TSE/JE re-watch thoughts.

[elisi]

Soooo, we might have re-watched TSE/JE this evening...

My girls never fail to entertain. Re. Rose at the beginning of TSE, Impish Girl had this to say: "Ooh I'm just going to rip a whole in time and space, cause that's the best thing to do if you want to see someone. Lalalalala."

She seems to have got right to the heart of Doctor/Rose. *g* (I tried to explain that it was more complicated, but then Rose went and kinda contradicted me.)

She also expressed a desire to see the Men in Black. (Which would have been better than the American UNIT people, true. Although I loved the upgrade from 'Code Red' to 'Ultimate Code Red'.)

EVERYTHING with Wilf is AWESOME.

And Torchwood... *HEART STILL BROKEN*

Oh and re. the Doctor dying DRAMATICALLY in Rose's arms in the middle of the road, this was Impish Girl's reaction: "This is when Matt Smith should come along, all 'Shut up, I'm dying!' So much better!" *g*

OK, so we skipped the very end of JE (no need to see the sadness of Donna's end), but why do people not like the rest? OK, so it's COMPLETELY over the top and crammed full of EVERYTHING and MAD, but it's FUN and Ten is quite decent there for a while. That scene before they walk out onto the Crucible and he very carefully tells Donna and Jack and Rose that they were brilliant and then steps out to face the music? That's a beautiful scene. As is the bit right after when he's desperate to save Donna. (And the TARDIS is all proactive in keeping Donna inside so TenToo can be born. 'Tis VERY NEAT.) Mind you then Ten goes all emo again, which is a bit of a drawback... Because the thing about Ten is that he's far too good at lying to himself (and good grief, he's SUCH a hypocrite re. TenToo). Here, allow me to demonstrate:



I just can't help but think that if it had been Eleven there with Davros, with River trying to destroy something or other in order to save the day, the whole thing would have fallen completely flat...

Davros: 'LOOK SHE IS A MURDERER BECAUSE OF YOU!'
Eleven: 'And...?'

(Can't help myself. But seriously, imagine if Ten HAD regenerated at the end of TSE. Has anyone written JE with Eleven instead of Ten? I'd read the hell out of that. And no, I'm NOT writing it myself - I've already got the Seeker's version knocking about in my head. There are limits to how many different versions I can write of something. ANYWAY. Ten is waaaay too emo over all his Companions being badass.)

Other random thoughts: This episode again brought home how *incredibly* Earth-centric RTD-Who is. I don't suppose there's anything wrong with this per se, but compare with AGMGTW... Ten is completely focussed on humans, whereas Eleven has friends all over the place.

Oh and OMG the Doctor-worship is off the scale. Jack & Sarah Jane (and Rose) are all 'DOCTOR! I NEED THE DOCTOR!' Mind you it is sort-of balanced with Jackie being all 'I NEED TO FIND ROSE!' and Martha who is a) Focussed on her family, and b) focussed on her mission. Go Martha.

Aaaand I need to go to bed. Plz behave yourself. Thank you. ♥

Comments

[promethia_tenk]

Well that would certainly increase my appreciation of it.
I don't care what anyone else says; Rex was hysterical and awesome.

Because he looks at you with those big sad eyes and logical thoughts cease all all you want is to make him happy.
Nice people are evil and not to be trusted.

Incidentally this sorta made me grumble about Donna's end (again). Well not her end, but the general fannish response.
I know what you mean--there's this sort of universal condemnation and general assumption that, yes, maybe the Doctor "had" to wipe Donna's memory, but that doesn't matter because he was WRONG. Well, how would everyone have felt if he had let her die? Really? Really?

Which brings me to my second point: Is DEATH preferable to a life without travelling with the Doctor? Really? Is that a message that should be put across?
Silly Elisi, don't you know that traveling with the Doctor is the only legitimate life choice in the universe and nothing else really matters except maybe if you set up an orphan asylum for blind puppies and travel the world protesting malaria but even then you will always just be waiting for the Doctor to come back again? *shakes head*

OH GOD I'M RAMBLING AGAIN STOP ME.
IT'S FUNNY HOW YOU THINK I COULD DO THAT AT ALL.

[elisi]

I don't care what anyone else says; Rex was hysterical and awesome.
As a dig at a stereotype, he was indeed fabulous! <3

Nice people are evil and not to be trusted.
Glad you have now understood this. (Like that saying goes: You know where you are with liars, it's people telling the truth that you've got to watch out for.)

