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Always the same 'ship, just with different couples...
I've been re-reading Gaudy Night (like you do), and one sentence suddenly stood out. Well a lot of them did, obviously, because it's a wonderful book, but I've been thinking about how Peter and Harriet are my 'shipping blueprint, and there is was, perfectly:
That, then, was what he wanted her for. For some reason, obscure to herself and probably also to him, she had the power to force him outside his defences.
Because that is it - the thing that runs through every couple I've ever shipped. Buffy/Spike (although there it is him forcing her out of her defences), Jack/Ianto, Doctor/River, and - with a slight variation, in that these couples are also very old - Spike/Angel and Doctor/Master. Heck you can add Cutter/Leetah to that list, and Howl/Sophie - or even Elizabeth/Darcy... (um, not me. The Austen version.)
To quote the book again (it makes more sense in context - there's poetry involved - but I think it works on its own):
He did not want to forget, or to be quiet, or to be spared things, or to stay put. All he wanted was some kind of central stability, and he was apparently ready to take anything that came along, so long as it stimulated him to keep that precarious balance.
It's not about the strength of their [~romantic~] feelings (how *do* you measure love, anyway?), or about making each other happy; indeed a lot of my 'ships have at various points tried to kill each other. But that connection is still there, that ability to force honesty from each other:
"And I can fool Giles, and I can fool my friends, but I can't fool myself. Or Spike, for some reason."
"It's not pretty, but it's real."
I could go on, but I think this speaks for itself pretty well. All thoughts welcome.
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promethia_tenk have you finished it yet? *looks hopeful* My ear is open like a greedy shark to catch the tunings of a voice divine...)
That, then, was what he wanted her for. For some reason, obscure to herself and probably also to him, she had the power to force him outside his defences.
Because that is it - the thing that runs through every couple I've ever shipped. Buffy/Spike (although there it is him forcing her out of her defences), Jack/Ianto, Doctor/River, and - with a slight variation, in that these couples are also very old - Spike/Angel and Doctor/Master. Heck you can add Cutter/Leetah to that list, and Howl/Sophie - or even Elizabeth/Darcy... (um, not me. The Austen version.)
To quote the book again (it makes more sense in context - there's poetry involved - but I think it works on its own):
He did not want to forget, or to be quiet, or to be spared things, or to stay put. All he wanted was some kind of central stability, and he was apparently ready to take anything that came along, so long as it stimulated him to keep that precarious balance.
It's not about the strength of their [~romantic~] feelings (how *do* you measure love, anyway?), or about making each other happy; indeed a lot of my 'ships have at various points tried to kill each other. But that connection is still there, that ability to force honesty from each other:
"And I can fool Giles, and I can fool my friends, but I can't fool myself. Or Spike, for some reason."
"It's not pretty, but it's real."
I could go on, but I think this speaks for itself pretty well. All thoughts welcome.
(
promethia_tenk have you finished it yet? *looks hopeful* My ear is open like a greedy shark to catch the tunings of a voice divine...)
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Done. And I love that quote TO DISTRACTION and have never been able to use it. So. *pets imaginary shark*
It's Thanksgiving here, so I don't have time for a lengthy reply right now (or to your fic, which I loved), but I'll be back.
Oh I'm not going anywhere... (And yay you liked the fic! \o/) Also, have a lovely Thanksgiving. :) ETA: Thanksgiving in BtVS terms. V. short!
Long story short, you took the words right out of my brain. And the book was fantastic right to the end. It was one of those rare books where I finished the last page, lay staring at the ceiling for several moments, and then turned back to the first page and began again. Because there really was nothing else to be done *grin*
*beams* I'm nearing the end and yeah... *happy sigh* ETA2: Actually, I shall head straight for the book shelves and get down 'Busman's Honeymoon'!
I suspect the parallels between Peter/Harriet and Doctor/River are gonna run deep.
No kidding! When you've got the time, we can sit down and pick 'em apart. :)
Have you ever seen Gravity? As far as I'm concerned, it is the Doctor/River vid.
I have! Although my favourite (if I had to choose) is Run With Me...
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Thank you! It was very nice and family-filled and all those good things. (Clip--tee hee!)
Actually, I shall head straight for the book shelves and get down 'Busman's Honeymoon'!
