Like, I can appreciate him, but Ten hit all the buttons from my Buffy years, and then Eleven (and the Ponds) took over my world, and although Twelve is great he's... a Doctor. And Eleven was MY Doctor. I can understand that. A *terrific* Doctor though! (glares) I think Eleven is mine too, though I’m usually unreasonably protective of characters I cosplay as, so maybe I’m biased (I cosplay as 4 too, but I did 11 first). And I would like to point out that most of my stuff is general , 11-oriented, or interconnected in some weird way, so if you want, I’m not running out any time soon.
I have STILL not written meta about The Husbands of River Song, despite RIVER! Might I surprise you with something there? I mean, you had made a post. Btw, I'd really like you to see a thematic trilogy of fics I wrote during Christmas which are about all the Doctors. And they do contain everything that I have written which is THoRS related. And they are the "ending", everything up until now let's say, is wrapped up, I really like them. Really, about anything: if you like, I could just gradually post it and you read it in 2020 if you want. You don't have to go looking.
For others, obviously the Twelve/Clara co-dependency was like catnip and wholly irresistible, and I dearly wish I felt like that too. It’s a different relationship than say, River or the Ponds, and very complicated. (There’s this rare, very deep, utterly platonic bond, they both become Living Emotional Crutches to each other, they are too alike as personalities (tricky, control issues, sense of adventure, secretiveness and lying, selflessness), great protectiveness on the Doctor’s part and worry for his morality on Clara’s, No Social Skills Doctor who is human in her presence, Clara becoming like him and learning, saving and/or (re)making each other many times in every sense of the word, a mutual reverence/worship because of what you have done for me/what you are, they both suffer/have suffered tragedies and help each other through them etc) But different is not bad. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I just get annoyed at people who are completely, exclusively in love with it or utterly, unreasonably hate it. And they are many. I think you didn’t (“feel like that”), *precisely* because you focused so much on Clara’s meta and symbolic potential –and you were rewarded, so… You’ll be too busy shouting “YES! ALL THE THINGS! SYMBOLISM! THE SONG! DINER TARDIS! WOOOO!” (exaggerating) I mean, you *will *get emotional, but not as much.
Also, am writing my own stuff (both fic & original) and tend to fall into those rabbit holes. Again, totally understandable, and your stuff is great. If you say "just one/a small one/a fragment", or even "do nothing", I do nothing.
Search " In which the 12th Doctor is a famous philosopher". LOL! Although there is a term for that: Spatial genetic multiplicity. ;) That’s just what they want you to think! (puts on tinfoil hat). And this is so much more entertaining! Seriously though, it’s uncanny. The other day I found an early 20th century Russian painting. A friend of mine found one where there’s even the fabulous red velvet coat. And we were like “clones. The only explanation is clones.” –“He is too awesome! We need MORE!”
I can understand that. A *terrific* Doctor though! (glares) Oh I am VERY fond of Twelve. And his glares!
And I would like to point out that most of my stuff is general , 11-oriented, or interconnected in some weird way, so if you want, I’m not running out any time soon. You obviously have a great taste in cosplaying. And what is your name again on ff.net? I can find you easily enough on Deviant Art, but have no idea how to find anything there. Really, about anything: if you like, I could just gradually post it and you read it in 2020 if you want. You don't have to go looking. Realistically it might be 2020... (Am just not in that mood)
But different is not bad. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I just get annoyed at people who are completely, exclusively in love with it or utterly, unreasonably hate it. And they are many. Different is good! I like how it was a nice counterbalance/could be seen a sly criticism/do-over of Ten/Rose, delving much deeper into the issues and how unhealthy that kind of relationship could be. It just didn't hit my buttons like Eleven & his Ponds. (Also I am Pollyanna, so I find the good in everything...)
You’ll be too busy shouting “YES! ALL THE THINGS! SYMBOLISM! THE SONG! DINER TARDIS! WOOOO!” (exaggerating) I mean, you *will *get emotional, but not as much. I can do both oh yes. ;)
Again, totally understandable, and your stuff is great. If you say "just one/a small one/a fragment", or even "do nothing", I do nothing. We'll see.
Seriously though, it’s uncanny. The other day I found an early 20th century Russian painting. A friend of mine found one where there’s even the fabulous red velvet coat. And we were like “clones. The only explanation is clones.” –“He is too awesome! We need MORE!” I can't argue with that.
Oh I am VERY fond of Twelve. Who isn’t?! He who is not fond of 12, is not fond of LIFE!!!
You obviously have a great taste in cosplaying. And what is your name again on ff.net? I can find you easily enough on Dev, but have no idea how to find anything there. Thank you! It mostly strikes as inspiration at 3 in the morning, completely out of nowhere, or after I have dismissed the idea half a dozen times as undoable. Think Movie!Sherlock deducing things montage but backwards: “Oh, a picture of that character…The hair! Similarity!!! Have the trousers, have basic make-up things. The shirt. Now, if I buy a thing, I can cut it in half, and then sew this jacket on it, and paint it yellow, and replace the sleeves, and wear it backwards under this huge Victorian waistcoat and if I combine it with these boots it looks exactly like that character. Elementary”. Oh, and it’s BasiliskRules everywhere.
It might be 2020... (Am just not in that mood) Oh well, whenever you want, I’m just saying. And yes, the mood is important.
I like how it was a nice counterbalance/could be seen a sly criticism/do-over of Ten/Rose, delving much deeper into the issues and how unhealthy that kind of relationship could be. Oh, it definitely could be. Although I think it is different from that too, I can’t see 10/Rose as really platonic, and their co-dependency is not the same: Ten *loves* Rose -> No Rose -> miserable because, well, he loves her. Twelve and Clara are like: “OMG, my favourite person! Not here! Aaah!(hyperventilating) Need… person… to function! You adorkable mess, don’t do this to me again! (mutual protectiveness)”. The “because” doesn’t enter here, the situation just *is* (and they don’t really think about it because it works fine as it is and they are busy being adrenaline junkies.) Moreover, different personalities/character arcs/general relationship with 9 and 11 respectively. Also, I think that despite there still being serious idealization in all cases, 12 and Clara understand each other much better. Of course, one could say this makes it worse for 10/Rose(therefore, criticize it): Because Clara/12 becomes unhealthy because they grow too similar, too attached after all they’ve been through together, they are both traumatized by things, are a bit competitive/push each other to extremes, and they both have done HUGE things for each other, which increases the importance of the one in the other’s eyes too much. *Even* if you want to say “love”, it’s not like that, just that, it’s three different combinations of affection, it’s a very complicated relationship. One could even say that some bad consequences -after all this time- are inevitable. Whereas with 10 and Rose, you want to present a traditional romance, “true love”, let’s say, in every sense of the word. And it is often unhealthy. 10 basically builds himself for Rose. Although *she* has a choice, she doesn’t try to have any real life/relationships outside the TARDIS. They both delude themselves that this can last forever. These two could marry, the lifestyle doesn’t matter in the end; Ten *wishes* he was his clone (see the differences). But the power dynamic is very unbalanced and the dysfunctionality, the problems, the unhealthy aspect is never acknowledged. Not judging the poor bastards, but what I’m trying to say is that the two relationships are unhealthy for different reasons. And the one that *in story* is deemed more important, higher, not-your-typical-dynamic-this-is-deeper, the thing, the love of a lifetime, is slightly more unhealthy and for less excusable reasons. And since it is that (and one can’t say that it’s just deep friendship, Tragic Bromance, co-dependency of survivors of serious shit, mentor-student, *companions* in the most perfect realization of the term etc), it doesn’t have the right to be so.
End of rant, sorry, don’t have my analyses, I can do better than that. Basically, 10/Rose = tragic romance, star-crossed lovers, let’s hurt the Doc, GIVE THEM A HAPPY ENDING, NO, YOU GET CLONE, 10 has great !MANGER! and angst, we want to exploit it, 12/Clara = insanely deep platonic affection, you are both incredibly cute and you do great things; sorry that you’re the Hybrid too, you should split. Go both be the Doctor.
Oh I am VERY fond of Twelve. Who isn’t?! He who is not fond of 12, is not fond of LIFE!!!
You obviously have a great taste in cosplaying. And what is your name again on ff? I can find you easily enough on Dev, but have no idea how to find anything there. Thank you! It mostly strikes as inspiration at 3 in the morning, completely out of nowhere, or after I have dismissed the idea half a dozen times as undoable. Think Movie!Sherlock deducing things montage but backwards: “Oh, a picture of that character…The hair! Similarity!!! Have the trousers, have basic make-up things. The shirt. Now, if I buy a thing, I can cut it in half, and then sew this jacket on it, and paint it yellow, and replace the sleeves, and wear it backwards under this huge Victorian waistcoat and if I combine it with these boots it looks exactly like that character. Elementary”. Oh, and it’s BasiliskRules everywhere.
It might be 2020... (Am just not in that mood) Oh well, whenever you want, I’m just saying. And yes, the mood is important.
I like how it was a nice counterbalance/could be seen a sly criticism/do-over of Ten/Rose, delving much deeper into the issues and how unhealthy that kind of relationship could be. Oh, it definitely could be. Although I think it is different from that too, I can’t see 10/Rose as really platonic, and their co-dependency is not the same: Ten *loves* Rose -> No Rose -> miserable because, well, he loves her. Twelve and Clara are like: “OMG, my favourite person! Not here! Aaah!(hyperventilating) Need… person… to function! You adorkable mess, don’t do this to me again! (mutual protectiveness)”. The “because” doesn’t enter here, the situation just *is* (and they don’t really think about it because it works fine as it is and they are busy being adrenaline junkies.) Moreover, different personalities/character arcs/general relationship with 9 and 11 respectively. Also, I think that despite there still being serious idealization in all cases, 12 and Clara understand each other much better. Of course, one could say this makes it worse for 10/Rose(therefore, criticize it): Because Clara/12 becomes unhealthy because they grow too similar, too attached after all they’ve been through together, they are both traumatized by things, are a bit competitive/push each other to extremes, and they both have done HUGE things for each other, which increases the importance of the one in the other’s eyes too much. *Even* if you want to say “love”, it’s not like that, just that, it’s three different combinations of affection, it’s a very complicated relationship. One could even say that some bad consequences -after all this time- are inevitable. Whereas with 10 and Rose, you want to present a traditional romance, “true love”, let’s say, in every sense of the word. And it is often unhealthy. 10 basically builds himself for Rose. Although *she* has a choice, she doesn’t try to have any real life/relationships outside the TARDIS. They both delude themselves that this can last forever. These two could marry, the lifestyle doesn’t matter in the end; Ten *wishes* he was his clone (see the differences). But the power dynamic is very unbalanced and the dysfunctionality, the problems, the unhealthy aspect is never acknowledged. Not judging the poor bastards, but what I’m trying to say is that the two relationships are unhealthy for different reasons. And the one that *in story* is deemed more important, higher, not-your-typical-dynamic-this-is-deeper, the thing, the love of a lifetime, is slightly more unhealthy and for less excusable reasons. And since it is that (and one can’t say that it’s just deep friendship, Tragic Bromance, co-dependency of survivors of serious shit, mentor-student, *companions* in the most perfect realization of the term etc), it doesn’t have the right to be so.