I know what you mean--there's this sort of universal condemnation and general assumption that, yes, maybe the Doctor "had" to wipe Donna's memory, but that doesn't matter because he was WRONG. Well, how would everyone have felt if he had let her die? Really? Really?
I think in many cases it's people bringing their issues to the story (a little like people shouting at RTD about homophobia after he killed Ianto). Not that people's issues aren't legitimate, and of course the scene is HUGELY upsetting, but it was the *only* thin he could have done. (If he'd let her die, it would have been like the spacewhale - he would no longer be the Doctor, and would have to go find a new name.) Also I love this post, and generally get cross at people who somehow seem to value Donna only for what she achieves with the Doctor, and not for who she is herself. (Hey I really have ISSUES, don't I? Funny how these things work.)

Silly Elisi, don't you know that traveling with the Doctor is the only legitimate life choice in the universe and nothing else really matters except maybe if you set up an orphan asylum for blind puppies and travel the world protesting malaria but even then you will always just be waiting for the Doctor to come back again? *shakes head*
I like Amy.

IT'S FUNNY HOW YOU THINK I COULD DO THAT AT ALL.
Rather. You seem to be my enabler... ;)

[promethia_tenk]

Glad you have now understood this. (Like that saying goes: You know where you are with liars, it's people telling the truth that you've got to watch out for.)
Oh, all nice people are liars. Hence my very great love of Cordelia Chase, around whom everyone will always know exactly where they stand.

I think in many cases it's people bringing their issues to the story (a little like people shouting at RTD about homophobia after he killed Ianto). Not that people's issues aren't legitimate, and of course the scene is HUGELY upsetting, but it was the *only* thin he could have done.
Yeah, if I'm gonna be upset with anybody for that one, it would be with Rusty for going there at all (though, as I said before, don't really care), especially in comparison with the end of season one where, I think, narratively Rose really should have had to sacrifice more for taking the time vortex into her. I can't find it in me to get worked up at the Doctor's actions here, though.

Also I love this post, and generally get cross at people who somehow seem to value Donna only for what she achieves with the Doctor, and not for who she is herself. (Hey I really have ISSUES, don't I? Funny how these things work.)
Will read in a sec, but if fans are guilty of that, definitely think Rusty was guilty first.

Rather. You seem to be my enabler... ;)
I just like you to be happy.

[promethia_tenk]

Also I love this post, and generally get cross at people who somehow seem to value Donna only for what she achieves with the Doctor, and not for who she is herself. (Hey I really have ISSUES, don't I? Funny how these things work.)
Oh, that is a *very* good argument, and I shall subscribe to it. Also funny how what some of the commenters are saying about how Donna would force the Doctor to show up at family events is so very like Amy at the end of the Christmas special. I mean, there was a water gun instead of slapping, but otherwise . . . But then I do think Amy echoes Donna in some key ways: ginger, bossy but insecure, a volatile combination of childlike trust and adoration with stubborn, combative suspiciousness, a big theme of memory running throughout. Interesting how heavily Moff Who comes down on the side that we are who we are (and who we are to each other), and that will out no matter what universe and what memories you're working with.

[promethia_tenk]

Actually, you know what does bother me about Donna's ending? It's the whole DoctorDonna thing. It's hard for me to feel excited about her saving the day because the means are so icky and wrong. I feel like that's the far worse violation and that having her memories wiped is just the distasteful but necessary cure.

[elisi]

I will get back to you, but someone indeed wrote a fascinating and deeply disturbing post on this subject, and I am of the exact same opinion as you.

Yay! I found it, and it's by topaz_eyes and it generally pulls S4 together in beautiful ways far beyond what Rusty intended, I think:

Donna Noble's Midnight: Parallels, Foreshadowing, and "Journey's End

Verrrrrry good.

[promethia_tenk]

That is excellent, thanks. An interesting parallel with Midnight.

I think I'd even like to de-emphasize the idea that something Time Lord is taking over her brain? Because that carries with it ideas of something bigger, stronger, obviously alien, and which, the show gives as easy justification for why she needs to be mindwiped, is killing her. I feel like those are simplistic threats? Whereas what freaks me out is the fact that this is not Donna, and the way in which it is not Donna is nearly irrelevant.

[elisi]

I feel like those are simplistic threats? Whereas what freaks me out is the fact that this is not Donna, and the way in which it is not Donna is nearly irrelevant.
Interesting distinction, but yes, that makes perfect sense.