Not sure this has anything to do with Valentines...

[elisi]

Well, here are some thoughts (not original I'm afraid, these are borrowed from all over and put together with sticky-backed plastic!) on the B/A kiss in EoD/Chosen:

There’s a lovely long discussion of the B/A kiss and the B/S relationship in molly_may’s latest post, and it got me thinking. Only there’s this thing that happenes when I think too much, and I decided to do my own post instead of spamming... this might get long!

Now, the B/A scene (to me) says ‘nostalgia’. The characters, the actors, the writers, the crew... I think they all went “Aw, look - it's Angel! How tall and handsome he is, how heroic, and how straight his hair grows (and that does look kinda stupid, funny how we never noticed before)...” It all about looking back. Buffy gets to have a little ‘time out’ - away from her problems and RL complications. Angel is safe - because he is no longer a part of her life. And much like she could with Spike in early S6, she can offload on Angel to some extent. She can flirt a little, she can be silly - he’ll leave anyway (because she’ll make him - this time it’s her call!). And I’m sure those feelings are shared by Angel. Those who’ve been watching AtS know that he’s just given up his son, mind wiped all his friends, Cordelia is in a coma and he’s taken over Evil inc. He’s not in a good place. So what does he do - he plays the part of ‘the big hero’ and the jealous ex... it’s an outlet. Despite Buffy’s “Sometimes, I do think that far ahead” they both know it’ll never happen... as AtS S5 goes on to show. When Buffy finds out who he’s now working for, she lets Angel know in no uncertain terms that they’re not even friends anymore.

Also - one thing that struck me about the kiss. The last time that Buffy and Angel kissed (that we saw anyway) was in 'Forever'. And that kiss was... well, very Bangel. I want you, but I can't have you and oh! The Angst! The kiss in Chosen - nothing. No sudden, desperate need, no 'You'd better leave because I can't help myself'. It's a - I hate to say it, but it's a happy kiss. There's 'basking' and 'Gee - what are you doing here?' and basically they're kinda comfortable. There is NO angst, no urges that have to be suppressed - no fire. They're quite simply two exes who meet and aren't about to hook up again. But onto the main point...

Basically, Angel shows up on BtVS for three reasons - the first two are to give Buffy the amulet and for her to be able to do her ‘cookie’-speech, to show how she’s maturing and realising that all this relationship stuff is difficult and she’s not ready to settle down yet. But we didn’t need for them to kiss to do that. A hug would be fine. And the kiss is not there to show that Buffy and Angel are somehow destined to be together. No, the kiss is there for the third reason - Spike!

In ‘Touched’ Spike gives a beautiful speech to Buffy about his love for her. That it’s essentially selfless - he needs nothing from her, he asks nothing of her. Loving her is enough. But... love needs testing. In ‘Intervention’ Spike’s love was tested and was proven to be real. That’s not the question here. We all know that the love is real - but is is truly selfless? Can he live up to his words?

At the end of ‘End of Days’ Buffy and Angel fall into each other’s arms and kiss. But that’s not the end of the episode - it’s only a set-up. The camera goes from the couple to focus on the person standing in the shadows, the one it’s all about... Spike. Will he pass the test or will he turn to the evil spirit whispering nasty words in his ear? Because S7 - and Chosen in particular - is All. About. Spike. That last shot makes it very clear that the outcome of the big battle will have nothing to do with Buffy or Angel, and everything to do with a peroxide blond vampire.

So I don’t mind the kiss... much.

Happy Valentines! ;)

Comments

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree with you that the last episodes were very much All About Spike and the kiss was indeed a set up to see if he really did love her selflessly or selfishly.
Your icon is making me giggle btw.

[elisi]

I *love* the icon! :)

And I'm glad you agree - that how it always struck me, and I never thought that the kiss meant much in itself.

[jenjojen.livejournal.com]

Word, so very word! You know, Spike is the bestest ever. I lurve him. I don't care how much it pissed the anti-Spike's off. Like you said, Season 7, is ALL ABOUT SPIKE!!!!

[elisi]

Heeeeee! :)

And AtS S5 was All About Spike too - if you haven't read thedeadlyhook's S5 thoughts 'Dude, where's my soul?', you should do so now! :)

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

Interesting points that make sense to me.

[elisi]

Oh good. I always worry that I'll muddle up my arguments.