End of rant, sorry, don’t have my analyses, I can do better than that. Basically, 10/Rose = tragic romance, star-crossed lovers, let’s hurt the Doc, GIVE THEM A HAPPY ENDING, NO, YOU GET CLONE, 10 has great !MANGER! and angst, we want to exploit it, 12/Clara = insanely deep platonic affection, you are both incredibly cute and you do great things; sorry that you’re the Hybrid too, you should split. Go both be the Doctor.
Who isn’t?! He who is not fond of 12, is not fond of LIFE!!! Dude!!
Think Movie!Sherlock deducing things montage but backwards That is a great mental image.
Oh well, whenever you want, I’m just saying. And yes, the mood is important. Also there is never enough time and I am TRYING to write... /o\ Why does fandom not pay?
But the power dynamic is very unbalanced and the dysfunctionality, the problems, the unhealthy aspect is never acknowledged. Lots of lovely thoughts on both relationships, but this is where you touch on the most important part (for me) - Ten/Rose *isn't* healthy, but it's held up as Twu Luw, and that's unfortunate. Don't get me wrong, I find it interesting, and have written it (TenToo/Rose mostly, because you have more interesting things to play with then). But RTD often has a tendency to be a bit too rose-tinted about these things.
End of rant, sorry, don’t have my analyses, I can do better than that. Oh don't apologise, it was very good!!
Basically, 10/Rose There is the PERFECT vid, but - I have just realised - the LJer has deleted their LJ D: D: D: and I don't think it's on youtube... /o\ I'll try to upload it for you, hang on. HERE YOU GO! It's worth watching, trust me. Except if you're epileptic - there is a LOT of flashing imagery.
Basically, 10/Rose Pompeii by purplefringe (I helped beta it!! I love it to pieces) And one day she'll make one for S9 and it'll be glorious. :)
Also there is never enough time and I am TRYING to write... /o\ Why does fandom not pay? PREACH
Lots of lovely thoughts on both relationships, but this is where you touch on the most important part (for me) - Ten/Rose *isn't* healthy, but it's held up as Twu Luw, and that's unfortunate. Don't get me wrong, I find it interesting. But RTD often has a tendency to be a bit too rose-tinted about these things. (wink) Therefore, I actually think Doctor/River is Moffat’s excellent response. My OTP of OTPs, no question about it; but I mean (okay, in general terms, I don’t agree completely, it’s more complicated than that, and most importantly it develops and grows), as a random person on the Internet put it: “I appreciate River and the Doctor's relationship because it is textually acknowledged to be dysfunctional. Even though River may sometimes romanticize their relationship it is always in the context that we are reminded how young she is at that point in their timeline and that she is a fairly messed up person. It's about two seriously messed up people trying to work for something functional rather than something idyllic.”
Oh don't apologise, it was very good!! I’m a perfectionist who among many other things, lost about 40 pages of rambling analyses and geek-notes in the Great Computer Crash of late 2016 and is in the process of painstakingly but successfully reconstructing it –okay, at least the vital bits, we have an OCPD to fight; in some respects the crash was a *good* thing. What I’m trying to say is, thank you; but I’m the person who felt the need to write a passionate two-page essay simply to refute a DW-novice-mum’s outrageous claim that 10 and 11 were not that different (btw, if interested, I thankfully still have that, do tell). And given our respective Who-experience, that’s a bit like finding a wasp in your room and bringing out the flamethrower –which I’d totally do, I’m excessive like that and fuck insects.
First vid: Cool, a bit too much flashing even for a non-epileptic. It made me realise and/or reaffirm two things: 1) 9/ROSE IS THE SHIT, OMG! Those cute motherfuckers! My babies! I mean, no offence to 10, and I’m glad Rose got her happy ending with 10.2, but Nine/Rose is much more interesting to watch. I actually think the *main* problem with 10/Rose is that 10 is usually a more entertaining Doctor with Donna, or Martha, or even just when he’s a lonely emo mess because he misses Rose. David Tennant totally sells that he adores her, but he is far more able to do so and be generally engaging when they are apart. Like, he is just very good at being sad; the audience is like “aww, this must have meant a lot to him. Look at the poor bastard”. The problem is that Rose and their chemistry is good, but I often don’t feel like I’m watching THE DOCTOR (while 9/Rose could do that), and that while it’s not bad by any means, it should be *better* than ANGSTY!10, and in my opinion, it isn’t. 2) YES, YES, YES, FUCK YES, Muse and DW. I’ve already sent you my favourite one. And put the word out, if a Whovian wants to gain my everlasting gratitude, s/he justs needs to do one thing: Make a Series 6 vid with “Take a Bow”. Because that is *totally* what is playing in 11’s head throughout it, increasing in volume and reaching its peak in “The God Complex”, and you can’t convince me otherwise. And *then* do a counterpoint with TWoRS and David Bowie’s “Rock and Roll Suicide”. WHO’S WITH ME?
Second vid: STANDING FUCKING OVATION, WOOOOOO!!!! In the faves asap. Do you know how difficult it is to find good 12 vids, let alone good 12 and Clara vids? But even if it wasn’t, this still would have been bloody brilliant. And of course ALL the connections :) You are absolutely right to love it to pieces. I feel like I should return the favour, somehow reward you, but I think you’ve already watched “The Dead Rory Sketch” and “The Big Whobowski”. (In case you haven’t though, first results you get on google, that’s them, enjoy).
“I appreciate River and the Doctor's relationship because it is textually acknowledged to be dysfunctional. Even though River may sometimes romanticize their relationship it is always in the context that we are reminded how young she is at that point in their timeline and that she is a fairly messed up person. It's about two seriously messed up people trying to work for something functional rather than something idyllic.” This, very much. (And whilst Ten/Rose never did much for me, I am very fond of - and have written - Rose/TenToo fic. Because suddenly there is lots of complexity.)
lost about 40 pages of rambling analyses and geek-notes in the Great Computer Crash of late 2016 and is in the process of painstakingly but successfully reconstructing it :O oh noes!!!
but I’m the person who felt the need to write a passionate two-page essay simply to refute a DW-novice-mum’s outrageous claim that 10 and 11 were not that different I literally have an icon regarding how different they are!! *points* And many essays. :)
9/ROSE IS THE SHIT, OMG! <3
I actually think the *main* problem with 10/Rose is that 10 is usually a more entertaining Doctor with Donna, or Martha, or even just when he’s a lonely emo mess because he misses Rose. People being happy & in love are not exciting to watch. And re. emo!Ten, then he always reminds me of Alexis Denisof as Wesley (on Angel), and this particular description from a review:
'I can't believe I forgot how Denisof as Wesley can stand there and exude pain. It's like a superpower.'
Make a Series 6 vid with “Take a Bow” Oh oh oh. I need to introduce you to Fear Me, I Killed All Of Them, which is that but much wider in scope. I even wrote meta about it. Still gives me shivers in all the best ways.
Second vid: STANDING FUCKING OVATION, WOOOOOO!!!! You are absolutely right to love it to pieces. I wish I could beta more vids, it's *fascinating*. Debating which clips go where, what they symbolise, how it'll flow... Pure joy. (Her best ever vid is Never Look Away which is quite simply a masterpiece.
Am now off to double check if I've watched the vids you recommend. :)
lost about 40 pages of rambling analyses and geek-notes in the Great Computer Crash of late 2016 and is in the process of painstakingly but successfully reconstructing it :O oh noes!!! Well, it’s not that bad now. Things that were mine can be rewritten; things that were not can be found. It just takes time. And come on, what did you expect from 2016?
I literally have an icon regarding how different they are!! *points* And many essays. I love that icon! (and your essays) One upside of the aforementioned disaster was me going through the saved ones (to try and remember better what was lost), and improving them. And one particular small difference struck me regarding 10-11, which I had not thought of before: They very ironically snap in opposite ways when it comes to their god complex. I may be overgeneralising a bit, but: 10 is: “I shall punish evil-doers. Horribly so. Back off. You get one chance. Sorry, I really don’t like it, but.” And then in WoM he’s like “MUST SAVE PEOPLE. Live, damn you”. 11 is: “MUST SAVE PEOPLE. MUST SAVE ALL THE PEOPLE. If someone, ANYONE dies, it’s my fault”. And then whenever he snaps, he’s like “DIE, SCUM. Finally, someone I can hate without feeling like a hypocrite. You are *guiltier*. Wow, I have the moral high ground, I have the *right* to do this. I… I think I’m enjoying this. Fuck.”
People being happy & in love are not exciting to watch. Well, that’s a bit of an overgeneralization I think, it depends on what said people are doing. I understand your point, it *is* easier to make misery interesting to watch. But whoever was bored of Two, I ask you! I don’t think anyone was less interested in 11 and the Ponds or River in the “happy episodes”, let’s say; and even though sad! or lonely!11 is played perfectly by Matt Smith and needs all the hugs, I never said “oh, NOW we’re talking, finally, the Doctor, excitement!” What I’m trying to say is that the state of the characters generally influenced the *mood*, not our level of interest; happy and in love or not, 11 was equally engaging. And he didn’t need to lose people for us to appreciate them and their connection through his level of grief, because we already did so. (Of course, Moffat’s adherence to the Reverse Don Bluth Principle and his Earn Your Happy Ending tendencies do help: he only makes the characters happy after putting them through absolute hell, so of course we accept it.)
'I can't believe I forgot how Denisof as Wesley can stand there and exude pain. It's like a superpower.' I’ll take your word for it, but that is also the most perfect description of David Tennant I have ever heard.
