Buffy/Riley. Lots of meta. (I must be insane...)

[elisi]

Buffy and Riley... hmmm. I never understood the end of ‘Doomed’. Why did Buffy change her mind? Just because The Apocalypse didn’t happen? No one knows, because she doesn’t say. Anyway, that question was the starting point for this post - what does Buffy see in Riley that makes him worthwhile to pursue?

The thing is - Riley is a nice guy. It’s his defining characteristic. He’s honest, straightforward, smart, good at what he does, honourable - a very old-fashioned kinda guy, really.To quote Forrest:

“Granted they’re [HSTs} a little rarer than the one’s you grew up with on that little farm in Smallville...”

This makes a Riley=Superman connection, and that, I think, is one of the keys to the character: He’s The All American Hero. Straight Laced Good Guy who kills the bad guys, saves the damsel in distress and helps the old ladies across the road. We also have the reference to Adam (Riley’s ‘brother’) being part Boy Scout. There’s a lot of Boy Scout in Riley.

Basically he stands for order - and Buffy... Buffy is chaos. We see this as soon as Riley tries to approach her (intending to chat her up) and then chokes:

Riley : You don't understand. I'm good at things. That's what I do. Work hard, apply myself, get it done.
'The Initiative'

Riley in a nutshell. And also his relationship with Buffy - because when it comes to Buffy, hard work won’t get it done. He can apply everything he has, and yet it won’t work. Buffy is (unwittingly) his undoing - his downfall. She undermines everything he believes to be true:

Riley: I mean who do you believe?  First it sounds like lies, then it sounds like truth.
[...]
No.  Buffy.  I don't know... anything.  I don't know what's going on.  Who the bad guys are.  Maybe I'm the bad guy.  Maybe I'm the thing you should kill.
‘Goodbye Iowa’

He never recovers from this, really. He needs fundamental good and bad in his life - needs order. Needs a mission. The two of them have a very interesting conversation in ‘This Years Girl’:

Buffy: Is there anything I can do?
Riley: Give me an order.  It's what I do, isn't it?  Follow orders?
Buffy: You don't have to.
Riley: Don't I?  All my life that's what I've been groomed to do. They say jump, I ask how high?  I get the job done.  Just don't know if it's the right job anymore.
(We see in AYW that he finds the right job again, and is happy.)
Buffy: I know how you feel.  Giles used to be a part of this council. And for years all they ever did was give me orders.
Riley: Ever obey them?
Buffy: Sure. The ones I was going to do anyway.  The point is, I quit the council.  And I was scared.  But it's okay now.
Riley: See.  Now that's where you and I are different.  I just suck at the whole gray-area thing.
(Riley puts his finger on it there. Buffy was always a rebel. He never was.)
Buffy: It's a choice.  Go back in there and maybe make some changes from the inside.  Or you can quit the team.  Fight demons in your own way.
Riley: You make it sound so simple.  I don't even know what my way is.
Buffy: Well, it's time to find out.
(He tries, oh he tries so hard, but her way just isn’t his. And being 'The Mission's Boyfriend' isn't enough, when she doesn't love him....)
Riley: I'm a soldier.  Take that away, what's left?
Buffy: A good man.
(But Riley cannot get rid of the soldier part of him anymore than Buffy can get rid of the Slayer part. He is as lost without his soldier identity as Buffy is without her powers in ‘Helpless’.)

Buffy of course comes at the thing from a completely different angle. She wants a nice safe relationship, something different from Angel.

Buffy: And the bad-boy thing? Over it. Okay, I totally get it. I’d be really happy to be in a nice relationship with a decent, reliable... Oh my god! Riley -
‘Something Blue’

And she thought she did with Riley, until she discovered that he was in The Initiative. Suddenly she felt like the rug had been pulled out from under her feet - like it’s Angel all over again. Angel that she thought was just a hot, mysterious guy, but who turned out to have a dark secret. And she tried to ignore the fact that he was a vampire and the fact that it could never work out, but it hurt both of them too much.

So - why does she go to Riley at the end of ‘Doomed’? Why does she change her mind? I think it comes back to this:

Buffy: “I really thought that you were a nice, normal guy.”
Riley:  “I am a nice, normal guy.”

There is a lot of conflict in ‘Doomed’, mostly about the things they have in common:

Buffy:  “Yeah, but you’re an amateur – fry cook and I come form a long line of fry cooks that don’t live past 25.”
Riley:  “Which is exactly the attitude I’m talking about.  Look, I know the risks of what we do.  I also know it’s more rewarding than any other job on the planet – and fun.”

