Always the same 'ship, just with different couples...

[elisi]

I've been re-reading Gaudy Night (like you do), and one sentence suddenly stood out. Well a lot of them did, obviously, because it's a wonderful book, but I've been thinking about how Peter and Harriet are my 'shipping blueprint, and there is was, perfectly:

That, then, was what he wanted her for. For some reason, obscure to herself and probably also to him, she had the power to force him outside his defences.

Because that is it - the thing that runs through every couple I've ever shipped. Buffy/Spike (although there it is him forcing her out of her defences), Jack/Ianto, Doctor/River, and - with a slight variation, in that these couples are also very old - Spike/Angel and Doctor/Master. Heck you can add Cutter/Leetah to that list, and Howl/Sophie - or even Elizabeth/Darcy... (um, not me. The Austen version.)

To quote the book again (it makes more sense in context - there's poetry involved - but I think it works on its own):

He did not want to forget, or to be quiet, or to be spared things, or to stay put. All he wanted was some kind of central stability, and he was apparently ready to take anything that came along, so long as it stimulated him to keep that precarious balance.

It's not about the strength of their [~romantic~] feelings (how *do* you measure love, anyway?), or about making each other happy; indeed a lot of my 'ships have at various points tried to kill each other. But that connection is still there, that ability to force honesty from each other:

"And I can fool Giles, and I can fool my friends, but I can't fool myself. Or Spike, for some reason."

"It's not pretty, but it's real."

I could go on, but I think this speaks for itself pretty well. All thoughts welcome.

(promethia_tenk have you finished it yet? *looks hopeful* My ear is open like a greedy shark to catch the tunings of a voice divine...)

Comments

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I very much agree with that take, the scene you quoted might be the pointed where I started to ship Buffy/Spike.

The notion of two characters being able to challenge each other, to get each other out of their comfort zone is extremely attractive. And so is of course the connection between two people being so strong that they can see past each others masks.

It's what made me fall in love so much with Richard and Alec, the main couple of Ellen Kushner's Riverside books lately.

[elisi]

I very much agree with that take, the scene you quoted might be the pointed where I started to ship Buffy/Spike.
They are *ridiculously* quotable. I had to be very strict and not include more quotes, because I could have filled a whole post. Right from 'Do we really need weapons for this?' they just *clicked*...

The notion of two characters being able to challenge each other, to get each other out of their comfort zone is extremely attractive. And so is of course the connection between two people being so strong that they can see past each others masks.
Exactly. And in many ways it's the opposite of 'falling in love', because when you're in love you tend not to see clearly. (I'm not putting that kind of story down, but it just doesn't hold the same kind of attraction.)

It's what made me fall in love so much with Richard and Alec, the main couple of Ellen Kushner's Riverside books lately.
Thanks for the rec! :)

[kathyh]

But that connection is still there, that ability to force honesty from each other

Yes, that's always crucial for me too. I think in all cases they are characters who can truly be themselves with each other, or are learning to be.

I love "Gaudy Night". My mother's copy actually dropped to bits as we'd both read it so often :)

[elisi]

Yes, that's always crucial for me too. I think in all cases they are characters who can truly be themselves with each other, or are learning to be.
*nods* And I find that utterly fascinating.

I love "Gaudy Night". My mother's copy actually dropped to bits as we'd both read it so often :)
I'm not surprised! *g*

(And this almost counts as icon snap, I think.)

[promethia_tenk]

Haha. You loon. I believe the done thing here would be to reply with one of those space shark icons, but as I don't have one, let's pretend that I've done so.

It's Thanksgiving here, so I don't have time for a lengthy reply right now (or to your fic, which I loved), but I'll be back.

Long story short, you took the words right out of my brain. And the book was fantastic right to the end. It was one of those rare books where I finished the last page, lay staring at the ceiling for several moments, and then turned back to the first page and began again. Because there really was nothing else to be done *grin*

I suspect the parallels between Peter/Harriet and Doctor/River are gonna run deep. Have you ever seen Gravity? As far as I'm concerned, it is the Doctor/River vid.