Make a Series 6 vid with “Take a Bow” I need to introduce you to Fear Me, I Killed All of Them, which is that but much wider in scope. Still gives me shivers in all the best ways. Well, the narrow scope was kind of the point with this idea because I really like how Series 6 was built. As I put it in my “Examining the Doctor’s faith” analysis: “It’s almost funny. I mean, either the Silence have an amazing sense of timing with Lake Silencio or Fate suddenly really, really hates him and wants to have fun. The universe is doing half the job in Series 6 if you think about it. It’s like everything is conspiring to push him to the brink and accept his doom. One should basically just clap and go: “Yes, please do continue showing the incredibly old, self-loathing, guilt-ridden, emotionally unstable mess of an alien that he totally sucks, destroys everything, brings death and misery wherever he goes and that if he doesn’t die the universe will blow up. Absolutely nothing wrong here, we’re all ears, having a ball”.
Still, very nice video (and meta). Unfortunately, not really my cup of tea, due to an oversaturation of DW vids with 30 Seconds to Mars songs, (especially this one) and a general indifference towards the band. But still, very nice construction, and eerily similar to a scene from “Forgiven” (I have fics; wish I could make vids, but even so, great minds and all that):
“Ah Sun-flower! weary of time, Who countest the steps of the Sun: Seeking after that sweet golden clime Where the traveler’s journey is done.”
He closes the book – “Songs of Innocence and of Experience” by William Blake - sets it aside and settles back in his chair with a sigh, chin resting on his tangled fingers.
“I can explain. Tell them why I had to”. “You want to be forgiven”.
(“Fear me; I’ve killed all of them”. “You're turning me into you!” “And some, not many but, some died. Not them. Not them, Brian. Never them.”
“Come along Pond. Please”.)
Slowly, almost reverently, he takes off the glasses and places them carefully on the grey, smooth surface of the console.
“Don’t we all?”
(And since I’ve gone off and started talking about my stuff again, I might as well go all the way: You know how many people make playlists about shows? Phoenix-Dragon has many nice ones. This is what I call the “Reverse Fantasia Project”.
Make a playlist, each song/general music piece represents/is the theme of a New Who episode. No DW music.
In progress, varying degrees of seriousness, many different criteria for choosing something: it might be the theme or subject. The lyrics. The allusions made. Parallels in story. The title. The melody. Perhaps the rhythm. If it is famous or symbolic, why. All the above at the same time.As long as something creates a connection in the intertextual mind!
Examples so far include –to give you an understanding: Rose-Muse, Knights of Cydonia The Parting of the Ways- The Hanging Tree Human Nature- Peter Gabriel, Disturbed Family of Blood- All I ever Wanted, piano version Blink- Secret of Survival, The Wind in the Willows Silence in the Library- Fear of the Dark, Iron Maiden The End of Time, P.1 – Muse, Survival Amy’s Choice- The Mind of the Bat, Miracle of Sound The Big Bang- The Ecstasy of Gold/ The Power of Love, Huey Lewis and the News A Christmas Carol- The Grand Finale (Edward Scissorhands soundtrack) Day of the Moon- Muse, Uprising Let’s Kill Hitler- Golden Earring, When The Lady Smiles Asylum of the Daleks- Dario Marianelli, The dominoes fall The Night of the Doctor- Basil Poledouris, The Barricades The Day of the Doctor- The White Tree, LOTR soundtrack The Time of the Doctor- Time (Inception) Time Heist- Misirlou, Pulp Fiction Flatline- You Know My Name, Chris Cornel Hell Bent- Ennio Morricone, The Demise of Barbara and the Return of Joe
At some point in the far future there will be a complete list with links (and possibly short explanations)! Uploaded on Dev! Some day.)
I wish I could beta more vids, it's *fascinating*. Well, after seeing this one I wish that too!
Am now off to double check if I've watched the vids you recommend. So? Had you?
Make a Series 6 vid with “Take a Bow” I need to introduce you to Fear Me, I Killed All of Them, which is that but much wider in scope. Still gives me shivers in all the best ways. Well, the narrow scope was kind of the point with this idea because I really like how Series 6 was built. As I put it in my “Examining the Doctor’s faith” analysis: “It’s almost funny. I mean, either the Silence have an amazing sense of timing with Lake Silencio or Fate suddenly really, really hates him and wants to have fun. The universe is doing half the job in Series 6 if you think about it. It’s like everything is conspiring to push him to the brink and accept his doom. One should basically just clap and go: “Yes, please do continue showing the incredibly old, self-loathing, guilt-ridden, emotionally unstable mess of an alien that he totally sucks, destroys everything, brings death and misery wherever he goes and that if he doesn’t die the universe will blow up. Absolutely nothing wrong here, we’re all ears, having a ball”.
Still, very nice video (and meta). Unfortunately, not really my cup of tea, due to an oversaturation of DW vids with 30 Seconds to Mars songs, (especially this one) and a general indifference towards the band. But still, very nice construction, and eerily similar to a scene from “Forgiven” (I have fics; wish I could make vids, but even so, great minds and all that):
“Ah Sun-flower! weary of time, Who countest the steps of the Sun: Seeking after that sweet golden clime Where the traveler’s journey is done.”
He closes the book – “Songs of Innocence and of Experience” by William Blake - sets it aside and settles back in his chair with a sigh, chin resting on his tangled fingers.
“I can explain. Tell them why I had to”. “You want to be forgiven”.
(“Fear me; I’ve killed all of them”. “You're turning me into you!” “And some, not many but, some died. Not them. Not them, Brian. Never them.”
“Come along Pond. Please”.)
Slowly, almost reverently, he takes off the glasses and places them carefully on the grey, smooth surface of the console.
“Don’t we all?”
(And since I’ve gone off and started talking about my stuff again, I might as well go all the way, and explain my thought process behind that: You know how many people make playlists about shows? Phoenix-Dragon has many nice ones. This is what I call the “Reverse Fantasia Project”.
Make a playlist, each song/general music piece represents/is the theme of a New Who episode. No DW music.
In progress, varying degrees of seriousness, many different criteria for choosing something: it might be the theme or subject. The lyrics. The allusions made. Parallels in story. The title. The melody. Perhaps the rhythm. If it is famous or symbolic, why. All the above at the same time.As long as something creates a connection in the intertextual mind!
Examples so far include –to give you an understanding: Rose-Muse, Knights of Cydonia The Parting of the Ways- The Hanging Tree Human Nature- Peter Gabriel, Disturbed Family of Blood- All I ever Wanted, piano version Blink- Secret of Survival, The Wind in the Willows Silence in the Library- Fear of the Dark, Iron Maiden The End of Time, P.1 – Muse, Survival Amy’s Choice- The Mind of the Bat, Miracle of Sound The Big Bang- The Ecstasy of Gold/ The Power of Love, Huey Lewis and the News A Christmas Carol- The Grand Finale (Edward Scissorhands soundtrack) Day of the Moon- Muse, Uprising Let’s Kill Hitler- Golden Earring, When The Lady Smiles Asylum of the Daleks- Dario Marianelli, The dominoes fall The Night of the Doctor- Basil Poledouris, The Barricades The Day of the Doctor- The White Tree, LOTR soundtrack The Time of the Doctor- Time (Inception) Time Heist- Misirlou, Pulp Fiction Flatline- You Know My Name, Chris Cornel Hell Bent- Ennio Morricone, The Demise of Barbara and the Return of Joe
At some point in the far future there will be a complete list with links (and possibly short explanations)! Uploaded on Dev! Some day.)
I wish I could beta more vids, it's *fascinating*. Well, after seeing this one I wish that too!
Am now off to double check if I've watched the vids you recommend. So? Had you?
Make a Series 6 vid with “Take a Bow” I need to introduce you to Fear Me, I Killed All of Them, which is that but much wider in scope. Still gives me shivers in all the best ways. Well, the narrow scope was kind of the point with this idea because I really like how Series 6 was built. As I put it in my “Examining the Doctor’s faith” analysis: “It’s almost funny. I mean, either the Silence have an amazing sense of timing with Lake Silencio or Fate suddenly really, really hates him and wants to have fun. The universe is doing half the job in Series 6 if you think about it. It’s like everything is conspiring to push him to the brink and accept his doom. One should basically just clap and go: “Yes, please do continue showing the incredibly old, self-loathing, guilt-ridden, emotionally unstable mess of an alien that he totally sucks, destroys everything, brings death and misery wherever he goes and that if he doesn’t die the universe will blow up. Absolutely nothing wrong here, we’re all ears, having a ball”.
Still, very nice video (and meta). Unfortunately, not really my cup of tea, due to an oversaturation of DW vids with 30 Seconds to Mars songs, (especially this one) and a general indifference towards the band. But still, very nice construction, and eerily similar to a scene from “Forgiven” (I have fics; wish I could make vids, but even so, great minds and all that):
“Ah Sun-flower! weary of time, Who countest the steps of the Sun: Seeking after that sweet golden clime Where the traveler’s journey is done.”
He closes the book – “Songs of Innocence and of Experience” by William Blake - sets it aside and settles back in his chair with a sigh, chin resting on his tangled fingers.
“I can explain. Tell them why I had to”. “You want to be forgiven”.
(“Fear me; I’ve killed all of them”. “You're turning me into you!” “And some, not many but, some died. Not them. Not them, Brian. Never them.”
“Come along Pond. Please”.)
Slowly, almost reverently, he takes off the glasses and places them carefully on the grey, smooth surface of the console.
“Don’t we all?”
I wish I could beta more vids, it's *fascinating*. Well, after seeing this one I wish that too!
Am now off to double check if I've watched the vids you recommend. So? Had you?
Well, the narrow scope was kind of the point with this idea because I really like how Series 6 was built. Oh I can see that. However I do love multi-Doctor vids that *work*, so I had to rec it. :)
“It’s almost funny. I mean, either the Silence have an amazing sense of timing with Lake Silencio or Fate suddenly really, really hates him and wants to have fun. The universe is doing half the job in Series 6 if you think about it. It’s like everything is conspiring to push him to the brink and accept his doom. Hmmm. Well, it's the chickens coming home to roost. Partly he's paying for Ten's hubris, but also the Silence are the over-arching nemesis for all of Eleven's era (see the crack) - and S6 is the central part, obviously.
(I have fics; wish I could make vids, but even so, great minds and all that) You and me both. And thank you for sharing.
So? Had you? I had not, and am now greatly indebted to you good sir. The Big Whobowski looks like it could be better than the actual movie, and The Dead Rory Sketch made me laugh entirely too loud. I shall have to share it with my girls later one. :D
I had not, and am now greatly indebted to you good sir. The Big Whobowski looks like it could be better than the actual movie, and The Dead Rory Sketch made me laugh entirely too loud. I shall have to share it with my girls later :D Well, I like to share; I hope they liked it too. And I too would totally watch a movie-long version of The Big Whobowski. In general, Bob Mitsch has incredibly funny videos. Have a browse if you find the time. I really loved the DW parody of They Live.