I think the reason Buffy decides to give Riley a chance is the fact that it *is* just a job to him, that he *is* just a nice, normal guy. He really, really doesn’t have a Jekyll/Hyde split at all - which we see with the whole ‘paint ball’ fiasco:

Buffy:  “No offence, but you do look wicked conspicuous.”
Riley:  “I do?  But it’s... – Paintball!  Yeah, I was playing paintball.  And then the aftershocks...”
'Doomed'

 It’s as far from this as you can get:

Buffy:  Then why didn't you say something?
Angel:  But I wanted to. I can walk like a man, but I’m not one. I wanted to kill you tonight.
‘Angel’

I think you have to compare ‘Doomed’ with ‘Angel’ from S1 to get where Buffy’s head is at - she’s so scared of dreaming and hoping, because she’s been hurt so badly before. But Riley proves to be exactly the same after his secret is out as he was before. Buffy is used to Angel, who never gave anything away and had a face that was pretty much unreadable, but Riley truly is the boy scout he says he is. She met Clark Kent, but Superman is exactly the same, except for the tights and the flying. No dark secrets. No hidden badness.

So Buffy decides to give it a try - because Riley is a good guy, without a hint of irony. The problem of course being this one:

Buffy : And the thing is, I like my evil like I like my men-- evil. You know, "straight up, black hat, "Tied to the train tracks, soon my electro-ray will destroy metropolis" bad.
‘Pangs’

See the reason Riley is such a great guy is also the key to why it goes wrong. Going with the comic book parallels again, Angel was Batman (tortured by his past, lived in the shadows), his super hero identity far from his daytime facade. Superman has no such hidden darkness, and he wouldn’t be Superman if he suddenly tried to find such darkness inside.

I said further up that Riley stands for order and Buffy for chaos. From ‘The I In Team’:

Buffy:  Quite the regimental soldier.
Riley: I am how they trained me.
Buffy: They?  Who they?
Riley: You know, the government.  Plucked me out of special op training for this.
Buffy: What did they tell you it was for?
Riley: They didn't.  In the military you learn to follow orders.  Not ask questions.
Buffy: I don't understand.  Aren't you curious about all the science and research stuff they're doing?
Riley: Hm.  I know all I need to know.  We're doing good here. Protecting the public.  Removing the subterrestrial threat.  It's work worth doing.

Buffy is shown as very much the Old Testament image of why women are trouble (“So, what’s up with this no-eat-apple-tree?”), but here it’s shown to be a positive - following orders blindly is foolish and dangerous. Thinking for yourself is good.

Except of course not from The Initiative’s POV:

Walsh: “She’s unpredictable.”
‘The I In Team’

Or to quote Riley:
Riley: Well, you're tricky! [...] I never know how you're going to react to something. That's why I like you so much. You're a mystery. Probably every beautiful girl in the world has some jerk telling her she's a mystery, but.. I swear. You really are. There's a lot about you that needs puzzling out.
‘Something Blue’

There is a cut line from the ‘Get It Done’ script that illustrates this perfectly:

Buffy: I am the power. Disrupting things is what I do.