[elisi]

Haha. You loon. I believe the done thing here would be to reply with one of those space shark icons, but as I don't have one, let's pretend that I've done so.
Done. And I love that quote TO DISTRACTION and have never been able to use it. So. *pets imaginary shark*

It's Thanksgiving here, so I don't have time for a lengthy reply right now (or to your fic, which I loved), but I'll be back.
Oh I'm not going anywhere... (And yay you liked the fic! \o/) Also, have a lovely Thanksgiving. :) ETA: Thanksgiving in BtVS terms. V. short!

Long story short, you took the words right out of my brain. And the book was fantastic right to the end. It was one of those rare books where I finished the last page, lay staring at the ceiling for several moments, and then turned back to the first page and began again. Because there really was nothing else to be done *grin*
*beams* I'm nearing the end and yeah... *happy sigh* ETA2: Actually, I shall head straight for the book shelves and get down 'Busman's Honeymoon'!

I suspect the parallels between Peter/Harriet and Doctor/River are gonna run deep.
No kidding! When you've got the time, we can sit down and pick 'em apart. :)

Have you ever seen Gravity? As far as I'm concerned, it is the Doctor/River vid.
I have! Although my favourite (if I had to choose) is Run With Me...

[promethia_tenk]

Also, have a lovely Thanksgiving. :) ETA: Thanksgiving in BtVS terms. V. short!
Thank you! It was very nice and family-filled and all those good things. (Clip--tee hee!)

Actually, I shall head straight for the book shelves and get down 'Busman's Honeymoon'!
Alas, that one is even more far-flung than Gaudy Night was! Our county's library system has an appalling habit of spreading the books of a series out to different libraries . . .

No kidding! When you've got the time, we can sit down and pick 'em apart. :)
I shall try to formulate some thoughts. I know I kept stumbling over passages as I read and saying things to myself like 'well, thank goodness I wrote that fic already, or I would have felt like I'd stolen it from here' or 'heh, just yesterday I was trying to convince someone that that's going to be important.'

I have! Although my favourite (if I had to choose) is Run With Me...
I'd forgotten about that one. She's made a whole lot of stuff that I love . . .

That, then, was what he wanted her for. For some reason, obscure to herself and probably also to him, she had the power to force him outside his defences.
There is something compelling about this line, and I think I see it in a lot of my ships too. I've been trying to decide if maybe it's too general, like it could be applied to a majority of ships, but maybe not. I'd say it definitely highlights what I liked about House and Cameron on the show House. That ship got a lot of flack from a lot of corners, and I don't even know that I wanted them together, romantically, for reasons having to do with ages and power imbalances, but the fact remains that Cameron was the only person who could consistently get House to change his mind, and she was almost always right about it. They could always get under each other's skin. And on BSG I shipped, in a traditional sense, Roslin and Adama (who are awesome, btw), but I hate-shipped Roslin and Baltar even more (how would you describe a shipper-level intensity of interest in two enemies?) because they could both get to each other in that way.

[elisi]

Thank you! It was very nice and family-filled and all those good things. (Clip--tee hee!)
Yay - good things are good. :) (And that clip is why all Buffy fans tend to wish each 'Happy Ritual Sacrifice With Pie Day'.)

Alas, that one is even more far-flung than Gaudy Night was! Our county's library system has an appalling habit of spreading the books of a series out to different libraries . . .
Oh dear. But it is worth waiting for. It is, in the author's own words, 'a romantic comedy with detective interruptions' and I can't better that description. (I am re-reading, and am realising that I pretty much know it by heart, and I keep feeling like Eleven at Amy's wedding...)

I shall try to formulate some thoughts. I know I kept stumbling over passages as I read and saying things to myself like 'well, thank goodness I wrote that fic already, or I would have felt like I'd stolen it from here' or 'heh, just yesterday I was trying to convince someone that that's going to be important.'
Heee! Yes, I know the feeling. ETA: Actually - to throw some topics of conversation out there, two things that stood out for me this time in that they reflect Doctor/River:

1) 'She had once more lost all consciousness of him except as the familiar intelligence that lived and moved so curiously behind an oddly amusing set of features.' I think there is a LOT of River in that, especially the way she can focus entirely on the problem at hand, seeing him as only someone extremely capable, and not as the man she loves. Plus, there's the added dimension in her case of loving the man behind the features, since the features change...

2. 'She knew enough, herself, to read the sounds a little with her brains, laboriously unwinding the twined chains of melody link by link. Peter, she felt sure, could hear every part separately and simultaneously, each independent and equal, separate but inseparable, moving over and under and through, ravishing heart and mind together.' Just substitute 'time' for 'music'...