Alas, that one is even more far-flung than Gaudy Night was! Our county's library system has an appalling habit of spreading the books of a series out to different libraries . . .
No kidding! When you've got the time, we can sit down and pick 'em apart. :)
I shall try to formulate some thoughts. I know I kept stumbling over passages as I read and saying things to myself like 'well, thank goodness I wrote that fic already, or I would have felt like I'd stolen it from here' or 'heh, just yesterday I was trying to convince someone that that's going to be important.'
I have! Although my favourite (if I had to choose) is Run With Me...
I'd forgotten about that one. She's made a whole lot of stuff that I love . . .
That, then, was what he wanted her for. For some reason, obscure to herself and probably also to him, she had the power to force him outside his defences.
There is something compelling about this line, and I think I see it in a lot of my ships too. I've been trying to decide if maybe it's too general, like it could be applied to a majority of ships, but maybe not. I'd say it definitely highlights what I liked about House and Cameron on the show House. That ship got a lot of flack from a lot of corners, and I don't even know that I wanted them together, romantically, for reasons having to do with ages and power imbalances, but the fact remains that Cameron was the only person who could consistently get House to change his mind, and she was almost always right about it. They could always get under each other's skin. And on BSG I shipped, in a traditional sense, Roslin and Adama (who are awesome, btw), but I hate-shipped Roslin and Baltar even more (how would you describe a shipper-level intensity of interest in two enemies?) because they could both get to each other in that way.
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Yay - good things are good. :) (And that clip is why all Buffy fans tend to wish each 'Happy Ritual Sacrifice With Pie Day'.)
Alas, that one is even more far-flung than Gaudy Night was! Our county's library system has an appalling habit of spreading the books of a series out to different libraries . . .
Oh dear. But it is worth waiting for. It is, in the author's own words, 'a romantic comedy with detective interruptions' and I can't better that description. (I am re-reading, and am realising that I pretty much know it by heart, and I keep feeling like Eleven at Amy's wedding...)
I shall try to formulate some thoughts. I know I kept stumbling over passages as I read and saying things to myself like 'well, thank goodness I wrote that fic already, or I would have felt like I'd stolen it from here' or 'heh, just yesterday I was trying to convince someone that that's going to be important.'
Heee! Yes, I know the feeling. ETA: Actually - to throw some topics of conversation out there, two things that stood out for me this time in that they reflect Doctor/River:
1) 'She had once more lost all consciousness of him except as the familiar intelligence that lived and moved so curiously behind an oddly amusing set of features.' I think there is a LOT of River in that, especially the way she can focus entirely on the problem at hand, seeing him as only someone extremely capable, and not as the man she loves. Plus, there's the added dimension in her case of loving the man behind the features, since the features change...
2. 'She knew enough, herself, to read the sounds a little with her brains, laboriously unwinding the twined chains of melody link by link. Peter, she felt sure, could hear every part separately and simultaneously, each independent and equal, separate but inseparable, moving over and under and through, ravishing heart and mind together.' Just substitute 'time' for 'music'...
I'd forgotten about that one. She's made a whole lot of stuff that I love . . .
It's definitely the vid I've watched the most, and I even bought the song. It's my Doctor/River song bar none... (Also the vidder has just this morning posted another vid!!!)
I've been trying to decide if maybe it's too general, like it could be applied to a majority of ships, but maybe not.
I think the key thing is if you're able to dismiss [romantic] love from the equation - because love is usually the thing that makes people lower their guard, but this is a different, and deeper kind of connection, that's not dependent on feelings (see the Doctor and River working together beautifully even when they're in the middle of an argument). And I've only seen the first few seasons of House, but I have to agree - their relationship worked very well indeed. And Best Enemies is ABSOLUTELY a real ship. :)
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I read what I could on Google Books, which is about the first fifty pages, with two pages omitted every eight pages. That certainly makes for an interesting reading experience . . . . Bleah, I am impatient.
I keep feeling like Eleven at Amy's wedding...
Please, please tell me there is giraffe dancing.
I think there is a LOT of River in that, especially the way she can focus entirely on the problem at hand, seeing him as only someone extremely capable, and not as the man she loves.
