Obviously it's an overgeneralisation - I was thinking of people who are in love, and thus focus mostly on each other. Rather than friends who run around having adventures together. Well, I did include people who are in love: Amy and Rory are. The Doctor and River are. Though I suppose you could say that they have a *family* dynamic, even before they discover that they are, so it’s different. But even so, I think 11 has an important advantage there because of the way he’s written –and do I think you can write the Doctor in love just fine, no matter what some people say. (Or he gets better episodes, I don’t know, I need to rewatch Series 2. But he does, doesn’t he?) I equally see the Doctor in an episode with Clara or a River-heavy one. When he is alone, it is equally heartbreaking with 10 but I don’t *want* him to stay that way, that doesn’t make him more interesting to watch. (And again, also, he didn’t need to lose people for us to *really* appreciate them and their connection through his level of grief, because we already did so; which I think is important.) What I’m trying to say is that I felt an increased “Doctorishness” when 10 wasn’t with Rose, perhaps due to how overtly human/traditional hero he tried to be. I mean, he even gets his catchphrase in “Doomsday” and his cool action theme in Series 3. And then there’s the whole “I won’t say I’m in love” aspect –for good, valid, character-based reasons, but still– that keeps their relationship from developing. People who you feel *want* to get married, feed each other chocolates, and shag their collective brains out, but are forced to stay in a stasis because the writing doesn’t know what else to do with them and/or wants tragedy for the sake of tragedy (because 10 *needs* !ANGST! ) are less engaging to watch.
Again, I may be biased because of cosplay and I’m probably too harsh on the poor babies now (Genuinely happy 10 is rare, I know I will go “aww”). Just see this as a subjective, personal view. But I mostly feel it’s a writing thing anyway, like I said: the “I won’t say I’m in love” stasis, the underlying unequal power dynamic… That’s why 10.2/Rose opens up so many possibilities. As a great fic puts it: “It’s not perfect. But in a way it’s better than perfect, because finally it’s real.” And also about writing issues, I think you can have people who are in love; but you have to either give them huge obstacles to overcome, make them unhappy for other reasons, or give them very, very interesting things to do. I mean everyone and their mother (literally!) was already shipping 11/River by the Series 5 finale, and the flirting was over 9000; but we have this mysterious box that’s been hyped up to high heaven, a bajillion hostile armies on our heads, and all of existence and a wedding to save. You have to take drugs to not get invested to “watching Hitchcock” levels. And like I said, Moffat allows our poor favourite bastards to occasionally Earn Their Happy Ending and applies copious amounts of the Reverse Don Bluth Principle. So that helps, I think.
And then there’s the whole “I won’t say I’m in love” aspect –for good, valid, character-based reasons, but still– that keeps their relationship from developing. People who you feel *want* to get married, feed each other chocolates, and shag their collective brains out, but are forced to stay in a stasis because the writing doesn’t know what else to do with them and/or wants tragedy for the sake of tragedy (because 10 *needs* !ANGST! ) are less engaging to watch. Yes, thissss. I talk about this often wrt couples and whether the reason they aren't together is due to character issues or plot issues. Look at Romeo & Juliet - if their families didn't happen to be mortal enemies, they'd just get married and be happy. And it's the same thing with Ten & Rose - if it wasn't because he was a Time Lord, they'd either get married or break up (in spectacular fashion, probably). I much prefer couples where the issues are inherent to *them*. Where they argue and fight and gain a better understanding of each other, and it's not 'happily ever after' but it's complex and complicated. (See Doctor/River. Or Buffy/Spike. Or any of my other OTPs.) Although Spuffy is probably the most divisive. See icon. :)
As a great fic puts it: “It’s not perfect. But in a way it’s better than perfect, because finally it’s real.” Yes, perfectly put.
I mean everyone and their mother (literally!) was already shipping 11/River by the Series 5 finale, and the flirting was over 9000; but we have this mysterious box that’s been hyped up to high heaven, a bajillion hostile armies on our heads, and all of existence and a wedding to save. You have to take drugs to not get invested to “watching Hitchcock” levels. LOL. Although I'm not sure about 'everyone'. I used to have a 'River fan. No apologies' icon. And it was relevant. People did. not. like. her. or they thought she was the Rani or the Master or something else.
LOL. Although I'm not sure about 'everyone'. I used to have a 'River fan. No apologies' icon. And it was relevant. People did. not. like. her. or they thought she was the Rani or the Master or something else. Well, from what I can tell, River *still* is a divisive character. Although I do think that the characters/actors/plots/things that don’t divide the DW fandom can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and I’m being generous.
And now that you mentioned it, GOOD GOD. What is it with the Rani fans?! Why does she have so many, anyway? Every new character is ALWAYS the Rani until proven otherwise! Okay, we all have our faves, but this is not a reasonable or healthy way to approach fiction! Oh well :)
(I’ll get back to you on “Swift Musings” when I get the time -because probable huge explanation about my opinion, why I *will* still stick with it, but also one or two interesting things I hadn’t noticed, were I to go with yours.)
Well, from what I can tell, River *still* is a divisive character. Although I do think that the characters/actors/plots/things that don’t divide the DW fandom can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and I’m being generous. Very true. Although there was a lot of resentment back in the day (the Library episodes) when she waltzed in & claimed the Doctor as HERS! (Didn't she know that the Doctor belonged to ROSE? they yelled...) Ahem. ;)
And now that you mentioned it, GOOD GOD. What is it with the Rani fans?! Why does she have so many, anyway? Every new character is ALWAYS the Rani until proven otherwise! Okay, we all have our faves, but this is not a reasonable or healthy way to approach fiction! Oh well :) Well, how do we know that BILL isn't the Rani, eh? She's science-y and all that. MAYBE THERE IS A FOB WATCH IN HER DRAWERS!!
