elisi | TSE/JE re-watch thoughts.

Current Mood: sleepy
Current Music: Howl

Entry tags:

TSE/JE re-watch thoughts.

Soooo, we might have re-watched TSE/JE this evening...

My girls never fail to entertain. Re. Rose at the beginning of TSE, Impish Girl had this to say: "Ooh I'm just going to rip a whole in time and space, cause that's the best thing to do if you want to see someone. Lalalalala."

She seems to have got right to the heart of Doctor/Rose. *g* (I tried to explain that it was more complicated, but then Rose went and kinda contradicted me.)

She also expressed a desire to see the Men in Black. (Which would have been better than the American UNIT people, true. Although I loved the upgrade from 'Code Red' to 'Ultimate Code Red'.)

EVERYTHING with Wilf is AWESOME.

And Torchwood... *HEART STILL BROKEN*

Oh and re. the Doctor dying DRAMATICALLY in Rose's arms in the middle of the road, this was Impish Girl's reaction: "This is when Matt Smith should come along, all 'Shut up, I'm dying!' So much better!" *g*

OK, so we skipped the very end of JE (no need to see the sadness of Donna's end), but why do people not like the rest? OK, so it's COMPLETELY over the top and crammed full of EVERYTHING and MAD, but it's FUN and Ten is quite decent there for a while. That scene before they walk out onto the Crucible and he very carefully tells Donna and Jack and Rose that they were brilliant and then steps out to face the music? That's a beautiful scene. As is the bit right after when he's desperate to save Donna. (And the TARDIS is all proactive in keeping Donna inside so TenToo can be born. 'Tis VERY NEAT.) Mind you then Ten goes all emo again, which is a bit of a drawback... Because the thing about Ten is that he's far too good at lying to himself (and good grief, he's SUCH a hypocrite re. TenToo). Here, allow me to demonstrate:

I just can't help but think that if it had been Eleven there with Davros, with River trying to destroy something or other in order to save the day, the whole thing would have fallen completely flat...

Davros: 'LOOK SHE IS A MURDERER BECAUSE OF YOU!'
Eleven: 'And...?'

(Can't help myself. But seriously, imagine if Ten HAD regenerated at the end of TSE. Has anyone written JE with Eleven instead of Ten? I'd read the hell out of that. And no, I'm NOT writing it myself - I've already got the Seeker's version knocking about in my head. There are limits to how many different versions I can write of something. ANYWAY. Ten is waaaay too emo over all his Companions being badass.)

Other random thoughts: This episode again brought home how *incredibly* Earth-centric RTD-Who is. I don't suppose there's anything wrong with this per se, but compare with AGMGTW... Ten is completely focussed on humans, whereas Eleven has friends all over the place.

Oh and OMG the Doctor-worship is off the scale. Jack & Sarah Jane (and Rose) are all 'DOCTOR! I NEED THE DOCTOR!' Mind you it is sort-of balanced with Jackie being all 'I NEED TO FIND ROSE!' and Martha who is a) Focussed on her family, and b) focussed on her mission. Go Martha.

Aaaand I need to go to bed. Plz behave yourself. Thank you. ♥

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

She seems to have got right to the heart of Doctor/Rose. *g* (I tried to explain that it was more complicated, but then Rose went and kinda contradicted me.)
*gigglesnort*

She also expressed a desire to see the Men in Black. (Which would have been better than the American UNIT people, true. Although I loved the upgrade from 'Code Red' to 'Ultimate Code Red'.)
THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER! Also, there was a moment where the Daleks are talking about "ultimate destiny," and then I had to find this vid and watch it again and wonder, again, why I have not yet watched The Middleman: Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny. I may have slight fears that no show can actually live up to what I'm imagining.

Oh and OMG the Doctor-worship is off the scale. Jack & Sarah Jane (and Rose) are all 'DOCTOR! I NEED THE DOCTOR!'
THIS IS ALSO A PROBLEM I HAVE WITH IT TOO. But that basically goes without saying by this point. You know when you can parody something without having to rewrite a word of it? THAT IS THE DOCTOR-WORSHIP IN THIS EPISODE.