Very much agreed. I think a lot of their working dynamic is similar. In particular I was struck with a line where Wimsey tells Harriet he's relying on her reflexive honesty, which the Doctor will as well . . . once he knows what's good for him. There's also something in Harriet and River's mutual ability to stand back and be critical instead of getting borne away by the charm as so many others do. Wimsey and the Doctor share the gift of gab, not just as an amusement, but as one of their chief talents. They both combine a certain hardened edge with a tendency to emotionally invest, and share a similar life style: being, essentially, of independent means, they choose to use their time to pop into situations and solve problems. I'll think of more, but I have to get to bed here . . . .
Just substitute 'time' for 'music'...
Oooo. Nice.
I think the key thing is if you're able to dismiss [romantic] love from the equation - because love is usually the thing that makes people lower their guard, but this is a different, and deeper kind of connection, that's not dependent on feelings
It's a very different way to think of ships, certainly. (The "what counts as a ship" discussion is always interesting, I think.)
And Best Enemies is ABSOLUTELY a real ship. :)
Naturally I should expect you to say that ;-)
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*laughs* If you tell me which pages you missed, I could scan them for you?
Please, please tell me there is giraffe dancing.
Alas no. But it makes me feel like dancing. (Part of it is the characters. They're all just delightful.)
Very much agreed. I think a lot of their working dynamic is similar. In particular I was struck with a line where Wimsey tells Harriet he's relying on her reflexive honesty, which the Doctor will as well . . . once he knows what's good for him.
I think it's what River gives him naturally, much like Harriet. (And somehow this works perfectly with the fact that she'll lie through her teeth. Um - go read my fic, which I have just posted, I touch on this.)
There's also something in Harriet and River's mutual ability to stand back and be critical instead of getting borne away by the charm as so many others do.
*nods a lot* ("Oh Doctor, why do I ever let you out...")
Wimsey and the Doctor share the gift of gab, not just as an amusement, but as one of their chief talents.
No kidding! Plus they can talk nonsense whilst at the same time thinking about something entirely different.
They both combine a certain hardened edge with a tendency to emotionally invest, and share a similar life style: being, essentially, of independent means, they choose to use their time to pop into situations and solve problems.
Oh this. Yes. One of my favourite descriptions of the Doctor is that he's 'the scion of Empire', and there is so much of the aristocrat in him (I'm reminded of Harriet's '600 years of rule' or however she put it). And his position naturally lends itself to the one of judge, the one above it all. Oh and one of Wimsey's angriest moments is in 'Have His Carcass' when he has to remind I-forget-his-name (the murderer) of who (and what) he is. The Doctor wears his superiority with similar grace.
Oooo. Nice.
I've always loved that passage, and it just fits time beautifully. :)
It's a very different way to think of ships, certainly. (The "what counts as a ship" discussion is always interesting, I think.)
If someone 'ships it, then it's a ship. The problems arise when you begin to talk about what's canon...
Naturally I should expect you to say that ;-)
*grins*
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I reached the following dialogue and practically dropped my book:
"I thought husbands and wives were always placed apart."
"No; for the first six months after marriage we are allowed to sit together."
"Are we allowed to hold hands under the table?"
"Best not, I should think."
Hand on my heart, I wrote the following dialogue for the fic exchange fic over a month ago:
"What is ‘fluff’ anyway?"
"I believe anything excessively sweet and romantic without real dramatic weight."
"I thought that was ‘schmoop’?"
"One would think so, but technically schmoop requires a caramel coating."
"Huh. Learn something new . . . . So no fluff, then. Are we allowed to hold hands?"
"Better not risk it . . . ."
*eyes book in creeped-out fashion*
ETA: My dialogue probably makes more sense if I specify that they're negotiating over what the prompt means, the prompt having requested no fluff.
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Indeed. Have you read The Nine Tailors yet, btw? It's set way before he meets Harriet, but it might be the best of the books, if we discount romance. It should keep you occupied at any rate. Oh and Murder Must Advertise is fabulous (he takes a job at an advertising agency)! :)
I reached the following dialogue and practically dropped my book:
I ADORE your story already!!! And that exchange is brilliant - you never know, people might think you are subtly referencing that scene...
My dialogue probably makes more sense if I specify that they're negotiating over what the prompt means, the prompt having requested no fluff.
