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For the Spuffy fen...
‘Shadow Puppets’ issue 1 gives us what four issues of s8 haven’t.
Spike is weighing the options for and against going to Japan and taking out the new Smile Time puppets:
See? One line: ‘What if there’s an impromptu reunion with the Slayer while I’m away?’
It doesn’t stop him from going. I doubt she’ll be mentioned *at all* in the story to come. I *expect* Spike to hit on every hot-looking girl he comes across (and sleep with them if he can). But - we know that he thinks about Buffy. He might not imagine that he can actually ever have a future with her, and he might not ever try to look her up, but he does dream. She’s a part of his world, of his hopes for the future, whether those hopes become reality or not.
And none of this in any way compares to Buffy’s threesome fantasy. *That* was about sex - and heck, she had fantasies about sex with Spike before she slept with him. It tells us nothing about what she thinks or feels for either of the vampires in question, beyond the fact that she’d like to sleep with them again (and that she’s horny. That she loves them I’m taken as understood). Does she miss Spike? Mourn him? Does she even know he’s alive? Does she ponder a reunion, even if she’d not actually seek one out? We don’t know.
One line. One line is all it’d take. I don’t need a resolution, I don’t need a meeting or buckets of tears. Actually I'd really dislike buckets of tears. All I want is an acknowledgement that Spike matters(/mattered) to Buffy.
And what have I got? Buffy misses Teh Sex. *sigh* I much, much prefer the Buffy who’s dating The Immortal. At least she's getting some.
Spike is weighing the options for and against going to Japan and taking out the new Smile Time puppets:
See? One line: ‘What if there’s an impromptu reunion with the Slayer while I’m away?’
It doesn’t stop him from going. I doubt she’ll be mentioned *at all* in the story to come. I *expect* Spike to hit on every hot-looking girl he comes across (and sleep with them if he can). But - we know that he thinks about Buffy. He might not imagine that he can actually ever have a future with her, and he might not ever try to look her up, but he does dream. She’s a part of his world, of his hopes for the future, whether those hopes become reality or not.
And none of this in any way compares to Buffy’s threesome fantasy. *That* was about sex - and heck, she had fantasies about sex with Spike before she slept with him. It tells us nothing about what she thinks or feels for either of the vampires in question, beyond the fact that she’d like to sleep with them again (and that she’s horny. That she loves them I’m taken as understood). Does she miss Spike? Mourn him? Does she even know he’s alive? Does she ponder a reunion, even if she’d not actually seek one out? We don’t know.
One line. One line is all it’d take. I don’t need a resolution, I don’t need a meeting or buckets of tears. Actually I'd really dislike buckets of tears. All I want is an acknowledgement that Spike matters(/mattered) to Buffy.
And what have I got? Buffy misses Teh Sex. *sigh* I much, much prefer the Buffy who’s dating The Immortal. At least she's getting some.
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I thought that's what you were saying based on the comics :-)
I'm a facultative shipper, I'd rather see Buffy become her own cookie first.
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Ish... The comics don't tell us anything we don't know. I don't need to walk around Spike's dreamspace f.ex. to figure out that he still dreams about sex with Buffy...
I'd rather see Buffy become her own cookie first.
Oh absolutely. I'm all for Buffy baking and being happy by herself. That's the direction I was hoping the comics would take. So far, there's not much though.
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Gotta agree. It's hard to bake when you're not in the oven.
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Given that the title of the series is The Long Road Home, and that Buffy is explicitly shown to be missing the trappings of a normal life in the first episode, my assumption would be that showing her as All Slayer All The Time in the early part of the series is deliberate, and that the overall arc will, in part, deal with her achieving some sort of balance in her life and reclaiming some of the normality she misses. But I have no confidence in my ability to predict what Joss considers a good story, so I would not be surprised if he ignores the whole question.
On the other hand, Spike has never been shown to care about clothes (or rather, I think he cares a great deal about his image, but his image does not depend on up to the minute fashion) so fans who complain about his wardrobe are usually doing so because they would find him more attractive in some other look. I would say that the fans complaining about Comic!Buffy's clothes are doing so on far more substantive, character-based grounds than those who were complaining about Spike's.
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If we take the rather loaded word normal out the equation, being attached to someone has always been shown to be extremely important to Spike. I have to wonder whether people are so much more comfortable with him playing single white hero than with Buffy is that it’s such a stereotypically male role.