You know what, I re-watched ‘Fear Me, I Killed All Of Them' recently and oh yes, it really is magnificent. The craft involved managed to overcome my general indifference towards the band and the oversaturation of its songs; I actually really like the song now because of the video. I don’t know, third time’s the charm? (It happens with films too: I was pretty neutral about Edward Scissorhands and V for Vendetta the first time I watched them. Upon rewatch I was like “THIS IS SO AMAZING!”) Or your beautiful meta helped, such things often do (shrug). Anyway, I shall recommend it –along with your meta– in my “20 MORE MUST-Watch Whovian Videos!” these days. Tell the creator if you want, this is like four degrees of separation by now, damn, impressive!
And come on, what did you expect from 2016? Good point.
I love that icon! (and your essays) :D
They very ironically snap in opposite ways when it comes to their god complex. I may be overgeneralising a bit, but: I may have to come back to this, but the thing I was reminded of was a discussion back in the day on doctoreleven (it was the BEST community) regarding Ten & Eleven and their differences. And how Ten spent his whole tenure being eaten up by guilt over what he'd done to his own people. He HAD to be right [in all his morals & judgments] because if he was wrong, maybe he'd been wrong back then too, and then everything would unravel. Then comes EoT and he gets to confront the situation once again, and has to make the same choice, and it's affirmed that it *was* the right choice. (Because Rassilon is bat-shit crazy and would have destroyed the universe.) So - Eleven is borne with a much calmer state of mind. Still guilty, but not in the same way as Ten. And thus he behaves differently.
Well, that’s a bit of an overgeneralization I think, it depends on what said people are doing. Obviously it's an overgeneralisation - I was thinking of people who are in love, and thus focus mostly on each other. Rather than friends who run around having adventures together.
I’ll take your word for it, but that is also the most perfect description of David Tennant I have ever heard. Which is why I brought it up. Indeed I have a whole post.
And how Ten spent his whole tenure being eaten up by guilt over what he'd done to his own people. He HAD to be right because if he was wrong, maybe he'd been wrong back then too, and then everything would unravel. Then comes EoT and he gets to confront the situation once again, and has to make the same choice, and it's affirmed that it *was* the right choice. (Because Rassilon is bat-shit crazy and would have destroyed the universe.) So - Eleven is born with a much calmer state of mind. Still guilty, but not in the same way as Ten. And thus he behaves differently Yes, you had brought this up. Obviously, their differences in this matter and many others can be a result of character development, not just random personality change because of regeneration (For instance, though other factors were at play too, 11 reacts much better to instances of Cloning Blues than 10 did). If he is indeed the same man, his previous mindsets and experiences *have* to shape the way he changes and acts.
Interestingly, I agree with you, but I think that even though 11 *is* calmer, his guilt is *deeper*, he is the most guilt-ridden of all the Doctors (Just my personal view). Because: a) he is OCD –trust me, he is- so he is “okay” and *has* to be in control, thus all the bad stuff is usually hidden under the surface and left to increase and go haywire, b) naturally, he gets older and the guilt accumulates, c) he is constantly confronted -like you said, in part paying for 10’s hubris- with people who are terrified of him and his reputation (See “Why would a Time Lord be a weapon?”) , d) in contrast to 10, he earnestly tries to move on and is constantly thwarted and reminded of the Time War, e) his calmer state of mind (and memory of the EoT confrontation) allows him to not think in absolutes: 10 was either “it was the best place ever, woe is me”, total nostalgia goggles *or* “they were all monsters, I *had* to stop them”. So now I think he sees the picture as it really is, aka, “Well, I really did *have* to do it because the higher-ups would have destroyed the universe. Still. Genocide. Of my own planet. Lots of children. Please kill me.” To quote Ursula Le Guin, “For you’ve done what you had to do, and it was not right”. f) Ironically, I think that this very change in perspective that allows him to at least not think about it all the time, adds more guilt by widening his point of view. I mean yes, of course that is the big thing, but he is no more tunnel-vision about it. So now he goes “Oh. Wait. There was that other planet I ruined. And those species I destroyed because I had no choice. And all those times I was a dick because I was thinking about the War, and maybe I was biased, and did I choose correctly because of that? Oh, and that thing *before* the War, how the hell did I forget that, why didn’t I realise how horrible it was. And all those people who died because I made a mistake. Come to think of it, all those people who died just because I happened to be near. And all those people I personally ruined. Oh my God, Rose, and Martha, and Donna. And now I’m ruining the Ponds. And River. And you know, I really am a terrible person. And here’s another Sadistic Choice I have to make. Yay, more guilt. And I can’t save everyone. And I killed that alien guy. And- You know, maybe the Silence had a point after all.”
So yeah, thank God and Moffat for taking pity on him, and giving him an understanding family and friends, at least *some* happy endings, TDoTD, and a perfect regeneration episode.
Obviously it's an overgeneralisation - I was thinking of people who are in love, and thus focus mostly on each other. Rather than friends who run around having adventures together. Well, I did include people who are in love: Amy and Rory are. The Doctor and River are. Though I suppose you could say that they have a *family* dynamic, even before they discover that they are, so it’s different. But even so, I think 11 has an important advantage there because of the way he’s written –and do I think you can write the Doctor in love just fine, no matter what some people say. (Or he gets better episodes, I don’t know, I need to rewatch Series 2. But he does, doesn’t he?) I equally see the Doctor in an episode with Clara or a River-heavy one. When he is alone, it is equally heartbreaking with 10 but I don’t *want* him to stay that way, that doesn’t make him more interesting to watch. (And again, also, he didn’t need to lose people for us to *really* appreciate them and their connection through his level of grief, because we already did so; which I think is important.) What I’m trying to say is that I felt an increased “Doctorishness” when 10 wasn’t with Rose, perhaps due to how overtly human/traditional hero he tried to be. I mean, he even gets his catchphrase in “Doomsday” and his cool action theme in Series 3. And then there’s the whole “I won’t say I’m in love” aspect –for good, valid, character-based reasons, but still– that keeps their relationship from developing. People who you feel *want* to get married, feed each other chocolates, and shag their collective brains out, but are forced to stay in a stasis because the writing doesn’t know what else to do with them and/or wants tragedy for the sake of tragedy (because 10 *needs* !ANGST! ) are less engaging to watch.
Again, I may be biased because of cosplay and I’m probably too harsh on the poor babies now (Genuinely happy 10 is rare, I know I will go “aww”). Just see this as a subjective, personal view. But I mostly feel it’s a writing thing anyway, like I said: the “I won’t say I’m in love” stasis, the underlying unequal power dynamic… That’s why 10.2/Rose opens up so many possibilities. As a great fic puts it: “It’s not perfect. But in a way it’s better than perfect, because finally it’s real.” And also about writing issues, I think you can have people who are in love; but you have to either give them huge obstacles to overcome, make them unhappy for other reasons, or give them very, very interesting things to do. I mean everyone and their mother (literally!) was already shipping 11/River by the Series 5 finale, and the flirting was over 9000; but we have this mysterious box that’s been hyped up to high heaven, a bajillion hostile armies on our heads, and all of existence and a wedding to save. You have to take drugs to not get invested to “watching Hitchcock” levels. And like I said, Moffat allows our poor favourite bastards to occasionally Earn Their Happy Ending and applies copious amounts of the Reverse Don Bluth Principle. So that helps, I think.
And then there’s the whole “I won’t say I’m in love” aspect –for good, valid, character-based reasons, but still– that keeps their relationship from developing. People who you feel *want* to get married, feed each other chocolates, and shag their collective brains out, but are forced to stay in a stasis because the writing doesn’t know what else to do with them and/or wants tragedy for the sake of tragedy (because 10 *needs* !ANGST! ) are less engaging to watch. Yes, thissss. I talk about this often wrt couples and whether the reason they aren't together is due to character issues or plot issues. Look at Romeo & Juliet - if their families didn't happen to be mortal enemies, they'd just get married and be happy. And it's the same thing with Ten & Rose - if it wasn't because he was a Time Lord, they'd either get married or break up (in spectacular fashion, probably). I much prefer couples where the issues are inherent to *them*. Where they argue and fight and gain a better understanding of each other, and it's not 'happily ever after' but it's complex and complicated. (See Doctor/River. Or Buffy/Spike. Or any of my other OTPs.) Although Spuffy is probably the most divisive. See icon. :)
As a great fic puts it: “It’s not perfect. But in a way it’s better than perfect, because finally it’s real.” Yes, perfectly put.
I mean everyone and their mother (literally!) was already shipping 11/River by the Series 5 finale, and the flirting was over 9000; but we have this mysterious box that’s been hyped up to high heaven, a bajillion hostile armies on our heads, and all of existence and a wedding to save. You have to take drugs to not get invested to “watching Hitchcock” levels. LOL. Although I'm not sure about 'everyone'. I used to have a 'River fan. No apologies' icon. And it was relevant. People did. not. like. her. or they thought she was the Rani or the Master or something else.
LOL. Although I'm not sure about 'everyone'. I used to have a 'River fan. No apologies' icon. And it was relevant. People did. not. like. her. or they thought she was the Rani or the Master or something else. Well, from what I can tell, River *still* is a divisive character. Although I do think that the characters/actors/plots/things that don’t divide the DW fandom can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and I’m being generous.
And now that you mentioned it, GOOD GOD. What is it with the Rani fans?! Why does she have so many, anyway? Every new character is ALWAYS the Rani until proven otherwise! Okay, we all have our faves, but this is not a reasonable or healthy way to approach fiction! Oh well :)
(I’ll get back to you on “Swift Musings” when I get the time -because probable huge explanation about my opinion, why I *will* still stick with it, but also one or two interesting things I hadn’t noticed, were I to go with yours.)
Well, from what I can tell, River *still* is a divisive character. Although I do think that the characters/actors/plots/things that don’t divide the DW fandom can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and I’m being generous. Very true. Although there was a lot of resentment back in the day (the Library episodes) when she waltzed in & claimed the Doctor as HERS! (Didn't she know that the Doctor belonged to ROSE? they yelled...) Ahem. ;)
And now that you mentioned it, GOOD GOD. What is it with the Rani fans?! Why does she have so many, anyway? Every new character is ALWAYS the Rani until proven otherwise! Okay, we all have our faves, but this is not a reasonable or healthy way to approach fiction! Oh well :) Well, how do we know that BILL isn't the Rani, eh? She's science-y and all that. MAYBE THERE IS A FOB WATCH IN HER DRAWERS!!