(I’ll get back to you on “Swift Musings” when I get the time -because probable huge explanation about my opinion, why I *will* still stick with it, but also one or two interesting things I hadn’t noticed, were I to go with yours.) If we agreed on everything, life would be boring. :)
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
(Anonymous) 2017-04-30 02:23 pm (UTC)(link)Well, I did include people who are in love: Amy and Rory are. The Doctor and River are. Though I suppose you could say that they have a *family* dynamic, even before they discover that they are, so it’s different.
But even so, I think 11 has an important advantage there because of the way he’s written –and do I think you can write the Doctor in love just fine, no matter what some people say. (Or he gets better episodes, I don’t know, I need to rewatch Series 2. But he does, doesn’t he?) I equally see the Doctor in an episode with Clara or a River-heavy one. When he is alone, it is equally heartbreaking with 10 but I don’t *want* him to stay that way, that doesn’t make him more interesting to watch. (And again, also, he didn’t need to lose people for us to *really* appreciate them and their connection through his level of grief, because we already did so; which I think is important.)
What I’m trying to say is that I felt an increased “Doctorishness” when 10 wasn’t with Rose, perhaps due to how overtly human/traditional hero he tried to be. I mean, he even gets his catchphrase in “Doomsday” and his cool action theme in Series 3.
And then there’s the whole “I won’t say I’m in love” aspect –for good, valid, character-based reasons, but still– that keeps their relationship from developing. People who you feel *want* to get married, feed each other chocolates, and shag their collective brains out, but are forced to stay in a stasis because the writing doesn’t know what else to do with them and/or wants tragedy for the sake of tragedy (because 10 *needs* !ANGST! ) are less engaging to watch.
Again, I may be biased because of cosplay and I’m probably too harsh on the poor babies now (Genuinely happy 10 is rare, I know I will go “aww”). Just see this as a subjective, personal view. But I mostly feel it’s a writing thing anyway, like I said: the “I won’t say I’m in love” stasis, the underlying unequal power dynamic… That’s why 10.2/Rose opens up so many possibilities. As a great fic puts it: “It’s not perfect. But in a way it’s better than perfect, because finally it’s real.”
And also about writing issues, I think you can have people who are in love; but you have to either give them huge obstacles to overcome, make them unhappy for other reasons, or give them very, very interesting things to do. I mean everyone and their mother (literally!) was already shipping 11/River by the Series 5 finale, and the flirting was over 9000; but we have this mysterious box that’s been hyped up to high heaven, a bajillion hostile armies on our heads, and all of existence and a wedding to save. You have to take drugs to not get invested to “watching Hitchcock” levels.
And like I said, Moffat allows our poor favourite bastards to occasionally Earn Their Happy Ending and applies copious amounts of the Reverse Don Bluth Principle. So that helps, I think.
(And sorry for the Walls of Text.)
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
Yes, thissss. I talk about this often wrt couples and whether the reason they aren't together is due to character issues or plot issues. Look at Romeo & Juliet - if their families didn't happen to be mortal enemies, they'd just get married and be happy. And it's the same thing with Ten & Rose - if it wasn't because he was a Time Lord, they'd either get married or break up (in spectacular fashion, probably). I much prefer couples where the issues are inherent to *them*. Where they argue and fight and gain a better understanding of each other, and it's not 'happily ever after' but it's complex and complicated. (See Doctor/River. Or Buffy/Spike. Or any of my other OTPs.) Although Spuffy is probably the most divisive. See icon. :)
As a great fic puts it: “It’s not perfect. But in a way it’s better than perfect, because finally it’s real.”
Yes, perfectly put.
I mean everyone and their mother (literally!) was already shipping 11/River by the Series 5 finale, and the flirting was over 9000; but we have this mysterious box that’s been hyped up to high heaven, a bajillion hostile armies on our heads, and all of existence and a wedding to save. You have to take drugs to not get invested to “watching Hitchcock” levels.
LOL. Although I'm not sure about 'everyone'. I used to have a 'River fan. No apologies' icon. And it was relevant. People did. not. like. her. or they thought she was the Rani or the Master or something else.
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
(Anonymous) 2017-05-01 05:34 pm (UTC)(link)Well, from what I can tell, River *still* is a divisive character. Although I do think that the characters/actors/plots/things that don’t divide the DW fandom can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and I’m being generous.
And now that you mentioned it, GOOD GOD. What is it with the Rani fans?! Why does she have so many, anyway? Every new character is ALWAYS the Rani until proven otherwise! Okay, we all have our faves, but this is not a reasonable or healthy way to approach fiction! Oh well :)
(I’ll get back to you on “Swift Musings” when I get the time -because probable huge explanation about my opinion, why I *will* still stick with it, but also one or two interesting things I hadn’t noticed, were I to go with yours.)
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
Very true. Although there was a lot of resentment back in the day (the Library episodes) when she waltzed in & claimed the Doctor as HERS! (Didn't she know that the Doctor belonged to ROSE? they yelled...) Ahem. ;)
And now that you mentioned it, GOOD GOD. What is it with the Rani fans?! Why does she have so many, anyway? Every new character is ALWAYS the Rani until proven otherwise! Okay, we all have our faves, but this is not a reasonable or healthy way to approach fiction! Oh well :)
Well, how do we know that BILL isn't the Rani, eh? She's science-y and all that. MAYBE THERE IS A FOB WATCH IN HER DRAWERS!!
(I’ll get back to you on “Swift Musings” when I get the time -because probable huge explanation about my opinion, why I *will* still stick with it, but also one or two interesting things I hadn’t noticed, were I to go with yours.)
If we agreed on everything, life would be boring. :)