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"My name is... Spike. And I'm a bad, bad man. But as far as vampires go, I rank in the top two."

I am *so* going to have to get 'Shadow Puppets'... cause that - points to subject line - is some brilliant writing! :) Also - please tell me that there are icons of this image! *hugs Puppet!Spike* (ETA: Look what moscow_watcher made!!!) Oh and I am also very much in love with Puppet!Lorne. (Interview with Brian Lynch here, including the first 5 pages of 'Shadow Puppets', and interview with Joss here.)

******

OK, so I had vowed to myself not to touch the subject of S8 being ‘canon’ ever again (too pointless - someone stop me!), but then

aycheb made me realise something very obvious about why I love the ending of ‘Chosen’ so very much [points to icon]:

Buffy at that moment has something priceless in her grasp: Freedom. The past is wiped out (literally) and the future is an open book - she can go anywhere, do anything. She can have a normal life, or fight alongside her fellow Slayers, or have fun with The Immortal in Rome, or marry Bob Dole and raise penguins in Guam, or...

‘The ending’ is a springboard to any and every possible story you want to imagine.

But the comics lock Buffy down again in a specific situation and place and saddle her with a whole boatload of new problems. And that can never be more than just *one* future - to borrow from Doctor Who, every choice creates a new reality. The comics are Joss’ reality, but they’re still just one amongst many.

As for Angel, then the end of ‘Not Fade Away’ was different, and yet the same. As David Fury put it:

...the last beat of the episode would be Angel and whoever was left of his crew about to launch into the apocalypse. My thought on that is, that's the perfect way to end the show. The point of Buffy was always girl power and showing that power. The point of Angel was always that the fight never ends. He'll always fight. It's an eternity of fighting. You can't ever win but the fight is worth fighting.

Rather than a new future, it was the perfect encapsulation of AtS: Angel will never be free. But - like S8 - whatever S6 brings it’ll only be one possible way for the story to continue. As for why I’m more excited... well Joss said it best here (although there are other reasons too):

We had NO IDEA where Angel had to go. And so he went everywhere, anywhere: up down, good, bad, left, farther left... off the edge of the world and home for supper

There’s no safety net.

ETA: Have been discussing the canon issue with

ibmiller over on

newly_legion. His argument (which is very sound) was this: So yeah, lots of sense made, but I think the basis is flawed. The show ended, perfectly. But it wasn't just a show, it was a story. And that goes on.

Which made me think a lot when I went to pick up the children from school. These were my thoughts:

For me, my response to Buffy was always (or at least post-FFL which was when I really fell hard) emotional. I have never, and will never, love a show the way I do Buffy (and AtS). I have never in my life cared as much about fictional characters as I do Buffy, Spike and Angel. It does things to me, this 'verse. The look on Spike's face when he sees Buffy come down the stairs in 'Afterlife'? I have no words to explain how that affects me. Or to explain how I felt when Spike got his soul. Or when Angel locked Dru and Darla in the basement with the lawyers... (to mention just a few moments). It knocks me out, it drags me down and pulls me up and turns me inside out. It makes me analyse every angle, makes me re-watch favourite scenes over and over, makes me read and write fanfiction like it is oxygen. If I didn't happen to be a Catholic I'd be a worshipper in the Church of Joss.

The comics don't do that to me. The story might go on, but in comic form I'm pretty much indifferent. It's just a story now, not magic.

I miss my show.

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My feelings about the comics has come down to one fact - Joss has dictated they are canon - ergo, they are canon.

I think the ending of B5 was the perfect stopping point for Buffy's story. She'd given all she had to give and left the fight. But the show went on for two more seasons. If Joss had decided that Buffy's story was over at that point, it would be over. But he's decided he does have more story to tell. He's writing that story. In the world of Buffy he is God.

You have the absolutely perfect right to ignore the comics and to consider the story closed. Or write your own version of what happened post-Chosen. I'm certainly not going to tell you you have to accept the comics as canon.

I, however, do consider them canon, and I'm happy for it. :)

I'm very happy that you're happy - but the more I ponder the issue, the more I miss what we used to have. *sigh*

OMG, Puppet Spike and Puppet Lorne are so incredibly cute!! :D

Also - please tell me that there are icons of this image! *hugs Puppet!Spike*

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

:))))

SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

*has enormous grin on face*

And now I have to go figure out which icon to delete...