(I’ll get back to you on “Swift Musings” when I get the time -because probable huge explanation about my opinion, why I *will* still stick with it, but also one or two interesting things I hadn’t noticed, were I to go with yours.) If we agreed on everything, life would be boring. :)
Yes, you had brought this up. Obviously, their differences in this matter and many others can be a result of character development, not just random personality change because of regeneration (For instance, though other factors were at play too, 11 reacts much better to instances of Cloning Blues than 10 did). If he is indeed the same man, his previous mindsets and experiences *have* to shape the way he changes and acts. It's also (IMHO) the way each regeneration is a reaction against the previous one. See Five & Six for the ultimate example. Five is the softest of the Doctors. Six is the closest to being a psychopath. So a lot of Eleven is a reaction against Ten's problematic issues.
Interestingly, I agree with you, but I think that even though 11 *is* calmer, his guilt is *deeper*, he is the most guilt-ridden of all the Doctors (Just my personal view). No arguing with that! Young face, old soul. As Matt Smith said:
"That's what interests me about The Doctor because, actually, look at the blood on the man's hands... Which is why I think he has to make silly jokes and wear a fez. Because if he didn't, he'd hang himself."
Twelve can be more outwardly gruff, because he's lost that massive burden of being the killer of his own kind. And then Clara hammers home the point that HE IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HER OR HER CHOICES!
And so; calm, relatively content Twelve we have. ♥
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Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
(Anonymous) 2017-03-27 03:01 pm (UTC)(link)I can understand that. A *terrific* Doctor though! (glares)
I think Eleven is mine too, though I’m usually unreasonably protective of characters I cosplay as, so maybe I’m biased (I cosplay as 4 too, but I did 11 first). And I would like to point out that most of my stuff is general , 11-oriented, or interconnected in some weird way, so if you want, I’m not running out any time soon.
I have STILL not written meta about The Husbands of River Song, despite RIVER!
Might I surprise you with something there? I mean, you had made a post. Btw, I'd really like you to see a thematic trilogy of fics I wrote during Christmas which are about all the Doctors. And they do contain everything that I have written which is THoRS related. And they are the "ending", everything up until now let's say, is wrapped up, I really like them.
Really, about anything: if you like, I could just gradually post it and you read it in 2020 if you want. You don't have to go looking.
For others, obviously the Twelve/Clara co-dependency was like catnip and wholly irresistible, and I dearly wish I felt like that too.
It’s a different relationship than say, River or the Ponds, and very complicated.
(There’s this rare, very deep, utterly platonic bond, they both become Living Emotional Crutches to each other, they are too alike as personalities (tricky, control issues, sense of adventure, secretiveness and lying, selflessness), great protectiveness on the Doctor’s part and worry for his morality on Clara’s, No Social Skills Doctor who is human in her presence, Clara becoming like him and learning, saving and/or (re)making each other many times in every sense of the word, a mutual reverence/worship because of what you have done for me/what you are, they both suffer/have suffered tragedies and help each other through them etc)
But different is not bad. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I just get annoyed at people who are completely, exclusively in love with it or utterly, unreasonably hate it. And they are many.
I think you didn’t (“feel like that”), *precisely* because you focused so much on Clara’s meta and symbolic potential –and you were rewarded, so…
You’ll be too busy shouting “YES! ALL THE THINGS! SYMBOLISM! THE SONG! DINER TARDIS! WOOOO!” (exaggerating) I mean, you *will *get emotional, but not as much.
Also, am writing my own stuff (both fic & original) and tend to fall into those rabbit holes.
Again, totally understandable, and your stuff is great. If you say "just one/a small one/a fragment", or even "do nothing", I do nothing.
Search " In which the 12th Doctor is a famous philosopher".
LOL! Although there is a term for that: Spatial genetic multiplicity. ;)
That’s just what they want you to think! (puts on tinfoil hat). And this is so much more entertaining!
Seriously though, it’s uncanny. The other day I found an early 20th century Russian painting. A friend of mine found one where there’s even the fabulous red velvet coat. And we were like “clones. The only explanation is clones.” –“He is too awesome! We need MORE!”
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
Oh I am VERY fond of Twelve. And his glares!
And I would like to point out that most of my stuff is general , 11-oriented, or interconnected in some weird way, so if you want, I’m not running out any time soon.
You obviously have a great taste in cosplaying. And what is your name again on ff.net? I can find you easily enough on Deviant Art, but have no idea how to find anything there.
Really, about anything: if you like, I could just gradually post it and you read it in 2020 if you want. You don't have
to go looking.
Realistically it might be 2020... (Am just not in that mood)
But different is not bad. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I just get annoyed at people who are completely, exclusively in love with it or utterly, unreasonably hate it. And they are many.
Different is good! I like how it was a nice counterbalance/could be seen a sly criticism/do-over of Ten/Rose, delving much deeper into the issues and how unhealthy that kind of relationship could be. It just didn't hit my buttons like Eleven & his Ponds. (Also I am Pollyanna, so I find the good in everything...)
You’ll be too busy shouting “YES! ALL THE THINGS! SYMBOLISM! THE SONG! DINER TARDIS! WOOOO!” (exaggerating) I mean, you *will *get emotional, but not as much.
I can do both oh yes. ;)
Again, totally understandable, and your stuff is great. If you say "just one/a small one/a fragment", or even "do
nothing", I do nothing.
We'll see.
Seriously though, it’s uncanny. The other day I found an early 20th century Russian painting. A friend of mine found one where there’s even the fabulous red velvet coat. And we were like “clones. The only explanation is clones.” –“He is too awesome! We need MORE!”
I can't argue with that.
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
(Anonymous) 2017-03-30 12:17 am (UTC)(link)Who isn’t?! He who is not fond of 12, is not fond of LIFE!!!
You obviously have a great taste in cosplaying. And what is your name again on ff.net? I can find you easily enough on Dev, but have no idea how to find anything there.
Thank you! It mostly strikes as inspiration at 3 in the morning, completely out of nowhere, or after I have dismissed the idea half a dozen times as undoable. Think Movie!Sherlock deducing things montage but backwards: “Oh, a picture of that character…The hair! Similarity!!! Have the trousers, have basic make-up things. The shirt. Now, if I buy a thing, I can cut it in half, and then sew this jacket on it, and paint it yellow, and replace the sleeves, and wear it backwards under this huge Victorian waistcoat and if I combine it with these boots it looks exactly like that character. Elementary”.
Oh, and it’s BasiliskRules everywhere.
It might be 2020... (Am just not in that mood)
Oh well, whenever you want, I’m just saying. And yes, the mood is important.
I like how it was a nice counterbalance/could be seen a sly criticism/do-over of Ten/Rose, delving much deeper into the issues and how unhealthy that kind of relationship could be.
Oh, it definitely could be. Although I think it is different from that too, I can’t see 10/Rose as really platonic, and their co-dependency is not the same: Ten *loves* Rose -> No Rose -> miserable because, well, he loves her. Twelve and Clara are like: “OMG, my favourite person! Not here! Aaah!(hyperventilating) Need… person… to function! You adorkable mess, don’t do this to me again! (mutual protectiveness)”. The “because” doesn’t enter here, the situation just *is* (and they don’t really think about it because it works fine as it is and they are busy being adrenaline junkies.) Moreover, different personalities/character arcs/general relationship with 9 and 11 respectively. Also, I think that despite there still being serious idealization in all cases, 12 and Clara understand each other much better.
Of course, one could say this makes it worse for 10/Rose(therefore, criticize it): Because Clara/12 becomes unhealthy because they grow too similar, too attached after all they’ve been through together, they are both traumatized by things, are a bit competitive/push each other to extremes, and they both have done HUGE things for each other, which increases the importance of the one in the other’s eyes too much. *Even* if you want to say “love”, it’s not like that, just that, it’s three different combinations of affection, it’s a very complicated relationship. One could even say that some bad consequences -after all this time- are inevitable.
Whereas with 10 and Rose, you want to present a traditional romance, “true love”, let’s say, in every sense of the word. And it is often unhealthy. 10 basically builds himself for Rose. Although *she* has a choice, she doesn’t try to have any real life/relationships outside the TARDIS. They both delude themselves that this can last forever. These two could marry, the lifestyle doesn’t matter in the end; Ten *wishes* he was his clone (see the differences). But the power dynamic is very unbalanced and the dysfunctionality, the problems, the unhealthy aspect is never acknowledged.
Not judging the poor bastards, but what I’m trying to say is that the two relationships are unhealthy for different reasons. And the one that *in story* is deemed more important, higher, not-your-typical-dynamic-this-is-deeper, the thing, the love of a lifetime, is slightly more unhealthy and for less excusable reasons. And since it is that (and one can’t say that it’s just deep friendship, Tragic Bromance, co-dependency of survivors of serious shit, mentor-student, *companions* in the most perfect realization of the term etc), it doesn’t have the right to be so.
End of rant, sorry, don’t have my analyses, I can do better than that.
Basically, 10/Rose = tragic romance, star-crossed lovers, let’s hurt the Doc, GIVE THEM A HAPPY ENDING, NO, YOU GET CLONE, 10 has great !MANGER! and angst, we want to exploit it,
12/Clara = insanely deep platonic affection, you are both incredibly cute and you do great things; sorry that you’re the Hybrid too, you should split. Go both be the Doctor.
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
(Anonymous) 2017-03-30 12:19 am (UTC)(link)Who isn’t?! He who is not fond of 12, is not fond of LIFE!!!
You obviously have a great taste in cosplaying. And what is your name again on ff? I can find you easily enough on Dev, but have no idea how to find anything there.
Thank you! It mostly strikes as inspiration at 3 in the morning, completely out of nowhere, or after I have dismissed the idea half a dozen times as undoable. Think Movie!Sherlock deducing things montage but backwards: “Oh, a picture of that character…The hair! Similarity!!! Have the trousers, have basic make-up things. The shirt. Now, if I buy a thing, I can cut it in half, and then sew this jacket on it, and paint it yellow, and replace the sleeves, and wear it backwards under this huge Victorian waistcoat and if I combine it with these boots it looks exactly like that character. Elementary”.
Oh, and it’s BasiliskRules everywhere.
It might be 2020... (Am just not in that mood)
Oh well, whenever you want, I’m just saying. And yes, the mood is important.
I like how it was a nice counterbalance/could be seen a sly criticism/do-over of Ten/Rose, delving much deeper into the issues and how unhealthy that kind of relationship could be.