I think the order/chaos theory works rather well, and it is the reason they’re attracted, but also why it doesn’t work. Riley is attracted to Buffy, but needs order to function. Slowly he comes to understand that Buffy is chaos - and in trying to find that chaos inside he destroys himself, the self that Buffy fell for in the first place. Maybe - and that’s a big maybe - they could have found a balance. But he didn’t stick around long enough to find out. ETA: What would have happened if Buffy had reached the helicopter in time? Or if they'd met at another point? Or if Joyce had never become ill? We don't know. Riley was good for Buffy, and he made her happy - the question is: Could she have made him happy? And would she have been satisfied with him in the long run?

~~~~~

The thing that bothers a lot of people, at least the thing that bothers me, is that he thinks he’s got Buffy figured out fairly swiftly. This is where the fact that he works from logic comes in - he analyses the facts and comes to a conclusion. And he’s a smart guy, because he gets it right most of the time. But this does not impress Buffy at all, because Buffy doesn’t work off logic in the same way - she works off emotions. See Spike gives Buffy a couple of speeches as well in his time, and they make a far deeper impression. Spike works from emotions just like Buffy - time and feelings and experiences all accumulate so that his words carry far more weight. We see this most clearly in the ‘You’re a martyr’ talks:

Riley:  “I know that it’s not just a job thing.  I’m sure that there is some good looking guy that done you wrong in there, too.  But mostly I think you want to stay down in that dark place because maybe it’s safer down there.”
Buffy:  “You are so out of line.”
Riley:  “No.  See I don’t think so."
‘Doomed’

Spike: You're addicted to the misery. It's why you won't tell your pals about us. Might actually have to be happy if you did. They'd either understand and help you, god forbid ... or drive you out ... where you can finally be at peace, in the dark. With me. Either way, you'd be better off for it, but you're too twisted for that. Let yourself live, already. And stop with the bloody hero trip for a sec. We'd all be the better for it.
‘Normal Again’

The odd thing is, that the first speech really irks people (the second one might also, but for different reasons). Because surely we should be happy that Buffy has found a guy who is smart enough to figure out her problems (‘cause he’s pretty accurate). But there are two reasons why this doesn’t work:

1) Riley (being a psych student) is able to ‘diagnose’ Buffy pretty quickly. The problem is that he doesn’t know why she has these problems. He makes a stab in the dark (I’m sure that there is some good looking guy that done you wrong in there, too), but he has no idea how deeply Buffy was hurt by Angel or what Slaying has done to her. Which brings me to point #2...

2) He hasn’t earned the right to speak up like that. Spike in ‘Normal Again’ has earned that right and more besides. If he’s right or wrong is beside the point - he knows Buffy. At this point (‘Doomed’) Riley does not. It’s what I like to call ‘The L’Oreal Factor’ - ‘because he’s worth it’. Riley is in essence saying ‘I’m a great guy, you should date me.’ It’s completely unconscious, a natural by-product of his upbringing, training and environment: He deserves good things. He really is the anti-Angel who always felt unworthy of Buffy. ETA: In one word: Privilege.

We see these two factors again in ‘As You Were’ and ‘Touched’:

RILEY: Buffy, none of that means anything. It doesn't touch you. You're still the first woman I ever loved ... and the strongest woman I've ever known. [...] You're up, you're down ... it doesn't change what you are. And you are a hell of a woman.

SPIKE: I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you. And I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman.

Riley in AYW is saying that he still sees the woman Buffy used to be in the woman she’s become. This is helpful to Buffy, who feels she has lost touch with everything she once was. But it is also emphatically the view of an outsider - someone taking a swift glance at the situation and coming to a quick conclusion. Riley has no idea of the depression Buffy is struggling with, or any of the events that led to her and Spike getting together. Something happened, and he brushes it aside because he’s sure it’s just a momentary thing, something she can get over. Riley sees her problems as external - something that happened to her (“I know I’m lucky right now...”). But S6 isn’t about Buffy being ‘unlucky’ - it’s about battling the darkness inside.

In ‘Touched’ Spike expresses something very different. Years worth of (intimate) knowledge come together. And he says that who she is - the good, the bad, the ugly - it’s all worthwhile, it’s all loveable. They both know that her problems are internal, that she has a lot of darkness inside, that she cuts herself off. Spike says that he loves her anyway - and not in spite of these things, but because of them - because they’re part of her. To borrow the half-remembered lyrics of a song (thanks to Rhiannonhero):

When I fell for her
I fell for her hard
From the beauty in her eyes
to every small battle scar

The battles that Buffy has had to fight have made her who she is - and that is the person that Spike loves. She wouldn’t be Buffy without her scars.

Which brings me to some of the most telling dialogue. The first is from the beginning of ‘Doomed’:

Riley: But I’m a walking bruise today. [...] I don’t see a scratch on you.
Buffy: You’re not looking hard enough.
Riley: I’m looking pretty hard.

This reminds me of ‘Something Blue’ and Spike’s effortless insight:

Giles: She [Willow] seems to be coping better with Oz's departure, don't you think?
Buffy: She still has a way to go, but yeah — I think she's dealing.
Spike: What, are you people blind? She's hangin' on by a thread. Any ninny can see that.

Riley takes things at face value. He asses situations and reacts accordingly - tallies up strengths and weaknesses. Logical. Straightforward.

Spike always looks beneath. This is partly because of his inherent poet nature, and partly because he leads a dangerous life. He’s managed to stay alive for a long time because he works out what makes people tick, not just what physical strengths they have. We see this most clearly in his fight with Nikki - logically she should have won. But she didn’t. Spike has learned to exploit his opponents weaknesses, how to get under their skin. And boy does he get under Riley’s skin. The chaos element of Buffy is what Riley can’t understand - what intrigues him - and Spike says that this is what she has in common with vampires - that there is a link there that Riley can never hope to get near:

Spike: Face it, white bread. Buffy's got a type, and you're not it. She likes us dangerous, rough, occasionally bumpy in the forehead region. Not that she doesn't like you ... but sorry Charlie, you're just not dark enough.
‘Shadow’

So Riley tries, and we all know the outcome of that. Buffy uses the chaos, but Riley gets used by it. He tries to be different, without understanding that if she can’t love him for who he is, it can never work. Spike saw this in ‘Lovers Walk’:

Spike: I've been all wrongheaded about this. Weeping, crawling, blaming everybody else. I want Dru back, I've just gotta be the man I was. The man she loved.

Buffy fell for Riley because he was a good man. Trying to be bad was never going to work in a million years.

