"My name is... Spike. And I'm a bad, bad man. But as far as vampires go, I rank in the top two."

[elisi]

I am *so* going to have to get 'Shadow Puppets'... cause that - points to subject line - is some brilliant writing! :) Also - please tell me that there are icons of this image! *hugs Puppet!Spike* (ETA: Look what moscow_watcher made!!!) Oh and I am also very much in love with Puppet!Lorne. (Interview with Brian Lynch here, including the first 5 pages of 'Shadow Puppets', and interview with Joss here.)

******

OK, so I had vowed to myself not to touch the subject of S8 being ‘canon’ ever again (too pointless - someone stop me!), but then aycheb made me realise something very obvious about why I love the ending of ‘Chosen’ so very much [points to icon]:

Buffy at that moment has something priceless in her grasp: Freedom. The past is wiped out (literally) and the future is an open book - she can go anywhere, do anything. She can have a normal life, or fight alongside her fellow Slayers, or have fun with The Immortal in Rome, or marry Bob Dole and raise penguins in Guam, or...

‘The ending’ is a springboard to any and every possible story you want to imagine.

But the comics lock Buffy down again in a specific situation and place and saddle her with a whole boatload of new problems. And that can never be more than just *one* future - to borrow from Doctor Who, every choice creates a new reality. The comics are Joss’ reality, but they’re still just one amongst many.

As for Angel, then the end of ‘Not Fade Away’ was different, and yet the same. As David Fury put it:

...the last beat of the episode would be Angel and whoever was left of his crew about to launch into the apocalypse. My thought on that is, that's the perfect way to end the show. The point of Buffy was always girl power and showing that power. The point of Angel was always that the fight never ends. He'll always fight. It's an eternity of fighting. You can't ever win but the fight is worth fighting.

Rather than a new future, it was the perfect encapsulation of AtS: Angel will never be free. But - like S8 - whatever S6 brings it’ll only be one possible way for the story to continue. As for why I’m more excited... well Joss said it best here (although there are other reasons too):

We had NO IDEA where Angel had to go. And so he went everywhere, anywhere: up down, good, bad, left, farther left... off the edge of the world and home for supper

There’s no safety net.

ETA: Have been discussing the canon issue with ibmiller over on newly_legion. His argument (which is very sound) was this: So yeah, lots of sense made, but I think the basis is flawed. The show ended, perfectly. But it wasn't just a show, it was a story. And that goes on.

Which made me think a lot when I went to pick up the children from school. These were my thoughts:

For me, my response to Buffy was always (or at least post-FFL which was when I really fell hard) emotional. I have never, and will never, love a show the way I do Buffy (and AtS). I have never in my life cared as much about fictional characters as I do Buffy, Spike and Angel. It does things to me, this 'verse. The look on Spike's face when he sees Buffy come down the stairs in 'Afterlife'? I have no words to explain how that affects me. Or to explain how I felt when Spike got his soul. Or when Angel locked Dru and Darla in the basement with the lawyers... (to mention just a few moments). It knocks me out, it drags me down and pulls me up and turns me inside out. It makes me analyse every angle, makes me re-watch favourite scenes over and over, makes me read and write fanfiction like it is oxygen. If I didn't happen to be a Catholic I'd be a worshipper in the Church of Joss.

The comics don't do that to me. The story might go on, but in comic form I'm pretty much indifferent. It's just a story now, not magic.

I miss my show.

Comments

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

Well, also not of the "Joss is God" school here, and I'm also reader response, but I think authorial intent should count for a bit more than that.

More sobbingness. :_(

[the-royal-anna.livejournal.com]

Oh no! Now, the last thing I set out to do was make anyone cry, especially by my apparent lack of respect for Joss's input into his own work.

Not so long ago I spent two years working on a masters degree that wasn't to be, but the reason I mention it is because my thesis was on authorial intent in fiction. ;) And it's a subject on which I think people can only agree to differ, because it's so personal. After all, fiction is about letting somebody else inside your brain. Anyway, I'll spare you the longer version. ;)

If a song moves me to tears, who's responsible for that? The performer? The lyricist? The composer? Or is it owed in part to the musical heritage the song is drawn from: the composers who've influenced this composer; the writers who've inspired this writer; the songs that have set a precedent for this song? Or is it, perhaps, the person who said something to me this morning that has made this song, at this moment, particularly meaningful? Or the person the song reminds me of?

