elisi | "My name is... Spike. And I'm a bad, bad man. But as far as vampires go, I rank in the top two."

I am *so* going to have to get 'Shadow Puppets'... cause that - points to subject line - is some brilliant writing! :) Also - please tell me that there are icons of this image! *hugs Puppet!Spike* (ETA: Look what moscow_watcher made!!!) Oh and I am also very much in love with Puppet!Lorne. (Interview with Brian Lynch here, including the first 5 pages of 'Shadow Puppets', and interview with Joss here.)

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OK, so I had vowed to myself not to touch the subject of S8 being ‘canon’ ever again (too pointless - someone stop me!), but then

aycheb made me realise something very obvious about why I love the ending of ‘Chosen’ so very much [points to icon]:

Buffy at that moment has something priceless in her grasp: Freedom. The past is wiped out (literally) and the future is an open book - she can go anywhere, do anything. She can have a normal life, or fight alongside her fellow Slayers, or have fun with The Immortal in Rome, or marry Bob Dole and raise penguins in Guam, or...

‘The ending’ is a springboard to any and every possible story you want to imagine.

But the comics lock Buffy down again in a specific situation and place and saddle her with a whole boatload of new problems. And that can never be more than just *one* future - to borrow from Doctor Who, every choice creates a new reality. The comics are Joss’ reality, but they’re still just one amongst many.

As for Angel, then the end of ‘Not Fade Away’ was different, and yet the same. As David Fury put it:

...the last beat of the episode would be Angel and whoever was left of his crew about to launch into the apocalypse. My thought on that is, that's the perfect way to end the show. The point of Buffy was always girl power and showing that power. The point of Angel was always that the fight never ends. He'll always fight. It's an eternity of fighting. You can't ever win but the fight is worth fighting.

Rather than a new future, it was the perfect encapsulation of AtS: Angel will never be free. But - like S8 - whatever S6 brings it’ll only be one possible way for the story to continue. As for why I’m more excited... well Joss said it best here (although there are other reasons too):

We had NO IDEA where Angel had to go. And so he went everywhere, anywhere: up down, good, bad, left, farther left... off the edge of the world and home for supper

There’s no safety net.

ETA: Have been discussing the canon issue with

ibmiller over on

newly_legion. His argument (which is very sound) was this: So yeah, lots of sense made, but I think the basis is flawed. The show ended, perfectly. But it wasn't just a show, it was a story. And that goes on.

Which made me think a lot when I went to pick up the children from school. These were my thoughts:

For me, my response to Buffy was always (or at least post-FFL which was when I really fell hard) emotional. I have never, and will never, love a show the way I do Buffy (and AtS). I have never in my life cared as much about fictional characters as I do Buffy, Spike and Angel. It does things to me, this 'verse. The look on Spike's face when he sees Buffy come down the stairs in 'Afterlife'? I have no words to explain how that affects me. Or to explain how I felt when Spike got his soul. Or when Angel locked Dru and Darla in the basement with the lawyers... (to mention just a few moments). It knocks me out, it drags me down and pulls me up and turns me inside out. It makes me analyse every angle, makes me re-watch favourite scenes over and over, makes me read and write fanfiction like it is oxygen. If I didn't happen to be a Catholic I'd be a worshipper in the Church of Joss.

The comics don't do that to me. The story might go on, but in comic form I'm pretty much indifferent. It's just a story now, not magic.

I miss my show.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Oh, I'm a college student. You can post or send me the whole thing and I'll probably read it until 4 in the morning

Hee! Had it ever made it into comprehensive written form, I might actually have a master's degree. ;)

I like your definition of canon, but for me what you're describing is not "what happened to the characters" but "what we can all agree we saw on-screen". And yes, it is important there's a common thread - but for me the thread breaks when the show ends. If canon is that single endorsed storyline, I'm being asked to take a pretty big jump at one point along that line - and to leave a lot behind in doing so.

