This post is COMPLETELY tongue-in-cheek!

[elisi]

OK, so Promethia and I stared arguing over which episodes were worst/the maddest - the S4 finale or EoT. Now, I need to explain that this is not some kind of RTD-bashing excuse. I love those episodes like pancakes. I watched TSE six times when it first aired. I watch EoT through a haze of 'Mmmmm Doctor/Master... Wait, was there something else happening?' Seriously - give me crack, I will eat it up with a spoon.

HOWEVER. EoT - IMHO - makes NO SENSE plot wise. Cut & pasted from another post:

Stuff happens just because it happens. I mean, what's the deal with the Doctor's mother talking to Wilf? How does she do it? WHY? How do the Naismith's know about the Master returning? Why is Wilf the only one who can remember the dreams? Why does Rassilon narrate, and from what point in his personal timeline does he do so? WHO gave the Ood the gift to see through time? I just... It's not MD levels of bad (the continuity is fine), it's just a lot of random stuff tied together. *shakes head and tells self to focus on the Doctor/Master* (Also the EPIC EPIC ANGST is sort of undercut by the fact that... he's not really DYING, y'know? He's going to be FINE. It's such a storm in a teacup. But then Ten always ate up ALL his drama-flakes.) [...] If actual angels had appeared at that point and helped the Doctor on his final STRUGGLING walk I wouldn't have been the least surprised. It's so OTT that it's almost collapsing from lack of oxygen.

The best explanation is actually this one, by 10littlebullets:

'I found that EoT makes perfect sense if you think of the whole thing as Ten's regeneration-sickness-induced fever dream: somewhere, somewhen, he tripped over a brick and hit his head and was so disappointed at his anticlimactic regeneration that he dreamed of an epic universe-imperilling death sequence where he is the most important person in the universe, his angst is so tragic and full of pathos look at all the burdens on his poor shoulders, he gets final confirmation that he was right to blow up the Time Lords, the Master is staring into his eyes and wibbling about their lost childhood on Gallifrey, and the whole thing works by dream logic.'

Again, I mock BECAUSE I LOVE. Honestly, mostly I just want to hug EoT. However, it doesn't make sense. Promethia, though, thinks that TSE/JE is worse in the sense making department:

'Whereas Ten siphoning off his regeneration energy into his amputated hand, which then calls out to Donna backwards through time to make her touch it, thus producing a human/Time Lord clone which can be left in a parallel universe with the slightly clingy girlfriend is the epitome of sense making, yes you are right. ;)'

Personally I can easily hand-wave all that stuff because of 'These things happen on a Hellmouth'. (You know what I mean.) Timelords can do all kinds of mad things. It's like magic. Those episodes might be crammed full of more STUFF than should be possible, but at least it mostly makes sense... Comparatively.

ETA: Promethia wishes to clarify her position: 'My argument was really that TSE/JE are worse episodes in general, of which the blatant trampling on sense is only a part.'


So, gentle flist, what is your opinion? Again, this is NOT an invitation to say nasty things about RTD. I luff him very much. He just writes MAD stuff (which is one reason I luff him - logic is for losers. *g*)

[Poll #1845878]

(Although if you want something more serious, then I posted the final chapter of My Immortal 2 yesterday.)

Comments

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Rationally, they're both utterly bonkers. Emotionally, EoT works far better for me than TSE/JE. Probably exactly because it goes so far over the top. It leaves any pretense of being anything but emotional porn in the first act and then just keeps on going down the same road.

And I like 10littlebullets' explanation.

[elisi]

Emotionally, EoT works far better for me than TSE/JE. Probably exactly because it goes so far over the top.
This is also Promethia's argument, and I agree with that. However logically it makes less sense. (Going with your wallpapering metaphor, then RTD doesn't even TRY in EoT, which has its own merits. *g*)

And I like [info]10littlebullets' explanation.
Good, isn't it? Still makes me giggle. :)

[promethia_tenk]

This was basically my argument. EoT isn't even trying to make sense and contains very many excellent scenes, so I have no problem in ignoring/enjoying the ridiculous and savoring all the Wilf and Doctor goodness.

Where TSE/JE, Rusty is wallpapering like a lunatic *and* trying to tick all his cameo boxes and . . .

[promethia_tenk]

*checks poll* YES, I'M WINNING!