Aren't they just?

After reading a lot of the discussion, I realized that my view of canon is probably a bit different because I'm not a fanfic writer. The details from the show, portrayals, interactions of the actors, etc. don't capture my imagination from a creative perspective so it's easier for me to separate the story and the medium.

But aside from the canon debate, I can certainly identify with your love of the show. I was never tempted to join any fandom until I discovered Buffy.

It knocks me out, it drags me down and pulls me up and turns me inside out. It makes me analyse every angle, makes me re-watch favourite scenes over and over...

About this, we agree 100% :)

I realized that my view of canon is probably a bit different because I'm not a fanfic writer.
Now that's an interesting angle. But I'm not sure that's it - well not for me anyway. I know that the *exact* point when my head-over-heels obsession began was the end of 'Grave' (see icon! *g*), which was a year before I discovered fandom and two years before I began writing. I think that medium and story were always just too tightly entwined for me to separate them... Now to choose a different example I love the LoTR films, but that is in great part because they manage to transfer what I see in my head onto film - make it bigger. There are obstacles (I never thought that Pippin looked right), but mostly it works. But then I don't love LoTR in the same way I love Buffy...

About this, we agree 100% :)
I think that goes for most of us. :)

I haven't read the comic yet, although I have it saved on my ::sob:: laptop. :) So this isn't exactly an informed opinion, but for me it's fanfic written by Joss.

I think the thing about story is it isn't passive - it's something you live as it unfolds. It's meaningful because your life is full of its own stories; story is the way we make sense of the world we live in. Season 6 Buffy was a friend to me when I desperately needed one - we screwed up a lot of things in our lives together. And yes, that sounds outrageously deluded, but it's not that I lived that year in a fantasy world alongside fictional characters, but simply that a story reached out and touched me, and it mattered. Joss does get some of the credit for that, and so does SMG, and other people that helped make the show. But the context for me is much bigger than that. It's a story that's shaped by its audience as well, by everyone that the story meant something to. It's a story shaped by people in my life who have nothing whatsoever to do with the show, but have helped define the way I respond to things, have helped build the context in which I make meaning.

I never can subscribe to the "Joss is God" school of thinking. Buffy, Angel and Firefly are easily the best three shows I've seen on TV, and given that Joss is the common denominator, I think it's fair to say that his gift for storytelling is exceptional, and one that touches me in a way I am ever grateful for. He tells stories with huge heart and inextinguishable hope, stories that make you look at the world with a greater determination to play your part in it.

But the stories themselves are not Joss's. They are age-old, infinite stories. They are told in a way that makes them ring out like bells: clear and resonant; something that stirs you from within; stories that go beyond words. That's what Joss shows do so beautifully. But the reason the stories mattered so much is not, I think, that Joss wrote them.

The best fiction is true beyond its words. My canon is not just what happened on the show but the story it told me, and that's something more.

But the comics lock Buffy down again in a specific situation and place and saddle her with a whole boatload of new problems.

I think that is why the comics seem like fanfiction to me- because that's exactly what post-Chosen fanfic does.

I am v. sleepy and have nothing to add to your beautiful words except to say that as usual you manage to formulate things I know to be true, but was never able to formulte properly.

The best fiction is true beyond its words. My canon is not just what happened on the show but the story it told me, and that's something more.
Many times yes. Truth is not original - I see echoes of Buffy/Spike in other love stories I hold dear (esp. Peter Wimsey & Harriet Vane - to be loved for who you are, complete with all flaws, is such a wonderful thing!).

I haven't read the comic yet, although I have it saved on my ::sob:: laptop. :)
*cough*

So this isn't exactly an informed opinion, but for me it's fanfic written by Joss.
That's how it feels for me. As I've said a few times the last few days, Comic!Buffy is *a* Buffy, not *the* Buffy.

Thank you so much for your wonderful, thoughtful reply - I love your head! *hugs*

because that's exactly what post-Chosen fanfic does.
It's the way to tell a story of course. But it quite simply just slots in amongst all the other stories, only carrying slightly more weight because it is possible to base fanfic upon it if necessary. But it's not my show. *sigh*

Buffy at that moment has something priceless in her grasp: Freedom.
Who doesn’t love the sight of virgin snow. But to my mind ever since that moment people have been trampling backwards and forward across it. From fanfic to meta, from impassioned discussions and scholarly articles to wank wars and recurrent kerfuffles. By now the idea that Joss is going to march in leaving a trail of giant purply footprints we can follow to some strange new vista? I’m so ready for that.