The comics are canon, but for me it isn't the same canon. Nor is the film. And in fact, even the Angelverse for me stands a little way from the Buffyverse - the boundaries are blurred, but I've always thought of them as slightly different worlds.

Canon for me is not "what I like" or "what moves me" - it's just that I cannot separate myself from the story. The indisputable facts - the content of the dialogue, what we saw on-screen - exist independently of me, but in my mind the fiction doesn't. Hee! I think that may be the most arrogant statement ever. Now that's pretentious for you. ;)

And I agree wholeheartedly with your last point about stories. (Hee, my dissertation may never have had an ending, but it did open with CS Lewis.) Actually, my point about stories being told rather than owned was essentially this: that you have to let go of a story for it to mean something.

You may not agree, but I think it's more or less the same point you were making. :)

Anyway, I've enjoyed this discussion but I must, must read the comics before I say another word about them. ;)

but for me what you're describing is not "what happened to the characters" but "what we can all agree we saw on-screen".
Now that is a very nice distinction.

If canon is that single endorsed storyline, I'm being asked to take a pretty big jump at one point along that line - and to leave a lot behind in doing so.
I'm working on a post about this whole thing - canon and fanfic and the distinction between characters and story, and how fanfic ties into all that... the keyword is 'blue sand'! *g* (I swear it makes sense!)

Will post it on monday, all being well. (And *do* read the comics - if you can't get at them, I'll be happy upload them again for you! And #3... Heh. There is much joy and happiness! :D

it's just that I cannot separate myself from the story. The indisputable facts - the content of the dialogue, what we saw on-screen - exist independently of me, but in my mind the fiction doesn't.
Yes! Precisely. :)

Hee! I shall look forward to reading all about blue sand.

And thank you lots for the comics (to you and

killerweasel). Maybe I'll get round to looking at them this weekend? I find comics - in general - very hard to read, for some reason. I think they're too grown-up for me. I'm more a picture book kind of a person. ;)

Hee! I shall look forward to reading all about blue sand.
It is a very neat metaphor and I'm rather pleased with it if I say so myself! *g*

I find comics - in general - very hard to read, for some reason. I think they're too grown-up for me.
Now I love comics - well *some* comics. Not the superhero ones (never actually read any, so can't really say though), but Elfquest was probably my first proper fannish obsession. Next time you come you'll have to borrow a few volumes - I really think you'd enjoy them (the pictures are *very* pretty - I spent years trying to draw them!).

Gah! Must run. Have a wonderful weekend if I don't see you before.

You too! Enjoy the bank holiday. :)

You did introduce me briefly to Elfquest (I think I saw a picture or two via an online link) and it was pretty. But yes, I shall have to see it in its proper form!

(On the way to youth club this evening I was thinking about the fact that it's hard to make story independent of medium, too. If Buffy had always been a comic, it wouldn't have engaged me in the same way as the TV show - in fact, probably not at all, even if the plotlines had followed much the same course as the TV show did. A lot of what makes the story work for me has to do with the fact that it's a TV show. And the story is shaped by the medium too - there are things you can do with TV that you can't do with printed media, but equally there are constraints - budget, the demands of the network, what's physically possible, which cast are available, and so on. Hee! I'll stop now.)

(Also, I am secretly gleeful that you wrote "next time you come", because squeeee!)

I shall have to see it in its proper form!
It's one of my favourite stories *ever*, and perfectly illustrates your point above - it works so well *because* of the format. It might one day get animated, but any sort of 'live action' would be awful!

A lot of what makes the story work for me has to do with the fact that it's a TV show.
Blue sand. (::giggles::) (And - as I've said a few times recently - this icon beautifully illustrates the point. *Movement* is such a big part of the appeal! :))

Also, I am secretly gleeful that you wrote "next time you come", because squeeee!
There *has* to be a next time - I'd love to visit you, but realistically I think it has to be the other way around... (all those children, sigh).

"My name is... Spike. And I'm a bad, bad man. But as far as vampires go, I rank in the top two."

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