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If Buffy decided that no, in the face of infinite choice, what she really wants is to be a full time slayer, yay for her. But I don't know if there's enough evidence at present to determine if she made that choice willingly, or grudgingly, spurred by her sense of duty.
Elisi's original posts on the puppet comic pointed out that it's made fairly clear that Spike is not as happy playing single white hero as he'd like to think. Which is one of the reasons that S/B fans in particular like it, because while it gives no indication that Spike and Buffy will ever meet again, it acknowledges that Buffy was important to Spike and that he misses her (and being in a relationship in general).
Whereas the S8 comic establishes that Buffy misses sex and has sexual fantasies about her old lovers, but does not indicate that she thinks about either of them in any other context or misses them. (I haven't read issue 4 yet, so if that situation changes, I don't know about it.) The puppet comic is quite clear about what Spike feels for Buffy, while making no promise that anything will ever come of those feelings. Whereas the S8 comic deliberately avoids making any commitment as to what Buffy feels (or felt, if she believes he's dead, which we still don't know) about Spike.
Personally, it's the coyness about Buffy's feelings that irritates me. At this point I would be just as happy to find out that Buffy was completely over Spike, so long as as we found out something.
If Buffy's relationships are not important to you, then none of this is at all relevant to your enjoyment of either comic. Buffy's clothes are of less than zero importance to me, and she could have spent the entire series in Kevlar and I probably wouldn't have noticed. But since others have pointed it out, I am capable of saying "Huh, you may have a point there." It's not a point which will interfere with my enjoyment, but I am perfectly willing to grant that it may bother other fans, and that they are not being foolish or unreasonable in being so bothered. They simply have different priorities than I do.
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*bows down*
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One of those things was her calling. Or rather what had changed wasn’t the calling itself but the conditions attached to it. Joss could have shown her partying in Rome and leaving the new Slayers to their own devices but instead showed her working with them and working with them well. Really well. It seems a perfectly reasonable choice based on what we saw in S7. Things aren’t perfect but the things she misses first, her home and her mom, seem to relate more to her past losses than current possibilities for ‘normality.’ In the fourth book finding herself back in Sunnydale provokes no more than a wry acknowledgment that she got what she wished for. There’s no sign of churros or muppety sex but she does have the gang back and she does seem to feel that she knows what she’s doing. All in all it looks like a standard Buffy emotional arc. Initial lack of confidence, spiral down, catharsis, resolution. Possibly too much resolution and this setting up the seasonal arc.
It acknowledges that Buffy was important to Spike and that he misses her
It does if the reader is already convinced that that’s the case and is only looking for confirmation but the same could be said of the OT3 panel. Objectively all we get is “What if there’s an impromptu Slayer reunion while I’m away?” and “The girl was fun. She let me be the dominant one now and then.” both of which rather objectify the nameless her.
If Buffy's relationships are not important to you
I think a middle ground between *romantic* relationships being of no importance and effectively defining her is possible. At this stage I’m happy for them to lurk in the background just as seems to be the case for Spike.
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Why would there be no other Slayers in Rome? Untold fics has her supervising and training Slayers as well as partying. Best of both worlds. Actually we *saw* slayers in TGiQ (Andrew's 'dates') so it's not even like it's a far-fetched idea.
Possibly too much resolution and this setting up the seasonal arc.
Maybe. I hope so.
both of which rather objectify the nameless her.
Ah, but that is just Spike being Spike and not being honest with himself. He has *always* been like that, and it is one reason I like those lines so much. Remember OMWF when he *could only sing truth*?
SPIKE: First, he'll kill her, then I'll save her. [...] No, I'll save her, then I'll kill her.
And of course he saved her life instead... Downplaying his attachments is standard Spike MO. The problem with the Buffy lines is that the reflective ones are very honest (which is of course *not* a problem in itself) and she only misses *sex*. Not a partner or person. And the fantasy is obviously played for laughs. I want depth - even if it's showing that she's moving on!
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There probably are but all people have been talking about is sexing and shopping.
Downplaying his attachments is standard Spike MO.
