I'll say it anyway. Winifred Burkle. Go.

[elisi]

Serendipity is a funny thing...

This whole Joss mess has come along exactly as I decided to finally delve back into the AtS 'verse and finish a WIP I abandoned years ago. (As it happens, it's the only fic I've ever properly planned out, so I found my extensive notes and actually know where the story is going!)

Now, before beginning to write I figured I should probably watch a few episodes, just to make sure I had their voices right in my head; so I watched A Hole in the World and Shells. And it's a fascinating exercise in doublethink (doubleview?).

Like, I love the 'verse. I love the characters. I love the story. I will always be grateful to Joss & co for creating this world.

But there is also the fact that (the very very special) Fred has SIX men standing around her bedside. All of them going to go out and try to SAVE her. (See subject line...)

As you know, the only other women (still standing) in the extended cast are Harmony (who is delightful, but mostly comic relief) and Eve, who is very powerful yet lost all agency the second she lost her boyfriend. ETA: Oh and there's Nina too. I like Nina. It's sad her role never extends beyond Being The Girlfriend.

The interesting thing is that the same week my girls decided to watch [the new movie version of] Les Mis.

And it was exactly the same thing:

- Men make things happen.

- Women have things happen to them.

This is why Buffy (and Wonder Woman, Rey, et al) are so special. They make things happen.

(Possibly more musings later, but this is a pretty well-trodden path, and I'm preaching to the choir...)


Also I'm realising this is probably a pretty awful way to try to get people to read my 'Spike & Angel & Illyria go on an epic quest to undo the power of W&H' story, as it's rather male-centric. AH WELL. It's not like LJ is teeming with people reading AtS fic anymore. Although I should probably point out that there's a good deal of Buffy & her Slayer army in it too...

For those who want to try (and the lovely handful which read the first few chapters back in 2013 when I started posting and might want to have another look), you can find the fic here (well, the first 7 chapters):

Divided Destiny

More chapters coming soon! :D (*crickets*)

Comments

[promethia_tenk]

Oh AtS . . . you had some greatness about you, but truly some of the most appalling treatment of women I've ever seen on tv.

[owlboy]

I remember nasty stuff about Joss's real-life treatment of Charisma Carpenter coming out when AtS was airing as well. I can't get into any of the dude's stuff anymore

[elisi]

Oh yeah, he got mad when she fell pregnant. :(

[promethia_tenk]

I remember nasty stuff about Joss's real-life treatment of Charisma Carpenter coming out when AtS was airing as well. I can't get into any of the dude's stuff anymore
Yeah, I heard some about that. Well after the fact, of course.

I don't have much to say on any of this. Dollhouse is my favorite thing he's ever done by a long shot, so I've no great investment in thinking of the guy as not horrible. I feel cruddy for the people who really loved Buffy, though.

[elisi]

And the women were GREAT, that's the main tragedy. Cordy, Darla, Lilah etc - brilliant, brilliant characters...

[orangerful]

Just because it is "male-centric" doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it. Now, if you posted "I am only writing male centric stories because men are better' THEN that would be wrong. You just connected with a story you wanted to tell and told it.

It's sad that so many writers do have to make that conscious effort and then have to make the effort to write female characters that take action as much as men. :\

[elisi]

Just because it is "male-centric" doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it.
That's it. Except when the wimmins keep dying, it makes you wonder...

It's sad that so many writers do have to make that conscious effort and then have to make the effort to write female characters that take action as much as men. :\
A lot of it is unconscious, which is an underlying problem. /obvious answer is obvious

[greensword]

When I think about how good the gender politics of a show are likely to be before watching it, I usually ask a set of questions something like:

- Is the main character a woman?
- Is the main relationship or one of the main relationships between two women?
- Do women make up more than 50% of the characters?

The answer to all of the questions doesn't have to be yes but if none of them are I tend to skip it. This is based in part on shows like Angel. I found Angel especially disappointing not because it was especially terrible - I mean yes, it was full of sexist tropes, but a lot of shows are, and it had good parts too - but because it spun out of Buffy which was its opposite in so many ways. To the extent that A Hole in the World has a BtVS equivalent it's probably Tara's death in Seeing Red and while it was fucked up in its own way (stop killing queer characters!) there was so much more to the characters' responses, they were so differentiated, like I still get chills thinking about how Dawn sat with Tara's body for hours because she didn't want her to be alone. And Willow sought vengeance and Buffy sought justice and Xander felt helpless and Anya put aside her own anger and alienation to come help them and I don't know, there's just a richness to it that Angel always seemed to lack.

