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Hello there! I'm around - honestly. Just... busy. Having a life is seriously awkward. But - I have a question: Does anyone know where I could find a Christmas banner? It's almost December and I'd like to decorate! :)

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The central theme of S3 of AtS is 'deception' I think - or maybe 'secrets and lies'. *Everyone* keeps secrets, and usually the outcome is dire. Anyone feel like writing about that in detail is more than welcome! Which is my roundabout way of telling you that AOQ is really coming round to AtS. From his review of 'Tomorrow':

Thoughts on Season Three:
Finally ATS comes into its own. Even with the forays into melodrama and the ill-advised diversions mid-season, Angel had momentum this year and stuck with it. S3 started a bit slow, but episodes like "Billy" and "Lullaby" are a good demonstration of how to build to transitional episodes that can be the belated climax of old stories while starting new ones... a skill that they'd perfected by the time of "Forgiving." I was worried about post-Sahjhan letdown, but Connor's story snapped very effectively into place, while continuing the ATS tradition of being a very inward-looking show, about individuals and angst rather than apocalypse-plurals. It could be argued that the difference compared to S2 is that S3 used more series-specific players and fewer Buffy holdovers, but that's more coincidence than anything else; the Darla arc last year was also something that felt like it could only be done on ATS. But although S2 reached some high peaks, it was hampered at every turn by the show's frustratingly persistent inability to properly resolve the fascinating stories it set up; I remember S2 just as much for disappointments like "Redefinition" and its immediate follow-ups, "Epiphany," and of course Pylea. Not so much of that in the final third of this season - and this time it's really the final third that dominates my perceptions of S3, since the period from "Loyalty" on is easily the best continuous run in ATS's lifetime.

Me? I've been mostly squeeing over Wesley... *deeeeep sigh* (And you should all watch here by Luminosity! Go!)

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And finally... I've got a new plot bunny! I'll blame it on

germaine_pet, although the other S/A shippers on my flist can also claim responsibility if they want. It's the sequel to 'Maybe Someday' - Spike, Angel and Illyria trying to defeat the Senior Partners - which I've been avoiding because I suck at plot and didn't have a clue how to proceed. Well now I do - only the big main outlines, but I can see how it's supposed to go and I'm itching to write. And it'll have a very definite S/A slant... (not lots of fighting interspersed with sex - actually no sex at all - nor any handholding and Spike won't be calling Angel 'Sire', so probably not recognisably Spangel-y to anyone except me, but... pretty vampires with lots of history!) So, if you don't see me around, it's because I'm trying to finish all my WIPs so I can concentrate on my shiny new bunny!

ETA: I will not be breaking the pretty Spuffy - don't worry!

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The way I see it, S3 is the AtS equivalent of BtVS S6 in that the real enemy was the heroes themselves. Like the Trio in S6, Sahjhan, Holtz and the others are just catalysts and the real danger is coming from inside the 'family' (Cordy's visions killing her, the Wes/Gunn/Fred triangle, Wes not trusting anyone else with the prophecy, Angel becoming obsessed with revenge after Connor's disappearance).

In both seasons most of the problems would have been avoided if they'd all just once sat down and really talked things through. I have this really insane crack-fic bunny where either the Scoobies or the Fang Gang are guests on Doctor Phil

I have a suspicion that the central message of both shows is 'DON'T KEEP SECRETS!'

I have this really insane crack-fic bunny where either the Scoobies or the Fang Gang are guests on Doctor Phil
I would *love* to read that!!!!

I have this really insane crack-fic bunny where either the Scoobies or the Fang Gang are guests on Doctor Phil

I would kill to read that fic! This bunny must be written!! :D

Hello there! I'm around - honestly. Just... busy. Having a life is seriously awkward.

I know the feeling. I'm having the same problem.

Yay! A sequel to 'Maybe Someday'.

I'm having the same problem.
What I need is someone to pay me for fandommy stuff...

Yay! A sequel to 'Maybe Someday'
Heee - thanks! Now I just need time!

I agree that the latter half of S3 is probably one of the best runs ever on AtS - from Loyalty onwards - but I adore Darla so much that my favourite ever episodes of the show have to the three surrounding the birth of Connor.

Have never been able to understand why people don't like this season (unless they're disappointed Bangels who don't like the Angel/Cordy stuff).

