Day 5. Initial, scattered thoughts. (Everything except the final scene.)

[elisi]

So, was anyone else thinking ‘Schindler’s List’? As almost everything in this series the scenes where they took the children were so harrowing because they could be true. It’s happened. It could happen again.

And the reveal of what the 456 wanted the children for was truly a surprise. I’d seen a lot of speculation - they needed the children to breed, or maybe the children were really in charge and wanted to punish those who’d sent them away... I don’t think anyone saw the truth coming. I think my initial thought was ‘Bloody hell how many more messages can RTD cram into this?’, but hitting people over the head aside, I thought it was clever.

And Frobisher... damn, what a character. The whole ‘He was a good man’ scene was just incredible, and Bridget pwning the Prime Minister was excellent. The fact that the slime ball politician who was only out to cover his own ass will probably be replaced with the disturbingly pragmatic one (“What else are league tables for?”) was cynical, but *so* realistic. (Harriet Jones was truly something else. Oh Doctor, what did you do?) (Not that I’m blaming all this on him, of course, but I couldn’t help thinking it.) Also - Lois! I can like her (again) now when she won’t be taking Ianto’s place.

Oh and Johnson continued to be awesome. I have *such* a kink for highly efficient and competent people, and she with her black ops team just rocked my world. (Even when she was on the wrong side she was damn impressive. THANK YOU for not telling the good guys anything.)

Seriously the women have just kicked all kinds of ass, and I am so, so in awe.

Then the solution... I thought it’d probably be something with the children, and was sure that it would have something to do with Clem. I was also worried that somehow it’d involve Stephen, because why else introduce a child into Jack’s life? I still wasn’t really prepared... There’s so much there, about all the people willing to sacrifice other people’s children, but not their own. And does it make Jack more or less of a monster that he did what they couldn’t? Of course it all ties in with Jack (and heroes generally) always, always paying for their sins.

Thinking about this season, I think what RTD did was that he cannibalised his own show - he took Torchwood and used it to tell a story he wanted to tell. You can see the themes in this peering through in Doctor Who, but that *is* a family show, and it’s limited what you can do. Torchwood was always supposed to be the ‘adult’ version, and this time they finally used that to it’s maximum ability. In the process they destroyed the show as we knew it, and also nearly turned Jack into a complete Doctor clone. I’m not complaining btw - it’s just that Torchwood can show things Who never can. Such as the hero killing his own family to save the world. (I couldn’t watch that part. Fuck this show is dark. And still, we know that this is what the Doctor did too, only on a much bigger scale...)

I’ll get into this more in my post on the final scene, but for that I’m going to have to transcribe the whole thing, and I’m not sure when I’ll find the time. I’ll get there though.

Just wanted to say that I think I’m OK with Ianto’s death. I mean, of course I’m not OK - every time I think about him I get this horrible, empty feeling inside, and I might have to change my banner (like I changed my wallpaper) because I can’t bear to look at him. [don’t start crying I keep having to tell myself]

But.

He got a good death. A huge, enormous, overblown emotional send-off, in best Torchwood style, dying in Jack’s arms, and - hopefully - having managed to get a few home truths through before that, because he was one of the very few people that Jack actually listened to.

And yes, it KILLS me that it’s over, that my beautiful, beautiful messed-up 'ship is gone, but it is a little bit like Chosen. The show is over. The Hub is gone, EVERYTHING is gone... Jack/Ianto was just a moment of calm between the storms, but at least it was there. [Stopwatches make me want to cry now. What am I supposed to *do* now?]

Also he had to die for the sake of the ending. Ianto was probably the only thing in the world that could have kept Jack on Earth (“I came back for you”), so he had to be killed. It’s not something that makes me happy, but I understand it. Nothing left, clean sheet, new start.

By the way - the 'fic' that I posted last night is a letter from Ianto to Jack. I imagine Jack reading this at some point post S3.

::takes deep breath::

Will be back later, as I said, to deal with Jack in the last scene. But there’s a RL to attend to first.

ETA: My first thought to the reveal about Ianto's father? My god talk about jossing endless reams of fanfic...

Comments

[elisi]

And, actually, I think that bit in "Adam" is my favorite example of Jack Harkness Not Flinching. The moment when he stares straight into Adam's eyes and chomps down on that pill, my exact thoughts were that is the single most badass thing I have ever seen.
Oh yes. It's one of the things I love most about Jack, and one of the things that makes him so interesting to write. (My Immortal is a novel-length exploration of him and Buffy...)

And he is a rock in that moment. Oh, it's fantastic. It's horrible and it's punch the air at the same time. Love it, love it, love it.
Can I say again how happy I am that you watched my show? Moments like that are just priceless! ♥

Oooo. . . perfect analogy :) Yeah, it takes a bit of judo stealth to move him, slipping in subtly from the side, which would seem to be Ianto's forte.
Their talk in 'To The Last Man' is a wonderful example of this - because Ianto prompts a little, but he doesn't ask direct questions. And again - when he does ask directly, they've built so much trust that Jack answers truthfully.

Gwen's probably the only person who ever manages to change his mind with a direct assault, and that's only in very specific things.
*nods* F.ex. at the end of Cyberwoman she starts asking about Ianto and Jack quite simply changes the subject. I think it's more cases where she disobeys him? Hmmm.

[promethia_tenk]

Can I say again how happy I am that you watched my show?
Hee. You can ;-)

Their talk in 'To The Last Man' is a wonderful example of this - because Ianto prompts a little, but he doesn't ask direct questions. And again - when he does ask directly, they've built so much trust that Jack answers truthfully.
Haven't watched enough to remember that specific talk, but I think I know the kind of thing you mean. Jack's secrecy . . . man, it's like a wall. The kind of wall they build across demilitarized zones. Good on Ianto for learning to get around it.