[shapinglight]

I still mind the kiss, cos to me it makes Buffy look pretty cheap. Also, by that stage of the season, I was sick to death of the whole 'Will Spike Go Evil This Week?' thing. I mean, only the most blinkered of the antis thought he still might at that point.

However, I do agree that the season was all about Spike. Really, he was the only character left about whom ME had anything to say at all.

[elisi]

I was sick to death of the whole 'Will Spike Go Evil This Week?' thing.

Well, I can understand that, although I never took any notice of it myself.

And I guess anyone would run out of stories after 7 years... sadly that was very much the case with Cordy.

(Oh, and have you read the post by thedeadlyhook that I rec'd to jenjojen. If not, you should. I think you'll find a lot to agree with.)

[avidrosette.livejournal.com]

Terrific analysis of a really thorny scene. Reconciles me a bit to that ridiculous kiss.

[elisi]

Thank you - although as I said it's all bits'n'pices I've read elsewhere. I just felt like putting them all together. And since we're stuck with the kiss, we might as well make the best of it! *puts on brave face*

(Also it was so far from a hot Spuffy kiss as to be practically chaste!)

[pfeifferpack.livejournal.com]

Spot on! ITA it's all about Spike (hey, even the FE proved that by spending most of its time tryng to either get the scoobies or Buffy to kill Spike by having him kill again, or at least discredit him, finally had to grab him for itself to torture/kill and when Buffy got him back, used Wood/Giles to try again....he was the FE's major target throughout!).

But I digress, about the kissage and cookies! The kiss was nostalgia (like the whole of the Bangel...or Bungel relationship post S3). Angel even reverted to juvenile behavior, "What are you, 12?" For that moment, there was no Kate, Cordy, Darla, Cordy pt 2, future Nina, for Angel and no Parker, Riley, Spike for Buffy. They regressed to a "happier" time, the time of the fairie tale love that is Bangel. Angel had his perfect young princess to love and champion (less her other traits), and she had her heroic, nobel soulful love (less his lies and manipulations, etc). They saw, once again, each other and life through rose colored, false glasses. It was an escape, nothing more.

Her cookie speech could NEVER apply to Angel because the problem with their "love" was never her immaturity, but the curse and the happy clause. No amount of baking will change the problem there. However, proper baking would allow her to pursue the grown up, messy, real love she was just beginning to feel with Spike. The speech was more about her ability to be a mature partner.....NOT to Angel, because...hey, the curse!

As for not seeing fat grandchildren with Spike....Vampire! No grandchildren (she likely never knew about Connor and the possibility of vampire offspring). That comment meant nothing about a possible imagined future with Spike.

Ok, shutting up now. You said it well anyway.

Kathleen

[elisi]

Heee! Wonderful thoughts! :)

I don't really have anything much to add, except to point you in the direction of this post which deals with what Angel and Spike want from Buffy. Very excellent - only found it this morning.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

As for not seeing fat grandchildren with Spike....Vampire! No grandchildren (she likely never knew about Connor and the possibility of vampire offspring). That comment meant nothing about a possible imagined future with Spike.

It was my impression that this remark meant she did give fat grandchildren with Spike some thought. ;)

[sdwolfpup.livejournal.com]

I very much agree that the kiss was a way to let us see that Spike really meant what he said in 'Touched.' I was still fairly new to B:tVS at that time so I was worried they were going to make Spike turn on Buffy because of the Angel-kissage, when it was clear to me (as a newbie - seriously, my first live episode was Lies My Parents Told Me and I hadn't seen many of the other seasons since then, just season 6) that Spike and Buffy loved each other. It's one of the reasons I think I like Season 7 so much; I consider it "my" season because it's when I came into the show, and not having all those years of online fandom I could interpret the show the way I saw it at the time. And to me they were telling a love story.

Although I do disagree that Season 7 is All About Spike and some day I'll finish the post I've started about it. In fact, I'm going to re-watch S7 in the next month while I do my cardio so maybe next month I'll get it done. Hee. :)

Thanks for sharing these thoughts, and happy valentine's day! I love the icon.

[elisi]

I consider it "my" season because it's when I came into the show

That's so nice. Although I watched from the start (pretty much), I was never aware of the online fandom until after Buffy finished, and I'm very grateful for that. I quite simply watched for the enjoyment, and - like you - what I saw was a love story.