And now *I* am wondering whether hand holding would count as fluff or not... *laughs at self*
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It was one of the first I checked out, together with Whose Body? because I'd remembered you'd said so, but I started with Whose Body? and ran up against my general dislike of detective stories, so I figured I'd better just get on to Harriet (the right ship is always such an effective hook). *checks the library's card catalog* Oooo . . . a volume with Nine Tailors and Busman's Honeymoon is "recently returned" to a branch within a reasonable distance. *wonders how much time to allot for reshelving*
I ADORE your story already!!!
:D Thanks! (I think that's the first bit I wrote. I was looking at my prompt going "fluff?" and debating distinctions. Naturally the characters joined in.)
you never know, people might think you are subtly referencing that scene...
Haha. Perhaps. It would be an awfully subtle catch, being such a passing thing. I wouldn't have paid much attention except that the wording was so eerily similar.
And now *I* am wondering whether hand holding would count as fluff or not... *laughs at self*
So much hinges on definitions; it does pay to sort these things out precisely ;-)
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Very wise principle, although Whose Body & The Nine Tailors are as different as can be - the former being her first ever book (and rather by the numbers) and the latter a well loved classic.
Oooo . . . a volume with Nine Tailors and Busman's Honeymoon is "recently returned" to a branch within a reasonable distance. *wonders how much time to allot for reshelving*
A marriage made in reading heaven! :)
:D Thanks! (I think that's the first bit I wrote. I was looking at my prompt going "fluff?" and debating distinctions. Naturally the characters joined in.)
Of course they did! :)
Haha. Perhaps. It would be an awfully subtle catch, being such a passing thing. I wouldn't have paid much attention except that the wording was so eerily similar.
Better mention something about the continuity of ducks... ;)
So much hinges on definitions; it does pay to sort these things out precisely ;-)
So much word!
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Also, owing to that insidious icon of mine, I had to have a long laugh at the following:
"I was just wishing for muffins."
I shall let you know how things go upon further reading. I certainly owe you a great deal for introducing me to the series in general.
I'm in a silly mood tonight, can you tell?
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Same here!
And have I told you of my great love of gothic church vaulting? Well, vaulting in general. It is very great. I wrote a paper.
I think this is one of the main reasons I love LJ - everyone has done these really interesting - and unexpected - things. :)
It is somewhat frustrating that there is so much talk of bells and comparatively little of hammerbeam trusses. I should write to the author to complain, but I am informed she is dead.
Heh. I'm sure the dear vicar will get a word or two in on the subject. (Plus she got lots of letters about all the things she got wrong about the bell ringing...)
Also, owing to that insidious icon of mine, I had to have a long laugh at the following:
LOL! Yes. And it's a lovely line.
I shall let you know how things go upon further reading. I certainly owe you a great deal for introducing me to the series in general.
Oh I love being an enabler. *evil grin* And I'm looking forward to your thoughts.
I'm in a silly mood tonight, can you tell?
Silly moods are brilliant thing. Btw how do you feel about 'Midnight'? It is the one episode that I genuinely dislike that everyone else loves. /randomly curious
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Really? Yay!
I think this is one of the main reasons I love LJ - everyone has done these really interesting - and unexpected - things. :)
Very true. I think the opportunities to learn about them tend to come up more readily than in real life, since one can conveniently ignore things like bunions and office politics and get right to the good stuff. (I studied architecture for several years, btw. Hence the love of vaulting. There's a few choice low-angle shots in Vampires of Venice that I like to rewind and rewatch. For the ceiling porn ;-)
(Plus she got lots of letters about all the things she got wrong about the bell ringing...)
I have no doubt. And I do love how she's co-opted the ringing patterns to provide the structure for the book. Mmmm, structure.
LOL! Yes. And it's a lovely line.
Echoes "I was just wishing for Romans" too. Or is that a standard British construction?
Oh I love being an enabler. *evil grin*
I well know the feeling, heh. I am admired and feared amongst friends for my ability to hook people on strong coffee and television shows. I am unrepentant.
Btw how do you feel about 'Midnight'? It is the one episode that I genuinely dislike that everyone else loves. /randomly curious
I have only seen it once, and saw enough in that viewing to know that once was not really enough to form a reliable opinion. I can well see why it is so admired--I think it's very impressively done. It was so uncomfortable to watch, though, that I'm not exactly rushing to repeat the experience. I think somehow it pressed a lot of the same buttons that awkward comedy does for me (ie: things like The Office), and I find awkward comedy almost impossible to deal with. I would like to give it another go at some point, though, in respect for the technical achievement.
