Fannish thoughts.

[elisi]

Reading 'Mark Watches Buffy' has made me think. Actually, it was this comment by beer_good_foamy to my previous post which really kick-started things:

I'm completely hooked on Mark Watches Buffy. It's so, well, cute how he thinks he has a rough idea of where the show is going from here - and he hasn't even seen Spike and Dru, he has no idea who Giles is, he has no clue about where Willow is going, he thinks Angelus is something that happened in the past... I'm not sure if it's fannishness or sadism that's making me read these reviews, poor kid's in for a world of hurt. :D

Because Mark just flails and CAPSLOCKS and keels over every time the show does something unexpected. He's only just finished 'School Hard' (money quote: HOW IS ALL OF THIS HAPPENING IN THE THIRD EPISODE?) and knowing all the twists and turns that are coming does make the reviews sort of impossible to resist - it'll be ridiculously entertaining watching him have all his expectations demolished.

But here's the thing: He's not exactly a novice when it comes to TV. The second he saw Spike & Angel interact he knew that there must be a gazillion slash fics out there. He's just not used to how BtVS operates... Which made me wonder about how I see the world (as in - TV shows), and how much I've been shaped by BtVS. I've always said that it taught me everything, which is true, but now I'm wondering what it's like for people whose formative fannish experience wasn't Buffy? Who aren't always waiting for the other shoe to drop (people are happy = HORRIBLE THINGS are about to happen); who aren't used to EVERYTHING being subverted; who aren't familiar with the fact that ANYONE could die (and on the flipside - ANYONE could come back, if necessary)...

I'm not entirely sure if this means that I'm suffering from Post-Traumatic Joss Syndrome or whether I've somehow become immune to Righteous ['You Can't DO That!'] Anger/Surprise. (I can get angry with writers, but only if the writing is bad. If they want to end the show with 'Rock Fall, Everyone Dies', then - as long as that's an ending that makes sense - I'll not complain.)

Does any of this make sense? I feel like I've got the hang of something, but I'm terrible at formulating it. I think... it's the idea that a show has to keep to a formula? And then people get upset if it doesn't. It's the constant subversion and the radical changes of Buffy that makes it so different, I guess. Nothing is static, and nothing set in stone. And that is my attitude to anything I watch. For someone to be so SURPRISED at this really just throws me...

Comments

[sahiya.livejournal.com]

I have a theory that right around the same time in the late-90s, there were two shows on TV that completely changed the way good television is done: one of them was Buffy and the other was The West Wing (it's possible that if I were an X-Files fan, I would throw that in, too). In terms of long-term arcs, in terms of the quality of the writing, in terms of characterization, in terms of what you could do on a TV show, I think everything was different after those shows aired. I have a hard time watching TV from earlier than that, because a lot of it just seems so bad to me - there's no follow-through, very little character growth, and never much threat of anything actually changing.

But yeah. Every time one of my characters is happy, I go, "Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!" This is not as true of Doctor Who under Moffat (though it was under RTD), but it is certainly true of other shows I watch (Downton Abbey in particular). TV writers feel the need to constantly ratchet up the tension, and as sad as it is to say, happy characters are really just kinda . . . boring. Conflict drives plot.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

one of them was Buffy and the other was The West Wing

Yessss. I'd add The Sopranos as well.

There have been a lot of shows that have made leaps and bounds in what's possible to do on TV - M*A*S*H, Hill Street Blues, Twin Peaks, X-Files, to name just a couple that are obviously in the background of a lot of shows today - but something happened in the late 90s. suddenly you had TV shows that not only had arcs, but also told stories on multiple levels, with clear voices of their own; there may have been dozens of writers in every season, but they still had a common authorial voice, and deliberately played against what the audience expected. Buffy was a horror movie for teens, so let's subvert what one expects of that plot. Tony Soprano was the hero of the show, so let's show him to be an absolute psychopath who manipulates everyone including the audience. Etc. The surprise, the twist, isn't just a gimmick but the entire premise of the show: to explore ideas - both those of the authors, and those of the audience.

