Not sure this has anything to do with Valentines...

[elisi]

Well, here are some thoughts (not original I'm afraid, these are borrowed from all over and put together with sticky-backed plastic!) on the B/A kiss in EoD/Chosen:

There’s a lovely long discussion of the B/A kiss and the B/S relationship in molly_may’s latest post, and it got me thinking. Only there’s this thing that happenes when I think too much, and I decided to do my own post instead of spamming... this might get long!

Now, the B/A scene (to me) says ‘nostalgia’. The characters, the actors, the writers, the crew... I think they all went “Aw, look - it's Angel! How tall and handsome he is, how heroic, and how straight his hair grows (and that does look kinda stupid, funny how we never noticed before)...” It all about looking back. Buffy gets to have a little ‘time out’ - away from her problems and RL complications. Angel is safe - because he is no longer a part of her life. And much like she could with Spike in early S6, she can offload on Angel to some extent. She can flirt a little, she can be silly - he’ll leave anyway (because she’ll make him - this time it’s her call!). And I’m sure those feelings are shared by Angel. Those who’ve been watching AtS know that he’s just given up his son, mind wiped all his friends, Cordelia is in a coma and he’s taken over Evil inc. He’s not in a good place. So what does he do - he plays the part of ‘the big hero’ and the jealous ex... it’s an outlet. Despite Buffy’s “Sometimes, I do think that far ahead” they both know it’ll never happen... as AtS S5 goes on to show. When Buffy finds out who he’s now working for, she lets Angel know in no uncertain terms that they’re not even friends anymore.

Also - one thing that struck me about the kiss. The last time that Buffy and Angel kissed (that we saw anyway) was in 'Forever'. And that kiss was... well, very Bangel. I want you, but I can't have you and oh! The Angst! The kiss in Chosen - nothing. No sudden, desperate need, no 'You'd better leave because I can't help myself'. It's a - I hate to say it, but it's a happy kiss. There's 'basking' and 'Gee - what are you doing here?' and basically they're kinda comfortable. There is NO angst, no urges that have to be suppressed - no fire. They're quite simply two exes who meet and aren't about to hook up again. But onto the main point...

Basically, Angel shows up on BtVS for three reasons - the first two are to give Buffy the amulet and for her to be able to do her ‘cookie’-speech, to show how she’s maturing and realising that all this relationship stuff is difficult and she’s not ready to settle down yet. But we didn’t need for them to kiss to do that. A hug would be fine. And the kiss is not there to show that Buffy and Angel are somehow destined to be together. No, the kiss is there for the third reason - Spike!

In ‘Touched’ Spike gives a beautiful speech to Buffy about his love for her. That it’s essentially selfless - he needs nothing from her, he asks nothing of her. Loving her is enough. But... love needs testing. In ‘Intervention’ Spike’s love was tested and was proven to be real. That’s not the question here. We all know that the love is real - but is is truly selfless? Can he live up to his words?

At the end of ‘End of Days’ Buffy and Angel fall into each other’s arms and kiss. But that’s not the end of the episode - it’s only a set-up. The camera goes from the couple to focus on the person standing in the shadows, the one it’s all about... Spike. Will he pass the test or will he turn to the evil spirit whispering nasty words in his ear? Because S7 - and Chosen in particular - is All. About. Spike. That last shot makes it very clear that the outcome of the big battle will have nothing to do with Buffy or Angel, and everything to do with a peroxide blond vampire.

So I don’t mind the kiss... much.

Happy Valentines! ;)

Comments

[elisi]

Heee! Wonderful thoughts! :)

I don't really have anything much to add, except to point you in the direction of this post which deals with what Angel and Spike want from Buffy. Very excellent - only found it this morning.

[pfeifferpack.livejournal.com]

Thanks for linking me to this.....lots of interesting points!

The only possible disagreement (if that, I think it may be too strong a term) I might have with what they are saying is that I think Buffy was on her way to opening her heart to Spike in the end and an 8th season would have required ME to develop it.

The ONLY rub is The Girl In Question. I can understand (not like, mind you) Buffy's behavior, even towards Spike, when I put into perspective that she was 22, and the amount of loss and fear she was undergoing...not to mention the responsibilities heaped on her...the fate of the world and (thank you for deciding she needed this one, Giles) her friends various problems as well as being instant mom to a teen. The only way TGIQ is palatable to me is if I believe that Andrew lied and that Buffy was not aware of Spike being back from the dead. If she DID know and not only didn't contact him, but passed on word to "move on"...then she went from someone on the brink of mature love to a bitch royal. BtVS Buffy I can understand, TGIQ has to be wanked.

I do go on, don't I??? *g*

Kathleen

[swsa.livejournal.com]

But Andrew never does say that Buffy knows. He says that Buffy loves both of them, but that doesn't at all mean that she knows Spike's alive. I just have no problem with the Buffy stuff in S5. Either she doesn't know about Spike. Or she does know, but also knows that Spike specifically didn't want her to know. And in that case? Well, I can't blame her for not seeking him out. Either she's pissed that he didn't tell her in the first place (which I'd understand), or having gone through the whole "being smothered while you're trying to adjust to being alive again" thing, she figures he must have a reason for not wanting to see her and that he'll come to her when he's ready. When it comes to AtS S5, I have *way* more issues with Spike's behavior than I do with Buffy's.