In other news on the "unpopular opinions" front, I really like "Love and Monsters" and think "Fear Her" was one of the stronger episodes of the second season. I have recently learned that RTD did not do his usual rewrite job of that one . . . no comment.
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I love maps and stuff - it really helps to ground a story, I think. :)
Very true. I think the opportunities to learn about them tend to come up more readily than in real life, since one can conveniently ignore things like bunions and office politics and get right to the good stuff.
Indeed! :)
I studied architecture for several years, btw. Hence the love of vaulting. There's a few choice low-angle shots in Vampires of Venice that I like to rewind and rewatch. For the ceiling porn ;-)
That's brilliant! (I guess you're a fan of Ceiling!Cat then...)
I have no doubt. And I do love how she's co-opted the ringing patterns to provide the structure for the book. Mmmm, structure.
Structure good!
Echoes "I was just wishing for Romans" too. Or is that a standard British construction?
I don't think so... Although I guess it's something that people say? Um. I'm confused now.
I well know the feeling, heh. I am admired and feared amongst friends for my ability to hook people on strong coffee and television shows. I am unrepentant.
You get my Coffee!Ianto icon for that response. :) (I don't like coffee. But that's something else...)
I can well see why it is so admired--I think it's very impressively done.
Oh yes, same here. Very clever idea, well executed, the mob mentality was spot-on, the technical aspects brilliant - lots to admire.
It was so uncomfortable to watch, though, that I'm not exactly rushing to repeat the experience. I think somehow it pressed a lot of the same buttons that awkward comedy does for me (ie: things like The Office), and I find awkward comedy almost impossible to deal with.
Hurrah you understand! (I can't watch comedy like that either. It's almost painful.) Also, for me, there were two other things which clearly don't bother most people (and usually I can easily overlook this stuff, so it's odd that it grated here): 1) No one, at any point, tried to find something to write on. This irritates me beyond reason. 2) The Doctor keeps *saying* how clever he is, but he never actually demonstrates it. It's all tell and no show, and it's like an anti-kink? I dunno. It just hit all my off buttons.
In other news on the "unpopular opinions" front, I really like "Love and Monsters" and think "Fear Her" was one of the stronger episodes of the second season.
I think 'Love and Monsters' did what it set out to very well, but I hate that the lovely little group got killed and I'm still horrified at the 'paving-slab' ending. *shudders* 'Fear Her' is OK (I love the idea of the Isolis), and the girls love it. :)
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In my admittedly limited experience of Ceiling!Cat, his natural habitat seems to be boring white suburban ceilings. Should he ever develop a taste for baroque saucer domes, however, he would indeed suddenly be one of my favorite creatures.
I don't think so... Although I guess it's something that people say? Um. I'm confused now.
I know the phrasing kind of struck me, but all that means is it's not a common American phrasing.
You get my Coffee!Ianto icon for that response. :)
\o/ I've admired that one before.
Hurrah you understand! (I can't watch comedy like that either. It's almost painful.)
=D I've run into a few other people who feel similarly too. I do get to literally squirming in my seat with some of these things; it is physically uncomfortable.
No one, at any point, tried to find something to write on. This irritates me beyond reason.
Perhaps because, relatively speaking, it's such a "tight" episode? I know that, as much as I admire the fifth season Angels episodes (particularly for the role they play within the season as a whole), whenever I watch them I get peeved at Moffat for what he did with the Angels themselves. And under normal circumstances I couldn't give a damn what the monster of the week is or is not capable of--I tune that stuff right out. But the original concept for them was just so exceedingly elegant, and he trashed them. It's one thing for a writer to essentially show you that they're not giving much thought to a particular aspect of storytelling--it gives you license to ignore it. But when they seem to have put in the effort, the holes become glaring.
The Doctor keeps *saying* how clever he is, but he never actually demonstrates it. It's all tell and no show, and it's like an anti-kink? I dunno. It just hit all my off buttons.
This is a problem I have consistently with the entirety of RTD's run. Everyone is always saying "ooooo, the Doctor is so very clever" and it's such a facade of intelligence. There is NO SUBSTANCE behind it. *handwave, handwave* PROBLEM MAGICALLY SOLVED. "See, look, so clever!" *grrrrrr* It's like making a fetish of it, really. I don't remember enough of "Midnight" particularly to comment on how it plays out there.