~~~

To be honest I don’t know if they could ever have worked it out. I don’t think so. (Also Riley is dull. Oh - and does anyone have any thoughts on Sam as Lois Lane?)

But finally, just two quotes that illustrate my point perfectly:

RILEY: Hey! You want me to say that I liked seeing you in bed with that idiot? Or that blinding orange is your very best color? Or that that ... burger smell is appealing?
‘As You Were’

SPIKE: (softly) She was so raw. I've never felt anything like it.
‘Entropy’

Riley sees the symptoms. Spike sees the cause. That’s the difference. And that’s why Riley and Buffy don’t work out.

The End

 

Comments

[gamiila.livejournal.com]

That is one helluv an essay, and it was a pleasure to read.

[elisi]

Squee! *basks*

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

Wow. Having this in my memories right now!! Wow. I never read an insightful Buffy/Riley essay before, nice way comparing it to Spuffy.

Riley is a nice guy. It’s his defining characteristic. He’s honest, straightforward, smart, good at what he does, honourable - a very old-fashioned kinda guy, really.

I think Riley is the kind of guy your family wants you to date. Quoting Xander: "When he's the one that comes along once in a lifetime."

He got all Buffy's family's approval: Dawn, Xander, Willow, Joyce, Giles... but sometimes what your family thinks it's best for you isn't really what is best for you. Even though I believe Riley had positives Angel and Spike didn't have.

[elisi]

I never read an insightful Buffy/Riley essay before
And I'm beyond surprised that I wrote this! But thank you! :)

"When he's the one that comes along once in a lifetime."
That's it. He *is* a really good catch, a thoroughly decent guy. But he just wasn't the one for Buffy. Re-watching S4 I remember what a nice guy he is and why I like him, and why he is good for Buffy. But it just doesn't work.

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

Very interesting. I have to admit a fondness for poor Riley; he never really had a chance. And you've nicely articulated the reasons why!

I do think that in a lot of ways Riley was healing for Buffy; a step she needed to go through in her recovery from the emotional trauma of Angel. I don't think they would ever have worked out long term.

[elisi]

I have to admit a fondness for poor Riley
Me too. He's just such a decent guy.

in a lot of ways Riley was healing for Buffy
::nods:: Although I think she was probably bad for him...

[fishsanwitt]

Absolutely wonderful!

What a great essay.

Thank you.

[elisi]

No, thank you! (The writing of this was my self-styled reward inbetween looking after children all week!)

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Very insightful (as usual!) and I think you've put your finger on the difference between Spike and Riley's feelings for Buffy.

One quibble, though, is that you seem to be presenting Riley's character as a fixed thing: he's always 'The All American Hero. Straight Laced Good Guy who kills the bad guys' - and when he tries to pretend to be what he isn't for Buffy's sake, it all goes wrong.

I saw it much more as a journey for him: he may have started out that way, but then he had to face the ultimate betrayal. Everything he believed in, everything he trusted, turned out to be a lie... except for Buffy. Riley had to decide whether to close his eyes and go on following his comrades, or take a wild leap in the dark and trust her instead. He chose her.

And I don't think he really regretted it either... yes, he was sometimes impatient with the Scoobies' ideas of stealth, or whatever; but he always seemed good-humoured about it. What broke him was when Buffy seemed to be repaying his commitment to her by taking him for granted or ignoring him.

(A lot of people suggest that "Riley couldn't handle Buffy being stronger than him" - from what I saw, it was the complete opposite; he got a kick out of knowing his girlfriend was superhumanly strong. It was Angel who couldn't face being a normal human around Buffy...)

So why didn't things work out for them? Partly for the reasons given: Riley just wasn't dark enough, or exciting enough for Buffy (cue cliché rant #35 "why do women always fall for bastards instead of nice guys?" ;) Also, points to Riley cutting a chip out of his own chest with a piece of broken glass; how more basass do you want?).