But for me that's never the question I'm interested in asking. It's more about, the experience of listening to this song meant something to me, so how do I share that? What does that inspire me to go on and do?

So much of being a fan of something is about looking for clues that other people experience it the same way I do. I know when somebody describes something in a way that doesn't click with the way I understand it. But the idea that there's a "canon" that we all either take on board or deviate from...I don't know, I just suspect that "canon" is a pretty subjective concept too. It's one of those things where it's easier to say what wasn't than what was, I think.

The comics are certainly interesting to me in terms of finding out how Joss sees his characters develop, and on past evidence I am very willing to believe that the stories will be wonderful. Whether what I read will be exactly what Joss intended me to read, I won't know. And I do think the debate about whether or not they represent canon is a fascinating one. What I don't get is the need to set down in stone somewhere that "this is what happened to the characters"; that strange need to reach out and tidy up what's inside other people's heads. Characters never make it from one person's head to another entirely whole. And these characters have made their way through an awful lot of heads.

For me, I think what it comes down to is that stories can't be owned. Only told.

I cling to this with a quasi-religious conviction (it is, essentially, a religious belief, I think, but that's another story) so no-one's going to persuade me otherwise. :) And for what it's worth, with it goes the belief that it is deeply important that stories are told.

[elisi]

I can't believe that I had you in my house and never tried to steal your brain! ;)

I'm a rush, so can't focuss on all your clever thoughts about autorial intent (which gave me much to think about!), and will just focus on the main point:

What I don't get is the need to set down in stone somewhere that "this is what happened to the characters"; that strange need to reach out and tidy up what's inside other people's heads.
Because that is *is* - exactly. That thing I've been trying to formulate for weeks now. Thank you!

*runs off again*

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm a college student. You can post or send me the whole thing and I'll probably read it until 4 in the morning (though I hope not - I need sleep).

I think canon is a fairly simple idea which just make communication easier. Rather than trying to figure out which Sherlock Holmes story tells the true part of Watson's arm, or where Turin really went after he was cursed and have to rely on several contradictory sources, there is a single endorsed story, hopefully free of major contradictions. This is not to say you have to like it, it's just to say it's the standard (not of excellence, but of what all people have access to). And I know those are loaded terms, but I think that too many people are not liking the comics as much as the show and thus redefining canon to mean "what I like" or "what moves me" rather than what it is: "what happened next."

I don't find Giant Dawn very interesting, and hope Joss fixes that soon. Cause I love Dawn muchly. But I still think that after Chosen, Dawn became a Giant.

And yes, we never experience exactly the same story. But I think in the interests of communication and relationships, there should be agreement on what happened as far as possible. It's not about dictating to others what they have to like or think is great - it's about talking to each other with the least amount of confusion and pain.

And I'm not sure I completely agree that stories can't be owned. I don't hold to the idea of a single story/monomyth (I'm way too individualistic for that), and think that though each reader brings their own set of experiences and values which subtly or dramatically change the author's intent into the reader's perception, there is and should be the common bond of the text (ooooh, there I go getting all New Critical, and I hate New Criticism, so I think I'll stop there).

Stories are the best and fullest way of communicating truth - even though our own lenses. Because if no one can truly know the truth of someone else's story, why bother to tell them at all? Without the belief that a person's soul and beliefs can be seen, however dimly, in a story, the exercise of Storytelling becomes like Andrew - making things up to make ourselves feel better. Storytelling isn't really about us as teller, it's about the teller and the listener connecting. We read to know we're not alone, I think, and if we don't, we will truly be alone.

Kay, done with the pretention now. You can slap me.

[the-royal-anna.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm a college student. You can post or send me the whole thing and I'll probably read it until 4 in the morning

Hee! Had it ever made it into comprehensive written form, I might actually have a master's degree. ;)

I like your definition of canon, but for me what you're describing is not "what happened to the characters" but "what we can all agree we saw on-screen". And yes, it is important there's a common thread - but for me the thread breaks when the show ends. If canon is that single endorsed storyline, I'm being asked to take a pretty big jump at one point along that line - and to leave a lot behind in doing so.