*gigglesnort*
My kids are smart, yo.

THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER!
Bigger guns for a start. And proper American accents. (OH GOD THEY ARE SO BAD! /o\)

Also, there was a moment where the Daleks are talking about "ultimate destiny," and then I had to find this vid and watch it again and wonder, again, why I have not yet watched The Middleman: Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny. I may have slight fears that no show can actually live up to what I'm imagining.
Will check that out when I have time, promise.

THIS IS ALSO A PROBLEM I HAVE WITH IT TOO. But that basically goes without saying by this point. You know when you can parody something without having to rewrite a word of it? THAT IS THE DOCTOR-WORSHIP IN THIS EPISODE.
It's worse in EoT (IMHO). I just don't understand why Wilf loves him so much. At least all the former Companions have lots of reasons (which override any sense they happen to possess... /o\), but Wilf? Donna must have written some cracking letters.

Bigger guns for a start. And proper American accents. (OH GOD THEY ARE SO BAD! /o\)
Every time Rusty tries to do Americans I want to die. Laughing.

Will check that out when I have time, promise.
MmmmHmmm. You should, though. 'Tis MADE OF DELIGHT AND MADNESS. And the song will be stuck in your head every time you watch a Rusty finale for the rest of forever.

It's worse in EoT (IMHO). I just don't understand why Wilf loves him so much. At least all the former Companions have lots of reasons (which override any sense they happen to possess... /o\), but Wilf? Donna must have written some cracking letters.
Huh. It doesn't actually bother me in Wilf. *ponders* Strange.

Every time Rusty tries to do Americans I want to die. Laughing.
I think he's a little bit in love with them...

And the song will be stuck in your head every time you watch a Rusty finale for the rest of forever.
This is a good reason.

Huh. It doesn't actually bother me in Wilf. *ponders* Strange.
It does bother me bother me, because he's Wilf and clearly he's just the nicest, kindest, most loving grandfather in the world. But if I look at it logically... The Doctor did HORRIBLE things to Donna and Wilf just forgives him absolutely and keeps thinking he's the Best Man In The World. But he's Wilf, so he gets away with it.

I think he's a little bit in love with them...
It's a little cringe-worthy in most of DW, but I'm pretty sure his Miracle Day Americanism was satirical genius *squishes MD*

The Doctor did HORRIBLE things to Donna and Wilf just forgives him absolutely and keeps thinking he's the Best Man In The World. But he's Wilf, so he gets away with it.
How did this NEVER EVEN OCCUR TO ME?!?!

*blinks*

WILF! *shakes fist*

It's a little cringe-worthy in most of DW, but I'm pretty sure his Miracle Day Americanism was satirical genius *squishes MD*
Well that would certainly increase my appreciation of it.

How did this NEVER EVEN OCCUR TO ME?!?!
Because he looks at you with those big sad eyes and logical thoughts cease all all you want is to make him happy.

Incidentally this sorta made me grumble about Donna's end (again). Well not her end, but the general fannish response. OK, so the whole thing is rather awkard - man forcing his will on a woman begging him to stop - but. I always thought the Doctor did the right thing, and the longer I think about it, the more I think it was right. Firstly because of her family - turning up on their doorstep saying 'By the way Donna is dead. I could have saved her - at a cost - but didn't. She's better off dead, really.'

Which brings me to my second point: Is DEATH preferable to a life without travelling with the Doctor? Really? Is that a message that should be put across? Of course Donna in that moment is desperate to keep hold of her memories, just as the Doctor was desperate to save the people on Mars. Doesn't mean he was right, or at all capable of rational thought at that moment in time...

Maybe it's a symptom of RTD era Who or something similar, like how most of the Companions abandon family, friends & loved ones to run after the Doctor without second's hesitation. Like Rose's 'There's nothing for me here' in Parting of the Ways'.