[elisi]

In terms of long-term arcs, in terms of the quality of the writing, in terms of characterization, in terms of what you could do on a TV show, I think everything was different after those shows aired. I have a hard time watching TV from earlier than that, because a lot of it just seems so bad to me - there's no follow-through, very little character growth, and never much threat of anything actually changing.
*nods* The thing is, that surely these things can't be completely NEW to him? *is puzzled*

But yeah. Every time one of my characters is happy, I go, "Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!"
Ooooh yes. If they're happy, I assume the crash position. If one of the main hero gains a love interest, that person get an automatic target on their chest, because the best way to hurt the hero is through those (s)he loves...

This is not as true of Doctor Who under Moffat (though it was under RTD)
RTD is SO MUCH LIKE JOSS, it's uncanny, whereas Moffat keep surprising me by *not* subverting things the way I'm used to. Take Rusty's SJA episodes: 'The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith' and 'Death of the Doctor'. Neither of those episodes do what they claim to. Sarah Jane doesn't get married. The Doctor doesn't die. But 'The Wedding of River Song' is about her wedding. It the how and why that gets subverted, not the thing in itself. <3

TV writers feel the need to constantly ratchet up the tension, and as sad as it is to say, happy characters are really just kinda . . . boring. Conflict drives plot.
Which is why I don't watch a lot of TV.

[hello-spikey.livejournal.com]

Heh. I only came into Buffy late in life - what, four years ago now? BUT, I must say it didn't really... seem all that different from the rest of TV. I dunno, maybe I'm just jaded and shit. But I did love it, even as I cringed through bits.

This "Mark watches" thing makes me SOOOOOOOOO desperate to get my sister to finally give in and watch Buffy. I mean, she adores vampires - she watched the entire run of "Dark Shadows"! The ENTIRE RUN. On DVD. All majillion seasons. But she keeps saying that Buffy "Looks dumb". I gave her my complete series DVDS and she keeps refusing to watch!!! I'd show her this blog, but it's all spoilery and...

and okay, this is just my own personal rant, not a comment. SORRY!

[elisi]

BUT, I must say it didn't really... seem all that different from the rest of TV. I dunno, maybe I'm just jaded and shit.
This is what so surprises me. How can anyone be that unsuspecting?

And good luck with your sister. I'm presuming you've told her that they study Buffy at several universities? Oh, and here's a lovely quote:

I think it’s always important for academics to study popular culture, even if the thing they are studying is idiotic. If it’s successful or made a dent in culture, then it is worthy of study to find out why. ‘Buffy,’ on the other hand is, I hope, not idiotic. We think very carefully about what we’re trying to say emotionally, politically, and even philosophically while we’re writing it. The process of breaking a story involves the writers and myself, so a lot of different influences, prejudices, and ideas get rolled up into it. So it really is, apart from being a big pop culture phenom, something that is deeply layered textually episode by episode.
Joss Whedon

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

Make her watch "Fool for Love". That's how my daughter convinced me. From thinking it was really a stupid idea (I hated the game faces and I wanted vampires who were complex - thought they were all just evil), that episode showed me that the show had good visuals, complex plots, interesting characters, and was well worth trying.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Wooo! I inspired thinky thoughts! \o/

From what I've read of his other reviews, I think Mark is slightly more aware of possible future twists than he lets on - even if he's as unspoiled as he says, he should know that there will be major twists. He's a Moffatt fanboy too, after all. But I'm not sure he's prepared for the kind of twists; what I love about BtVS is the way the subversions actually become part of the story, especially in s2. The twists in BtVS go deep into the story, it's not just "Surprise! It turns out he was DEAD ALL ALONG!" Once he figures out how BtVS works - finds the formula - I think he'll be more at home; right now, he seems to think "Prophecy Girl" was a typical twist.

Then again, my first "OMG WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON" show was Twin Peaks. Part of me still can't get over how normal BtVS is. :P

[elisi]

Wooo! I inspired thinky thoughts! \o/
That's because you're a clever and awesome person.

From what I've read of his other reviews, I think Mark is slightly more aware of possible future twists than he lets on - even if he's as unspoiled as he says, he should know that there will be major twists.
Well he has no illusions when it comes to Joss - he knows that Joss loves nothing more than to rip people's hearts out and laughing. So there is that.

But I'm not sure he's prepared for the kind of twists; what I love about BtVS is the way the subversions actually become part of the story, especially in s2. The twists in BtVS go deep into the story, it's not just "Surprise! It turns out he was DEAD ALL ALONG!"
That's a very good point.

