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Not sure this has anything to do with Valentines...
Well, here are some thoughts (not original I'm afraid, these are borrowed from all over and put together with sticky-backed plastic!) on the B/A kiss in EoD/Chosen:
There’s a lovely long discussion of the B/A kiss and the B/S relationship in![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
molly_may’s latest post, and it got me thinking. Only there’s this thing that happenes when I think too much, and I decided to do my own post instead of spamming... this might get long!
Now, the B/A scene (to me) says ‘nostalgia’. The characters, the actors, the writers, the crew... I think they all went “Aw, look - it's Angel! How tall and handsome he is, how heroic, and how straight his hair grows (and that does look kinda stupid, funny how we never noticed before)...” It all about looking back. Buffy gets to have a little ‘time out’ - away from her problems and RL complications. Angel is safe - because he is no longer a part of her life. And much like she could with Spike in early S6, she can offload on Angel to some extent. She can flirt a little, she can be silly - he’ll leave anyway (because she’ll make him - this time it’s her call!). And I’m sure those feelings are shared by Angel. Those who’ve been watching AtS know that he’s just given up his son, mind wiped all his friends, Cordelia is in a coma and he’s taken over Evil inc. He’s not in a good place. So what does he do - he plays the part of ‘the big hero’ and the jealous ex... it’s an outlet. Despite Buffy’s “Sometimes, I do think that far ahead” they both know it’ll never happen... as AtS S5 goes on to show. When Buffy finds out who he’s now working for, she lets Angel know in no uncertain terms that they’re not even friends anymore.
Also - one thing that struck me about the kiss. The last time that Buffy and Angel kissed (that we saw anyway) was in 'Forever'. And that kiss was... well, very Bangel. I want you, but I can't have you and oh! The Angst! The kiss in Chosen - nothing. No sudden, desperate need, no 'You'd better leave because I can't help myself'. It's a - I hate to say it, but it's a happy kiss. There's 'basking' and 'Gee - what are you doing here?' and basically they're kinda comfortable. There is NO angst, no urges that have to be suppressed - no fire. They're quite simply two exes who meet and aren't about to hook up again. But onto the main point...
Basically, Angel shows up on BtVS for three reasons - the first two are to give Buffy the amulet and for her to be able to do her ‘cookie’-speech, to show how she’s maturing and realising that all this relationship stuff is difficult and she’s not ready to settle down yet. But we didn’t need for them to kiss to do that. A hug would be fine. And the kiss is not there to show that Buffy and Angel are somehow destined to be together. No, the kiss is there for the third reason - Spike!
In ‘Touched’ Spike gives a beautiful speech to Buffy about his love for her. That it’s essentially selfless - he needs nothing from her, he asks nothing of her. Loving her is enough. But... love needs testing. In ‘Intervention’ Spike’s love was tested and was proven to be real. That’s not the question here. We all know that the love is real - but is is truly selfless? Can he live up to his words?
At the end of ‘End of Days’ Buffy and Angel fall into each other’s arms and kiss. But that’s not the end of the episode - it’s only a set-up. The camera goes from the couple to focus on the person standing in the shadows, the one it’s all about... Spike. Will he pass the test or will he turn to the evil spirit whispering nasty words in his ear? Because S7 - and Chosen in particular - is All. About. Spike. That last shot makes it very clear that the outcome of the big battle will have nothing to do with Buffy or Angel, and everything to do with a peroxide blond vampire.
So I don’t mind the kiss... much.
Happy Valentines! ;)
There’s a lovely long discussion of the B/A kiss and the B/S relationship in
molly_may’s latest post, and it got me thinking. Only there’s this thing that happenes when I think too much, and I decided to do my own post instead of spamming... this might get long!Now, the B/A scene (to me) says ‘nostalgia’. The characters, the actors, the writers, the crew... I think they all went “Aw, look - it's Angel! How tall and handsome he is, how heroic, and how straight his hair grows (and that does look kinda stupid, funny how we never noticed before)...” It all about looking back. Buffy gets to have a little ‘time out’ - away from her problems and RL complications. Angel is safe - because he is no longer a part of her life. And much like she could with Spike in early S6, she can offload on Angel to some extent. She can flirt a little, she can be silly - he’ll leave anyway (because she’ll make him - this time it’s her call!). And I’m sure those feelings are shared by Angel. Those who’ve been watching AtS know that he’s just given up his son, mind wiped all his friends, Cordelia is in a coma and he’s taken over Evil inc. He’s not in a good place. So what does he do - he plays the part of ‘the big hero’ and the jealous ex... it’s an outlet. Despite Buffy’s “Sometimes, I do think that far ahead” they both know it’ll never happen... as AtS S5 goes on to show. When Buffy finds out who he’s now working for, she lets Angel know in no uncertain terms that they’re not even friends anymore.