Comic!Buffy is *a* Buffy, not *the* Buffy
But possibly show!Buffy is not *the Buffy* either. It’s like Anna said, the story told by the show is bigger than the pixels on the screen but it’s a different story and a different *Buffy* for everyone who watches it. My Buffy, for example, isn’t so much the one who inspired Spike but the one who tried not to let her friends know what they’d done at the end of Afterlife, the one who was painfully figuring out what made her alone in CWDP and the one who turned to tell Faith “Protect them, lead them” at the end of Empty Places. It’s too early to say whether the comics will tell an equally resonant story but the set up so far and the fact that Joss is writing it makes me hopeful.

Good point about show Buffy not being "the" Buffy. Especially when you consider how much Sarah Michelle Gellar herself changed over seven years.

Interesting...my point was before I'd watched a single episode, but was reading episode summaries on Wikipeida, and I got to the end of Beneath You. And Spike's speech made me watch all 144 episodes just to get to that point.

But to my mind ever since that moment people have been trampling backwards and forward across it.
Ah, but that's my point. See the show brought us to that moment at the edge of the crater. It told the story of Buffy: The Slayer on The Hellmouth in Sunnydale. It was a whole world with places and people that we knew and loved - a whole mirco-cosm: Buffy's World. But Chosen changed all that. It destroyed the Hellmouth, it destroyed Sunnydale and it even changed Buffy's identity. At the end of the show they (as Joss keeps saying in the comic) changed the world. And every post-Chosen fic that's ever been written is an attempt to show that new world, to fill in details. And for me a comic book could never carry the weight of saying: *This* is Buffy's new world, above all others.

That point at the end of Chosen is where all new stories flow from, out in every direction. The snow is trampled all over the place and it's brilliant.

it’s a different story and a different *Buffy* for everyone who watches it.
Oh absolutely. I just think that in comic form Buffy is somewhat reduced.

What I said to aycheb.

I'd say more, but I'm getting sleepy. And anyway, I presume you've read the David Fury quote by now! ;)

I can understand that. ::loves Beneath You::

My AtS watching was sort-of the same way. The first episode I ever saw was 'Home' and it was *fascinating* to watch it from the beginning, wondering how they were going to end up in that place. (Esp looked forward to seeing Wes/Lilah unfold.)

Oooooh, I love Home! "Flames wouldn't be eternal if they ever actually consumed anything." So true, and cool, and heartbreaking! Even though I'm also a Wes/Fred shipper, I love Wes/Lilah in season four.

Read the Fury quote, disagree with interp, commented, all that jazz. I think I replied to the thoughts to aycheb on newly_legion, so I direct peeps there. Hee. I'm so lazy.

Well, also not of the "Joss is God" school here, and I'm also reader response, but I think authorial intent should count for a bit more than that.

More sobbingness. :_(

Laziness is very much of the good...

Although - these are all new thoughts, just posted. Not that you have to reply of course, but basically I do not think the worldbuilding skills of a comic are sufficient to render all other stories AU. (Or *more* AU, rather).

Hmmmm. I disagree. But naturally, since that's my whole position. Disagreement on principal! Do I disagree? No! Oh, wait, that's self-contradictory. Oh, well.

But really, I think the comics will be good. And look forward to weeping over them soon. Um, Joss? Hurry them up!

But naturally, since that's my whole position.
Heh.

But really, I think the comics will be good. And look forward to weeping over them soon. Um, Joss? Hurry them up!
No disagreement there! :)

"Flames wouldn't be eternal if they ever actually consumed anything."
Wes/Lilah really are the AtS equivalent of S6 Spuffy. Oh how I love characters that are screwed up!

Except that because Angel wasn't as hopeful, there was little redemption for poor Lilah. I wish they'd done more with that, but really all she does that's positive is care about Wes. Not much more. Wes, though, was cool. Not as cool as Spike, but who is. But I didn't love the line because they were screwed up, I liked it because I thought it expressed theological truth in a great and memorable way. But then, I'm weird like that.

there was little redemption for poor Lilah
True, but then in a way that would have felt like a cop-out. And the important factor is of course that Wesley couldn't save her. Oh Wesley... he couldn't save anyone (except maybe Illyria), not even himself.