Once he figures out how BtVS works - finds the formula - I think he'll be more at home; right now, he seems to think "Prophecy Girl" was a typical twist.
He needs to learn to understand what 'jossing' really means. *g*

Then again, my first "OMG WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON" show was Twin Peaks. Part of me still can't get over how normal BtVS is. :P
I've never seen that, but I've felt the waves?

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Once he figures out how BtVS works - finds the formula - I think he'll be more at home

Bear in mind that he's already written 'Mark Watches Firefly' and 'Mark Watches Serenity', so it's not like he isn't familiar with Joss's work already. Or his tendency to kill people.

I suspect part of it might be that BtVS in its early days was pretty formulaic - it's a teen drama that spoofs classic horror movie tropes - and the real twists didn't start up until, well, just about the point that he's getting to now in his reviews.

[gillo]

I think he thinks he's ready for the twists, and S1 has let him think he is, but School Hard is such a game-changing episode that his reaction makes sense to me.

I find it odd that he is seeing so much stuff for the first time, including what he is reading, but he does say in other places that he was brought up in a very strict Religious Right household and may not have had access to much TV when growing up. I don't think he's all that old.

Whatever, I'm enjoying what he writes and the conspiracy of delight in the comments. And it's not so very far-fetched really - I was reading the "Cultural Learnings Catch-up" on Buffy, and Myles had very similar reactions, even though he admitted he'd been spoiled for some things.

[jerusha]

Oh, man. Yes. I cut my teeth on X-Files and BtVS, and dude. Those shows, but particularly Buffy and Angel, taught me that TV will break my heart over and over again. And then, after my heart is broken, TV will rip it out of my chest and stomp it into the ground.

Which is why I'm constantly surprised when shows don't break my heart. I love Leverage for example, not least because the show's creator has promised me a happy ending and no cliffhangers over and over again, and I've come to believe him. But unless a creator/writer offers me a contract signed in blood, I'm going to assume that they will make me cry.

[elisi]

Which is why I'm constantly surprised when shows don't break my heart.
Ooooh yes, THIS. This is the reason Moffat Doctor Who is my favourite thing EVER. He promises happy endings and then he gives them to us. It's like MAGIC. The surprises lie in the HOW, not in a turnaround at the last minute where Rocks Fall And Everyone Dies. Not that it can't be sad - and sometimes it is - but its purpose isn't to kick you and then laugh as you can't breathe. Or to just be BLEAK AS HELL! (That's to RTD for Torchwood: Children of Earth. Brilliant, yet horrible.)

(Just realised terrible typos, hence editing. *facepalm*)

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Buffy absolutely shaped how I watch tv. It's why I don't watch much of it, frankly- I've been spoiled and I will not settle. I expect character growth, intelligent dialogue, and complex story telling. I have a v hard time relating to consumers of media who don't have these expectations, and feel satisfied with sit-coms and reality tv.

[elisi]

You and me both. I feel like such a snob... My husband - who is generally Mr Highbrow Incarnate - can watch endless episodes of CSI, f.ex., and I just find myself hopelessly frustrated because it's the same plot every week. Except sometimes there's a finale and one of the main characters (whose names I can never remember, except for Horatio Cane) gets kidnapped or something.

I need more. (Layers and metaphors and character development and snappy dialogue and a complex 'verse etc. etc.)

[bobthemole.livejournal.com]

My formative fannish experience was The X-Files, and it's taught me never to assume the writer know what they're doing.

Now whenever I see a show that answers ALL it's questions, I hug it tight.

[elisi]

LOL.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

I have only seen one episode of Buffy, but watching Firefly was definitely a new experience for me. The idea that beloved main characters who really had no reason to die could suddenly be killed was not something I was used to--at the time I watched it, I had seen comparatively little adult/serious television, and so I was used to the writers following expectations and trying to give the audience what it wanted.

[elisi]

See this is clearly where I am warped, because I expect stuff like that to happen. The more horrible, the less I want it to - the more likely it is, from my POV. So when things turn out less horrible than expected I am v. grateful. (RTD is so much like Joss...)

[aerintine.livejournal.com]

I think my Jossian focus has made it so I cannot watch TV correctly anymore. Take Moffat's Who, for example. I really think that the reason I was so often mistaken about how the story would go is I kept expecting Moffat to twist the rug out from under me - I read into lines of dialogue and images way more than was necessary. As I rewatch, I see how completely straightforward the plot is. He tells us what is going to happen and then it happens. The details twist and turn a bit, but they don't change anything. I find this confusing and perplexing. Because, see, I'm supposed to be told this will happen, and instead that happens and also everyone dies and also haha never trust anything you silly, silly thing. Joss trained me well. Unlearning that training is hard.