The comics are canon, but for me it isn't the same canon. Nor is the film. And in fact, even the Angelverse for me stands a little way from the Buffyverse - the boundaries are blurred, but I've always thought of them as slightly different worlds.

Canon for me is not "what I like" or "what moves me" - it's just that I cannot separate myself from the story. The indisputable facts - the content of the dialogue, what we saw on-screen - exist independently of me, but in my mind the fiction doesn't. Hee! I think that may be the most arrogant statement ever. Now that's pretentious for you. ;)

And I agree wholeheartedly with your last point about stories. (Hee, my dissertation may never have had an ending, but it did open with CS Lewis.) Actually, my point about stories being told rather than owned was essentially this: that you have to let go of a story for it to mean something.

You may not agree, but I think it's more or less the same point you were making. :)

Anyway, I've enjoyed this discussion but I must, must read the comics before I say another word about them. ;)

[elisi]

but for me what you're describing is not "what happened to the characters" but "what we can all agree we saw on-screen".
Now that is a very nice distinction.

If canon is that single endorsed storyline, I'm being asked to take a pretty big jump at one point along that line - and to leave a lot behind in doing so.
I'm working on a post about this whole thing - canon and fanfic and the distinction between characters and story, and how fanfic ties into all that... the keyword is 'blue sand'! *g* (I swear it makes sense!)

Will post it on monday, all being well. (And *do* read the comics - if you can't get at them, I'll be happy upload them again for you! And #3... Heh. There is much joy and happiness! :D

it's just that I cannot separate myself from the story. The indisputable facts - the content of the dialogue, what we saw on-screen - exist independently of me, but in my mind the fiction doesn't.
Yes! Precisely. :)

[the-royal-anna.livejournal.com]

Hee! I shall look forward to reading all about blue sand.

And thank you lots for the comics (to you and killerweasel). Maybe I'll get round to looking at them this weekend? I find comics - in general - very hard to read, for some reason. I think they're too grown-up for me. I'm more a picture book kind of a person. ;)

[elisi]

Hee! I shall look forward to reading all about blue sand.
It is a very neat metaphor and I'm rather pleased with it if I say so myself! *g*

I find comics - in general - very hard to read, for some reason. I think they're too grown-up for me.
Now I love comics - well *some* comics. Not the superhero ones (never actually read any, so can't really say though), but Elfquest was probably my first proper fannish obsession. Next time you come you'll have to borrow a few volumes - I really think you'd enjoy them (the pictures are *very* pretty - I spent years trying to draw them!).

Gah! Must run. Have a wonderful weekend if I don't see you before.

[the-royal-anna.livejournal.com]

You too! Enjoy the bank holiday. :)

You did introduce me briefly to Elfquest (I think I saw a picture or two via an online link) and it was pretty. But yes, I shall have to see it in its proper form!

(On the way to youth club this evening I was thinking about the fact that it's hard to make story independent of medium, too. If Buffy had always been a comic, it wouldn't have engaged me in the same way as the TV show - in fact, probably not at all, even if the plotlines had followed much the same course as the TV show did. A lot of what makes the story work for me has to do with the fact that it's a TV show. And the story is shaped by the medium too - there are things you can do with TV that you can't do with printed media, but equally there are constraints - budget, the demands of the network, what's physically possible, which cast are available, and so on. Hee! I'll stop now.)

(Also, I am secretly gleeful that you wrote "next time you come", because squeeee!)

[elisi]

I shall have to see it in its proper form!
It's one of my favourite stories *ever*, and perfectly illustrates your point above - it works so well *because* of the format. It might one day get animated, but any sort of 'live action' would be awful!

A lot of what makes the story work for me has to do with the fact that it's a TV show.
Blue sand. (::giggles::) (And - as I've said a few times recently - this icon beautifully illustrates the point. *Movement* is such a big part of the appeal! :))

Also, I am secretly gleeful that you wrote "next time you come", because squeeee!
There *has* to be a next time - I'd love to visit you, but realistically I think it has to be the other way around... (all those children, sigh).