I'd forgotten about that one. She's made a whole lot of stuff that I love . . .
It's definitely the vid I've watched the most, and I even bought the song. It's my Doctor/River song bar none... (Also the vidder has just this morning posted another vid!!!)

I've been trying to decide if maybe it's too general, like it could be applied to a majority of ships, but maybe not.
I think the key thing is if you're able to dismiss [romantic] love from the equation - because love is usually the thing that makes people lower their guard, but this is a different, and deeper kind of connection, that's not dependent on feelings (see the Doctor and River working together beautifully even when they're in the middle of an argument). And I've only seen the first few seasons of House, but I have to agree - their relationship worked very well indeed. And Best Enemies is ABSOLUTELY a real ship. :)

[promethia_tenk]

Oh dear. But it is worth waiting for. It is, in the author's own words, 'a romantic comedy with detective interruptions' . . .
I read what I could on Google Books, which is about the first fifty pages, with two pages omitted every eight pages. That certainly makes for an interesting reading experience . . . . Bleah, I am impatient.

I keep feeling like Eleven at Amy's wedding...
Please, please tell me there is giraffe dancing.

I think there is a LOT of River in that, especially the way she can focus entirely on the problem at hand, seeing him as only someone extremely capable, and not as the man she loves.
Very much agreed. I think a lot of their working dynamic is similar. In particular I was struck with a line where Wimsey tells Harriet he's relying on her reflexive honesty, which the Doctor will as well . . . once he knows what's good for him. There's also something in Harriet and River's mutual ability to stand back and be critical instead of getting borne away by the charm as so many others do. Wimsey and the Doctor share the gift of gab, not just as an amusement, but as one of their chief talents. They both combine a certain hardened edge with a tendency to emotionally invest, and share a similar life style: being, essentially, of independent means, they choose to use their time to pop into situations and solve problems. I'll think of more, but I have to get to bed here . . . .

Just substitute 'time' for 'music'...
Oooo. Nice.

I think the key thing is if you're able to dismiss [romantic] love from the equation - because love is usually the thing that makes people lower their guard, but this is a different, and deeper kind of connection, that's not dependent on feelings
It's a very different way to think of ships, certainly. (The "what counts as a ship" discussion is always interesting, I think.)

And Best Enemies is ABSOLUTELY a real ship. :)
Naturally I should expect you to say that ;-)

[elisi]

I read what I could on Google Books, which is about the first fifty pages, with two pages omitted every eight pages. That certainly makes for an interesting reading experience . . . . Bleah, I am impatient.
*laughs* If you tell me which pages you missed, I could scan them for you?

Please, please tell me there is giraffe dancing.
Alas no. But it makes me feel like dancing. (Part of it is the characters. They're all just delightful.)

Very much agreed. I think a lot of their working dynamic is similar. In particular I was struck with a line where Wimsey tells Harriet he's relying on her reflexive honesty, which the Doctor will as well . . . once he knows what's good for him.
I think it's what River gives him naturally, much like Harriet. (And somehow this works perfectly with the fact that she'll lie through her teeth. Um - go read my fic, which I have just posted, I touch on this.)

There's also something in Harriet and River's mutual ability to stand back and be critical instead of getting borne away by the charm as so many others do.
*nods a lot* ("Oh Doctor, why do I ever let you out...")

Wimsey and the Doctor share the gift of gab, not just as an amusement, but as one of their chief talents.
No kidding! Plus they can talk nonsense whilst at the same time thinking about something entirely different.

They both combine a certain hardened edge with a tendency to emotionally invest, and share a similar life style: being, essentially, of independent means, they choose to use their time to pop into situations and solve problems.
Oh this. Yes. One of my favourite descriptions of the Doctor is that he's 'the scion of Empire', and there is so much of the aristocrat in him (I'm reminded of Harriet's '600 years of rule' or however she put it). And his position naturally lends itself to the one of judge, the one above it all. Oh and one of Wimsey's angriest moments is in 'Have His Carcass' when he has to remind I-forget-his-name (the murderer) of who (and what) he is. The Doctor wears his superiority with similar grace.