Oh, it definitely could be. Although I think it is different from that too, I can’t see 10/Rose as really platonic, and their co-dependency is not the same: Ten *loves* Rose -> No Rose -> miserable because, well, he loves her. Twelve and Clara are like: “OMG, my favourite person! Not here! Aaah!(hyperventilating) Need… person… to function! You adorkable mess, don’t do this to me again! (mutual protectiveness)”. The “because” doesn’t enter here, the situation just *is* (and they don’t really think about it because it works fine as it is and they are busy being adrenaline junkies.) Moreover, different personalities/character arcs/general relationship with 9 and 11 respectively. Also, I think that despite there still being serious idealization in all cases, 12 and Clara understand each other much better.
Of course, one could say this makes it worse for 10/Rose(therefore, criticize it): Because Clara/12 becomes unhealthy because they grow too similar, too attached after all they’ve been through together, they are both traumatized by things, are a bit competitive/push each other to extremes, and they both have done HUGE things for each other, which increases the importance of the one in the other’s eyes too much. *Even* if you want to say “love”, it’s not like that, just that, it’s three different combinations of affection, it’s a very complicated relationship. One could even say that some bad consequences -after all this time- are inevitable.
Whereas with 10 and Rose, you want to present a traditional romance, “true love”, let’s say, in every sense of the word. And it is often unhealthy. 10 basically builds himself for Rose. Although *she* has a choice, she doesn’t try to have any real life/relationships outside the TARDIS. They both delude themselves that this can last forever. These two could marry, the lifestyle doesn’t matter in the end; Ten *wishes* he was his clone (see the differences). But the power dynamic is very unbalanced and the dysfunctionality, the problems, the unhealthy aspect is never acknowledged.
Not judging the poor bastards, but what I’m trying to say is that the two relationships are unhealthy for different reasons. And the one that *in story* is deemed more important, higher, not-your-typical-dynamic-this-is-deeper, the thing, the love of a lifetime, is slightly more unhealthy and for less excusable reasons. And since it is that (and one can’t say that it’s just deep friendship, Tragic Bromance, co-dependency of survivors of serious shit, mentor-student, *companions* in the most perfect realization of the term etc), it doesn’t have the right to be so.
End of rant, sorry, don’t have my analyses, I can do better than that.
Basically, 10/Rose = tragic romance, star-crossed lovers, let’s hurt the Doc, GIVE THEM A HAPPY ENDING, NO, YOU GET CLONE, 10 has great !MANGER! and angst, we want to exploit it,
12/Clara = insanely deep platonic affection, you are both incredibly cute and you do great things; sorry that you’re the Hybrid too, you should split. Go both be the Doctor.
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
Dude!!
Think Movie!Sherlock deducing things montage but backwards
That is a great mental image.
Oh well, whenever you want, I’m just saying. And yes, the mood is important.
Also there is never enough time and I am TRYING to write... /o\ Why does fandom not pay?
But the power dynamic is very unbalanced and the dysfunctionality, the problems, the unhealthy aspect is never acknowledged.
Lots of lovely thoughts on both relationships, but this is where you touch on the most important part (for me) - Ten/Rose *isn't* healthy, but it's held up as Twu Luw, and that's unfortunate. Don't get me wrong, I find it interesting, and have written it (TenToo/Rose mostly, because you have more interesting things to play with then). But RTD often has a tendency to be a bit too rose-tinted about these things.
End of rant, sorry, don’t have my analyses, I can do better than that.
Oh don't apologise, it was very good!!
Basically, 10/Rose
There is the PERFECT vid, but - I have just realised - the LJer has deleted their LJ D: D: D: and I don't think it's on youtube... /o\ I'll try to upload it for you, hang on. HERE YOU GO! It's worth watching, trust me. Except if you're epileptic - there is a LOT of flashing imagery.
Basically, 10/Rose
Pompeii by
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
(Anonymous) 2017-04-09 03:45 pm (UTC)(link)PREACH
Lots of lovely thoughts on both relationships, but this is where you touch on the most important part (for me) - Ten/Rose *isn't* healthy, but it's held up as Twu Luw, and that's unfortunate. Don't get me wrong, I find it interesting. But RTD often has a tendency to be a bit too rose-tinted about these things.
(wink) Therefore, I actually think Doctor/River is Moffat’s excellent response. My OTP of OTPs, no question about it; but I mean (okay, in general terms, I don’t agree completely, it’s more complicated than that, and most importantly it develops and grows), as a random person on the Internet put it: “I appreciate River and the Doctor's relationship because it is textually acknowledged to be dysfunctional. Even though River may sometimes romanticize their relationship it is always in the context that we are reminded how young she is at that point in their timeline and that she is a fairly messed up person. It's about two seriously messed up people trying to work for something functional rather than something idyllic.”
Oh don't apologise, it was very good!!
I’m a perfectionist who among many other things, lost about 40 pages of rambling analyses and geek-notes in the Great Computer Crash of late 2016 and is in the process of painstakingly but successfully reconstructing it –okay, at least the vital bits, we have an OCPD to fight; in some respects the crash was a *good* thing.
What I’m trying to say is, thank you; but I’m the person who felt the need to write a passionate two-page essay simply to refute a DW-novice-mum’s outrageous claim that 10 and 11 were not that different (btw, if interested, I thankfully still have that, do tell). And given our respective Who-experience, that’s a bit like finding a wasp in your room and bringing out the flamethrower –which I’d totally do, I’m excessive like that and fuck insects.
First vid: Cool, a bit too much flashing even for a non-epileptic. It made me realise and/or reaffirm two things:
1) 9/ROSE IS THE SHIT, OMG! Those cute motherfuckers! My babies! I mean, no offence to 10, and I’m glad Rose got her happy ending with 10.2, but Nine/Rose is much more interesting to watch.
I actually think the *main* problem with 10/Rose is that 10 is usually a more entertaining Doctor with Donna, or Martha, or even just when he’s a lonely emo mess because he misses Rose. David Tennant totally sells that he adores her, but he is far more able to do so and be generally engaging when they are apart. Like, he is just very good at being sad; the audience is like “aww, this must have meant a lot to him. Look at the poor bastard”. The problem is that Rose and their chemistry is good, but I often don’t feel like I’m watching THE DOCTOR (while 9/Rose could do that), and that while it’s not bad by any means, it should be *better* than ANGSTY!10, and in my opinion, it isn’t.
2) YES, YES, YES, FUCK YES, Muse and DW. I’ve already sent you my favourite one. And put the word out, if a Whovian wants to gain my everlasting gratitude, s/he justs needs to do one thing: Make a Series 6 vid with “Take a Bow”. Because that is *totally* what is playing in 11’s head throughout it, increasing in volume and reaching its peak in “The God Complex”, and you can’t convince me otherwise.
And *then* do a counterpoint with TWoRS and David Bowie’s “Rock and Roll Suicide”. WHO’S WITH ME?
Second vid: STANDING FUCKING OVATION, WOOOOOO!!!!
In the faves asap. Do you know how difficult it is to find good 12 vids, let alone good 12 and Clara vids? But even if it wasn’t, this still would have been bloody brilliant. And of course ALL the connections :) You are absolutely right to love it to pieces.
I feel like I should return the favour, somehow reward you, but I think you’ve already watched “The Dead Rory Sketch” and “The Big Whobowski”.
(In case you haven’t though, first results you get on google, that’s them, enjoy).
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
This, very much. (And whilst Ten/Rose never did much for me, I am very fond of - and have written - Rose/TenToo fic. Because suddenly there is lots of complexity.)
lost about 40 pages of rambling analyses and geek-notes in the Great Computer Crash of late 2016 and is in the process of painstakingly but successfully reconstructing it
:O oh noes!!!
but I’m the person who felt the need to write a passionate two-page essay simply to refute a DW-novice-mum’s outrageous claim that 10 and 11 were not that different
I literally have an icon regarding how different they are!! *points* And many essays. :)
9/ROSE IS THE SHIT, OMG!
<3
I actually think the *main* problem with 10/Rose is that 10 is usually a more entertaining Doctor with Donna, or Martha, or even just when he’s a lonely emo mess because he misses Rose.
People being happy & in love are not exciting to watch. And re. emo!Ten, then he always reminds me of Alexis Denisof as Wesley (on Angel), and this particular description from a review:
'I can't believe I forgot how Denisof as Wesley can stand there and exude pain. It's like a superpower.'
Make a Series 6 vid with “Take a Bow”
Oh oh oh. I need to introduce you to Fear Me, I Killed All Of Them, which is that but much wider in scope. I even wrote meta about it. Still gives me shivers in all the best ways.
Second vid: STANDING FUCKING OVATION, WOOOOOO!!!! You are absolutely right to love it to pieces.
I wish I could beta more vids, it's *fascinating*. Debating which clips go where, what they symbolise, how it'll flow... Pure joy. (Her best ever vid is Never Look Away which is quite simply a masterpiece.
Am now off to double check if I've watched the vids you recommend. :)
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
(Anonymous) 2017-04-18 10:26 pm (UTC)(link):O oh noes!!!
Well, it’s not that bad now. Things that were mine can be rewritten; things that were not can be found. It just takes time. And come on, what did you expect from 2016?
I literally have an icon regarding how different they are!! *points* And many essays.
I love that icon! (and your essays)
One upside of the aforementioned disaster was me going through the saved ones (to try and remember better what was lost), and improving them. And one particular small difference struck me regarding 10-11, which I had not thought of before: They very ironically snap in opposite ways when it comes to their god complex. I may be overgeneralising a bit, but:
10 is: “I shall punish evil-doers. Horribly so. Back off. You get one chance. Sorry, I really don’t like it, but.” And then in WoM he’s like “MUST SAVE PEOPLE. Live, damn you”.
11 is: “MUST SAVE PEOPLE. MUST SAVE ALL THE PEOPLE. If someone, ANYONE dies, it’s my fault”. And then whenever he snaps, he’s like “DIE, SCUM. Finally, someone I can hate without feeling like a hypocrite. You are *guiltier*. Wow, I have the moral high ground, I have the *right* to do this. I… I think I’m enjoying this. Fuck.”
People being happy & in love are not exciting to watch.
Well, that’s a bit of an overgeneralization I think, it depends on what said people are doing. I understand your point, it *is* easier to make misery interesting to watch. But whoever was bored of Two, I ask you! I don’t think anyone was less interested in 11 and the Ponds or River in the “happy episodes”, let’s say; and even though sad! or lonely!11 is played perfectly by Matt Smith and needs all the hugs, I never said “oh, NOW we’re talking, finally, the Doctor, excitement!” What I’m trying to say is that the state of the characters generally influenced the *mood*, not our level of interest; happy and in love or not, 11 was equally engaging. And he didn’t need to lose people for us to appreciate them and their connection through his level of grief, because we already did so.
