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Day 5. Initial, scattered thoughts. (Everything except the final scene.)
So, was anyone else thinking ‘Schindler’s List’? As almost everything in this series the scenes where they took the children were so harrowing because they could be true. It’s happened. It could happen again.
And the reveal of what the 456 wanted the children for was truly a surprise. I’d seen a lot of speculation - they needed the children to breed, or maybe the children were really in charge and wanted to punish those who’d sent them away... I don’t think anyone saw the truth coming. I think my initial thought was ‘Bloody hell how many more messages can RTD cram into this?’, but hitting people over the head aside, I thought it was clever.
And Frobisher... damn, what a character. The whole ‘He was a good man’ scene was just incredible, and Bridget pwning the Prime Minister was excellent. The fact that the slime ball politician who was only out to cover his own ass will probably be replaced with the disturbingly pragmatic one (“What else are league tables for?”) was cynical, but *so* realistic. (Harriet Jones was truly something else. Oh Doctor, what did you do?) (Not that I’m blaming all this on him, of course, but I couldn’t help thinking it.) Also - Lois! I can like her (again) now when she won’t be taking Ianto’s place.
Oh and Johnson continued to be awesome. I have *such* a kink for highly efficient and competent people, and she with her black ops team just rocked my world. (Even when she was on the wrong side she was damn impressive. THANK YOU for not telling the good guys anything.)
Seriously the women have just kicked all kinds of ass, and I am so, so in awe.
Then the solution... I thought it’d probably be something with the children, and was sure that it would have something to do with Clem. I was also worried that somehow it’d involve Stephen, because why else introduce a child into Jack’s life? I still wasn’t really prepared... There’s so much there, about all the people willing to sacrifice other people’s children, but not their own. And does it make Jack more or less of a monster that he did what they couldn’t? Of course it all ties in with Jack (and heroes generally) always, always paying for their sins.
Thinking about this season, I think what RTD did was that he cannibalised his own show - he took Torchwood and used it to tell a story he wanted to tell. You can see the themes in this peering through in Doctor Who, but that *is* a family show, and it’s limited what you can do. Torchwood was always supposed to be the ‘adult’ version, and this time they finally used that to it’s maximum ability. In the process they destroyed the show as we knew it, and also nearly turned Jack into a complete Doctor clone. I’m not complaining btw - it’s just that Torchwood can show things Who never can. Such as the hero killing his own family to save the world. (I couldn’t watch that part. Fuck this show is dark. And still, we know that this is what the Doctor did too, only on a much bigger scale...)
I’ll get into this more in my post on the final scene, but for that I’m going to have to transcribe the whole thing, and I’m not sure when I’ll find the time. I’ll get there though.
Just wanted to say that I think I’m OK with Ianto’s death. I mean, of course I’m not OK - every time I think about him I get this horrible, empty feeling inside, and I might have to change my banner (like I changed my wallpaper) because I can’t bear to look at him. [don’t start crying I keep having to tell myself]
But.
He got a good death. A huge, enormous, overblown emotional send-off, in best Torchwood style, dying in Jack’s arms, and - hopefully - having managed to get a few home truths through before that, because he was one of the very few people that Jack actually listened to.
And yes, it KILLS me that it’s over, that my beautiful, beautiful messed-up 'ship is gone, but it is a little bit like Chosen. The show is over. The Hub is gone, EVERYTHING is gone... Jack/Ianto was just a moment of calm between the storms, but at least it was there. [Stopwatches make me want to cry now. What am I supposed to *do* now?]
Also he had to die for the sake of the ending. Ianto was probably the only thing in the world that could have kept Jack on Earth (“I came back for you”), so he had to be killed. It’s not something that makes me happy, but I understand it. Nothing left, clean sheet, new start.
By the way - the 'fic' that I posted last night is a letter from Ianto to Jack. I imagine Jack reading this at some point post S3.
::takes deep breath::
Will be back later, as I said, to deal with Jack in the last scene. But there’s a RL to attend to first.
ETA: My first thought to the reveal about Ianto's father? My god talk about jossing endless reams of fanfic...
And the reveal of what the 456 wanted the children for was truly a surprise. I’d seen a lot of speculation - they needed the children to breed, or maybe the children were really in charge and wanted to punish those who’d sent them away... I don’t think anyone saw the truth coming. I think my initial thought was ‘Bloody hell how many more messages can RTD cram into this?’, but hitting people over the head aside, I thought it was clever.
And Frobisher... damn, what a character. The whole ‘He was a good man’ scene was just incredible, and Bridget pwning the Prime Minister was excellent. The fact that the slime ball politician who was only out to cover his own ass will probably be replaced with the disturbingly pragmatic one (“What else are league tables for?”) was cynical, but *so* realistic. (Harriet Jones was truly something else. Oh Doctor, what did you do?) (Not that I’m blaming all this on him, of course, but I couldn’t help thinking it.) Also - Lois! I can like her (again) now when she won’t be taking Ianto’s place.
Oh and Johnson continued to be awesome. I have *such* a kink for highly efficient and competent people, and she with her black ops team just rocked my world. (Even when she was on the wrong side she was damn impressive. THANK YOU for not telling the good guys anything.)
Seriously the women have just kicked all kinds of ass, and I am so, so in awe.