[pfeifferpack.livejournal.com]

Ah, but they started to straighten Spike out by the end. I equate his behavior to being similar in style and reason to his behavior on BtVS S4 right after the chip and in helping Adam. He was lost in every way. Even his status in existance was questionable when a ghost (like the newly chipped vamp). It looked like he might be hovering over hell even after going over to the good guys too. He was suddenly in the company of strangers and Angel, who was a source of love/hate/disappointment/rivalry for him...a kind of hell in and of itself. Spike was unsure of himself and his direction (even if he HAD a direction for a while). Once he "got his feet under him" he started to be more the way we saw him develop on Buffy. I think it was a "reaction" to the circumstances .... and poor ME writing at first.

Wankin' away *g*
Kathleen
the only problem with Buffy was TGIQ IF what Andrew said and implied was actually from Buffy.

[swsa.livejournal.com]

Oh no, Spike's behavior makes sense to me. I totally buy that he was lost and then terrified of facing Buffy. But it just grates my cheese when so many fans are willing to cut him so much slack for his emotional cowardice, while Buffy gets ripped to shreds for doing the same things.

And TGIQ. I just don't see that there's anything in the episode that says that Andrew's speaking for Buffy. Ultimately, that's why TGIQ never bothers me...it's everyone's view of Buffy without us ever getting to hear her side of what's going on. So we don't actually know anything. We don't know if she knows Spike's alive, we don't know what she feels for the Immortal, we don't know what she's gone through in the past year. And so, to me, it's just ridiculous to make any judgements on whether she's grown up, changed, regressed, become a fickle bitch, etc. when we never even get to see her.

[pfeifferpack.livejournal.com]

Good points one and all! I like to think that Buffy PROgressed as she was showing rather than REgressed if the behavior was bitcaesque.

Yes Spike was scared, and I don't blame him. I cut him as much slack after his resurrection as I did Buffy after hers.

Kathleen

[elisi]

One more point that I only just thought of - if Andrew told Buffy, he might very well have said that Spike was working with Angel, which to Buffy would mean that Spike was also working for W&H, which would mean that there was no way she could really justify trying to see him.

Also I *love* all the points that swsa made. I can't understand why Buffy gets so much flak! She's only human!

[pfeifferpack.livejournal.com]

And very young! Hard to remember given all the "life" she's had....she was only 22 on the last birthday, hardly mature in most people! She had also suffered in rapid succession:

1)Her father leaving and parents divorce
2)finding out the monsters are real and she has to kill them
3)Move to a new community
4)finding she can't outrun her "destiny", must save the world nightly and TRY to do high school work at the same time (meanwhile keeping it all secret from mom)
5) finding out she's prophacied to die, and does
6)having her "first" experience unleash hell
7)losing her first love without even a goodbye kiss
8)getting a new "sister" and discovering false memories
9)mom dies while Buffy is trying to protect mom and sister from a hellgod
10)loses first "Normal" boyfriend and most hope for normal anything
11)drops out of college, feels a stupid failure
12)meets an enemy she feels she can't defeat (Glory)
13) loses sister to Glory and has total mental/emotional breakdown with no recovery time allowed or therapy after
14)dies in sisters place
15)pulled from heaven and peace by "Friends" who make it clear they expect her to just pick up where she left off as "The Slayer"
16) is hit with overwhelming bills, household for upkeep, and becoming a "mother" to a teen
17)"protecting"her friends sensibilities
18) abandoned by father figure, Giles, who also lets her know that her friends need help and SHE is the one who needs to do this

so much more along with patrolling nightly and work, etc. All at the age of 22!!!

It's a miracle she was sane! That's the woman Spike saw and that's the woman he loved.

Kathleen
worday as usual!

[elisi]

Exactly!!!!!!!!! I really don't know how she managed to survive!

That's the woman Spike saw and that's the woman he loved.

Oh, yes! Thank you so much for all your wonderful comments! :)

[mikeygs.livejournal.com]

I really don't think it takes very much to wank TGIQ. Andrew wouldn't have told Buffy simply because keeping the secret made him special, a part of something bigger. He'd also gain confidence in himself by being held in Spike's trust, and I don't think he'd want to let him down. All that would go a long way to explain the differences we see in him during that episode. Once he was meek and insecure; in TGIQ he was self-assured and composed. That's what I think, anyway.

[pfeifferpack.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, it is easy to wank (I am soooo happy about that!). ITA about Andrew (plus, he might have had a bit of a crush on the Immortal himself).

Kathleen

[elisi]

he might have had a bit of a crush on the Immortal himself

Heee! Why did I never think of that?

[pfeifferpack.livejournal.com]

Seems like exactly Andrew's "type" to me!

Kathleen

[elisi]

What swsa and mickeygs said.

[ladylavinia.livejournal.com]

Or . . . it's possible that Buffy knew that Spike was alive and was pissed that he never told her.

[elisi]

It's funny, but I've thought exactly the same thing. :) And I've even turned it into a drabble:
http://elisi.livejournal.com/140213.html#cutid1
(the 5th one!)
/end gratuitous self-pimp!

Oh and thanks for reading my post. :)