And yet the Doctor is always extolling the fabulousness of ordinary life.... *pokes show* This is that whole issue again, isn't it? Obligatory quote re. Amy's Choice:

Amy is shown loving Rory, but not sharing his ideal dream. Finally, it is openly stated that you can love someone truly and deeply and NOT want the exact same things from life, or be expected to. The romantic component aside, the real crux of the episode seemed to be asking whether you choose the life you love or the people you love -- and the kicker was, neither choice was the 'real' one; both were illusionary. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, in the adult world of compromises and responsibility, and neither running away to space or moving to Upper Leadworth is the real solution.

OH GOD I'M RAMBLING AGAIN STOP ME.

(Srsly, ignore me. It's been a looooooong day.)

Well that would certainly increase my appreciation of it.
I don't care what anyone else says; Rex was hysterical and awesome.

Because he looks at you with those big sad eyes and logical thoughts cease all all you want is to make him happy.
Nice people are evil and not to be trusted.

Incidentally this sorta made me grumble about Donna's end (again). Well not her end, but the general fannish response.
I know what you mean--there's this sort of universal condemnation and general assumption that, yes, maybe the Doctor "had" to wipe Donna's memory, but that doesn't matter because he was WRONG. Well, how would everyone have felt if he had let her die? Really? Really?

Which brings me to my second point: Is DEATH preferable to a life without travelling with the Doctor? Really? Is that a message that should be put across?
Silly Elisi, don't you know that traveling with the Doctor is the only legitimate life choice in the universe and nothing else really matters except maybe if you set up an orphan asylum for blind puppies and travel the world protesting malaria but even then you will always just be waiting for the Doctor to come back again? *shakes head*

OH GOD I'M RAMBLING AGAIN STOP ME.
IT'S FUNNY HOW YOU THINK I COULD DO THAT AT ALL.

I don't care what anyone else says; Rex was hysterical and awesome.
As a dig at a stereotype, he was indeed fabulous! <3

Nice people are evil and not to be trusted.
Glad you have now understood this. (Like that saying goes: You know where you are with liars, it's people telling the truth that you've got to watch out for.)

I know what you mean--there's this sort of universal condemnation and general assumption that, yes, maybe the Doctor "had" to wipe Donna's memory, but that doesn't matter because he was WRONG. Well, how would everyone have felt if he had let her die? Really? Really?
I think in many cases it's people bringing their issues to the story (a little like people shouting at RTD about homophobia after he killed Ianto). Not that people's issues aren't legitimate, and of course the scene is HUGELY upsetting, but it was the *only* thin he could have done. (If he'd let her die, it would have been like the spacewhale - he would no longer be the Doctor, and would have to go find a new name.) Also I love this post, and generally get cross at people who somehow seem to value Donna only for what she achieves with the Doctor, and not for who she is herself. (Hey I really have ISSUES, don't I? Funny how these things work.)

Silly Elisi, don't you know that traveling with the Doctor is the only legitimate life choice in the universe and nothing else really matters except maybe if you set up an orphan asylum for blind puppies and travel the world protesting malaria but even then you will always just be waiting for the Doctor to come back again? *shakes head*
I like Amy.

IT'S FUNNY HOW YOU THINK I COULD DO THAT AT ALL.
Rather. You seem to be my enabler... ;)

Glad you have now understood this. (Like that saying goes: You know where you are with liars, it's people telling the truth that you've got to watch out for.)
Oh, all nice people are liars. Hence my very great love of Cordelia Chase, around whom everyone will always know exactly where they stand.

I think in many cases it's people bringing their issues to the story (a little like people shouting at RTD about homophobia after he killed Ianto). Not that people's issues aren't legitimate, and of course the scene is HUGELY upsetting, but it was the *only* thin he could have done.
Yeah, if I'm gonna be upset with anybody for that one, it would be with Rusty for going there at all (though, as I said before, don't really care), especially in comparison with the end of season one where, I think, narratively Rose really should have had to sacrifice more for taking the time vortex into her. I can't find it in me to get worked up at the Doctor's actions here, though.

Also I love this post, and generally get cross at people who somehow seem to value Donna only for what she achieves with the Doctor, and not for who she is herself. (Hey I really have ISSUES, don't I? Funny how these things work.)
Will read in a sec, but if fans are guilty of that, definitely think Rusty was guilty first.

Rather. You seem to be my enabler... ;)
I just like you to be happy.