I also found it telling that the Illyria plot twist was written to showcase Amy Acker's range. Like, maybe try writing a bigger range of emotions and behavior for your female characters rather than having them killed and their bodies possessed by entirely different characters.

Anyway, I'll stop using your post as an excuse to rag on Angel. ;)

[elisi]

When I think about how good the gender politics of a show are likely to be before watching it, I usually ask a set of questions something like:
Those are good questions.

but because it spun out of Buffy which was its opposite in so many ways
Yeah, this. And - like I say above in a comment - Angel had loads of great female characters. They just... kept dying. :(

they were so differentiated, like I still get chills thinking about how Dawn sat with Tara's body for hours because she didn't want her to be alone. And Willow sought vengeance and Buffy sought justice and Xander felt helpless and Anya put aside her own anger and alienation to come help them and I don't know, there's just a richness to it that Angel always seemed to lack.
Hmmm. I see what you're saying (and all your points about Seeing Red are absolutely spot-on), but the stories are different. Tara is an accidental victim, where Fred was chosen specifically because Knox practically worshipped her - at the heart of Fred's death lies objectification. And I'm not sure that's really dealt with? The line between Knox and Wesley is blurry. ETA: I love Wesley, and how utterly messed up he is. But Fred's death (having just watched it) is milked for all it's worth. Watch the beautiful, brave woman die, horribly and in pain. (As it happens, my iTunes shuffle has just come up with A Dazzling End...)

Like, maybe try writing a bigger range of emotions and behavior for your female characters rather than having them killed and their bodies possessed by entirely different characters.
*snerk* Nice one.

Anyway, I'll stop using your post as an excuse to rag on Angel. ;)
I love Angel to tiny itty bitty pieces (see picking up a stupidly long WIP), but I am well aware of its many flaws.

[jerusha]

Oh, god. Fred...

What killed me about that whole storyline is that they didn't just kill Fred, they literally destroyed her soul. FOR MAN PAIN. I loved Buffy and Angel, I really did, but S5 of Ats was just incredibly problematic in how it dealt with the female characters.

[elisi]

they literally destroyed her soul. FOR MAN PAIN.
Yeah, this. It's weird re-watching those episodes, because they are designed to make you cry, but now I just sit there shaking my head. 'This is problematic AS HELL! And unnecessary.' Which undermines the drama...

Here from the Sunnydale Herald

[punch_kicker15]

But there is also the fact that (the very very special) Fred has SIX men standing around her bedside. All of them going to go out and try to SAVE her.

Ha, I had exactly the same thought when I rewatched those episodes as background for a fic I wrote a few years ago (it was an AU with the focus on a couple of women saving Fred, so I can't say that I did much better by Fred than canon did, at least in that story.) I realized that's why Buffy (the show) resonates so much more with me than Angel (the show).

Re: Here from the Sunnydale Herald

[elisi]

SO MANY MEN! (Although at least one is black and one is green...) I still love them all, but it makes you wonder.

[debris4spike]

Great thoughts.

I really must get back to a couple of WIPs I have (from BtVS) ... so hopefully this will help inspire me.

[elisi]

Great thoughts.
Thank you.

I really must get back to a couple of WIPs I have (from BtVS) ... so hopefully this will help inspire me.
Good luck! It's 50% will power, 50% a must that decides to co-operate...

[sea_thoughts]

I mean, you do have a point about Les Mis but a lot of Fantine's problems come from her striving to look after Cosette without actually letting people know about Cosette's existence. She sells all her hair and her teeth for her daughter and then her body. It's only when she's completely broken down physically that Valjean appears and he can't do much more than make her comfortable in her final days.

Eponine also spends much of her story working hard and striving (even if most of it is to make Marius notice her). Even Cosette (in the book) tries to find out more about the world but she's constrained the most by her upbringing.