Then the solution... I thought it’d probably be something with the children, and was sure that it would have something to do with Clem. I was also worried that somehow it’d involve Stephen, because why else introduce a child into Jack’s life? I still wasn’t really prepared... There’s so much there, about all the people willing to sacrifice other people’s children, but not their own. And does it make Jack more or less of a monster that he did what they couldn’t? Of course it all ties in with Jack (and heroes generally) always, always paying for their sins.
Thinking about this season, I think what RTD did was that he cannibalised his own show - he took Torchwood and used it to tell a story he wanted to tell. You can see the themes in this peering through in Doctor Who, but that *is* a family show, and it’s limited what you can do. Torchwood was always supposed to be the ‘adult’ version, and this time they finally used that to it’s maximum ability. In the process they destroyed the show as we knew it, and also nearly turned Jack into a complete Doctor clone. I’m not complaining btw - it’s just that Torchwood can show things Who never can. Such as the hero killing his own family to save the world. (I couldn’t watch that part. Fuck this show is dark. And still, we know that this is what the Doctor did too, only on a much bigger scale...)
I’ll get into this more in my post on the final scene, but for that I’m going to have to transcribe the whole thing, and I’m not sure when I’ll find the time. I’ll get there though.
Just wanted to say that I think I’m OK with Ianto’s death. I mean, of course I’m not OK - every time I think about him I get this horrible, empty feeling inside, and I might have to change my banner (like I changed my wallpaper) because I can’t bear to look at him. [don’t start crying I keep having to tell myself]
But.
He got a good death. A huge, enormous, overblown emotional send-off, in best Torchwood style, dying in Jack’s arms, and - hopefully - having managed to get a few home truths through before that, because he was one of the very few people that Jack actually listened to.
And yes, it KILLS me that it’s over, that my beautiful, beautiful messed-up 'ship is gone, but it is a little bit like Chosen. The show is over. The Hub is gone, EVERYTHING is gone... Jack/Ianto was just a moment of calm between the storms, but at least it was there. [Stopwatches make me want to cry now. What am I supposed to *do* now?]
Also he had to die for the sake of the ending. Ianto was probably the only thing in the world that could have kept Jack on Earth (“I came back for you”), so he had to be killed. It’s not something that makes me happy, but I understand it. Nothing left, clean sheet, new start.
By the way - the 'fic' that I posted last night is a letter from Ianto to Jack. I imagine Jack reading this at some point post S3.
::takes deep breath::
Will be back later, as I said, to deal with Jack in the last scene. But there’s a RL to attend to first.
ETA: My first thought to the reveal about Ianto's father? My god talk about jossing endless reams of fanfic...
no subject
Seriously the women have just kicked all kinds of ass, and I am so, so in awe.
Me too. Discounting Gwen as our regular, we got Rhiannon, Alice, Johnson, Lois, Bridget and Politician Lady, all of whom were vital to the plot, and none of whom, save for Lois' lie that got her into Thames House, ever talked with each other about romance. Bechdel Test for the win!
Schindler's List: yes, that, and that scene from Turn Left where Wilf says "it is happening again". You can tell the idea was definitely on RTD's mind.
no subject
Indeed. And it just adds a whole other level of horrificness. (I've decided that that's a word!)
Bechdel Test for the win!
Absolutely! Also none of them ever undressed, or were treated as a sex objects. (Gwen and Lois both used their looks, but that's different.)
and that scene from Turn Left where Wilf says "it is happening again". You can tell the idea was definitely on RTD's mind.
Oh, good catch.
In which I make a Spike and Angel comparison just for you
Similarly, what happened with Gallifrey is emotionally abstract to the audience because they didn't see it on screen. If they think about it, they have to realize that of course there weren't only adults on the planet, there were definitely children there, and given that the Doctor refers to "family" chances are that Susan was there, and wasn't the only blood-related person around. (BTW, the actress who plays Alice looks eerily like Carol Ann Ford, who played the Doctor's granddaughter Susan; not like Susan in her original stint on the show, as a teenager, but like Susan during her one later appearance, looking like mid-thirties adult in "The Five Doctors".) But the audience didn't see it (and thus is more prone to be impatience with the Doctor's guilt over what he did than anything else) in its gruesome horror, whereas with Steven's death, they did see the ghastly details.
Re: In which I make a Spike and Angel comparison just for you
You know, I've been thinking about this too (there will be another post!), and actually pointed it out to someone else (someone who can't get over what Jack did to Alice - which makes for a harrowing dilemma: Would it have been easier if he'd had to kill both of them?). Also quoted this:
DR CONSTANTINE: "Before this war began, I was a father and a grandfather. Now I am neither. But I am still a doctor."
THE DOCTOR: "Yeah. Know the feeling."
But the audience didn't see it (and thus is more prone to be impatience with the Doctor's guilt over what he did than anything else) in its gruesome horror, whereas with Steven's death, they did see the ghastly details.
Yes, exactly. I love TW for having the guts to show it, no matter how horrific.
As for Spike and Angel... Hm. Yes and no. I think Angel generally gets off easier, because people divide him up into 'Angel' and 'Angelus', and Angel gets a free pass as it were, which Spike doesn't. (See the AR.) But in theory I agree. :)