And how Ten spent his whole tenure being eaten up by guilt over what he'd done to his own people. He HAD to be right because if he was wrong, maybe he'd been wrong back then too, and then everything would unravel. Then comes EoT and he gets to confront the situation once again, and has to make the same choice, and it's affirmed that it *was* the right choice. (Because Rassilon is bat-shit crazy and would have destroyed the universe.) So - Eleven is born with a much calmer state of mind. Still guilty, but not in the same way as Ten. And thus he behaves differently Yes, you had brought this up. Obviously, their differences in this matter and many others can be a result of character development, not just random personality change because of regeneration (For instance, though other factors were at play too, 11 reacts much better to instances of Cloning Blues than 10 did). If he is indeed the same man, his previous mindsets and experiences *have* to shape the way he changes and acts.
Interestingly, I agree with you, but I think that even though 11 *is* calmer, his guilt is *deeper*, he is the most guilt-ridden of all the Doctors (Just my personal view). Because: a) he is OCD –trust me, he is- so he is “okay” and *has* to be in control, thus all the bad stuff is usually hidden under the surface and left to increase and go haywire, b) naturally, he gets older and the guilt accumulates, c) he is constantly confronted -like you said, in part paying for 10’s hubris- with people who are terrified of him and his reputation (See “Why would a Time Lord be a weapon?”) , d) in contrast to 10, he earnestly tries to move on and is constantly thwarted and reminded of the Time War, e) his calmer state of mind (and memory of the EoT confrontation) allows him to not think in absolutes: 10 was either “it was the best place ever, woe is me”, total nostalgia goggles *or* “they were all monsters, I *had* to stop them”. So now I think he sees the picture as it really is, aka, “Well, I really did *have* to do it because the higher-ups would have destroyed the universe. Still. Genocide. Of my own planet. Lots of children. Please kill me.” To quote Ursula Le Guin, “For you’ve done what you had to do, and it was not right”. f) Ironically, I think that this very change in perspective that allows him to at least not think about it all the time, adds more guilt by widening his point of view. I mean yes, of course that is the big thing, but he is no more tunnel-vision about it. So now he goes “Oh. Wait. There was that other planet I ruined. And those species I destroyed because I had no choice. And all those times I was a dick because I was thinking about the War, and maybe I was biased, and did I choose correctly because of that? Oh, and that thing *before* the War, how the hell did I forget that, why didn’t I realise how horrible it was. And all those people who died because I made a mistake. Come to think of it, all those people who died just because I happened to be near. And all those people I personally ruined. Oh my God, Rose, and Martha, and Donna. And now I’m ruining the Ponds. And River. And you know, I really am a terrible person. And here’s another Sadistic Choice I have to make. Yay, more guilt. And I can’t save everyone. And I killed that alien guy. And- You know, maybe the Silence had a point after all.”
So yeah, thank God and Moffat for taking pity on him, and giving him an understanding family and friends, at least *some* happy endings, TDoTD, and a perfect regeneration episode.
Obviously it's an overgeneralisation - I was thinking of people who are in love, and thus focus mostly on each other. Rather than friends who run around having adventures together. Well, I did include people who are in love: Amy and Rory are. The Doctor and River are. Though I suppose you could say that they have a *family* dynamic, even before they discover that they are, so it’s different. But even so, I think 11 has an important advantage there because of the way he’s written –and do I think you can write the Doctor in love just fine, no matter what some people say. (Or he gets better episodes, I don’t know, I need to rewatch Series 2. But he does, doesn’t he?) I equally see the Doctor in an episode with Clara or a River-heavy one. When he is alone, it is equally heartbreaking with 10 but I don’t *want* him to stay that way, that doesn’t make him more interesting to watch. (And again, also, he didn’t need to lose people for us to *really* appreciate them and their connection through his level of grief, because we already did so; which I think is important.) What I’m trying to say is that I felt an increased “Doctorishness” when 10 wasn’t with Rose, perhaps due to how overtly human/traditional hero he tried to be. I mean, he even gets his catchphrase in “Doomsday” and his cool action theme in Series 3. And then there’s the whole “I won’t say I’m in love” aspect –for good, valid, character-based reasons, but still– that keeps their relationship from developing. People who you feel *want* to get married, feed each other chocolates, and shag their collective brains out, but are forced to stay in a stasis because the writing doesn’t know what else to do with them and/or wants tragedy for the sake of tragedy (because 10 *needs* !ANGST! ) are less engaging to watch.