So Mark has not endured the Joss Whedon Masterclass on screwing with us proper. Oh, how he shall learn. ;)

[elisi]

I find this confusing and perplexing. Because, see, I'm supposed to be told this will happen, and instead that happens and also everyone dies and also haha never trust anything you silly, silly thing. Joss trained me well. Unlearning that training is hard.
THIS! I mean, I can easily see what's going to happen, the metaphors are beautiful and strong. I saw Amy's wedding dress at the end of The Eleventh Hour, and everything said 'So, obviously, the season will end with Amy and Rory's wedding'. Except... that's not how it works, I've learned that over the course of many years and a broken heart. Except with Moffat IT DOES! I still have to sort of pinch myself that a story I love is unfolding the way I want it to, and that he's not sitting somewhere, cackling, waiting for JUST THE RIGHT MOMENT to destroy EVERYTHING. But he isn't. He really isn't. He likes happy endings. He likes making his characters happy. I just. WHAT IS THIS? IT MUST BE WITCHCRAFT! *points to icon*

So Mark has not endured the Joss Whedon Masterclass on screwing with us proper. Oh, how he shall learn. ;)
Oh he will. Damn, I can't wait for Surprise/Innocence. *is evil*

[dweomeroflight.livejournal.com]

I friended you off your Who meta. I hope this was OK but I can delete you if you would prefer :)

I have never watched Buffy before- or at least- if I did it was all in my childhood in no particular order and my memory fails me. I've been wondering for awhile now if I should watch it but I am wary of serial tv shows after torturing myself watching Spooks, where the ending was so nihilistic for no real reason I wanted to cut a bitch. But then from what you say Buffy sounds all metaphorical and symbolic and damn I love that. *Is confused*

[elisi]

I friended you off your Who meta. I hope this was OK but I can delete you if you would prefer :)
Oh no - the more the merrier! I love new friends! <3

But then from what you say Buffy sounds all metaphorical and symbolic and damn I love that. *Is confused*
Buffy is AWESOME! Everything I know about meta I learned from Buffy. Layers, symbolism, character arcs, foreshadowing, metaphors, continuity... I got it all from Buffy. It was the show that taught me to watch TV, if that makes sense. Yes, it pulls the rug out under stuff, yes it completely and utterly breaks people's hearts, but it feels earned. And - and this is the important bit - there are always consequences. No one stays the same. Every character grows and changes and learns and gets hurt and gets better and screws up and has to pick themselves up again and learn to live with having screwed up massively. *flaily hands* (I am not capable of being objective about this show, since it's such a part of me.) If you can cope with being stabbed in the back now and again for the sake of REALLY GOOD STORYTELLING, then give Buffy a chance.

[shapinglight]

I'm just a bit worried that when he gets to Seeing Red he'll start hating Spike. :(

Otherwise, reading what he says is great fun.

[elisi]

We'll see. It's a worry, but he seems fairly sensible underneath all the flail. I think he might hate the IDEA and the EXECUTION of the AR, but possibly not Spike himself. Time will tell, I guess.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

While Buffy admittedly surprised me at times - Smashed - actually, that surprised me. I couldn't believe they did that.

But...it did not change or alter how I viewed tv. It may have changed how I interacted with people regarding tv - in that via Buffy I discovered fandom and posted meta. Never did that before. And we can blame Smashed in S6 for that. Also - the internet for making fandom accessible.

I've watched soap operas most of my life. Watching one right now actually. And at the end of the day, that's what Buffy was a supernatural soap opera, along much the same lines as Dark Shadows.
Except better written. It was and is a serial disguised as a monster of the week episodic series to trick the network into optioning it. Which is why people got shocked - because it started out as "episodic monster of the week" - with clear rules and boundaries. Then morphed into a soap opera, where rules where thrown out the window and anyone could die or become evil or good at any time. People who were used to the monster of the week format, got thrown for a loop. That's Mark Watches - he's used to the monster of the week formula, it has not occurred to him yet that Buffy actually has more in common with Dark Shadows and daytime serials than the monster of the week Scooby Doo or
X-Files even. But he doesn't know that yet.