And I know that S7 isn't really All About Spike. ;) I just felt like showing why he was very important! And I'm now looking forward to your post very much...

Icon made by killmebecomeme.

[paratti.livejournal.com]

I thought it reflected incredibly badly on the character of Buffy, especially with how she completely blew away Spike's right to be upset about it. Added to smiling over his still warm ash, the basking and the indignation that he had the temerity to be upset made me want never to see her nasty little face again, and to want something better for Spike. Someone capable of growing up, not someone who signally failed to do so over 7 years of a growing up tale.

[elisi]

You know I almost put a little note a the end of the post, saying 'Please don't go ranting about Buffy!'

Anyway, I know we'll never agree, but I thought that it was a beautiful love story and that the smile was very fitting. Chosen is the opposite of Becoming, and Spike manages to leave Buffy stronger, rather than torn apart.

(And when he told her to go away after giving him the amulet, she knew perfectly well that he had the right to do so - he was calling the shots!)

[danceswithwords.livejournal.com]

I think "nostalgia" is an incredibly apt term for that kiss. It was all about reliving the past rather than looking forward to a future. And it does neatly set up Spike's speech in "Touched" as an act of selfless love.

At the same time, it really grates my cheese because I was incredibly emotionally invested in AtS S4 and Angel's relationship with Connor and, really, his entire struggle with Wolfram & Hart since his first days in L.A. His demeanor in Sunnydale was totally incongruous with that and really took me out of the story, totally killed my suspension of disbelief in that moment. It feels like pandering to part of the fanbase. Then again, I feel like a lot of Spike/Buffy in S7 is emotionally manipulative tightrope walking by the writers to try to keep from pissing off various fan factions, so I'm the first to admit that I have S7 Issues. I really need to rewatch the season, which I haven't done since it aired (!), to see if my feelings about it change.

[elisi]

I hadn't seen any of AtS when I watched 'Chosen', so it didn't grate at the time, but later I've wondered about Angel's cheerfulness, and I think he's very much 'playing pretend' - being who Buffy thinks he is!

I've watched a few S7 episodes now and again. But I'd like to re-watch them all at some point to see how it all works.

[fishsanwitt]

I really love this post. It *totally* makes sense to me.

I could become bitter *so* easily over Buffy's behaviour in Seasons 6 and 7 - but I'm sitting here with 7 seasons of DVDs and I don't think that's going to work for me :) so, I'm *choosing* to see the bright side. I wish it was easier - I wish I didn't have to make a 'choice' to do this - but the series made it very hard for *me* to look at Buffy in a good light, near the end.

I don't want to be dragged down though, by my bitter thoughts and recriminations, over what *could* have been.

That's why I love your posts. You give me another way of looking at things, of working things out - and I appreciate that *very much* :)

And thank you for all the links to the other discussions.

[fishsanwitt]

And I'm putting this in my memories too :)

[molly_may]

She can flirt a little, she can be silly - he’ll leave anyway (because she’ll make him - this time it’s her call!).

Buffy can always be comfortable with the knowledge that Angel is going to leave her. He *always* leaves her. It's one of the defining traits of their relationship.

There is NO angst, no urges that have to be suppressed - no fire. They're quite simply two exes who meet and aren't about to hook up again.

Yep, I think that's a great description of it. Nothing about their meeting in the episode signals that they're going to end up together. Instead, it almost feels like Buffy is letting go of the angst and pain that has defined their relationship and is ready to move on.

[elisi]

He *always* leaves her. It's one of the defining traits of their relationship.

Exactly. And Spike always comes back.

it almost feels like Buffy is letting go of the angst and pain that has defined their relationship and is ready to move on.

I like that - I think that's where my thought were heading, but I never got that far.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

The kiss at the end of “End of Days” doesn’t bother me for the reasons you listed, and others like” it has a dream-like quality to it. The familiarity, the ease – everything just like a dream, not the reality of Bangel. Plus a healthy dose of the after-fight adrenalin both on the Buffy’s side and Angel’s.

However, after five minutes if basking Buffy wakes up to reality – she obviously is glad to see him, but she doesn’t need /want him near anymore. Five minutes of basking is enough for her. She cannot yet say: “nice to see you, but we are done” to Angel, but she says so many “maybe” and “whatever” that I feel that she would be ready to by the end of the “Chosen” ;)

[elisi]

a healthy dose of the after-fight adrenalin both on the Buffy’s side and Angel’s

That's another very good point!