But I didn't love the line because they were screwed up, I liked it because I thought it expressed theological truth in a great and memorable way. But then, I'm weird like that.
Oh no, not weird at all, because I feel the same way. I love the *relationship* for being screwed up, but also for having at its center something real, something true - which of course is what Wesley's attempt at saving her is all about. "But it matters that you tried." ::sobs:: I was sat waiting and waiting for them to hook up for 3 seasons... it was a long wait, but definitely worth it!

How would it be a cop out? But agreed about Wes - someone once said that his most appealing quality was that he was a man who always failed, but did so in such a noble fashion you couldn't help weeping for him. Or something like that.

Ah, dear. I still love Fred. And I've never seen Wes's love for her as an obsession with something pure, with the ideal of purity. But then, I never watched season three, so I don't really know the details of the relationship through the Gunn phase.

How would it be a cop out?
"I knew what I signed up for." That's not to say that she *couldn't* be redeemed, but it'd be like bringing back Wesley or Anya... they chose their fate with open eyes and had to live (or die, rather) with that.

Oh I love Fred too - and not just because I'm very Fred-like. The end of 'Shells' just kills me. As for Wesley's love... oh, I couldn't begin to probe that. Although his line "I've loved you since I've known you. Maybe even before." does say a lot, because it took him a good few months to fall for her after they brought her back from Pylea.

I never watched season three
This is something you must remedy as soon as possible! Season 3 has *so* much great stuff, and such unbearable tragedy, that I can only watch it because I know it's all going to turn out OK. Well, more or less. ;) And Offspring/Quickening/Lullaby, Loyalty/Sleep Tight/Forgiving and A New World/Benediction/Tomorrow is some of the best TV ever produced! I want to go re-watch it now! (Yes they screwed up Cordy, but if you see her as being influenced by Jasmine as soon as she gets upgraded to part-demon in 'Birthday' it really helps a lot!)

Oh no! Now, the last thing I set out to do was make anyone cry, especially by my apparent lack of respect for Joss's input into his own work.

Not so long ago I spent two years working on a masters degree that wasn't to be, but the reason I mention it is because my thesis was on authorial intent in fiction. ;) And it's a subject on which I think people can only agree to differ, because it's so personal. After all, fiction is about letting somebody else inside your brain. Anyway, I'll spare you the longer version. ;)

If a song moves me to tears, who's responsible for that? The performer? The lyricist? The composer? Or is it owed in part to the musical heritage the song is drawn from: the composers who've influenced this composer; the writers who've inspired this writer; the songs that have set a precedent for this song? Or is it, perhaps, the person who said something to me this morning that has made this song, at this moment, particularly meaningful? Or the person the song reminds me of?

But for me that's never the question I'm interested in asking. It's more about, the experience of listening to this song meant something to me, so how do I share that? What does that inspire me to go on and do?

So much of being a fan of something is about looking for clues that other people experience it the same way I do. I know when somebody describes something in a way that doesn't click with the way I understand it. But the idea that there's a "canon" that we all either take on board or deviate from...I don't know, I just suspect that "canon" is a pretty subjective concept too. It's one of those things where it's easier to say what wasn't than what was, I think.

The comics are certainly interesting to me in terms of finding out how Joss sees his characters develop, and on past evidence I am very willing to believe that the stories will be wonderful. Whether what I read will be exactly what Joss intended me to read, I won't know. And I do think the debate about whether or not they represent canon is a fascinating one. What I don't get is the need to set down in stone somewhere that "this is what happened to the characters"; that strange need to reach out and tidy up what's inside other people's heads. Characters never make it from one person's head to another entirely whole. And these characters have made their way through an awful lot of heads.

For me, I think what it comes down to is that stories can't be owned. Only told.

I cling to this with a quasi-religious conviction (it is, essentially, a religious belief, I think, but that's another story) so no-one's going to persuade me otherwise. :) And for what it's worth, with it goes the belief that it is deeply important that stories are told.