As for your interpretation of Spangel - it's perfectly Spangel-ly. All that sire stuff is fun but it's fanon, not canon. I like to play with it - in fact, I love to play with it - but I'm happy to read a more AtS season 5 canon version of the relationship too.

my favourite ever episodes of the show have to the three surrounding the birth of Connor.
I love those too! It's a slow build, but those three make one incredible whole!

Have never been able to understand why people don't like this season
Me neither. Holtz and Sahjhan are excellent, and the show hits it's groove and won't let up until it's over. Yes the Angel/Cordy stuff could have been done better, but I think it gets away with it becuase of the inherent tragedy.

it's perfectly Spangel-ly
Thanks! :) They're so fun to play with, but I still haven't read a fic where they ended up in bed and it didn't feel like fanon... (fanon is fun, but I'd have *loved* to have seen them actually kiss on sccreen! Although of course that way Joss would have had to break them up.)

Have never been able to understand why people don't like this season

::waves hand wildly:: Me! Me! I don't like it!! Heh. I find Holtz to be the most tedious villain in all of the Jossverse, but worse than that is that all of the main characters turn so grim and humorless and smug and self-righteous ("Champion" ugh) that I don't like any of them anymore. I don't start liking them again until the Jasmine arc. Maybe my reasons for disliking S3 stem from the fact that for me, plot is completely secondary to characterization, so even if the plotting of late S3 is tight (I've never thought it was, but I should watch it again before making any firm statements), it doesn't matter because I don't care about any of the characters anymore.

I knew there was someone! ;)

I think S3 of AtS is in many ways like S6 of Buffy - the characters' inherent faults makes them screw up. I *love* Holtz, because he's such a twisted bastard, but also because in him Angel's past truly catches up with him: Holtz inflicts on Angel *exactly* the same terrors that Angelus caused to Holtz, but moreso. By the end of the season Holtz has out-Angelused Angel. Holtz is a monster that Angelus created, and that Angel has to suffer because of. Is it justice? Or vengeance? And is Angel really that far from Angelus - or Holtz - in his murderous attack on Wesley? *happy sigh* Everything I love about AtS really gets going in that season. (I love the end of S1, and the Darla stuff in S2, but S3 is where everything starts falling apart! I'm a glutton for stuff being screwed up!)

I guess the difference to me is that the S6 Buffy characters are the opposite of self-righteous. They've fallen into a grey zone where they don't know what the right things to do are anymore, and they struggle throughout the season to be good people, with both successes and failures. The fact that the characters *have* faults is constantly addressed. The Angel S3 crew, on the other hand, are positive that they're on the side of the um, angels. From Angel who constantly refers to himself as a "champion", to Wes with his martyr complex, to Cordy with her non-specific glowy demon powers, they all spend the season being so sanctimonious. I don't get any pleasure from watching them fail, because they don't even realize they're failing, which means that they don't get any moments that I find redemptive. And of course, it doesn't help that I simply don't like the Connor storyline, and don't find any of it compelling.

As for Holtz, I get what the writers were doing with him, it just doesn't work for me. Holtz does manage to out-Angel Angel in being more broody and monotonous than Angel is, but that doesn't exactly endear him to me.:)

It's just not a problem for me - rather than sinking into greyness, their over-confidence causes their fall. I get why you don't like it, but they certainly get their come-uppence.

And Holtz... he's probably the most human villain on either show. But that's not necessarily an endearing trait! ;)

Although of course that way Joss would have had to break them up.)

Exactly - unless PC caught up with him and he didn't dare.

I don't think Frimfram's On the Rocks reads like fanon, though of course Angel's human in that.

I love 'On the Rocks' - my main problem with it (and most fics) is that they just sort of jump in bed with no warning... It's not that I think it's out of character really, but it just needs... dunno - something to set it up.

Actually Nothing Else Matters by

estepheia might be another exception...

Actually I think it's all about the character devevlopment. If it seems abrupt, I can't get on board with it. Does that make any sort of sense at all? *shakes head sadly*

Woe is me because Spangel is hot...

No, it makes perfect sense.