Also - one thing that struck me about the kiss. The last time that Buffy and Angel kissed (that we saw anyway) was in 'Forever'. And that kiss was... well, very Bangel. I want you, but I can't have you and oh! The Angst! The kiss in Chosen - nothing. No sudden, desperate need, no 'You'd better leave because I can't help myself'. It's a - I hate to say it, but it's a happy kiss. There's 'basking' and 'Gee - what are you doing here?' and basically they're kinda comfortable. There is NO angst, no urges that have to be suppressed - no fire. They're quite simply two exes who meet and aren't about to hook up again. But onto the main point...
Basically, Angel shows up on BtVS for three reasons - the first two are to give Buffy the amulet and for her to be able to do her ‘cookie’-speech, to show how she’s maturing and realising that all this relationship stuff is difficult and she’s not ready to settle down yet. But we didn’t need for them to kiss to do that. A hug would be fine. And the kiss is not there to show that Buffy and Angel are somehow destined to be together. No, the kiss is there for the third reason - Spike!
In ‘Touched’ Spike gives a beautiful speech to Buffy about his love for her. That it’s essentially selfless - he needs nothing from her, he asks nothing of her. Loving her is enough. But... love needs testing. In ‘Intervention’ Spike’s love was tested and was proven to be real. That’s not the question here. We all know that the love is real - but is is truly selfless? Can he live up to his words?
At the end of ‘End of Days’ Buffy and Angel fall into each other’s arms and kiss. But that’s not the end of the episode - it’s only a set-up. The camera goes from the couple to focus on the person standing in the shadows, the one it’s all about... Spike. Will he pass the test or will he turn to the evil spirit whispering nasty words in his ear? Because S7 - and Chosen in particular - is All. About. Spike. That last shot makes it very clear that the outcome of the big battle will have nothing to do with Buffy or Angel, and everything to do with a peroxide blond vampire.
So I don’t mind the kiss... much.
Happy Valentines! ;)
no subject
I'm not sure what you mean by "clearly" here, since what is clear to you is not necessarily clear to me, and what is clear to either of us is not necessarily evident to a third person. Jossverse shows tend to be particularly rich texts in terms of personal interpretation; that's no doubt why we discuss them so avidly. In this particular scene, it was clear to me that the Buffy writers were writing generic, old-style Angel onto the show with no regard to continuity with AtS. If you can find deeper meaning and reconcile Angel's behavior in that scene with what was happening on the other show, more power to you. I didn't happen to think that Willow's characterization on AtS was supported by her development on Buffy in the same timeline, but once again, that's a matter of personal interpretation.
no subject
I think what I mean to say is that I think the writers write the crossover episodes such that it's not essential to watch the other show to understand what's going on (and I've something about how originally Angel was going to mention Connor and Cordy but didn't because it would be too confusing for people who only watch Buffy), but I don't believe that they ignore the events that have taken place on the other show. The shows appear to me to hang together like parallel novels, especially since their all in the same 'verse, and watching one helps to inform the other in many ways, and not just the crossovers.
So RE: Angel's appearance here: if you just watch Buffy, it doesn't seem that remarkable; he appears to be the way he's always been. If you watch Angel as well, then his general demeanor here doesn't mesh with his demeanor in Home, which leads me to conclude that he's putting on a front. He didn't tell her anything about what happened in the last two years, despite him asking her about her life. I would argue that both these things are in character for Angel. There are some similarities here and with his appearance in Forever and in that case, those who only watch Buffy did know what he'd been up to, since Dru gave a mini-exposition in Crush, and that the Angel that Buffy sees is not the full picture. And if you compare his behavior when he was around Buffy and the gang in seasons 1-3 (when he has his soul, that is) with his behavior when she's not around (namely I'm thinking of the Darla/Angel scene in Angel, Angel/Willie scene in WML 1) and everything that we learn about his character after that, I sort of have to wonder how much he was "playing a part" then. And I'm not saying he didn't have some valid reasons for acting the way he did on these occasions, just that the way Angel relates to Buffy is questionable.
So in conclusion (whew this is a long ramble), I think that Angel's appearance was written with the previous events of Angel in mind.
no subject
no subject
I was watching Angel avidly at the same time as Buffy, and definitely noticed Angel's changed demeanor. And I am in complete agreement on your general point about Angel putting on a front for Buffy. From the moment they met, he's been careful to shield her from all of the darker aspects of his personality and his past, which is a big part of the reason why I can't get behind Buffy/Angel as a "real" relationship that could actually conceivably work on a long-term basis. I just didn't see any indication in that scene that Angel had stuff going on under the surface, so I personally can't really fanwank it. It very much looks to me like what we see with Angel is what we get, and it's terribly incongruous with what was going on in his life.
the writers write the crossover episodes such that it's not essential to watch the other show to understand what's going on
I think this is definitely the case, and it's a good idea in principle--the two shows had overlapping audience, but there were quite a few people who only watched one or the other. However, I don't think it would have added extra confusion for the Buffy writers to give some indication that all was not as swell with Angel as it seemed on the surface, and that just didn't happen. Then again, by that point in the show I had serious issues with the general sloppiness of the writing in S7 of Buffy, and I think that's what makes it hard for me to make a charitable interpretation of things like that.