I can't believe that I had you in my house and never tried to steal your brain! ;)

I'm a rush, so can't focuss on all your clever thoughts about autorial intent (which gave me much to think about!), and will just focus on the main point:

What I don't get is the need to set down in stone somewhere that "this is what happened to the characters"; that strange need to reach out and tidy up what's inside other people's heads.
Because that is *is* - exactly. That thing I've been trying to formulate for weeks now. Thank you!

*runs off again*

Oh, I'm a college student. You can post or send me the whole thing and I'll probably read it until 4 in the morning (though I hope not - I need sleep).

I think canon is a fairly simple idea which just make communication easier. Rather than trying to figure out which Sherlock Holmes story tells the true part of Watson's arm, or where Turin really went after he was cursed and have to rely on several contradictory sources, there is a single endorsed story, hopefully free of major contradictions. This is not to say you have to like it, it's just to say it's the standard (not of excellence, but of what all people have access to). And I know those are loaded terms, but I think that too many people are not liking the comics as much as the show and thus redefining canon to mean "what I like" or "what moves me" rather than what it is: "what happened next."

I don't find Giant Dawn very interesting, and hope Joss fixes that soon. Cause I love Dawn muchly. But I still think that after Chosen, Dawn became a Giant.

And yes, we never experience exactly the same story. But I think in the interests of communication and relationships, there should be agreement on what happened as far as possible. It's not about dictating to others what they have to like or think is great - it's about talking to each other with the least amount of confusion and pain.

And I'm not sure I completely agree that stories can't be owned. I don't hold to the idea of a single story/monomyth (I'm way too individualistic for that), and think that though each reader brings their own set of experiences and values which subtly or dramatically change the author's intent into the reader's perception, there is and should be the common bond of the text (ooooh, there I go getting all New Critical, and I hate New Criticism, so I think I'll stop there).

Stories are the best and fullest way of communicating truth - even though our own lenses. Because if no one can truly know the truth of someone else's story, why bother to tell them at all? Without the belief that a person's soul and beliefs can be seen, however dimly, in a story, the exercise of Storytelling becomes like Andrew - making things up to make ourselves feel better. Storytelling isn't really about us as teller, it's about the teller and the listener connecting. We read to know we're not alone, I think, and if we don't, we will truly be alone.

Kay, done with the pretention now. You can slap me.

Oh, I'm a college student. You can post or send me the whole thing and I'll probably read it until 4 in the morning

Hee! Had it ever made it into comprehensive written form, I might actually have a master's degree. ;)

I like your definition of canon, but for me what you're describing is not "what happened to the characters" but "what we can all agree we saw on-screen". And yes, it is important there's a common thread - but for me the thread breaks when the show ends. If canon is that single endorsed storyline, I'm being asked to take a pretty big jump at one point along that line - and to leave a lot behind in doing so.

The comics are canon, but for me it isn't the same canon. Nor is the film. And in fact, even the Angelverse for me stands a little way from the Buffyverse - the boundaries are blurred, but I've always thought of them as slightly different worlds.

Canon for me is not "what I like" or "what moves me" - it's just that I cannot separate myself from the story. The indisputable facts - the content of the dialogue, what we saw on-screen - exist independently of me, but in my mind the fiction doesn't. Hee! I think that may be the most arrogant statement ever. Now that's pretentious for you. ;)

And I agree wholeheartedly with your last point about stories. (Hee, my dissertation may never have had an ending, but it did open with CS Lewis.) Actually, my point about stories being told rather than owned was essentially this: that you have to let go of a story for it to mean something.

You may not agree, but I think it's more or less the same point you were making. :)

Anyway, I've enjoyed this discussion but I must, must read the comics before I say another word about them. ;)

but for me what you're describing is not "what happened to the characters" but "what we can all agree we saw on-screen".
Now that is a very nice distinction.

If canon is that single endorsed storyline, I'm being asked to take a pretty big jump at one point along that line - and to leave a lot behind in doing so.
I'm working on a post about this whole thing - canon and fanfic and the distinction between characters and story, and how fanfic ties into all that... the keyword is 'blue sand'! *g* (I swear it makes sense!)

Will post it on monday, all being well. (And *do* read the comics - if you can't get at them, I'll be happy upload them again for you! And #3... Heh. There is much joy and happiness! :D

it's just that I cannot separate myself from the story. The indisputable facts - the content of the dialogue, what we saw on-screen - exist independently of me, but in my mind the fiction doesn't.
Yes! Precisely. :)

Hee! I shall look forward to reading all about blue sand.