Again, I may be biased because of cosplay and I’m probably too harsh on the poor babies now (Genuinely happy 10 is rare, I know I will go “aww”). Just see this as a subjective, personal view. But I mostly feel it’s a writing thing anyway, like I said: the “I won’t say I’m in love” stasis, the underlying unequal power dynamic… That’s why 10.2/Rose opens up so many possibilities. As a great fic puts it: “It’s not perfect. But in a way it’s better than perfect, because finally it’s real.” And also about writing issues, I think you can have people who are in love; but you have to either give them huge obstacles to overcome, make them unhappy for other reasons, or give them very, very interesting things to do. I mean everyone and their mother (literally!) was already shipping 11/River by the Series 5 finale, and the flirting was over 9000; but we have this mysterious box that’s been hyped up to high heaven, a bajillion hostile armies on our heads, and all of existence and a wedding to save. You have to take drugs to not get invested to “watching Hitchcock” levels. And like I said, Moffat allows our poor favourite bastards to occasionally Earn Their Happy Ending and applies copious amounts of the Reverse Don Bluth Principle. So that helps, I think.
And then there’s the whole “I won’t say I’m in love” aspect –for good, valid, character-based reasons, but still– that keeps their relationship from developing. People who you feel *want* to get married, feed each other chocolates, and shag their collective brains out, but are forced to stay in a stasis because the writing doesn’t know what else to do with them and/or wants tragedy for the sake of tragedy (because 10 *needs* !ANGST! ) are less engaging to watch. Yes, thissss. I talk about this often wrt couples and whether the reason they aren't together is due to character issues or plot issues. Look at Romeo & Juliet - if their families didn't happen to be mortal enemies, they'd just get married and be happy. And it's the same thing with Ten & Rose - if it wasn't because he was a Time Lord, they'd either get married or break up (in spectacular fashion, probably). I much prefer couples where the issues are inherent to *them*. Where they argue and fight and gain a better understanding of each other, and it's not 'happily ever after' but it's complex and complicated. (See Doctor/River. Or Buffy/Spike. Or any of my other OTPs.) Although Spuffy is probably the most divisive. See icon. :)
As a great fic puts it: “It’s not perfect. But in a way it’s better than perfect, because finally it’s real.” Yes, perfectly put.
I mean everyone and their mother (literally!) was already shipping 11/River by the Series 5 finale, and the flirting was over 9000; but we have this mysterious box that’s been hyped up to high heaven, a bajillion hostile armies on our heads, and all of existence and a wedding to save. You have to take drugs to not get invested to “watching Hitchcock” levels. LOL. Although I'm not sure about 'everyone'. I used to have a 'River fan. No apologies' icon. And it was relevant. People did. not. like. her. or they thought she was the Rani or the Master or something else.
LOL. Although I'm not sure about 'everyone'. I used to have a 'River fan. No apologies' icon. And it was relevant. People did. not. like. her. or they thought she was the Rani or the Master or something else. Well, from what I can tell, River *still* is a divisive character. Although I do think that the characters/actors/plots/things that don’t divide the DW fandom can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and I’m being generous.
And now that you mentioned it, GOOD GOD. What is it with the Rani fans?! Why does she have so many, anyway? Every new character is ALWAYS the Rani until proven otherwise! Okay, we all have our faves, but this is not a reasonable or healthy way to approach fiction! Oh well :)
(I’ll get back to you on “Swift Musings” when I get the time -because probable huge explanation about my opinion, why I *will* still stick with it, but also one or two interesting things I hadn’t noticed, were I to go with yours.)
Well, from what I can tell, River *still* is a divisive character. Although I do think that the characters/actors/plots/things that don’t divide the DW fandom can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and I’m being generous. Very true. Although there was a lot of resentment back in the day (the Library episodes) when she waltzed in & claimed the Doctor as HERS! (Didn't she know that the Doctor belonged to ROSE? they yelled...) Ahem. ;)
And now that you mentioned it, GOOD GOD. What is it with the Rani fans?! Why does she have so many, anyway? Every new character is ALWAYS the Rani until proven otherwise! Okay, we all have our faves, but this is not a reasonable or healthy way to approach fiction! Oh well :) Well, how do we know that BILL isn't the Rani, eh? She's science-y and all that. MAYBE THERE IS A FOB WATCH IN HER DRAWERS!!
(I’ll get back to you on “Swift Musings” when I get the time -because probable huge explanation about my opinion, why I *will* still stick with it, but also one or two interesting things I hadn’t noticed, were I to go with yours.) If we agreed on everything, life would be boring. :)
Yes, you had brought this up. Obviously, their differences in this matter and many others can be a result of character development, not just random personality change because of regeneration (For instance, though other factors were at play too, 11 reacts much better to instances of Cloning Blues than 10 did). If he is indeed the same man, his previous mindsets and experiences *have* to shape the way he changes and acts. It's also (IMHO) the way each regeneration is a reaction against the previous one. See Five & Six for the ultimate example. Five is the softest of the Doctors. Six is the closest to being a psychopath. So a lot of Eleven is a reaction against Ten's problematic issues.