Partly, though, I think it was just sheer coincidence. Buffy is too used to being alone, having to make decisions for herself, having to keep secrets from the people round her. She's never really had chance to get into the habit of sharing things with a partner, apart from a few late-night graveside chats with Angel. And before she can really move her relationship with Riley to that level, Joyce falls ill and Buffy's too stressed and worried about her (and Glory...) to spare much emotion for Riley. So he feels left out, and tries increasingly desperate strategies to get her attention again. Which may be a little childish or selfish of him, but just like her, he's also a confused young adult in his first serious sexual relationship, so I'm inclined to cut him a break. :)

Maybe if Joyce had stayed healthy, Buffy and Riley would have worked things out, got used to one another, and lived happily ever after. And maybe if James Marsters had been hired to play Riley instead of Spike, that's exactly what would have happened. :)

(And in 'As You Were', Riley seemed to have reverted back to his pre-Buffy personality; to be honest, I saw that as something of a defeat for him...)

[elisi]

Very insightful (as usual!)
Thank you! And your comment is the same (as usual)!

I saw it much more as a journey for him
That is very true. I'm only up to 'Superstar' in my re-watch, maybe I should have watched his whole arch before writing this. But then on the other hand AYW does show him back at to where he was before, which (sadly) undermines the lessons he learned.

What broke him was when Buffy seemed to be repaying his commitment to her by taking him for granted or ignoring him.
::nods:: He wanted passion and she wanted security. One of the most telling scenes is in ITW when he almost begs her to hit him, and she walks away.

It was Angel who couldn't face being a normal human around Buffy...
Heh.

Partly, though, I think it was just sheer coincidence.
That's a very good point. Thank you for all your thoughts - I've added a bit to the essay dealing v. briefly with some of them. :)

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

Wow! Incredibly well-said... and I think you've summed up Riley perfectly!!

[elisi]

Thank you! :) There are gaps (look at stormwreath's comment), but I just had to post it before it got too unwieldy.

[spikereader.livejournal.com]

Another interesting and enjoyable essay. I love the way you draw comparisons and use quotes for illustration. And Spike always has the best lines.

[elisi]

Thank you. :) And yes, Spike always has the best lines.

[molly_may]

He hasn’t earned the right to speak up like that. Spike in ‘Normal Again’ has earned that right and more besides. If he’s right or wrong is beside the point - he knows Buffy. At this point (‘Doomed’) Riley does not. It’s what I like to call ‘The L’Oreal Factor’ - ‘because he’s worth it’. Riley is in essence saying ‘I’m a great guy, you should date me.’ It’s completely unconscious, a natural by-product of his upbringing, training and environment: He deserves good things. He really is the anti-Angel who always felt unworthy of Buffy.

This is exactly the reason I turned so strongly against Riley in the first place, the sense of entitlement that he can say whatever he wants to to Buffy and she should date him anyway, because he's such an awesome guy. I think where I differ from a lot of fans is that I *don't* think Riley is a decent guy. I think we're supposed to see him as decent, that the writers intended for him to be, but his actions to me frequently come across as manipulative and passive-aggressive. He's a TA who dates one of his students, which is incredibly unethical. By getting the bite jobs from vampires, he puts everyone he loves at risk, but clearly that's Buffy's fault for not crying on his shoulder. When he comes back in AYW, he lets Buffy be flirty and embarrass herself by not telling her that he's married. He gives her the "your the greatest" speech, but has to throw in the line about how she smells bad. He's consistently a jerk, but one with a total "aw shucks" attitude. Buffy could do so much better with 90% of the random guys she passes on the street.

Heh. You know how I love to rant about Riley!

[elisi]

Heh. You know how I love to rant about Riley!
Ah yes... although re-watching, I'm almost coming to the conclusion that Buffy was bad for Riley. He's just so clueless - like he stepped out of Pleasantville or something. Hey, that's not a bad analogy...

His greatest crime in my eyes is just to be so incredibly dull. I'm currently wondering who's more boring - Adam or Riley. And when they're together on screen all the life just gets sucked out of the show!

[confusedkayt.livejournal.com]

I am in danger of becoming your minion. Every time you write one of these, I just kind of nod along and think, "How right are you? So right."

[elisi]

I am in danger of becoming your minion.
Whoa! I think I'm in danger of my ego exploding! *g* Although having a minion would be *so* cool... (That said your writing makes me want to be your minion, so maybe we could work something out?)

Anyway, glad you like my obsessive intellectual pursuits! :)

[quietpoet.livejournal.com]

This was really good, elisi!! I had some of the same kinds of thoughts kicking around in my head as well since I've been in a season 4 mood this past week, but couldn't quite articulate them.