How he reacts...depends on how much he likes serials. A lot of people left Buffy by S6, because the serial/no rules format drove them nuts.
Not everyone likes soap operas. But those of us weaned on them, formed on them...love them to pieces. If Angel hadn't turned into Angelus in S2, I doubt I would have stuck with the series. I was mildly entertained up until that point. Episodic of the week tends to be pretty predictable, the writing safe. Serials? Anything goes.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

If Angel hadn't turned into Angelus in S2

Ditto.

[spikesdeb.livejournal.com]

*points* What you said. I agree with everything. And I do think that Joss has defined the way I look at EVERYTHING. E V E R Y . T H I N G. I take nothing at face value; you tell me something, I listen, I take it in, but I don't absorb it until I'm sure I know where it's heading. Joss did that to me. I've been away from online for a while so hadn't heard of 'Mark', but I'll have to check it out now - it's too tempting as you say. Knowing that by the end he will have been up and down and crushed and elated so many damn times - delicious!

[elisi]

Reading Mark is like... Oh, like seeing everything again for the first time. ♥

And Joss - yeah, he makes people cautious. (Which is what's so amazing about Steven Moffat - because I trust Moffat. I've never trusted a storyteller before, and it's REALLY REALLY WEIRD, but also kinda magical? /tired and rambly, but happy)

[promethia_tenk]

Hmmmmm, your ponderings intrigue me.

I'm not sure if I have one formative tv experience quite in the way you do, but I've got a number of shows I learned different things from. I will say that I'm definitely without your looming sense of impending doom, and when I watch RTD and Joss, it is with the intermittent feeling that they're being Rather Silly by hitting everyone with the angst mallet again.

Various Star Treks were definitely my first fannish tv show, and I think I retain a lot of the mindset from them *but* . . . Star Trek is such a thing unto itself that you never really go into other shows expecting them to work the way Star Trek does. It isn't written around interpersonal conflict, for example.

Star Trek is mostly a status-quo kind of show, and I think I do expect an overall kind of stability in tv shows (though perhaps not of the "everything returns to exactly where it started" kind). More of a stability of overall feel/purpose/focus/show-i-ness. And when a show changes to a point where I don't recognize it anymore, I have no compunctions about dropping it.

Probably the two big things Trek shaped in my tv expectations is that I'm shocked when:
1) couples actually get together. Star Trek ships are seven seasons of UST and then nothing :-\
2) seasons don't end on a cliffhanger. Cliffhangers are just how things work.

House, BSG, and HIMYM taught me collectively that no matter how awesome and perfect and genius a show seems, sooner or later the producers will destroy it. Actually, American tv is excellent for teaching that in general, what with its endless seasons. I think that's my big looming worry, far more than characters getting killed off or individual plot developments, is that sooner or later any show's writers will loose their handle on what they're creating. Which is why I am willing to drop any show, ever.

[elisi]

Hmmmmm, your ponderings intrigue me.

(It was either this one, or Ten and Donna cracking up... *g*)

I'm not sure if I have one formative tv experience quite in the way you do, but I've got a number of shows I learned different things from. I will say that I'm definitely without your looming sense of impending doom, and when I watch RTD and Joss, it is with the intermittent feeling that they're being Rather Silly by hitting everyone with the angst mallet again.
*snerk* It's an effective mallet though, it has to be said.

Star Trek is mostly a status-quo kind of show, and I think I do expect an overall kind of stability in tv shows (though perhaps not of the "everything returns to exactly where it started" kind). More of a stability of overall feel/purpose/focus/show-i-ness. And when a show changes to a point where I don't recognize it anymore, I have no compunctions about dropping it.
Hmmm, I can see that. And I think a lot of Old Skool Whovians felt that about DW back in the day? OK, so the show has change built-in, yet some things were always the same. [And RTD changed some of them, alienating fans, and Moffat fixed them whilst at the same time changing stuff like GIVING THE DOCTOR A WIFE, yet did it within the original confines of the show.... /random rambling]

Probably the two big things Trek shaped in my tv expectations is that I'm shocked when:
1) couples actually get together. Star Trek ships are seven seasons of UST and then nothing :-\
2) seasons don't end on a cliffhanger. Cliffhangers are just how things work.
1. Heh. Now is this better or worse than actually getting together [FINALLY] and then one of them getting killed off?
2. Hmmm. Cliffhangers. Not really thought about that.