Interestingly, I agree with you, but I think that even though 11 *is* calmer, his guilt is *deeper*, he is the most guilt-ridden of all the Doctors (Just my personal view). No arguing with that! Young face, old soul. As Matt Smith said:
"That's what interests me about The Doctor because, actually, look at the blood on the man's hands... Which is why I think he has to make silly jokes and wear a fez. Because if he didn't, he'd hang himself."
Twelve can be more outwardly gruff, because he's lost that massive burden of being the killer of his own kind. And then Clara hammers home the point that HE IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HER OR HER CHOICES!
And so; calm, relatively content Twelve we have. ♥
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Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
(Anonymous) 2017-04-30 01:50 pm (UTC)(link)Yes, you had brought this up. Obviously, their differences in this matter and many others can be a result of character development, not just random personality change because of regeneration (For instance, though other factors were at play too, 11 reacts much better to instances of Cloning Blues than 10 did). If he is indeed the same man, his previous mindsets and experiences *have* to shape the way he changes and acts.
Interestingly, I agree with you, but I think that even though 11 *is* calmer, his guilt is *deeper*, he is the most guilt-ridden of all the Doctors (Just my personal view). Because:
a) he is OCD –trust me, he is- so he is “okay” and *has* to be in control, thus all the bad stuff is usually hidden under the surface and left to increase and go haywire,
b) naturally, he gets older and the guilt accumulates,
c) he is constantly confronted -like you said, in part paying for 10’s hubris- with people who are terrified of him and his reputation (See “Why would a Time Lord be a weapon?”) ,
d) in contrast to 10, he earnestly tries to move on and is constantly thwarted and reminded of the Time War,
e) his calmer state of mind (and memory of the EoT confrontation) allows him to not think in absolutes: 10 was either “it was the best place ever, woe is me”, total nostalgia goggles *or* “they were all monsters, I *had* to stop them”. So now I think he sees the picture as it really is, aka, “Well, I really did *have* to do it because the higher-ups would have destroyed the universe. Still. Genocide. Of my own planet. Lots of children. Please kill me.” To quote Ursula Le Guin, “For you’ve done what you had to do, and it was not right”.
f) Ironically, I think that this very change in perspective that allows him to at least not think about it all the time, adds more guilt by widening his point of view. I mean yes, of course that is the big thing, but he is no more tunnel-vision about it. So now he goes “Oh. Wait. There was that other planet I ruined. And those species I destroyed because I had no choice. And all those times I was a dick because I was thinking about the War, and maybe I was biased, and did I choose correctly because of that? Oh, and that thing *before* the War, how the hell did I forget that, why didn’t I realise how horrible it was. And all those people who died because I made a mistake. Come to think of it, all those people who died just because I happened to be near. And all those people I personally ruined. Oh my God, Rose, and Martha, and Donna. And now I’m ruining the Ponds. And River. And you know, I really am a terrible person. And here’s another Sadistic Choice I have to make. Yay, more guilt. And I can’t save everyone. And I killed that alien guy. And- You know, maybe the Silence had a point after all.”
So yeah, thank God and Moffat for taking pity on him, and giving him an understanding family and friends, at least *some* happy endings, TDoTD, and a perfect regeneration episode.
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
(Anonymous) 2017-04-30 02:23 pm (UTC)(link)Well, I did include people who are in love: Amy and Rory are. The Doctor and River are. Though I suppose you could say that they have a *family* dynamic, even before they discover that they are, so it’s different.
But even so, I think 11 has an important advantage there because of the way he’s written –and do I think you can write the Doctor in love just fine, no matter what some people say. (Or he gets better episodes, I don’t know, I need to rewatch Series 2. But he does, doesn’t he?) I equally see the Doctor in an episode with Clara or a River-heavy one. When he is alone, it is equally heartbreaking with 10 but I don’t *want* him to stay that way, that doesn’t make him more interesting to watch. (And again, also, he didn’t need to lose people for us to *really* appreciate them and their connection through his level of grief, because we already did so; which I think is important.)
What I’m trying to say is that I felt an increased “Doctorishness” when 10 wasn’t with Rose, perhaps due to how overtly human/traditional hero he tried to be. I mean, he even gets his catchphrase in “Doomsday” and his cool action theme in Series 3.
And then there’s the whole “I won’t say I’m in love” aspect –for good, valid, character-based reasons, but still– that keeps their relationship from developing. People who you feel *want* to get married, feed each other chocolates, and shag their collective brains out, but are forced to stay in a stasis because the writing doesn’t know what else to do with them and/or wants tragedy for the sake of tragedy (because 10 *needs* !ANGST! ) are less engaging to watch.