(Of course, Moffat’s adherence to the Reverse Don Bluth Principle and his Earn Your Happy Ending tendencies do help: he only makes the characters happy after putting them through absolute hell, so of course we accept it.)
'I can't believe I forgot how Denisof as Wesley can stand there and exude pain. It's like a superpower.'
I’ll take your word for it, but that is also the most perfect description of David Tennant I have ever heard.
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
(Anonymous) 2017-04-19 02:19 am (UTC)(link)I need to introduce you to Fear Me, I Killed All of Them, which is that but much wider in scope. Still gives me shivers in all the best ways.
Well, the narrow scope was kind of the point with this idea because I really like how Series 6 was built. As I put it in my “Examining the Doctor’s faith” analysis:
“It’s almost funny. I mean, either the Silence have an amazing sense of timing with Lake Silencio or Fate suddenly really, really hates him and wants to have fun. The universe is doing half the job in Series 6 if you think about it. It’s like everything is conspiring to push him to the brink and accept his doom.
One should basically just clap and go: “Yes, please do continue showing the incredibly old, self-loathing, guilt-ridden, emotionally unstable mess of an alien that he totally sucks, destroys everything, brings death and misery wherever he goes and that if he doesn’t die the universe will blow up. Absolutely nothing wrong here, we’re all ears, having a ball”.
Still, very nice video (and meta). Unfortunately, not really my cup of tea, due to an oversaturation of DW vids with 30 Seconds to Mars songs, (especially this one) and a general indifference towards the band. But still, very nice construction, and eerily similar to a scene from “Forgiven” (I have fics; wish I could make vids, but even so, great minds and all that):
“Ah Sun-flower! weary of time,
Who countest the steps of the Sun:
Seeking after that sweet golden clime
Where the traveler’s journey is done.”
He closes the book – “Songs of Innocence and of Experience” by William Blake - sets it aside and settles back in his chair with a sigh, chin resting on his tangled fingers.
“I can explain. Tell them why I had to”.
“You want to be forgiven”.
(“Fear me; I’ve killed all of them”.
“You're turning me into you!”
“And some, not many but, some died. Not them. Not them, Brian. Never them.”
“Come along Pond. Please”.)
Slowly, almost reverently, he takes off the glasses and places them carefully on the grey, smooth surface of the console.
“Don’t we all?”
(And since I’ve gone off and started talking about my stuff again, I might as well go all the way: You know how many people make playlists about shows? Phoenix-Dragon has many nice ones. This is what I call the “Reverse Fantasia Project”.
Make a playlist, each song/general music piece represents/is the theme of a New Who episode. No DW music.
In progress, varying degrees of seriousness, many different criteria for choosing something: it might be the theme or subject. The lyrics. The allusions made. Parallels in story. The title. The melody. Perhaps the rhythm. If it is famous or symbolic, why. All the above at the same time.As long as something creates a connection in the intertextual mind!
Examples so far include –to give you an understanding:
Rose-Muse, Knights of Cydonia
The Parting of the Ways- The Hanging Tree
Human Nature- Peter Gabriel, Disturbed
Family of Blood- All I ever Wanted, piano version
Blink- Secret of Survival, The Wind in the Willows
Silence in the Library- Fear of the Dark, Iron Maiden
The End of Time, P.1 – Muse, Survival
Amy’s Choice- The Mind of the Bat, Miracle of Sound
The Big Bang- The Ecstasy of Gold/ The Power of Love, Huey Lewis and the News
A Christmas Carol- The Grand Finale (Edward Scissorhands soundtrack)
Day of the Moon- Muse, Uprising
Let’s Kill Hitler- Golden Earring, When The Lady Smiles
Asylum of the Daleks- Dario Marianelli, The dominoes fall
The Night of the Doctor- Basil Poledouris, The Barricades
The Day of the Doctor- The White Tree, LOTR soundtrack
The Time of the Doctor- Time (Inception)
Time Heist- Misirlou, Pulp Fiction
Flatline- You Know My Name, Chris Cornel
Hell Bent- Ennio Morricone, The Demise of Barbara and the Return of Joe
At some point in the far future there will be a complete list with links (and possibly short explanations)! Uploaded on Dev! Some day.)
I wish I could beta more vids, it's *fascinating*.
Well, after seeing this one I wish that too!
Am now off to double check if I've watched the vids you recommend.
So? Had you?
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
(Anonymous) 2017-04-19 06:31 am (UTC)(link)I need to introduce you to Fear Me, I Killed All of Them, which is that but much wider in scope. Still gives me shivers in all the best ways.
Well, the narrow scope was kind of the point with this idea because I really like how Series 6 was built. As I put it in my “Examining the Doctor’s faith” analysis:
“It’s almost funny. I mean, either the Silence have an amazing sense of timing with Lake Silencio or Fate suddenly really, really hates him and wants to have fun. The universe is doing half the job in Series 6 if you think about it. It’s like everything is conspiring to push him to the brink and accept his doom.
One should basically just clap and go: “Yes, please do continue showing the incredibly old, self-loathing, guilt-ridden, emotionally unstable mess of an alien that he totally sucks, destroys everything, brings death and misery wherever he goes and that if he doesn’t die the universe will blow up. Absolutely nothing wrong here, we’re all ears, having a ball”.
Still, very nice video (and meta). Unfortunately, not really my cup of tea, due to an oversaturation of DW vids with 30 Seconds to Mars songs, (especially this one) and a general indifference towards the band. But still, very nice construction, and eerily similar to a scene from “Forgiven” (I have fics; wish I could make vids, but even so, great minds and all that):
“Ah Sun-flower! weary of time,
Who countest the steps of the Sun:
Seeking after that sweet golden clime
Where the traveler’s journey is done.”
He closes the book – “Songs of Innocence and of Experience” by William Blake - sets it aside and settles back in his chair with a sigh, chin resting on his tangled fingers.
“I can explain. Tell them why I had to”.
“You want to be forgiven”.
(“Fear me; I’ve killed all of them”.
“You're turning me into you!”
“And some, not many but, some died. Not them. Not them, Brian. Never them.”
“Come along Pond. Please”.)
Slowly, almost reverently, he takes off the glasses and places them carefully on the grey, smooth surface of the console.
“Don’t we all?”
(And since I’ve gone off and started talking about my stuff again, I might as well go all the way, and explain my thought process behind that: You know how many people make playlists about shows? Phoenix-Dragon has many nice ones. This is what I call the “Reverse Fantasia Project”.
Make a playlist, each song/general music piece represents/is the theme of a New Who episode. No DW music.
In progress, varying degrees of seriousness, many different criteria for choosing something: it might be the theme or subject. The lyrics. The allusions made. Parallels in story. The title. The melody. Perhaps the rhythm. If it is famous or symbolic, why. All the above at the same time.As long as something creates a connection in the intertextual mind!
Examples so far include –to give you an understanding:
Rose-Muse, Knights of Cydonia
The Parting of the Ways- The Hanging Tree
Human Nature- Peter Gabriel, Disturbed
Family of Blood- All I ever Wanted, piano version
Blink- Secret of Survival, The Wind in the Willows
Silence in the Library- Fear of the Dark, Iron Maiden
The End of Time, P.1 – Muse, Survival
Amy’s Choice- The Mind of the Bat, Miracle of Sound
The Big Bang- The Ecstasy of Gold/ The Power of Love, Huey Lewis and the News
A Christmas Carol- The Grand Finale (Edward Scissorhands soundtrack)
Day of the Moon- Muse, Uprising
Let’s Kill Hitler- Golden Earring, When The Lady Smiles
Asylum of the Daleks- Dario Marianelli, The dominoes fall
The Night of the Doctor- Basil Poledouris, The Barricades
The Day of the Doctor- The White Tree, LOTR soundtrack
The Time of the Doctor- Time (Inception)
Time Heist- Misirlou, Pulp Fiction
Flatline- You Know My Name, Chris Cornel
Hell Bent- Ennio Morricone, The Demise of Barbara and the Return of Joe
At some point in the far future there will be a complete list with links (and possibly short explanations)! Uploaded on Dev! Some day.)
I wish I could beta more vids, it's *fascinating*.
Well, after seeing this one I wish that too!
Am now off to double check if I've watched the vids you recommend.
So? Had you?
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
(Anonymous) 2017-04-19 06:32 am (UTC)(link)I need to introduce you to Fear Me, I Killed All of Them, which is that but much wider in scope. Still gives me shivers in all the best ways.
Well, the narrow scope was kind of the point with this idea because I really like how Series 6 was built. As I put it in my “Examining the Doctor’s faith” analysis:
“It’s almost funny. I mean, either the Silence have an amazing sense of timing with Lake Silencio or Fate suddenly really, really hates him and wants to have fun. The universe is doing half the job in Series 6 if you think about it. It’s like everything is conspiring to push him to the brink and accept his doom.
One should basically just clap and go: “Yes, please do continue showing the incredibly old, self-loathing, guilt-ridden, emotionally unstable mess of an alien that he totally sucks, destroys everything, brings death and misery wherever he goes and that if he doesn’t die the universe will blow up. Absolutely nothing wrong here, we’re all ears, having a ball”.
Still, very nice video (and meta). Unfortunately, not really my cup of tea, due to an oversaturation of DW vids with 30 Seconds to Mars songs, (especially this one) and a general indifference towards the band. But still, very nice construction, and eerily similar to a scene from “Forgiven” (I have fics; wish I could make vids, but even so, great minds and all that):
“Ah Sun-flower! weary of time,
Who countest the steps of the Sun:
Seeking after that sweet golden clime
Where the traveler’s journey is done.”
He closes the book – “Songs of Innocence and of Experience” by William Blake - sets it aside and settles back in his chair with a sigh, chin resting on his tangled fingers.
“I can explain. Tell them why I had to”.
“You want to be forgiven”.
(“Fear me; I’ve killed all of them”.
“You're turning me into you!”
“And some, not many but, some died. Not them. Not them, Brian. Never them.”
“Come along Pond. Please”.)
Slowly, almost reverently, he takes off the glasses and places them carefully on the grey, smooth surface of the console.
“Don’t we all?”
I wish I could beta more vids, it's *fascinating*.
Well, after seeing this one I wish that too!
Am now off to double check if I've watched the vids you recommend.
So? Had you?