*nods* F.ex. at the end of Cyberwoman she starts asking about Ianto and Jack quite simply changes the subject. I think it's more cases where she disobeys him? Hmmm.
This is true. I think when she gets all the way to disobeying him that it really is about Torchwood and how they operate (rather than just wanting to know something personal about Jack) and something she is very, very sure about. And if Gwen is that sure about something, it probably is something where Jack realizes he should trust her judgment above his.

[elisi]

Haven't watched enough to remember that specific talk, but I think I know the kind of thing you mean.
It's the bit I've got on my sidebar. :) (Well I've only got a snippet, but that's the conversation it's from.)

Jack's secrecy . . . man, it's like a wall. The kind of wall they build across demilitarized zones. Good on Ianto for learning to get around it.
You know, I think what Ianto does is just sit patiently on the other side of the wall and wait for Jack to come to him.

ETA: Actually, having let my mind work on this a while, I've realised (or remembered) that Ianto is quite the wallbuilder himself. First of all, he leaves home and cuts his family out of his life almost completely. Secondly, he lies himself into Torchwood. He cons the conman. And although Jack is clearly livid, I think he also has a lot of respect (both personal and professional) for someone capable of that kind of deception. Paradoxically it means that Ianto is one of the people he puts the most trust in (see Flatholm), because he knows that Ianto can keep secrets. Thirdly, Ianto keeps lying about himself. One of the most devastating moments of CoE is Gwen trying to comfort his sister, saying how good friends they were and how Ianto used to talk about his dad, the master tailor - and Rhiannon yells back that their dad worked in Debenhams (a department store): "You didn't know him at all!"

All of which brings me to my point, which is that when it comes to Ianto, there's a give and take when it comes to telling the truth and dismantling walls - they're a lot more equal than, say, Gwen and Jack.

And if Gwen is that sure about something, it probably is something where Jack realizes he should trust her judgment above his.
*nods* From The Captain's Blog (with added Janto bit because it makes me MELT):

Staff: Gwen would never have found the facility if Ianto hadn’t helped her. He was wrong to do that. But, of course, he was actually right in the end. There’s no way Gwen would have let it go. I should have trusted her with the information, but I knew what it would do to her. Sometimes, the only way to realise that you shouldn’t look behind that door is to actually go and look. Gwen learned that. Nikki learned that. We all did.

Other Staff issues: Seeing Gwen experience it for the first time took me right back to when I first heard that terrible scream. After Gwen had gone home, I just held on to Ianto for a couple of hours, as tightly as I could.

[promethia_tenk]

It's the bit I've got on my sidebar. :) (Well I've only got a snippet, but that's the conversation it's from.)
Ah, yes, that one.

Actually, having let my mind work on this a while, I've realised (or remembered) that Ianto is quite the wallbuilder himself.
*smacks self on forehead* That was pretty much Ianto for the whole of season one, wasn't it? Wall.

Secondly, he lies himself into Torchwood. He cons the conman. And although Jack is clearly livid, I think he also has a lot of respect (both personal and professional) for someone capable of that kind of deception.
Heh. Makes sense to me.

Rhiannon yells back that their dad worked in Debenhams (a department store): "You didn't know him at all!"
That was one of the few things in CoE that came as a genuine shock for me (since so much else was spoiled). It was like "wow, the poor guy died and you still managed to keep messing with him."

All of which brings me to my point, which is that when it comes to Ianto, there's a give and take when it comes to telling the truth and dismantling walls - they're a lot more equal than, say, Gwen and Jack.
Come to think of it, this is how Barney/Robin worked (or should have worked) on HIMYM--albeit with much more cheerful walls. Unfortunately the writers bungled the execution, but when they worked it was because they both recognized each other's defense mechanisms and could let each other continue to have them while being ready to support each other when they slipped. They were both majorly screwed up, of course.

(with added Janto bit because it makes me MELT)
Lol--sometimes I wondered with Jack's log who it was meant for or might read it (in the fictional context). It occasionally seemed to cross a line from the professionally relevant over into the strictly personal. But I suppose that's enough of a justification right there.

Gwen would never have found the facility if Ianto hadn’t helped her. He was wrong to do that. But, of course, he was actually right in the end. There’s no way Gwen would have let it go. I should have trusted her with the information, but I knew what it would do to her.
That's really why I love that episode right there--all those motivations.

[elisi]

*smacks self on forehead* That was pretty much Ianto for the whole of season one, wasn't it? Wall.
A wall in a fancy suit. (And the suit is as much of a defense/armour/uniform as Jack's WW2 outfit.)

That was one of the few things in CoE that came as a genuine shock for me (since so much else was spoiled). It was like "wow, the poor guy died and you still managed to keep messing with him."
M-hm. Although it made so much more sense that he came from a poor background (he and Rose, interestingly, being the only proper working class main characters). Oh, and you reminded me that I have a fic that I never finished where Jack goes to visit Ianto's family. Maybe I should take another look at that...

Unfortunately the writers bungled the execution, but when they worked it was because they both recognized each other's defense mechanisms and could let each other continue to have them while being ready to support each other when they slipped. They were both majorly screwed up, of course.
Of course! And I'm sorry that they got screwed by the writers, but that happens way too often. :(

Lol--sometimes I wondered with Jack's log who it was meant for or might read it (in the fictional context).
I always saw it as very private - notes for himself. (Since he'd be at Torchwood for the forseeable future...)

That's really why I love that episode right there--all those motivations.
As it happens, solitary_summer just wrote about it!