; )

Though I would like to clarify that my argument was really that TSE/JE are worse episodes in general, of which the blatant trampling on sense is only a part.

[elisi]

Good for you! :)

And I shall amend the post to more correctly reflect your position.

[platypus]

I thought TEOT Part One had a lot of good setup, but none of it ended up getting any follow-through or making any sense. Sometimes RTD just throws stuff at the wall because it sounds good (like he liked the "one of them will die!" tagline for S4 but then couldn't really DO it, or the way he had Rose/Handy in his mind as an endgame forever but then had to rush into it because he ran out of time to develop them properly). I love a lot of his work, but I think his best finale was Parting of the Ways.

I do have a lot more sympathy for the incoherence when I read The Writer's Tale; this is not a man unaware of his faults. But I find TEOT extra frustrating because there was so much good stuff there, if only some use were made of it.

[elisi]

I love a lot of his work, but I think his best finale was Parting of the Ways.
*nods a lot* S1 was in many ways perfect. Also agreed very much on everything thing else you say - he writes himself into corners...

I do have a lot more sympathy for the incoherence when I read The Writer's Tale; this is not a man unaware of his faults.
I love that book to DISTRACTION! Even as it's also given me a much better insight into WHY he sometimes goes wrong.

But I find TEOT extra frustrating because there was so much good stuff there, if only some use were made of it.
My main problem is the stuff that is completely unsupported. Like the Ood magically receiving the ability to see through time. This is never explained, and it irks me like mad. (If you're operating in an atheist universe, then stick to your own rules. I'm brilliant at fanwanking, but a lot of EoT stumps me. HOWEVER Doctor/Master is delightful enough for me to not care about the rest. *g*)

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

I love all of it.

I mean, I'm watching DOCTOR WHO. Even as a kid, reality and sense-making was not the theme. So...I loves it all. And the Doctor/Master thing...guh, sorry, there was plot during that?!

[elisi]

This is why it's so hard to discuss - because ye gods, I DO love all of it. Heck, where would the show BE without crack? (Also Doctor/Master is epically amazing. *draws hearts*)

HOWEVER, I think EoT makes less sense than TSE/JE. Speaking objectively.

[honeynoir.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I want to say that the Time Lords' plan makes more sense than Davros's Reality Bomb... but TSE/JE concludes the Arc of Ten's Hand... and I need coffee.

[elisi]

Here's Ianto with some coffee. *pets*

(The Time Lords plan is pretty good, no problems with that. It's all the stuff with Wilf & the Doctor's mother that throws me.)

[skipthedemon.livejournal.com]

You have a point, about the Time Lord's plan. It's a gigantic dick move for the rest of the universe, but if all you care about is the continued existence of your people, it makes sense.

[skipthedemon.livejournal.com]

I think they are both equally not sense making. But EoT has some better emotional beats, and moments of good acting.

[elisi]

Well I still think EoT makes less sense. But it's also - as you point out - better at hitting the right emotions. So I guess it's a draw. *g*

[10littlebullets.livejournal.com]

My vote's in for EoT, which is just epic in its utter failure to make a lick of sense. With TSE/JE, at least RTD was trying to handwave it all into making sense. But please note that I may not be entirely impartial here, since somehow I have ended up watching EoT like six or seven times all the way through, usually in a group after somebody suggests "Let's get really drunk and watch the most ridiculous Doctor Who crack we can think of and throw popcorn at the screen," whereas I think TSE/JE was just the once. Or maybe twice.

TSE/JE is mostly baffling because s4, when you think of it, is actually pretty heavy on the thematic/arc stuff--Ten's bizarre hypocritical pacifism and Galifrey angst, all those plots with terraforming gone horribly wrong, timelines twisting and things going missing and people turning up where they shouldn't be. And then the finale has nothing to do with any of it. It's like RTD spends months building up the anticipation for the World Series and then hands you the all-star game instead.

...come to think of it, it's almost as though RTD was building up to something like End of Time for the series 4 finale. Hmmmm.

[elisi]

My vote's in for EoT, which is just epic in its utter failure to make a lick of sense. With TSE/JE, at least RTD was trying to handwave it all into making sense.
I'm right there with you. Even down to having watched EoT more often. Anyway, re. TSE:

It is the most magnificent, bollocking mental, bloody wonderful extravaganza ever seen on screen. That is a fact. It's like having chocolate, and whisky, and steak, and cigarettes, while making love to a porn star on a luxury yacht in outer space. Dear God, it's brilliant.