And thank you lots for the comics (to you and

killerweasel). Maybe I'll get round to looking at them this weekend? I find comics - in general - very hard to read, for some reason. I think they're too grown-up for me. I'm more a picture book kind of a person. ;)

Hee! I shall look forward to reading all about blue sand.
It is a very neat metaphor and I'm rather pleased with it if I say so myself! *g*

I find comics - in general - very hard to read, for some reason. I think they're too grown-up for me.
Now I love comics - well *some* comics. Not the superhero ones (never actually read any, so can't really say though), but Elfquest was probably my first proper fannish obsession. Next time you come you'll have to borrow a few volumes - I really think you'd enjoy them (the pictures are *very* pretty - I spent years trying to draw them!).

Gah! Must run. Have a wonderful weekend if I don't see you before.

You too! Enjoy the bank holiday. :)

You did introduce me briefly to Elfquest (I think I saw a picture or two via an online link) and it was pretty. But yes, I shall have to see it in its proper form!

(On the way to youth club this evening I was thinking about the fact that it's hard to make story independent of medium, too. If Buffy had always been a comic, it wouldn't have engaged me in the same way as the TV show - in fact, probably not at all, even if the plotlines had followed much the same course as the TV show did. A lot of what makes the story work for me has to do with the fact that it's a TV show. And the story is shaped by the medium too - there are things you can do with TV that you can't do with printed media, but equally there are constraints - budget, the demands of the network, what's physically possible, which cast are available, and so on. Hee! I'll stop now.)

(Also, I am secretly gleeful that you wrote "next time you come", because squeeee!)

I shall have to see it in its proper form!
It's one of my favourite stories *ever*, and perfectly illustrates your point above - it works so well *because* of the format. It might one day get animated, but any sort of 'live action' would be awful!

A lot of what makes the story work for me has to do with the fact that it's a TV show.
Blue sand. (::giggles::) (And - as I've said a few times recently - this icon beautifully illustrates the point. *Movement* is such a big part of the appeal! :))

Also, I am secretly gleeful that you wrote "next time you come", because squeeee!
There *has* to be a next time - I'd love to visit you, but realistically I think it has to be the other way around... (all those children, sigh).

Oh absolutely. I just think that in comic form Buffy is somewhat reduced.

My opinion of the fact is biased, but I can't get into comics, even if I wanted to. It's not the medium, per se - I used to read loads of manga and its form never bothered me. What does bother me is the ugliness of the drawings. I'm sorry, there's no other way around it - I wish Joss found a better artist - why d.ex. not hire full time the one who did the covers? They're stunningly beautiful and I can't help but wonder what would it be like if she worked on entire visuals. Buffy was not only a story, it was the music, lightning, sets, actors - take that away and along goes my canon and my investment.

*nods along to everything*

Although I doubt that even Jo Chen could reconcile me to the story he's telling, it would certainly *help* not to have the pictures be so *very* ugly... (I don't read the comics, but whenever I have a look at a preview page I sort of recoil at the hideousness.)

Buffy was not only a story, it was the music, lightning, sets, actors - take that away and along goes my canon and my investment.
Exactly.

Also thank you for commenting on this old post! :)

Season 6 Buffy was a friend to me when I desperately needed one - we screwed up a lot of things in our lives together. And yes, that sounds outrageously deluded, but it's not that I lived that year in a fantasy world alongside fictional characters, but simply that a story reached out and touched me, and it mattered. Joss does get some of the credit for that, and so does SMG, and other people that helped make the show. But the context for me is much bigger than that. It's a story that's shaped by its audience as well, by everyone that the story meant something to. It's a story shaped by people in my life who have nothing whatsoever to do with the show, but have helped define the way I respond to things, have helped build the context in which I make meaning.

I could quote this entire post but that would be silly but as usual, Anna, you've summed up so much of what I FEEL about Buffy, the show and the character(s), and why she's a hero to me now, finding her this year, in my mid-40's (for goodness sake.) I'm in perfect agreement with you here in every word.

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"My name is... Spike. And I'm a bad, bad man. But as far as vampires go, I rank in the top two."

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SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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