That was my point . Because you have that view of Spike anything he says can be taken as confirmation of his deep feelings. Whereas Buffy's dreams and thoughts are to be read as utterly literal and complete because she's always worn her emotions on her sleeves and her dreams and visions invariably meant exactly what they appeared to on the surface? Yes, the OT3 is hilarious in every detail but if you ever get to read AXM (which everyone seems to agree on the brilliance of) you'll learn to watch the jokes. They almost always have something hidden in them.
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She was a fully functioning adult in S7, though. She made her own rules, paid her own bills, did her job and performed her duty as best she could given her circumstances without a Watcher or freakishly commanding Xander tossing orders about. The comics so far seem to be a backtread from that and while that will most likely change as the story progresses, it doesn't change that she already went through the 'coming to terms with herself' arc in S7.
I have to wonder whether people are so much more comfortable with him playing single white hero than with Buffy is that it’s such a stereotypically male role.
That's not how I interpreted anything I've read, though admittedly my fandom exposure is quite limited. From what I've seen, the disillusionment is because Buffy isn't playing more of a single white hero; she's just a cog in a machine who has to rescued by phantom kisses, have her subconscious explained to her and needs Willow's power to fight Amy.
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She was trying to be but the circumstances of having to do it entirely alone (no network to back her up, no colleagues with the same problems to share, no mentors to advise her from their own similar experiences) made it an almost impossible task. The comics seem to be about what you do after coming to terms with yourself and the new problems that raises.
From what I've seen, the disillusionment is because Buffy isn't playing more of a single white hero; she's just a cog in a machine who has to rescued by phantom kisses, have her subconscious explained to her and needs Willow's power to fight Amy.
I’ve read those complaints, and believe all were addressed in issue 4. In this conversation the problems people are having focus on Buffy being isolated from the real world of ninja puppets and laser beam hit-demons and not being allowed to clarify her feelings about Spike. Since the comics do show her having a good relationships with Willow and Xander and successful in her chosen profession I don’t think it’s unwarranted to wonder why there’s more outrage on her behalf than on Spike’s when all both seem to lack is romance.
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Buffy was an extraordinary person, in an ordinary world. People go on about 'Sunnydale forgettyitis', but that was partly there so we could keep the illusion that Buffy was part of *our* world. She went to school, she went out clubbing, she had to get a job to pay the bills. That was our key to her, the thing that made us identify - all the monsters were metaphors. And although I loved S6, I know a lot of people hated the fact that the supernatural took a back seat and that the problems were mostly RL related. Now we have the opposite situation. Buffy is so far removed from a normal life that I quite simply can't connect with her. Sure she still has problems with *people*, but that's not the same. She's a supernatural person in a supernatural world.
Adding now:
Spike in Shadow Puppets is very much part of the real world. He has a flat. He has bills he can't pay. He walks around in places we can recognise. Buffy does not.
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I never connected with Buffy because I found her environment familiar. She went to a TV American High School that in its pristine ungrunginess bore no more relation to the comprehensives I remember than Howarts does to Harrow. Spike owes money to a one-eyed demon gambling crony and walks around in a LA that I only recognise from movies. Its a perfectly servicable noir-themed comic but it's not realistic by any stretch of the imagination.
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I’ve read those complaints, and believe all were addressed in issue 4.
Well, what we have there is just a difference in interpretation. Buffy flashing her muscles for a few panels is a far cry from the quick-witted, inventive hero we saw before.
Since the comics do show her having a good relationships with Willow and Xander and successful in her chosen profession I don’t think it’s unwarranted to wonder why there’s more outrage on her behalf than on Spike’s when all both seem to lack is romance.
Well, Willow and Xander really don't have anything to do with it (yay! Buffy's friends with her old friends, all's forgotten!). Spike has never been big with 'friends' and AFAIR, never expressed that he was feeling bereft from not having them. The Spike in this comic is still (presumably) hung up on Buffy (which is why the mention is important). We don't see anything like that so far in S8 from Buffy, although she's wanting. A lot, evidently.
The Buffy we're left with in Chosen makes her decision that she's going to live life and 'bake', this is something Spike never hinted at wanting to do. I just don't agree that baking entails being shut off in an isolated castle with your old buddies. It's new people, new experiences and generally being involved in a world that will expose core issues that you have to evaluate. It's not about her dating or being romantically involved, although that would be a part of it, it's about participating in life, which is what made the character in the past so tangible. That's what I meant by 'you can't bake if you're not in the oven'.