And I like the 'wakes up to reality' - that's it exactly I think. :)

[spacedoutlooney.livejournal.com]

Love this post. I have a lot of thoughts about Angel's appearance in Chosen (and several of the other topics raised in this thread), and I will expand upon them in my journal later when I have time. Suffice it to say, I feel about Angel's appearance (the kiss and all) much the way I feel about the rest of Chosen, like I simultaneously love and hate it at the same time, which is why the episode sits securely in the middle of my rankings of all the episodes. Joss mentions in the DVD commentary that he felt really exhausted by the end, and he was angsting about how to have a B/A moment followed by a B/S moment (and from the way he talks, he appears to have felt an enormous amount of pressure from the B/A shipper fans), and it shows. But despite all the pressure, he did a good, though not stellar job.

[elisi]

Looking forward to your thoughts.

And I have to say that really, really like Chosen, kiss and all. I only wish it could have been 2 hours long, so there could have been more exploration of Spuffy.

(And poor Joss, it really can't have been easy.)

[withafireinside.livejournal.com]

I'm too tired to come up with anything interesting to say. I just wanted to say I liked your post. :)

[elisi]

Well, I think the subject has been well and truly exhausted! But thank you for commenting, it means a lot! :)

[yourlibrarian]

Your interpretation seems pretty close to the one I had when I saw the episode. I was also concerned about some last minute rift between Spike and Buffy and I really thought it was passed off too quickly. Had we gotten the two hour finale we needed (or had less time been wasted during the season) I think this tension could have been dragged out longer in a more natural manner. I rather liked seeing Angel's appearance and the way it wrapped up their part of the show. To some degree things were left open. I got the impression she would always have a soft spot for him but that they had very separate lives at this point and in no way would they recross in the near future.

[elisi]

I got the impression she would always have a soft spot for him but that they had very separate lives at this point and in no way would they recross in the near future.

Very well put. And it would have been wonderful to have a 2-hour finale. But I'm very happy with what we did get, so I'm not going to complain. :)

[wendylouwho.livejournal.com]

I'm in love with this post. I agree with you completely. That scene was one of those that I let the emotion of Spike seeing the kiss take me away from the bigger picture of the story. Thank you for bringing it all back into the light for me.

[elisi]

I'm in love with this post

Really? Squee!

And it's funny, but the more I thought about it, the less I minded the kiss... it just perfectly showed that Buffy and Angel were finally over.

[lillianmorgan.livejournal.com]

Ho Ha He Hi - how did I miss this wonderful post? A thousand THANK YOUs!
Isn't it scary to think of what Angel has done right up to that moment, and he gets this glow come over him in the story line that he's the returning angel, come to save the day. I guess it's setting up the storyline very nicely as well for AtS 5 where HE's got to grow too. I don't think he's the bad guy - just maybe the wrong guy?
Yeah, it is all about Spike, isn't it? And it's all about choices. And it's all about moving on and finding new ways, new avenues for all three of them!
There is NO angst, no urges that have to be suppressed - no fire.
This reminded me of Seeing Red where Spike talks about how they're not old-marrieds. Of course his speech gets subsumed by later events (the less said the better) but that's why I like Spike and Buffy - the passion is addictive! :)

[elisi]

A thousand "You're welcome"-s back to you! :)

I don't know if you had time to read all the threads, but there are a lot of discussions about the way Angel acts, knowing what he's just gone through. But this point: I guess it's setting up the storyline very nicely as well for AtS 5 where HE's got to grow too is a very good one, and not one I've seen before. And actually, in S5, he isn't really 'the hero' anymore... it's a role he tries to play, but it doesn't sit all that comfortably anymore!

And re. the passion... I actually sat down and watched the relevant scene in 'Forever' and the difference is astounding. How the Bangel-shippers can turn the Chosen kiss into a confirmation of their ship is very strange. There is just no sparkage!

[spikeylover.livejournal.com]

I agree about the kiss and the motive behind it. Yes, he was unselfish and truly loved her, but I do believe it is why Spike never opened up to her again and couldn't believe her love.

[elisi]

Eeek! I never replied to this comment! Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree. :)

(I can see why you've come to your conclusion, I just came to another.)