RTD, The Writers Tale, p 397

QED. :)

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

The End of Time is the one where the Master respawns from a greenish ring and comes to Earth to eat humans and hamburgers with disturbing relish, yes? Because that's the one I meant to vote for.

[elisi]

That's the one! :D

[calapine.livejournal.com]

I loved TSE, it's a fantastic piece of style over substance and I didn't care a jot cause it was AMAZING STYLE. And then it all went terribly wrong in JE. EOT's got the Doctor/Master awesome, which I ignore everything else for because it is delicious, but *nothing* in it really bothers to make any sense at all.

So EOT for me.

[elisi]

You make excellent points.

(Also saw your rant meme. V. appropriate choices. (I love RTD era Who, but I'm not blind to its MASSIVE faults. I was just lucky to not know what DW was *supposed* be when I watched it, or I'd probably have been more annoyed at the time.)

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

EoT Part 1 was the worst load of drivel I have ever watched in the name of Doctor Who. And Part 2 achieved what I would have believed to be impossible - to make me shout at Tennant, "Just DIE already!"

[elisi]

Yeah my brain just bypasses stuff like mad and goes DOCTOR/MASTER!!!! And there's mindmelding and talk about their childhood on Gallifrey and the rest could be an intern reading the phone book, I wouldn't care. Oh and the scene with the Doctor & Wilf in the cafe is BEAUTIFUL too. And... yeah. I'm easy. ;)

As for shouting at the sreen, then the whole country was probably going 'GET ON WITH IT!' (a la Monty Python and the Holy Grail), and actually it worked quite well, because I was VERY sad to see him go, but OTOH by the end I just wanted to put him out of his misery, y'know? Like a pet in pain.

[masakochan.livejournal.com]

For what it's worth I really do enjoy 'TSE-JE' up through the part where RTD went "ALL THE COMPANIONS! :D" and had them fly the Earth home. (And introducing 10.2 :D) But then it just went to shit, and I can't watch the ending without get angry and sad.

EoT OTOH I don't even know if I really enjoyed it (despite the Master (who continues to be a delightful bastard) because I was just tired of Ten, and wanted to marathon through Series 5 to get Ten's voice out of my head whenever I was reading 11 fic. (aside from getting back to my favorite Space Giraffe-Whale <3)

[elisi]

For what it's worth I really do enjoy 'TSE-JE' up through the part where RTD went "ALL THE COMPANIONS! :D" and had them fly the Earth home. (And introducing 10.2 :D) But then it just went to shit, and I can't watch the ending without get angry and sad.
Skip the ending, enjoy the rest! :)

EoT OTOH I don't even know if I really enjoyed it (despite the Master (who continues to be a delightful bastard) because I was just tired of Ten, and wanted to marathon through Series 5 to get Ten's voice out of my head whenever I was reading 11 fic.
I think watching in Real Time makes a difference...

(aside from getting back to my favorite Space Giraffe-Whale <3)
*gigglesnort* Oh that's a beautiful description!

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

I love them both for the OTT scenery-chewing. I like Ten best when he's emotionally battered; I'm a bad, bad fangirl.

I can kinda, almost fanwank JE (and I love the Rose/10.5 ending) but nothing but the "fever dream" explanation has ever made made EoT really make sense. SO I ticked the JE box. But I'm a little disappointed that you totally failed to discuss season 3's tinkerbell-jebus closer. No Sense Was Had! Not by anyone! Well, maybe Martha, but it's a stretch.

[elisi]

Ooooooh the scenery chewing! ♥ It's a miracle that there's anything left!

And as for S3, then I shall quote the great man himself:

"I just channel-hopped and caught The Sound of Drums. Am I on drugs when I write these things?"

However, Promethia has never kicked off about S3 the way she does about JE, so it didn't feature in our argument... Also I LOVE Tinkerbell!Doctor and - despite everything being MAD, there's method in the madness. The Master's plan makes sense, as does the Doctor's, and it all builds on what came before. *draws hearts around S3*

[betawho.livejournal.com]

I'd say the End of Time makes less actual sense, simply because so many things in the story directly contradict other things in the same story.

And it seems like a lot of stuff is just thrown in because it will "look cool." While leaving the audience thinking WTF?

The Master Race is a good example of that.