I'm still horrified at the 'paving-slab' ending. *shudders*
This has honestly never bothered me, and I have no idea why. I guess because it's just so out there? I take it more in the spirit of, like, a Monty Python sketch than anything else.
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LOL!
I know the phrasing kind of struck me, but all that means is it's not a common American phrasing.
Sorry I can't help more...
\o/ I've admired that one before.
His coffee is magical. ;)
=D I've run into a few other people who feel similarly too. I do get to literally squirming in my seat with some of these things; it is physically uncomfortable.
Same here. Cringe-comedy is my least favourite thing ever. (Alan Partridge f.ex. - beloved throughout the land - is impossible for me to watch.)
Perhaps because, relatively speaking, it's such a "tight" episode?
Oh I'm sure. Plus it was written in about a week? But I was just sat there *waiting* for someone to say something and no one ever did and I was cross.
But the original concept for them was just so exceedingly elegant, and he trashed them.
Yeah, that never bothered *me*, although I know a lot of people feel like you.
This is a problem I have consistently with the entirety of RTD's run. Everyone is always saying "ooooo, the Doctor is so very clever" and it's such a facade of intelligence.
In Midnight it's the Doctor telling everyone that he is so very, very clever, but all he demonstrates is that he's very very nosy and bossy - not the same thing. My heart belongs to 'show, don't tell'...
This has honestly never bothered me, and I have no idea why. I guess because it's just so out there? I take it more in the spirit of, like, a Monty Python sketch than anything else.
I *still* can't believe that they got away with that 'love life' line, which made me laugh a lot at the time, but it's one of those episodes that if I think about it in any kind of detail it really bugs me. Ah well. I didn't want to sit here and complain... ;)
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Ah, knew the name but not what his deal was. Now I know to stay away. Thank you.
Yeah, that never bothered *me*, although I know a lot of people feel like you.
Weirdly, it did not bother me at first, I think because all the modifications were indeed very effective in the moment (was absolute freaking out when I realized the angels were about to start moving, for example). It was only when I'd had a chance to think it over that I got annoyed. But there was a lot about those episodes that I found uncharacteristically sloppy--taken as a whole, they are not favorites. It was only when the season was over and I saw how much of a thematic lynch pin are that I realized Moffat's attention had not been where it usually is. I rate them much higher now.
In Midnight it's the Doctor telling everyone that he is so very, very clever, but all he demonstrates is that he's very very nosy and bossy - not the same thing. My heart belongs to 'show, don't tell'...
Ah, ok, yes, that is a problem. Somehow it bothers me pretty equally no matter who it's coming from, though. *shrug* It's much the same issue that I have with the burns in the oncoming fire of universe speeches, again no matter who's giving them. It's like "well, isn't that just peachy--but what are you going to DO exactly?"
Ah well. I didn't want to sit here and complain... ;)
Indeed :-) Look: think happy thoughts.
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My pleasure. It's very, very well done and I cannot watch it.
taken as a whole, they are not favorites. It was only when the season was over and I saw how much of a thematic lynch pin are that I realized Moffat's attention had not been where it usually is. I rate them much higher now.
Interesting. Personally I have the ability to just plain ignore stuff that annoys me if I like something overall (see the way I can handwave RTD's plotholes).
Ah, ok, yes, that is a problem. Somehow it bothers me pretty equally no matter who it's coming from, though. *shrug*
Oh yes. Well it depends who is saying it. River in the Library? I'm cheering her on. But whoever it is needs to have earned it ("I'd trust this man to the end of the universe. And by the way - we've been."). The problem in Midnight is that he's amongst strangers and rather than giving them a reason to trust him, he tells them that they ought to trust him, because he says so...
It's much the same issue that I have with the burns in the oncoming fire of universe speeches, again no matter who's giving them. It's like "well, isn't that just peachy--but what are you going to DO exactly?"
Heh. You get my Oncoming Storm icon for that. :)
Indeed :-) Look: think happy thoughts.
Squee! They are gorgeous! And I recognise San Carlo alle Quattro Fontane - I watched a programme about Italian architecture (about a year ago?) and that church was featured. Also, I need to go to Cambridge some day. And Oxford...
