobeys him? Hmmm.

Can I say again how happy I am that you watched my show?
Hee. You can ;-)

Their talk in 'To The Last Man' is a wonderful example of this - because Ianto prompts a little, but he doesn't ask direct questions. And again - when he does ask directly, they've built so much trust that Jack answers truthfully.
Haven't watched enough to remember that specific talk, but I think I know the kind of thing you mean. Jack's secrecy . . . man, it's like a wall. The kind of wall they build across demilitarized zones. Good on Ianto for learning to get around it.

*nods* F.ex. at the end of Cyberwoman she starts asking about Ianto and Jack quite simply changes the subject. I think it's more cases where she disobeys him? Hmmm.
This is true. I think when she gets all the way to disobeying him that it really is about Torchwood and how they operate (rather than just wanting to know something personal about Jack) and something she is very, very sure about. And if Gwen is that sure about something, it probably is something where Jack realizes he should trust her judgment above his.

Haven't watched enough to remember that specific talk, but I think I know the kind of thing you mean.
It's the bit I've got on my sidebar. :) (Well I've only got a snippet, but that's the conversation it's from.)

Jack's secrecy . . . man, it's like a wall. The kind of wall they build across demilitarized zones. Good on Ianto for learning to get around it.
You know, I think what Ianto does is just sit patiently on the other side of the wall and wait for Jack to come to him.

ETA: Actually, having let my mind work on this a while, I've realised (or remembered) that Ianto is quite the wallbuilder himself. First of all, he leaves home and cuts his family out of his life almost completely. Secondly, he lies himself into Torchwood. He cons the conman. And although Jack is clearly livid, I think he also has a lot of respect (both personal and professional) for someone capable of that kind of deception. Paradoxically it means that Ianto is one of the people he puts the most trust in (see Flatholm), because he knows that Ianto can keep secrets. Thirdly, Ianto keeps lying about himself. One of the most devastating moments of CoE is Gwen trying to comfort his sister, saying how good friends they were and how Ianto used to talk about his dad, the master tailor - and Rhiannon yells back that their dad worked in Debenhams (a department store): "You didn't know him at all!"

All of which brings me to my point, which is that when it comes to Ianto, there's a give and take when it comes to telling the truth and dismantling walls - they're a lot more equal than, say, Gwen and Jack.

And if Gwen is that sure about something, it probably is something where Jack realizes he should trust her judgment above his.
*nods* From The Captain's Blog (with added Janto bit because it makes me MELT):

Staff: Gwen would never have found the facility if Ianto hadn’t helped her. He was wrong to do that. But, of course, he was actually right in the end. There’s no way Gwen would have let it go. I should have trusted her with the information, but I knew what it would do to her. Sometimes, the only way to realise that you shouldn’t look behind that door is to actually go and look. Gwen learned that. Nikki learned that. We all did.

Other Staff issues: Seeing Gwen experience it for the first time took me right back to when I first heard that terrible scream. After Gwen had gone home, I just held on to Ianto for a couple of hours, as tightly as I could.

Edited 2011-02-28 16:25 (UTC)

It's the bit I've got on my sidebar. :) (Well I've only got a snippet, but that's the conversation it's from.)
Ah, yes, that one.

Actually, having let my mind work on this a while, I've realised (or remembered) that Ianto is quite the wallbuilder himself.
*smacks self on forehead* That was pretty much Ianto for the whole of season one, wasn't it? Wall.

Secondly, he lies himself into Torchwood. He cons the conman. And although Jack is clearly livid, I think he also has a lot of respect (both personal and professional) for someone capable of that kind of deception.
Heh. Makes sense to me.

Rhiannon yells back that their dad worked in Debenhams (a department store): "You didn't know him at all!"
That was one of the few things in CoE that came as a genuine shock for me (since so much else was spoiled). It was like "wow, the poor guy died and you still managed to keep messing with him."

All of which brings me to my point, which is that when it comes to Ianto, there's a give and take when it comes to telling the truth and dismantling walls - they're a lot more equal than, say, Gwen and Jack.
Come to think of it, this is how Barney/Robin worked (or should have worked) on HIMYM--albeit with much more cheerful walls. Unfortunately the writers bungled the execution, but when they worked it was because they both recognized each other's defense mechanisms and could let each other continue to have them while being ready to support each other when they slipped. They were both majorly screwed up, of course.