I think among Spangel 'shippers, there's a sort of unvoiced belief that Angelus and Spike were shagging like bunnies back in the bad old days and so would quite easily start doing it again if given half the chance (the only being intimate 'that one time' referring to Angel and Spike, not Spike and Angelus, of course).

However, it does still need some setting up, in spite of that since there's as much hate as there is love in their relationship. I dunno with On the Rocks. I have the impression that something had happened before Angel shanshu'ed that made it only too obvious that when they met up again, this is what they would do. However, I can't remember and would have to re-read it (no hardship at all, obviously).

there's a sort of unvoiced belief that Angelus and Spike were shagging like bunnies back in the bad old days and so would quite easily start doing it again if given half the chance
That's it I think - and although I have no problem with the first part of that, I just can't get the second part to work. It's like Buffy/Spike - after the mess of S6 they were incredibly wary of trying anything at all in S7. Extend the time frame and you have Spike/Angel. Also of course they're MEN and don't talk about their feelings.

since there's as much hate as there is love in their relationship
Their issues have issues! ;) And 'On The Rocks' just about gets away with it because of the human factor!

(And I love that icon... must do a purge. At some point...)

Extend the time frame and you have Spike/Angel. Also of course they're MEN and don't talk about their feelings.

Heh! True. It's possible the fact that they're men makes it more likely they'd start shagging again at very short notice without discussing it first (and they wouldn't discuss it afterwards either) but maybe not. Maybe it makes it less likely.

Actually - 'Vampire Winter' is probably the only fic that's made S/A seem believable and logical. Others have skirted on the edge, but yours worked exceptionally well!

Thank you. That's very kind of you.

I can't ever imagine it being easy or romantic between those two. Spike would rather die first.

Spike would rather die first.
There is that! :)

It's not really Spangel if Angel doesn't lapse into a thick Irish brogue and make Spike wear women's undercrackers, you know...

Or...

:) Glad to hear about your bunny.

Bwahahaha! I think I might also sidestep having Angel call Spike 'William' (or 'Willy' or 'Will'), thus rendering it so un-Spangel-like that no S/A shipper will ever want to read it! ;)

And my bunny is great! I've put it in a nice big cage with lots of food and drink - now I just hope it'll get a bit fatter. Currently I only have enough material for around 3 chapters...

I love season 3 of AtS. It's just so dark and twisted, and it rips my heart out every time. And there's so much foreshadowing of later seasons.

And personally I've always like Holtz. I've always though he worked as a character; especially as a mirror to the MoG/Scoobies. He started fighting the good fight (just as they did) but but let anger and hatred consume him, much like Angel did w/ Wes...

I'm not a slasher, but if there's any slash I can buy it's spangel. I've always thought they had a very brotherly relationship in canon, and it's fun to explore that.

And glad to hear the pretty spuffy isn't broken!

It's just so dark and twisted, and it rips my heart out every time.
::nods vigourously:: Just kills me ded!

there's so much foreshadowing of later seasons.
More set-up really, what with AtS being like one long story... if that makes sense?

I've always though he worked as a character
Same here! And although he becomes so despicable, it's hard not to feel for him when he says things like:

"When I put my son's body into the ground, I had to open the coffin, just to know that he really was in there. You also may discover - that a child's coffin, Mr. Wyndham-Pryce - it weighs nothing."

Plus the gravelly voice! :)

I'm not a slasher, but if there's any slash I can buy it's spangel.
Same here! And they're so pretty of course...

And I would never undo all the lovely Spuffy I built up - that really would be pointless. There's just so much S/A in there as well...

Squeeeeeeeeeee!

Also, I hate fics where Spike calls Angel "Sire," because he never once used that as a form of address in canon. Unless he whispers it during sex. Then I get all melty. *g*

he never once used that as a form of address in canon.
I am *such* a canon whore, I'd never be able to use it... although maybe as a whisper... hmmm.

See? You're evil!

For my own 2 cents I find it unusual for a fic that's very heavy on the vampire ritual business to do it well. There are those who can do it though so there are always pleasant surprises out there. I prefer them to be more like fighting buddies.

And have you seen these banners? Perhaps one might suit.

I find it unusual for a fic that's very heavy on the vampire ritual business to do it well.
Same here. Mostly I think because the show never went in for that, so it will inevitably feel out of place.

I prefer them to be more like fighting buddies.
Ditto. :)

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