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
Oh I can see that. However I do love multi-Doctor vids that *work*, so I had to rec it. :)
“It’s almost funny. I mean, either the Silence have an amazing sense of timing with Lake Silencio or Fate suddenly really, really hates him and wants to have fun. The universe is doing half the job in Series 6 if you think about it. It’s like everything is conspiring to push him to the brink and accept his doom.
Hmmm. Well, it's the chickens coming home to roost. Partly he's paying for Ten's hubris, but also the Silence are the over-arching nemesis for all of Eleven's era (see the crack) - and S6 is the central part, obviously.
(I have fics; wish I could make vids, but even so, great minds and all that)
You and me both. And thank you for sharing.
So? Had you?
I had not, and am now greatly indebted to you good sir. The Big Whobowski looks like it could be better than the actual movie, and The Dead Rory Sketch made me laugh entirely too loud. I shall have to share it with my girls later one. :D
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
(Anonymous) 2017-04-30 11:33 am (UTC)(link):D Well, I like to share; I hope they liked it too. And I too would totally watch a movie-long version of The Big Whobowski.
In general, Bob Mitsch has incredibly funny videos. Have a browse if you find the time. I really loved the DW parody of They Live.
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
(Anonymous) 2017-09-01 06:28 pm (UTC)(link)Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
Good point.
I love that icon! (and your essays)
:D
They very ironically snap in opposite ways when it comes to their god complex. I may be overgeneralising a bit, but:
I may have to come back to this, but the thing I was reminded of was a discussion back in the day on
Well, that’s a bit of an overgeneralization I think, it depends on what said people are doing.
Obviously it's an overgeneralisation - I was thinking of people who are in love, and thus focus mostly on each other. Rather than friends who run around having adventures together.
I’ll take your word for it, but that is also the most perfect description of David Tennant I have ever heard.
Which is why I brought it up. Indeed I have a whole post.
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
(Anonymous) 2017-04-30 01:50 pm (UTC)(link)Yes, you had brought this up. Obviously, their differences in this matter and many others can be a result of character development, not just random personality change because of regeneration (For instance, though other factors were at play too, 11 reacts much better to instances of Cloning Blues than 10 did). If he is indeed the same man, his previous mindsets and experiences *have* to shape the way he changes and acts.
Interestingly, I agree with you, but I think that even though 11 *is* calmer, his guilt is *deeper*, he is the most guilt-ridden of all the Doctors (Just my personal view). Because:
a) he is OCD –trust me, he is- so he is “okay” and *has* to be in control, thus all the bad stuff is usually hidden under the surface and left to increase and go haywire,
b) naturally, he gets older and the guilt accumulates,
c) he is constantly confronted -like you said, in part paying for 10’s hubris- with people who are terrified of him and his reputation (See “Why would a Time Lord be a weapon?”) ,
d) in contrast to 10, he earnestly tries to move on and is constantly thwarted and reminded of the Time War,
e) his calmer state of mind (and memory of the EoT confrontation) allows him to not think in absolutes: 10 was either “it was the best place ever, woe is me”, total nostalgia goggles *or* “they were all monsters, I *had* to stop them”. So now I think he sees the picture as it really is, aka, “Well, I really did *have* to do it because the higher-ups would have destroyed the universe. Still. Genocide. Of my own planet. Lots of children. Please kill me.” To quote Ursula Le Guin, “For you’ve done what you had to do, and it was not right”.
f) Ironically, I think that this very change in perspective that allows him to at least not think about it all the time, adds more guilt by widening his point of view. I mean yes, of course that is the big thing, but he is no more tunnel-vision about it. So now he goes “Oh. Wait. There was that other planet I ruined. And those species I destroyed because I had no choice. And all those times I was a dick because I was thinking about the War, and maybe I was biased, and did I choose correctly because of that? Oh, and that thing *before* the War, how the hell did I forget that, why didn’t I realise how horrible it was. And all those people who died because I made a mistake. Come to think of it, all those people who died just because I happened to be near. And all those people I personally ruined. Oh my God, Rose, and Martha, and Donna. And now I’m ruining the Ponds. And River. And you know, I really am a terrible person. And here’s another Sadistic Choice I have to make. Yay, more guilt. And I can’t save everyone. And I killed that alien guy. And- You know, maybe the Silence had a point after all.”
So yeah, thank God and Moffat for taking pity on him, and giving him an understanding family and friends, at least *some* happy endings, TDoTD, and a perfect regeneration episode.
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
(Anonymous) 2017-04-30 02:23 pm (UTC)(link)Well, I did include people who are in love: Amy and Rory are. The Doctor and River are. Though I suppose you could say that they have a *family* dynamic, even before they discover that they are, so it’s different.
But even so, I think 11 has an important advantage there because of the way he’s written –and do I think you can write the Doctor in love just fine, no matter what some people say. (Or he gets better episodes, I don’t know, I need to rewatch Series 2. But he does, doesn’t he?) I equally see the Doctor in an episode with Clara or a River-heavy one. When he is alone, it is equally heartbreaking with 10 but I don’t *want* him to stay that way, that doesn’t make him more interesting to watch. (And again, also, he didn’t need to lose people for us to *really* appreciate them and their connection through his level of grief, because we already did so; which I think is important.)
What I’m trying to say is that I felt an increased “Doctorishness” when 10 wasn’t with Rose, perhaps due to how overtly human/traditional hero he tried to be. I mean, he even gets his catchphrase in “Doomsday” and his cool action theme in Series 3.
And then there’s the whole “I won’t say I’m in love” aspect –for good, valid, character-based reasons, but still– that keeps their relationship from developing. People who you feel *want* to get married, feed each other chocolates, and shag their collective brains out, but are forced to stay in a stasis because the writing doesn’t know what else to do with them and/or wants tragedy for the sake of tragedy (because 10 *needs* !ANGST! ) are less engaging to watch.
Again, I may be biased because of cosplay and I’m probably too harsh on the poor babies now (Genuinely happy 10 is rare, I know I will go “aww”). Just see this as a subjective, personal view. But I mostly feel it’s a writing thing anyway, like I said: the “I won’t say I’m in love” stasis, the underlying unequal power dynamic… That’s why 10.2/Rose opens up so many possibilities. As a great fic puts it: “It’s not perfect. But in a way it’s better than perfect, because finally it’s real.”
And also about writing issues, I think you can have people who are in love; but you have to either give them huge obstacles to overcome, make them unhappy for other reasons, or give them very, very interesting things to do. I mean everyone and their mother (literally!) was already shipping 11/River by the Series 5 finale, and the flirting was over 9000; but we have this mysterious box that’s been hyped up to high heaven, a bajillion hostile armies on our heads, and all of existence and a wedding to save. You have to take drugs to not get invested to “watching Hitchcock” levels.
And like I said, Moffat allows our poor favourite bastards to occasionally Earn Their Happy Ending and applies copious amounts of the Reverse Don Bluth Principle. So that helps, I think.
(And sorry for the Walls of Text.)
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
Yes, thissss. I talk about this often wrt couples and whether the reason they aren't together is due to character issues or plot issues. Look at Romeo & Juliet - if their families didn't happen to be mortal enemies, they'd just get married and be happy. And it's the same thing with Ten & Rose - if it wasn't because he was a Time Lord, they'd either get married or break up (in spectacular fashion, probably). I much prefer couples where the issues are inherent to *them*. Where they argue and fight and gain a better understanding of each other, and it's not 'happily ever after' but it's complex and complicated. (See Doctor/River. Or Buffy/Spike. Or any of my other OTPs.) Although Spuffy is probably the most divisive. See icon. :)
As a great fic puts it: “It’s not perfect. But in a way it’s better than perfect, because finally it’s real.”
Yes, perfectly put.
I mean everyone and their mother (literally!) was already shipping 11/River by the Series 5 finale, and the flirting was over 9000; but we have this mysterious box that’s been hyped up to high heaven, a bajillion hostile armies on our heads, and all of existence and a wedding to save. You have to take drugs to not get invested to “watching Hitchcock” levels.
LOL. Although I'm not sure about 'everyone'. I used to have a 'River fan. No apologies' icon. And it was relevant. People did. not. like. her. or they thought she was the Rani or the Master or something else.
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
(Anonymous) 2017-05-01 05:34 pm (UTC)(link)Well, from what I can tell, River *still* is a divisive character. Although I do think that the characters/actors/plots/things that don’t divide the DW fandom can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and I’m being generous.
And now that you mentioned it, GOOD GOD. What is it with the Rani fans?! Why does she have so many, anyway? Every new character is ALWAYS the Rani until proven otherwise! Okay, we all have our faves, but this is not a reasonable or healthy way to approach fiction! Oh well :)
(I’ll get back to you on “Swift Musings” when I get the time -because probable huge explanation about my opinion, why I *will* still stick with it, but also one or two interesting things I hadn’t noticed, were I to go with yours.)
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
Very true. Although there was a lot of resentment back in the day (the Library episodes) when she waltzed in & claimed the Doctor as HERS! (Didn't she know that the Doctor belonged to ROSE? they yelled...) Ahem. ;)
And now that you mentioned it, GOOD GOD. What is it with the Rani fans?! Why does she have so many, anyway? Every new character is ALWAYS the Rani until proven otherwise! Okay, we all have our faves, but this is not a reasonable or healthy way to approach fiction! Oh well :)
Well, how do we know that BILL isn't the Rani, eh? She's science-y and all that. MAYBE THERE IS A FOB WATCH IN HER DRAWERS!!
(I’ll get back to you on “Swift Musings” when I get the time -because probable huge explanation about my opinion, why I *will* still stick with it, but also one or two interesting things I hadn’t noticed, were I to go with yours.)
If we agreed on everything, life would be boring. :)
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
It's also (IMHO) the way each regeneration is a reaction against the previous one. See Five & Six for the ultimate example. Five is the softest of the Doctors. Six is the closest to being a psychopath. So a lot of Eleven is a reaction against Ten's problematic issues.
Interestingly, I agree with you, but I think that even though 11 *is* calmer, his guilt is *deeper*, he is the most guilt-ridden of all the Doctors (Just my personal view).
No arguing with that! Young face, old soul. As Matt Smith said:
"That's what interests me about The Doctor because, actually, look at the blood on the man's hands... Which is why I think he has to make silly jokes and wear a fez. Because if he didn't, he'd hang himself."
Twelve can be more outwardly gruff, because he's lost that massive burden of being the killer of his own kind. And then Clara hammers home the point that HE IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HER OR HER CHOICES!
And so; calm, relatively content Twelve we have. ♥