I think that's my big looming worry, far more than characters getting killed off or individual plot developments, is that sooner or later any show's writers will loose their handle on what they're creating. Which is why I am willing to drop any show, ever.
Mmmm. Guess that DW regenerating works in its favour, definitely. And the UK's shorter seasons. Because there is only so long you can keep the steam rolling...

[rahirah]

Hm. Joss made me distrust the story, the storyteller, and myself, so yeah, I think I can say that BtVS changed the way I watch TV.

I am not sure this is a good thing.

[elisi]

Moffat has been a revelation - I've never trusted a storyteller before.

(Rusty was just Joss squared... I don't begrudge them the way they write, but the sheer relief of not having to be constantly prepared to be stabbed in the back is incredible.)

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

I think... it's the idea that a show has to keep to a formula? And then people get upset if it doesn't.

THIS.

Word to this whole post. I haven't gotten around to reading this Mark guy's reviews, but he sounds ADORBS.

[elisi]

:)

And oh, TOO ADORBS FOR WORDS!

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I always find it slightly odd now to go back and watch my favourite shows from the early 90's and remember how little continuity there was between episodes. Often there is something major happening in one episode, but then not even getting a mention in the next. I think Bts was definitely one of those late 90's shows that changed the way that audiences engage with tv shows. Even the minour continuity mentions between episodes (like Oz brining up the cheerleader trophy) were pretty unusual for the time

[elisi]

I think Bts was definitely one of those late 90's shows that changed the way that audiences engage with tv shows.
Good point. And now we have these ENDLESS shows...

[yourlibrarian]

I can get angry with writers, but only if the writing is bad. If they want to end the show with 'Rock Fall, Everyone Dies', then - as long as that's an ending that makes sense - I'll not complain.

This, yes. I can't say that Joss' work was my formative fandom, but I do agree that his great skill was in subverting expectations. In a way it's a very fannish skill because it requires an understanding of viewing/reading, not just writing, an understanding of how people have been trained to watch or read.

Unfortunately this reveals a lot of other writing to be lazy and unimaginative which makes it hard to maintain enthusiasm about it. I suspect this is why I don't mind so much if most shows don't make it past 3 seasons (well, 3 traditional seasons not this 13 episode business).

[elisi]

This, yes. I can't say that Joss' work was my formative fandom, but I do agree that his great skill was in subverting expectations. In a way it's a very fannish skill because it requires an understanding of viewing/reading, not just writing, an understanding of how people have been trained to watch or read.
*nods a lot* And Buffy taught me those skills, which is what makes it so special.

Unfortunately this reveals a lot of other writing to be lazy and unimaginative which makes it hard to maintain enthusiasm about it.
Trufax. Most TV bores me.

I suspect this is why I don't mind so much if most shows don't make it past 3 seasons (well, 3 traditional seasons not this 13 episode business).
Hey - no dissing UK shows! 13 episodes is a LONG season. A short season is 6!

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

I hope you don't mind the late comment--I just found this post from gabrielleabelle's link. I loved Torchwood before I loved Buffy, and so my response to Buffy (Season 2 in particular) was, "This is the show that everyone says is so brave about character deaths? This show is cowardly about character deaths!"

It didn't help that I knew Angel would go on to to get his own show, and because I could go straight from S2 to S3 I saw that he appeared the opening credits of the episode immediately after his death.

[elisi]

I hope you don't mind the late comment
Late comment always welcome! :)

I loved Torchwood before I loved Buffy, and so my response to Buffy (Season 2 in particular) was, "This is the show that everyone says is so brave about character deaths? This show is cowardly about character deaths!"
*laughs* Oh Torchwood... Torchwood is TOTALLY RTD's version of AtS. 'I will have my OWN show with a broody immortal hero, except he'll be EVEN MORE TRAGIC, and there'll be a secret team with their own COOL BASE, and there'll be LOTS OF SEX, and LOTS OF GAY, and EVERYONE DIES...' *g* That said, RTD most definitely boldy goes where Joss fears to tread. (Discounting the Buffy comics, where Joss has just lost the plot completely and has let monkeys with typewriters write the stories.)

Anyway, thanks for your comment, and it's funny how we react to stuff, isn't it? Thanks to Buffy (and AtS) I was never one to complain about the high death rate on TW, because I knew this was par for the course...