[elisi]

but a lot of Fantine's problems come from her striving to look after Cosette without actually letting people know about Cosette's existence.
Because women were punished for having children outside wedlock. And men could do as they pleased. Valjean doesn't have a fun life, but he is never brought as low as poor Fantine. (Why did he get a Bishop, and a 2nd chance, and Fantine got... a mercy death?)

It's very much of its time, so I'm not ragging on it, more pointing out how little has changed. :(

[kathyh]

Wow! Divided Destiny. That takes me back :)

I can't say I'm very surprised by "the Joss mess". I still love BtVS and AtS but I went off his work in a very big way with Dollhouse which I found very disturbing, but probably not in the ways that he meant me to. Possibly if he hadn't been quite so voluble about his feminist credentials people wouldn't be quite so down on him now, but the hypocrisy leaves a nasty taste.

[elisi]

Wow! Divided Destiny. That takes me back :)
I hoped it might... *sidles up next to you, smiling sweetly* Sooooo, how do you feel about getting back into the beta-game?

I still love BtVS and AtS but I went off his work in a very big way with Dollhouse which I found very disturbing, but probably not in the ways that he meant me to.
Yeah, never watched that, the concept on its own is deeply offputting. And of course there are the comics. Ugh.

Possibly if he hadn't been quite so voluble about his feminist credentials people wouldn't be quite so down on him now, but the hypocrisy leaves a nasty taste.
This. Especially given how a lot of his work really wasn't treating women well, at all.

[double_dutchess]

Well, I want to read it!

[elisi]

Hurrah, a reader! :D

*puts a flower garland around your neck and showers you with lavish attention*

(Link above to the first seven chapters!)

[garnigal.livejournal.com]

I certainly don't disagree that female characters are often happened to, and in the best cases can be interesting in spite of that. Even Buffy had Slayerhood thrust upon her, rather than taking up the mantle by choice. That said, Buffy the Vampire Slayer was Buffy's show, so she'd damn well better be a driving reason for action. Angel was about Angel, with Fred as a character in orbit around him as the driving force. I'm certainly not saying the character wasn't treated poorly, and I'm not saying that a lot of shows are problematic once you step away from the immediate "hell yeah" of the moment, but subordinate characters must remain subordinate... otherwise they get a spin off. :)

I think the difference between being a fully rounded character in someone else's show versus being the focus of the show is why so many fan boys complain that we have Buffy, and Faith, and Veronica Mars and etc etc etc, why do we need Ghostbusters and Wonder Woman too? And it's because so many of the great female characters that we are inspired by are still driven by a male force.

That got weird and rambly... I'm not sure if there's any nuggets worth discussing in there.

[elisi]

Well, I have a rambling icon. :)

I think my point is, that the women's stories are so very often subservient to those of men. They get killed - or hurt - in order to provoke a reaction in the male characters. (Which Fred's death is a particular good example of.)

As a contrast, take Spike, or Wesley. Supporting characters, but with arcs and stories of their own, but which support the main character.

Take Wesley stealing Connor - it devastates Angel, but it's Wesley taking action. And Connor, in turn, takes action against Angel, later.

Obviously it's a hazy area, nothing is white or black, but when you have six men and one woman, the balance is off.

I love the show, I love the characters, but goodness, the women have a hard time of it.

[liliaeth]

I don't know if you watch Lucifer, but if you want to watch a show where the female characters have an active role in the plot, rather than just having things happen to them, that's one of the best current examples of such a show.

Well that and Wynona Earp, though imo Lucifer is better written.

From Chloe Decker, who is the one pulling Lucifer into her investigations, to Mazikeen, and Linda who aren't just there to call Lucifer out on his crap, but they get things done in their own way.

Even Chloe's daughter Trixie gets her own plots, and isn't there just to be cute, even though she gets a lot of that as well. And that's not even starting on Charlotte and Ella who join the cast in s2.

The fun part is that all these characters have a diverse function, role and personality on the show. None of them are locked in one role that's all they're supposed to be.

In fact, Lucifer is in many ways comparable to the best parts of Buffy. And though Lucifer is clearly the main character, the cast surrounding him is so strong, and is given their own storylines, to the point that you're not stuck in his pov, making the world far better developed than it might be otherwise.

[elisi]

Thank you, I will keep that in mind! I have heard many good things, so I might try to look it up. (If I can find the time...)

Many female characters is definitely a top selling point!