I think Riley was a good transition for Buffy. Her dad left, Angel left, Parker used her...Riley seemed like a stand-up, reliable, nice, normal guy. Which is exactly what Buffy thought she needed. The fact that Buffy caused Riley's eventual downfall and departure is important. Buffy was bad for Riley's career, but I think she was good for Riley himself. She showed him that the world's not just black and white - there are shades of gray that need to be noticed in the world.

I think that in "New Moon Rising" when Buffy gets mad at Riley, she doesn't see him as talking about Willow/Oz, but rather talking about her:
(from The Buffyverse Dialogue Database)
RILEY: You're kidding me. Gotta say I'm surprised. I didn't think Willow was that kind of girl.

BUFFY: What kind of girl?

RILEY: Into dangerous guys. She seems smarter than that.

BUFFY: Oz is not dangerous. Something happened to him that wasn't his fault. God, I never knew you were such a bigot.

RILEY: Whoa, hey, how did we get to bigot? I'm just saying it's a little weird to date someone who tries to eat you once a month.

BUFFY: Yeah, well love isn't logical, Riley. It's not like you can be Mister Joe Sensible about it all the time.

Buffy gets angry and defensive, because she reads too much into Riley's judgment of Willow. Which to a point I can understand, but I think she over-reacted a bit too much.

I think Riley was also a good transition for her relationship with Spike. She starts to realize it as early as Pangs (subconsciously, of course)
(from Buffy dialogue database again)
BUFFY: And the thing is, I like my evil like I like my men-- evil. You know, "straight up, black hat, "Tied to the train tracks, soon my electro-ray will destroy metropolis" bad. Not all mixed up with guilt and the destruction of an indigenous culture.

Hmm, ring any bells, Buffy?

I think that Riley needed a mission the same way Buffy needed her mission. When Graham referred to him as the "mission's boyfriend", it really hurt him. Riley's whole life was the military, then it was Buffy and the military, and then when he didn't have the Initiative anymore, he just had Buffy. But Buffy wasn't enough for him, because she could never love him or need him the same way he loved/needed her. And so he tried to be evil for her, associating with vampires and the like. One could argue, he tried to be like Spike at the time. Ambiguously evil.

And I'm not even gonna go into Riley coming back in the middle of S6 and passing judgment on Buffy for her relationship with Spike. I treat "As You Were" as kind of a dream sequence...Buffy seeing in Riley/Sam what she always wished she could have in a relationship, and Riley finding her with Spike was almost a slap in the face to her. It reminded her of her dark side and her inability to be normal in a way that her friends finding out never could.

I'm gonna cut this off before LJ tells me I've said too much.

[confusedkayt.livejournal.com]

The conversation with Riley about Oz/Willow is such a typical Buffy conversation... The thing that will always irritate me about her is her constant resort to this tactic, the "I'll talk about your (or someone's) problems, in such a way that I am clearly talking about myself, so that I neither have to engage with my loved ones' problems nor admit that I'm airing my own."

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

Very, very cool. I like your pointing out the chaos/order idea, though I haven't really factored it into my view of the show yet (mostly because I tend to like the order side, so I try to fit the chaos into that - perhaps your comment about Buffy using the chaos vs being used by it helps there). And I promise that I have an essay. Really.

[elisi]

Thank you! :)

perhaps your comment about Buffy using the chaos vs being used by it helps there
I like that the more I think about it. We see it in the way she approaches fighting (use anything that's handy) - she's extremely flexible in the way she thinks. The Initiative on the other hand is trying to regiment and control.

Looking forward to the essay whenever it comes! :)

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

He hasn’t earned the right to speak up like that. Spike in ‘Normal Again’ has earned that right and more besides. If he’s right or wrong is beside the point - he knows Buffy.

I agree that Riley hadn’t earned the right but I really don’t think Spike had either in Normal Again. He’s always had good instincts for people’s weak spots, not necessarily what’s true but what will hurt them. Often as in Fool for Love he seems consciously or not to be projecting his own issues, he’s empathic in the limited sense of recognising those feelings he has himself. That’s not the same as knowing Buffy, as she told him in NLM he doesn’t. He can wax poetical about her weaknesses but even with a soul, when he first comes back he doesn’t comprehend the good in her. He characterises her as addicted to misery and martyrdom and completely misses the part of her that suffers whatever she has to in order to protect her friends.

I think while soulless he also underestimates her much vaunted darkness because it’s actually quite different from what he’s familiar with. When he talks about the dark he seems to mean some version of the passion for destruction that he as a vampire has given himself up to, an amoral realm of the senses where nothing matters beyond your own pleasure. Buffy on the other hand seems to be struggling with a much more negative form of darkness, emptiness, self-loathing and despair. When he tells her to put it all on him in Dead Things I don’t think he has any idea what he’s let himself in for.