Spike has always wanted to be a hero (for evil or good), although he'd never admit it. In his comics, they have him as a doing good deeds and generally questioning his own motives for doing them. That's some thing you generally expect given what we've seen of him.
I really don't think the issue is their gender, but their previously patterned behavior and attitudes.
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But she didn’t have anyone who understood what it was to be a Slayer. “They haven't been through what I've been through. They're not the slayer. I am.“ I always understood a big part of the activation metaphor was her realizing that other people could not only help her, some could be her – she really wasn’t alone.
Buffy flashing her muscles for a few panels is a far cry from the quick-witted, inventive hero we saw before.
Muscles working together with another Slayer as an equal and muscles with a plan. Use the wounded soldiers as bargaining chips. Use the memory of Amy’s childhood trauma against her. And also instantly recognise the configuration of the corpse from her dreamspace and that XXX=30 in Roman to find Ethan.
We don't see anything like that so far in S8 from Buffy, although she's wanting.
Well possibly her mother’s loss still means more to her than Spike’s. And she’s not shut off in a castle with her buddies but with 50 other Slayers from completely different backgrounds and experiences. Joss has been avoiding thrusting her relationships with them down our throats from the beginning but they’re clearly there and the one-off story for August promises to reveal much more.
Spikes’ comics still have him resolutely refusing to make contact with Buffy just as AtS S5 did and mostly for contractual reasons. I guess that’s been going on long enough that people take it for granted and hence don’t complain.
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She had no one to understand what it was like the be THE Slayer. The one with the burden and responsibility. Does she have that here? Is there anyone around for her to talk to about her fears that she sits with given her dream? She's still alone, just surrounded by more people.
Use the memory of Amy’s childhood trauma against her. And also instantly recognise the configuration of the corpse from her dreamspace and that XXX=30 in Roman to find Ethan.
All of which, of course, were 'splainy'd' by Ethan. I'll give you the soldiers in the group-planned mission, though I'd hardly call that inventive thinking.
Well possibly her mother’s loss still means more to her than Spike’s.
Oh, that's just a ridiculous parallel. No one in their right mind would make the comparison between Spike and Joyce and I do hope you were being wry. Nonetheless, it is off the point I was making. The comment can be taken in the Spike comic that he's still hung up on her, therefore he probably wouldn't be actively looking for a new relationship. Spike isn't mentioned at all, so we're not given the idea that a former relationship is what's keeping her from starting a new one, one that she obviously wants if only in the physical sense.
And she’s not shut off in a castle with her buddies but with 50 other Slayers from completely different backgrounds and experiences.
Who said she didn't have relationships with them? From what we garner from Buffy in the first 4 issues, she has no one to really talk to that would understand her fears and follies. That doesn't indicate that she had a close, personal, pour your heart out type friendship with any of the slayers. She cares for them, had adventures and so forth, but she's still feels alone, isolated and disconnected. If she had such a relationship, well, we'd have at least seen a direct mention of some kind, wouldn't you think? I'd hardly call, "I wish XXXX were back from XXXX" said in passing as thrusting it down our throats. There's nothing I've seen that shows she has a good connection outside of the core Scoobs any more than she did in school surrounded by hundreds of students. If there's time for shipper baiting, there's time to add hints that move the story forward within the text rather taking the info from external mentions of one-offs.
Spikes’ comics still have him resolutely refusing to make contact with Buffy just as AtS S5 did and mostly for contractual reasons. I guess that’s been going on long enough that people take it for granted and hence don’t complain.
Oh, I still think it's stupid, but to some extent you're right that it has sort of been forgotten. However, one is fanfic and is (somewhat) bound by the canon of the shows, the other is meant to be taken as canon.
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She no longer is THE Slayer. If by dream content you mean the sequence when Xander’s head tells her she is ‘the dark’ that sounds quite prophetic of the General’s accusations now and he applies it to all her ‘spawn’ making it clear that it’s no longer uniquely her issue. I also wouldn’t trivialize the connections she’s reformed with Willow and Xander.
'splainy'd' by Ethan.
Ethan splainy’d nothing, he just brought her to the place where she could figure out the connections he wasn’t capable of making himself.
Oh, that's just a ridiculous parallel.
I thought you were complaining about comics Buffy being emotionally opaque for making no explicit reference to Spike, an important figure from her past. My point was simply that she does reference emotionally significant figures from her past just not Spike and in the context of a troubled exchange with Dawn remembering Joyce is a lot more appropriate.