Oooo. Nice.
I've always loved that passage, and it just fits time beautifully. :)

It's a very different way to think of ships, certainly. (The "what counts as a ship" discussion is always interesting, I think.)
If someone 'ships it, then it's a ship. The problems arise when you begin to talk about what's canon...

Naturally I should expect you to say that ;-)
*grins*

[promethia_tenk]

Under duress, I have moved onto to Thrones, Dominations, which the library did have, but heck, what's a little out-of-order narrative amongst friends?

I reached the following dialogue and practically dropped my book:
"I thought husbands and wives were always placed apart."
"No; for the first six months after marriage we are allowed to sit together."
"Are we allowed to hold hands under the table?"
"Best not, I should think."

Hand on my heart, I wrote the following dialogue for the fic exchange fic over a month ago:
"What is ‘fluff’ anyway?"
"I believe anything excessively sweet and romantic without real dramatic weight."
"I thought that was ‘schmoop’?"
"One would think so, but technically schmoop requires a caramel coating."
"Huh. Learn something new . . . . So no fluff, then. Are we allowed to hold hands?"
"Better not risk it . . . ."

*eyes book in creeped-out fashion*

ETA: My dialogue probably makes more sense if I specify that they're negotiating over what the prompt means, the prompt having requested no fluff.

[promethia_tenk]

So, the following popped into my head while I was reading, and I had a long laugh over it. You may be the only other person who might appreciate it, though, so here you go:

[elisi]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That is UTTERLY brilliant! Although now I'm thinking of duck ponds without ducks...

(Really, that line is one of my favourites ever ever ever! Plz get out of my brain!)

ETA: Went and made a macro of my own. Not silly so much as profound, since that book *does* speak a lot of truth...

[promethia_tenk]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That is UTTERLY brilliant!
*grins* I was hoping you'd think so. Yay esoteric humor.

Really, that line is one of my favourites ever ever ever!
It's a fabulous line. *loves*

Plz get out of my brain!
No. Shan't. =D

ETA: Went and made a macro of my own. Not silly so much as profound, since that book *does* speak a lot of truth...
Mmmm. So true. That one definitely jumped out at me too--nice connection. Oh, Ten, stop making me pity you.

[elisi]

*grins* I was hoping you'd think so. Yay esoteric humor.
Indeed!

It's a fabulous line. *loves*
Plus, it speaks the truth. Stuff like that is gold dust!

No. Shan't. =D
Hee! 'S OK, I don't want you to go, really. :)

Mmmm. So true. That one definitely jumped out at me too--nice connection. Oh, Ten, stop making me pity you.
*pets Ten* I chose that cap 'cause it was so obvious, although I could have chosen almost any... F.ex. Eleven in The Beast Below is that to a T. The Doctor, bless him, tries to run away from that truth I think, because he knows the price. And yet he can't leave his principles behind.

[revdorothyl.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about how Peter and Harriet are my 'shipping blueprint.

I just realized that this is true for me, as well! Wow!

I mean, I had some favorite couples in television shows before I read Strong Poison (after seeing the first installment of the Edward Petherbridge version on TV and being unable to wait to get more Peter and Harriet) and became addicted to Dorothy L. Sayers. But once I'd finally encountered them, Peter and Harriet really did became the template for what I seek out in complex, mature relationships between independent and imperfect yet wonderfully gifted (in their own ways) individuals who stay very much themselves, only more so, once they finally manage to get together.

But I never realized until now, and that quote from Gaudy Night describes an important part of why it's so.

[elisi]

I just realized that this is true for me, as well! Wow!
It all makes sense, doesn't it?

But once I'd finally encountered them, Peter and Harriet really did became the template for what I seek out in complex, mature relationships between independent and imperfect yet wonderfully gifted (in their own ways) individuals who stay very much themselves, only more so, once they finally manage to get together.
Ooh I love how you put this. Yes, exactly.

But I never realized until now, and that quote from Gaudy Night describes an important part of why it's so.
It seriously made me sit up and take notice. The way you can see something lots of times, and then suddenly you see it with new eyes. :)

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

Obviously, I agree with this insanely much.

"And I can fool Giles, and I can fool my friends, but I can't fool myself. Or Spike, for some reason."

The best line. It's like this 5 second storm of hilarity in a total SRS BSNS angst scene.