[elisi]

I really don’t think Spike had either in Normal Again.
I knew someone would pick up on that! I was wondering if I should expand on it, but decided that then it'd just turn into a Spike essay...

Anyway, what I meant (and didn't put across very well) is that Buffy listens to, and takes note of, Spike's words in 'Normal Again'. We can see how his understanding is limited and flawed, but it hits Buffy so hard that it pushes her over the edge. In 'Doomed' she shook off Riley's words because 'he didn't know her', even though his words carried a lot of truth. But Spike manages to get under her skin far more effectively. Partly because this is what he's good at (using words to hurt and unsettle), and partly because she fears that he is right - that she is a creature of the dark like him.

Spike does not begin to understand Buffy until around/after NLM - which is when she begins to open up more, and he (having a soul now) can actually figure out what that means.

(I sincerely hope that made sense... Thank you for your v. interesting comment btw.)

[bearfacedcheek.livejournal.com]

I do so love your musinga. Also I've had a couple of glasses of wine so I'm feeling kinda gushy.

[elisi]

Wine is good. Athough I'm sticking with tea tonight.

Oh and thanks for reading and liking! :)

[shamoogity.livejournal.com]

This was so interesting. People always talk about Riley as though he were a simple character, but I think it's his very simplicity, or at least the fact that he likes to see the world as simple that makes him interesting and sets him apart from other characters on the show. But you managed to make some really interesting points about Riley, Buffy, and Spike without making it about shipping preferences. So kudos. Oh, I'm here from the su_herald, in case you were wondering.

[elisi]

the fact that he likes to see the world as simple that makes him interesting and sets him apart from other characters on the show
That is a very good point. All the others have any number of hang-ups, and troubled childhoods - Riley is happy and secure in who he is (until the whole Initiative strats falling down around him etc).

And - looking at your icon - the whole 'cowboy character' sort of illustrates that. :)

without making it about shipping preferences
Yay! I'm *so* glad it worked. I needed the various Spike quotes int here for contrast, but I didn't want it to come across as 'OMG Spike is perfect!' which I was a little worried about. So thank you. :)

[xlivvielockex.livejournal.com]

This essay is just amazing. It was so insightful. And while some people might not agree with it, you did a wonderful job of supporting all of the points that you made. It was a fantastic read.

I admit that I never had thought that deeply about the character of Riley. He was a bit on the dull side but I do feel he was neccessary at the time for Buffy. Everyone needs that bit of a transitional person in their love life.

The comments have been really thought provoking too. I think that is a sign of a fantastic essay, when it prompts others to think so much. Excellent job. I can't say enough great things about this.

[elisi]

It was a fantastic read.
It never fails to amaze me that my obsessive musings are actually read and appreciated by other people. Thank you!

Everyone needs that bit of a transitional person in their love life.
Indeed. I'm currently re-watching S4, and it was Riley's very dullness that made me think. Why was he there? What made him tick? Why did things go wrong?

The comments have been really thought provoking too.
I love comments! :) Often they articulate things I hadn't quite thought through, offer completely fresh perspectives or sometimes just point stuff out that I'd thought of including but decided not to bother with... Anyway, thank you again for your most wonderful reply - it's going to put a smile on my face all day! :)

[frimfram.livejournal.com]

Terrific stuff Elisi. And I loved the Batman/Superman analogy, and not just because comics have eaten my brain.

For me Riley was one of the host of characters who BtVS transformed from cartoon character into fully-fledged, complex, fascinating human being. That adding-in of pencil-strokes is one of the reasons I love that show so much - going from low-concept premises to real sophistication. And I think it's why I didn't like his later cameos, because they used the character just to make points about Buffy, and reduced him back to the shorthand he started out as.

[elisi]

Terrific stuff Elisi. And I loved the Batman/Superman analogy, and not just because comics have eaten my brain.
Thank you! :) And you're more than welcome to elaborate on the cominc book stuff - my only knowledge comes from the films so I know v. little about any of them.

transformed from cartoon character into fully-fledged, complex, fascinating human being
::nods vigorously::

reduced him back to the shorthand he started out as.
I do - and don't - agree with that. Yes they used him as 'Buffy's-ex-who-can-tell-her-she's-still-awesome' yadda, yadda, which I always resented. But I think he carried the lessons he'd learned with him. In TKiM he leaves the chip problem entirely in Buffy's hands. And not knowing about Spike's soul, he is willing to let Buffy let loose an unchipped vampire upon the world. Seems he understood something about the whole shades-of-grey he was struggling with.