Again, I may be biased because of cosplay and I’m probably too harsh on the poor babies now (Genuinely happy 10 is rare, I know I will go “aww”). Just see this as a subjective, personal view. But I mostly feel it’s a writing thing anyway, like I said: the “I won’t say I’m in love” stasis, the underlying unequal power dynamic… That’s why 10.2/Rose opens up so many possibilities. As a great fic puts it: “It’s not perfect. But in a way it’s better than perfect, because finally it’s real.”
And also about writing issues, I think you can have people who are in love; but you have to either give them huge obstacles to overcome, make them unhappy for other reasons, or give them very, very interesting things to do. I mean everyone and their mother (literally!) was already shipping 11/River by the Series 5 finale, and the flirting was over 9000; but we have this mysterious box that’s been hyped up to high heaven, a bajillion hostile armies on our heads, and all of existence and a wedding to save. You have to take drugs to not get invested to “watching Hitchcock” levels.
And like I said, Moffat allows our poor favourite bastards to occasionally Earn Their Happy Ending and applies copious amounts of the Reverse Don Bluth Principle. So that helps, I think.
(And sorry for the Walls of Text.)
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
Yes, thissss. I talk about this often wrt couples and whether the reason they aren't together is due to character issues or plot issues. Look at Romeo & Juliet - if their families didn't happen to be mortal enemies, they'd just get married and be happy. And it's the same thing with Ten & Rose - if it wasn't because he was a Time Lord, they'd either get married or break up (in spectacular fashion, probably). I much prefer couples where the issues are inherent to *them*. Where they argue and fight and gain a better understanding of each other, and it's not 'happily ever after' but it's complex and complicated. (See Doctor/River. Or Buffy/Spike. Or any of my other OTPs.) Although Spuffy is probably the most divisive. See icon. :)
As a great fic puts it: “It’s not perfect. But in a way it’s better than perfect, because finally it’s real.”
Yes, perfectly put.
I mean everyone and their mother (literally!) was already shipping 11/River by the Series 5 finale, and the flirting was over 9000; but we have this mysterious box that’s been hyped up to high heaven, a bajillion hostile armies on our heads, and all of existence and a wedding to save. You have to take drugs to not get invested to “watching Hitchcock” levels.
LOL. Although I'm not sure about 'everyone'. I used to have a 'River fan. No apologies' icon. And it was relevant. People did. not. like. her. or they thought she was the Rani or the Master or something else.
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
(Anonymous) 2017-05-01 05:34 pm (UTC)(link)Well, from what I can tell, River *still* is a divisive character. Although I do think that the characters/actors/plots/things that don’t divide the DW fandom can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and I’m being generous.
And now that you mentioned it, GOOD GOD. What is it with the Rani fans?! Why does she have so many, anyway? Every new character is ALWAYS the Rani until proven otherwise! Okay, we all have our faves, but this is not a reasonable or healthy way to approach fiction! Oh well :)
(I’ll get back to you on “Swift Musings” when I get the time -because probable huge explanation about my opinion, why I *will* still stick with it, but also one or two interesting things I hadn’t noticed, were I to go with yours.)
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
Very true. Although there was a lot of resentment back in the day (the Library episodes) when she waltzed in & claimed the Doctor as HERS! (Didn't she know that the Doctor belonged to ROSE? they yelled...) Ahem. ;)
And now that you mentioned it, GOOD GOD. What is it with the Rani fans?! Why does she have so many, anyway? Every new character is ALWAYS the Rani until proven otherwise! Okay, we all have our faves, but this is not a reasonable or healthy way to approach fiction! Oh well :)
Well, how do we know that BILL isn't the Rani, eh? She's science-y and all that. MAYBE THERE IS A FOB WATCH IN HER DRAWERS!!
(I’ll get back to you on “Swift Musings” when I get the time -because probable huge explanation about my opinion, why I *will* still stick with it, but also one or two interesting things I hadn’t noticed, were I to go with yours.)
If we agreed on everything, life would be boring. :)
Re: Thy humble phantom lurker
It's also (IMHO) the way each regeneration is a reaction against the previous one. See Five & Six for the ultimate example. Five is the softest of the Doctors. Six is the closest to being a psychopath. So a lot of Eleven is a reaction against Ten's problematic issues.
Interestingly, I agree with you, but I think that even though 11 *is* calmer, his guilt is *deeper*, he is the most guilt-ridden of all the Doctors (Just my personal view).
No arguing with that! Young face, old soul. As Matt Smith said:
"That's what interests me about The Doctor because, actually, look at the blood on the man's hands... Which is why I think he has to make silly jokes and wear a fez. Because if he didn't, he'd hang himself."
Twelve can be more outwardly gruff, because he's lost that massive burden of being the killer of his own kind. And then Clara hammers home the point that HE IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HER OR HER CHOICES!
And so; calm, relatively content Twelve we have. ♥