It's not about the strength of their [~romantic~] feelings (how *do* you measure love, anyway?), or about making each other happy; indeed a lot of my 'ships have at various points tried to kill each other.

Hahaha, so much word.

[elisi]

Obviously, I agree with this insanely much.
*grins* I had to force myself not to write an essay in the comments to your post...

The best line. It's like this 5 second storm of hilarity in a total SRS BSNS angst scene.
The WHOLE EPISODE is made of nothing but win - that line is just the icing on the cake. *g* (And it's not just good from a Spuffy perspective - Angel spends most of the time *protecting* Spike... *g*)

Hahaha, so much word.
I almost wrote something about the debates about whether Buffy loved or was in love with Spike, and the utter confusion this always instills in me - esp because the implication is that 'in love' is better. Which - wtf? Being in love is lovely, but I honestly couldn't care less. That's so far down my list that I hardly ever give it a second thought. What they had went far beyond any fuzzy glow.

(Plus - to step sideways to s8 for a second - Twangel's 'Don't you want to be happy?' is like an anti-kink made real. What's happiness got to do with ANYTHING? Compare and contrast with 'I can be alone with you here'. *sigh*)

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

And it's not just good from a Spuffy perspective - Angel spends most of the time *protecting* Spike... *g*

I know Oh my heart.

What they had went far beyond any fuzzy glow.

Total word. I so dislike this preoccupation with romantic love - as though its superior to other kinds when in actual fact, romantic love is the most fickle type of love there is. (That said, I do think Buffy was in love with Spike, but that was quite secondary to the non-romantic love she had for him.)

What's happiness got to do with ANYTHING?

Oh God, SO MUCH WORD.

[elisi]

I know Oh my heart.
THEIR LOVE IS SO PURE!

Total word. I so dislike this preoccupation with romantic love - as though its superior to other kinds when in actual fact, romantic love is the most fickle type of love there is.
Exactly. Although with Buffy and Spike there is clearly a *connection* from the word go, and something that is far from romantic. :)

(That said, I do think Buffy was in love with Spike, but that was quite secondary to the non-romantic love she had for him.)
*nods a lot* I think she was definitely falling (or on the verge of), but - like she said - 'Does it have do mean something?' It's a secondary issue. (Did you every read my 'It was... a hello'? It's my attempt at dealing with Buffy's hugely conflicting emotions in Chosen.)

Oh God, SO MUCH WORD.
Plus, since when did sex = happiness? I'm pretty sure she learned the fallacy of THAT idea during S6. Plus, you know - hundreds of dead Slayers! Good GOD I hate that story.

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

Although with Buffy and Spike there is clearly a *connection* from the word go, and something that is far from romantic. :)

Very true. Synergism. :D

Oh, I hadn't read that one, but I have now! “It could never be just a hello.” YESYESYES. I LOVE YOU. Also: Her love for him is like a desert flower - a seed that’s hidden until a sudden rainfall brings it out in bloom. It is now folding in on itself - laying in waiting until next time. If ever there is a next time. So perfect. I seriously can't think of a better metaphor for B/A. Oh Buffy.

Plus, you know - hundreds of dead Slayers! Good GOD I hate that story.

UGH. PREACH.

[elisi]

Very true. Synergism. :D
Or kyerumption. :)

Oh, I hadn't read that one, but I have now! “It could never be just a hello.” YESYESYES. I LOVE YOU.
Trust you to pull out the line that THE WHOLE FIC WAS WRITTEN AROUND! Once I began thinking about it, it was just SO OBVIOUS!

So perfect. I seriously can't think of a better metaphor for B/A. Oh Buffy.
Aw, thank you. And I actually have another metaphor here (plus metaphors for S/B and S/A) - VERY short. Anyway, I do think it's a neat image, and I was v. pleased when I thought of it.

UGH. PREACH.
Oh you ain't seen nothin' yet... *g*

[yourlibrarian]

That, then, was what he wanted her for. For some reason, obscure to herself and probably also to him, she had the power to force him outside his defences.

Very interesting -- in fact I'd say an awful lot of fanfic in general is predicated on this (even when it doesn't exist in canon).

[elisi]

*nods* Everyone wants their couple to have that *special* connection, although I think in many cases people think that love is the magic ingredient, since love does, to a great extent, make people reveal more of who they are to the object of their affection.