[thirdblindmouse.livejournal.com]

*stores in memories*

You have a very good handle on Buffy/Riley; much more than most people bother to have (even though you think he's dull). Some very apt comparisons between Buffy/Riley moments and Buffy/Spike moments. I'm not sure I agree with everything, but there's so much to digest that it may take a while.

also

[thirdblindmouse.livejournal.com]

The odd thing is, that the first speech really irks people (the second one might also, but for different reasons).

It would be interesting to really explore fans' reactions to Riley and Buffy/Riley and the reasons behind those reactions, especially in comparison with their reactions to Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I followed your link from molly_may's last Riley Rant post, and I think your thoughts here are very insightful.

I always found Riley boring (and in "As You Were" found him completely infuriating in every way), but at the same time I always found him necessary to Buffy's journey. And I think this is because of what you explore here. Buffy is definitely chaos and thriving within that chaos (or, in S6, drowning in it), but she really, really wants order. She believes that order=a normal life, and that's why she holds onto Riley for so long. It's her chaos thinking order is intrinsically better, and I think she needed to actually see up close that it isn't, necessarily, for her.

And you really get that here. Also the contrast with Spike are very, very interesting. Especially with the Spike seeing what's underneath, which is so true. Though I would disagree with you about Spike in "Normal Again." I usually understand his POV very clearly, but I think in that moment he wasn't really saying that for Buffy's benefit (like he does in, say, "Touched") but for his own since he's still hurt over her breaking up with him. But that's just me. ;)

Anyways, again, I really, really enjoyed this. I rarely see meta posts about Riley, and this one is great. Thanks for it!

[elisi]

I think your thoughts here are very insightful.
Thank you! I was very pleased reading through it myself - it's nice to re-discover meta and still like it! :)

I always found Riley boring (and in "As You Were" found him completely infuriating in every way), but at the same time I always found him necessary to Buffy's journey.
*nods* He's very... nice, but I find it very hard to care very much.

She believes that order=a normal life, and that's why she holds onto Riley for so long. It's her chaos thinking order is intrinsically better, and I think she needed to actually see up close that it isn't, necessarily, for her.
Very true.

And you really get that here.
*beams*

Also the contrast with Spike are very, very interesting. Especially with the Spike seeing what's underneath, which is so true.
It always comes back to Spike... *g* But, I do find the differences telling - partly because Buffy herself of course points them out ("If I wanted someone with superpowers I'd be dating Spike...").

Though I would disagree with you about Spike in "Normal Again." I usually understand his POV very clearly, but I think in that moment he wasn't really saying that for Buffy's benefit (like he does in, say, "Touched") but for his own since he's still hurt over her breaking up with him. But that's just me. ;)
Oh it's definitely for his own sake - much like Riley tries to talk Buffy in to dating him in 'Doomed'. The difference being that Riley's words do nothing much except annoy Buffy, whereas Spike's have [short-term at least] a deep effect on her.

Anyways, again, I really, really enjoyed this. I rarely see meta posts about Riley, and this one is great. Thanks for it!
Thank *you* for reading! I have a few more post about Riley... *goes off to look* Yup! Two more, both fairly short:

B/R - a key difference.

B/R and B/S... a comparison of speeches.

Just in case you feel like some more reading! ;)

[deird1]

This is an excellent essay.

(I really should just put aside a day to read all of your meta at once - because it's always so interesting - but I think my brain might explode from over-thinkiness if I did that.)

[elisi]

This is an excellent essay.
Thank you! :)

but I think my brain might explode from over-thinkiness if I did that.
Heh. I think you're right. It's years worth of thinking...

[framefolly.livejournal.com]

WOW!

Here by way of green_maia. This is...

WOW.

I do like lots of parts of Riley. I like order. I did see the problems, but some forms of Riley-bashing gets to me, because what Riley stands for -- the sunny logic, the American Way Superman, and yes, even privilege -- are not all bad. I also thought that it's really reading against the grain when some fans insist that Buffy was never really attracted to Riley. There WAS something, it just wasn't going to work...

Thank you!

May I add this to my memories?

[elisi]

WOW!
\o/

because what Riley stands for -- the sunny logic, the American Way Superman, and yes, even privilege -- are not all bad
Indeed. I think one of my favourite Riley moments ever is from 'Who Are You?':

Faith-as-Buffy: How did you respond so fast?
Riley: I didn't. (shrugs) I was just late for church.

(Also he's very good for Faith. See this analysis.)

There WAS something, it just wasn't going to work...
Indeed. The break-up brought out all the worst in Riley, which is a great shame. *kicks ITW*

May I add this to my memories?
Of course! I'd be honoured. :)