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Hee. Yes, I know :-) And quite often I can do that too. And it's not like I hate those episodes or anything, and they contain many moments that are amongst my favorites of the whole season. But taken as a whole I feel like they fall down a bit, and as a study of Moffat's writing, I want to know why . . . .
As best I can work out, the issue is that the format of the story didn't allow him to make the same kinds of jumps he usually does. I mean, his writing is always a bit of a hodge-podge with the way he bounces between genres and moods and from idea to idea to idea, but in a normal script he manages the transitions by jumping back and forth between a few different situations (like in the Library episodes) or by making the differences between successive beats so weird and huge that you just kind of go along with it for kicks (like in The Big Bang). But in the Angels episodes he's essentially stuck with one group of people going along a linear storyline that he can't cut away from . . . and it's awkward. I think I saw someone describe it as a whole succession of set pieces that don't quite connect: the angels and the lights in the corridor . . . Amy's countdown . . . Amy has to close her eyes . . . the clerics are eaten . . . Amy has to walk like she can see. And all these things happen along this very linear and same-y storyline, and yet they don't cohere. I don't think he really knows how to make those links smooth.
At any rate. I don't think they're horrible episodes or anything. I quite like them. But I like his other episodes better. Actually, I rather like the Angels episodes for showing up why his other episodes work so well--and I think it's because he embraces the jumps and goes for broke with them. . . . and, this comment has now earned the rambling icon.
Heh. You get my Oncoming Storm icon for that. :)
Glower all you want, Ten--the point stands.
Squee! They are gorgeous!
=D *happy sigh*
And I recognise San Carlo alle Quattro Fontane - I watched a programme about Italian architecture (about a year ago?) and that church was featured.
Excellent. I ADORED the class I took on baroque architecture--it was like several months' vacation in Rome but with bonus mind-twist-y-ness.
Also, I need to go to Cambridge some day. And Oxford...
You live in the same country and you have not been?!?!? tsk ;-) I've been to Oxford. Wanted it to be Cambridge, but we only had time for one and I was out-voted. My favorite architectural history professor had a great story about getting invited to give an important lecture at Cambridge. His wife, who is in the same field, skipped the lecture to go see the King's College Chapel instead. He understood--he wanted to do the same.
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Hee. Yes, I know :-) And quite often I can do that too.
Heh. I had to come back to correct myself because that's not quite it, and the imprecision was killing me (why, yes, I am ridiculous, thank you). It's more that I can hold both the good and the bad in my mind and once and the two do not contaminate each other. I'm free to poke around at what doesn't work without wrecking my enjoyment of what does.
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(Really, that line is one of my favourites ever ever ever! Plz get out of my brain!)
ETA: Went and made a macro of my own. Not silly so much as profound, since that book *does* speak a lot of truth...
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*grins* I was hoping you'd think so. Yay esoteric humor.
Really, that line is one of my favourites ever ever ever!
It's a fabulous line. *loves*
Plz get out of my brain!
No. Shan't. =D
ETA: Went and made a macro of my own. Not silly so much as profound, since that book *does* speak a lot of truth...
Mmmm. So true. That one definitely jumped out at me too--nice connection. Oh, Ten, stop making me pity you.
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Indeed!
It's a fabulous line. *loves*
Plus, it speaks the truth. Stuff like that is gold dust!
No. Shan't. =D
Hee! 'S OK, I don't want you to go, really. :)
Mmmm. So true. That one definitely jumped out at me too--nice connection. Oh, Ten, stop making me pity you.
*pets Ten* I chose that cap 'cause it was so obvious, although I could have chosen almost any... F.ex. Eleven in The Beast Below is that to a T. The Doctor, bless him, tries to run away from that truth I think, because he knows the price. And yet he can't leave his principles behind.
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Awww, shucks.
F.ex. Eleven in The Beast Below is that to a T. The Doctor, bless him, tries to run away from that truth I think, because he knows the price. And yet he can't leave his principles behind.
*nods* It is very hard to watch. I wanna be like 'stop hurting yourself,' but that is the Doc through and through.
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If you were here I'd mock-punch you. ;)
*nods* It is very hard to watch. I wanna be like 'stop hurting yourself,' but that is the Doc through and through.
Ah but if he didn't stand up for his principles he would be himself. (There is soooo much of Wimsey in him!)