Also I love this post, and generally get cross at people who somehow seem to value Donna only for what she achieves with the Doctor, and not for who she is herself. (Hey I really have ISSUES, don't I? Funny how these things work.)
Oh, that is a *very* good argument, and I shall subscribe to it. Also funny how what some of the commenters are saying about how Donna would force the Doctor to show up at family events is so very like Amy at the end of the Christmas special. I mean, there was a water gun instead of slapping, but otherwise . . . But then I do think Amy echoes Donna in some key ways: ginger, bossy but insecure, a volatile combination of childlike trust and adoration with stubborn, combative suspiciousness, a big theme of memory running throughout. Interesting how heavily Moff Who comes down on the side that we are who we are (and who we are to each other), and that will out no matter what universe and what memories you're working with.

Actually, you know what does bother me about Donna's ending? It's the whole DoctorDonna thing. It's hard for me to feel excited about her saving the day because the means are so icky and wrong. I feel like that's the far worse violation and that having her memories wiped is just the distasteful but necessary cure.

I will get back to you, but someone indeed wrote a fascinating and deeply disturbing post on this subject, and I am of the exact same opinion as you.

Yay! I found it, and it's by

topaz_eyes and it generally pulls S4 together in beautiful ways far beyond what Rusty intended, I think:

Donna Noble's Midnight: Parallels, Foreshadowing, and "Journey's End

Verrrrrry good.

Edited 2012-06-16 19:19 (UTC)

That is excellent, thanks. An interesting parallel with Midnight.

I think I'd even like to de-emphasize the idea that something Time Lord is taking over her brain? Because that carries with it ideas of something bigger, stronger, obviously alien, and which, the show gives as easy justification for why she needs to be mindwiped, is killing her. I feel like those are simplistic threats? Whereas what freaks me out is the fact that this is not Donna, and the way in which it is not Donna is nearly irrelevant.

I feel like those are simplistic threats? Whereas what freaks me out is the fact that this is not Donna, and the way in which it is not Donna is nearly irrelevant.
Interesting distinction, but yes, that makes perfect sense.

Finally broke down and watched a few eps of The Middleman.

=D omg, it is fantastic:

You know how in comic books there's all kinds of mad scientists and aliens and androids and monsters and all of them want to either destroy or take over the world?

In comic books, sure.

Well, it really does work like that.

Three guesses where this duck came from:

time duck

Too slow. IT WAS STUCK IN A CRACK IN SPACE.

I kid you not.

O_o

...

That's just not fair. How and when am I going to watch this?

Lol! That I do not know. It is family-friendly, though, so you can certainly use your girls as a convenient excuse *nods*

Ok, it probably wouldn't change your life, but it is utterly daft fun and very well done and the dialogue is GOLD. And Wendy, the main character on the left there, is very excellent too.

It's a bit like if Men in Black and Pushiing Daisies had a bastard love child that had a few too many metacrack pills and was then raised by Lorelai Gilmore.

Oh look, the vampire episode!

Oh . . . look, the vampire puppet episode!

*CRIES*

(I checked - it's on amazon, but only region 1, and we no longer have a multi-region DVD player. BOO.)

Although I shall just curl up and snark that clearly they have no original ideas.

I'm sorry for bringing it up.

Although I shall just curl up and snark that clearly they have no original ideas.
You do that, then *pets* Though this really was *about* vampire puppets and, actually, probably one of the freakier vampire things I've ever seen (they're ventriloquist dummies that enthrall their wearers and use them to carry out their nefarious vampire ends). Also they made a Buffy joke, so I think they know what they're doing.

. Also they made a Buffy joke, so I think they know what they're doing.
*sadface* (The Spike comic that my icon comes from has evil puppets. It's very good. Creepy puppets always make things better.)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

TSE/JE re-watch thoughts.

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

The vast discontinuity of ducks

Re: The vast discontinuity of ducks

Re: The vast discontinuity of ducks

Re: The vast discontinuity of ducks

Re: The vast discontinuity of ducks

Re: The vast discontinuity of ducks

Re: The vast discontinuity of ducks