(with added Janto bit because it makes me MELT)
Lol--sometimes I wondered with Jack's log who it was meant for or might read it (in the fictional context). It occasionally seemed to cross a line from the professionally relevant over into the strictly personal. But I suppose that's enough of a justification right there.

Gwen would never have found the facility if Ianto hadn’t helped her. He was wrong to do that. But, of course, he was actually right in the end. There’s no way Gwen would have let it go. I should have trusted her with the information, but I knew what it would do to her.
That's really why I love that episode right there--all those motivations.

*smacks self on forehead* That was pretty much Ianto for the whole of season one, wasn't it? Wall.
A wall in a fancy suit. (And the suit is as much of a defense/armour/uniform as Jack's WW2 outfit.)

That was one of the few things in CoE that came as a genuine shock for me (since so much else was spoiled). It was like "wow, the poor guy died and you still managed to keep messing with him."
M-hm. Although it made so much more sense that he came from a poor background (he and Rose, interestingly, being the only proper working class main characters). Oh, and you reminded me that I have a fic that I never finished where Jack goes to visit Ianto's family. Maybe I should take another look at that...

Unfortunately the writers bungled the execution, but when they worked it was because they both recognized each other's defense mechanisms and could let each other continue to have them while being ready to support each other when they slipped. They were both majorly screwed up, of course.
Of course! And I'm sorry that they got screwed by the writers, but that happens way too often. :(

Lol--sometimes I wondered with Jack's log who it was meant for or might read it (in the fictional context).
I always saw it as very private - notes for himself. (Since he'd be at Torchwood for the forseeable future...)

That's really why I love that episode right there--all those motivations.
As it happens,

solitary_summer just wrote about it!

But the thing with Adam and his memories, that is a purely personal price and a horrible one at that. And he is a rock in that moment. Oh, it's fantastic. It's horrible and it's punch the air at the same time. Love it, love it, love it.
You know, River in The Big Bang goes through something very similar - of course it's not about her, and it's not her call, but she knows that the Doctor sealing the cracks will mean losing all memories of him, and yet she never for a second gives in to self pity. She knows that the fate of the universe is more important than the man she loves. (Just to parallel her with Rory for a second.)

I always fall for the grown up characters...

Oh, the memory thing--nice! I know you'd wanted me to watch Adam for the parallels.

Actually, what impresses me with River and shows that she is really very mature is that she can talk about it. I mean, yes, absolutely, letting the Doctor go is an entirely laudable show of strength and self-possession. But at the same time, "what I want isn't important here" is instinct, it's the default option, it feels right and there's something steadying and strengthening just in taking it. What's really impressive is that she's able to be sad in that moment and acknowledge the sacrifice of it (same goes for a lot of what happens in the Library episodes). Compare it with the way Jack always shuts down to get through things.

With Jack, though, a lot of it comes down to his immortality. In 'The Doctor Dances' he orders himself a drink when he realises he's about to die:

JACK
Oo, a little too much vermouth. See if I come here again!
(laughs)
Funny thing... last time I was sentenced to death, I ordered four hyper-vodkas for my breakfast. All a bit of a blur after that. Woke up in bed with BOTH my executioners. Hmm, lovely couple. They stayed in touch!
(ponders this)
Can't say that about most executioners.
(laughs again)
Anyway. Thanks for everything, computer. It's been great.

Plus, in PotW:

DALEK #1
Exterminate!
(They raise their guns.)
JACK
I kinda figured that.
(And he opens his arms and lifts his chin.)

There is an almost casual acceptance of death - a 'fair enough, I was playing with matches, 'course I'll get burned.' Plus, knowing what he's lost already by that point, it's easy to see how he came by that attitude. Immortal!Jack, however, knows that he'll never find respite, that it'll never be over, so I think he shuts down in order to keep his sanity - and in the process loses the peace that he once had (and that River draws strength from).

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Day 5. Initial, scattered thoughts. (Everything except the final scene.)

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In which I make a Spike and Angel comparison just for you

Re: In which I make a Spike and Angel comparison just for you

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