Who said she didn't have relationships with them?
That comment was a response to you saying (quite reasonably) that baking requires new people and new experiences. The story so far begins by subtly establishing how different her relationship with the new Slayers is from the one she had with the potentials, which I think is pretty important. In terms of hints about personal relationships she seems especially close to Leah, she’s been talking with her about Dawn as well as about Slaying, in addition to the less subtle indications that the relationship with Satsu is more complicated than she thinks.
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I would, simply because I really don't view her connection to them in the early years of the show to be all that healthy, especially given how it's hammered home on the show proper how terrified Buffy was of their judgments. Of course this may come from the fact that Joss and I seem to have drastically different opinions of friendship.
No, I wasn't referring to the Xander part of her dream explicitly but more her assertions of her being afraid of herself (the dark) and being afraid to go outside. Perhaps that in and of itself symbolic of why she *has* holed up. And I think they maybe or may not be prophetic, but it still doesn't change that she doesn't seem to have anyone to talk to about them even in her group.
Ethan splainy’d nothing, he just brought her to the place where she could figure out the connections he wasn’t capable of making himself.
Yes, you are absolutely correct. I had actually returned to the journal to retract that statement proffer apologies after rereading the final playout. I *am* fully aware that my own negativity seems to be taking a life of its own with these comics.
My point was simply that she does reference emotionally significant figures from her past just not Spike and in the context of a troubled exchange with Dawn remembering Joyce is a lot more appropriate.
Very true. Dawn wouldn't fully appreciate or even understand Buffy's feelings toward Spike and Joyce is much more relevant. As mentioned below, it is somewhat interesting how absent he is in the dream sequence other than the sexual fantasies. You don't see him at all in the panel detailing her past moments and even putting the romantic angle aside, there's no way Spike wouldn't be there unless there was a reason. Perhaps there's another unseen story thread running, who knows.
The story so far begins by subtly establishing how different her relationship with the new Slayers is from the one she had with the potentials, which I think is pretty important. In terms of hints about personal relationships she seems especially close to Leah, she’s been talking with her about Dawn as well as about Slaying, in addition to the less subtle indications that the relationship with Satsu is more complicated than she thinks.
Yes, one feature I like about new Buffy is her (seemingly) more optimistic views. There's nary a hint of the abject fatalism that we (understandably) saw during S7. I agree about the hinted relationships, but my point is that they seem more casual at least in regard to Buffy's opening herself up. That could change, but it's been a long time, surely she's found some sort of kindred spirit?
You know, I really think my issue might be the timeline. This is a good chunk of time later and we see profound (and strange) changes in the other characters, but the one character who had a goal doesn't seem to have met it and it's not explained why. If this was set closer to Chosen, I'd probably be eating it up (well, not really, the art is *horrible*).
Another big problem that I think is leading to my (and others?) negativity is really the waiting. I mean, did Joss not notice the reaction to BotN after the big wait from NLM? It wasn't the writing, it was the wait.
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Is she?
"I miss my mom. I miss the gang. And churros. And sex. Great muppety odin, I miss that sex. [...] Outstanding. I can't even feel sorry for myself in a linear fashion. Suck it up, Summers. You're a big girl now."
She's worryingly isolated. She can't even have a one night stand to scratch that itch, since the only male around appears to be Xander. I'm not saying that Buffies *not* stuck in Scottish castles are any happier, but they can at least snuggle down on their sofa with a pizza, a tub of icecream and a bottle of wine and watch telly for a whole night. Does this Buffy even *have* a sofa?
Compare and contrast with Spike (from 'Shadow Puppets'):
"Lately I've been working alone. And to tell you the truth I am bloody loving it. I've played sidekick to far too many people. The girl was fun. She let me be the dominant one now and then. But after years of playing by other people's rules, it's bells and whistles being on my own. The angels over my shoulder are gone, baby, gone."
There's more, but that gives you a good idea. Sure, as we later see he wouldn't mind Buffy turning up at all, but mostly - Spike is in a good place. He's living his life his own way, has set up his own agency and keeps a little flat (with a nicely large TV and much nicer furnishings than his S5 place). If there's anything missing from his life, then it's something he's prepared to live without.
All of which again has something to do with the stories having different focus etc.