elisi | Fannish thoughts.

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Fannish thoughts.

Reading 'Mark Watches Buffy' has made me think. Actually, it was this comment by

beer_good_foamy to my previous post which really kick-started things:

I'm completely hooked on Mark Watches Buffy. It's so, well, cute how he thinks he has a rough idea of where the show is going from here - and he hasn't even seen Spike and Dru, he has no idea who Giles is, he has no clue about where Willow is going, he thinks Angelus is something that happened in the past... I'm not sure if it's fannishness or sadism that's making me read these reviews, poor kid's in for a world of hurt. :D

Because Mark just flails and CAPSLOCKS and keels over every time the show does something unexpected. He's only just finished 'School Hard' (money quote: HOW IS ALL OF THIS HAPPENING IN THE THIRD EPISODE?) and knowing all the twists and turns that are coming does make the reviews sort of impossible to resist - it'll be ridiculously entertaining watching him have all his expectations demolished.

But here's the thing: He's not exactly a novice when it comes to TV. The second he saw Spike & Angel interact he knew that there must be a gazillion slash fics out there. He's just not used to how BtVS operates... Which made me wonder about how I see the world (as in - TV shows), and how much I've been shaped by BtVS. I've always said that it taught me everything, which is true, but now I'm wondering what it's like for people whose formative fannish experience wasn't Buffy? Who aren't always waiting for the other shoe to drop (people are happy = HORRIBLE THINGS are about to happen); who aren't used to EVERYTHING being subverted; who aren't familiar with the fact that ANYONE could die (and on the flipside - ANYONE could come back, if necessary)...

I'm not entirely sure if this means that I'm suffering from Post-Traumatic Joss Syndrome or whether I've somehow become immune to Righteous ['You Can't DO That!'] Anger/Surprise. (I can get angry with writers, but only if the writing is bad. If they want to end the show with 'Rock Fall, Everyone Dies', then - as long as that's an ending that makes sense - I'll not complain.)

Does any of this make sense? I feel like I've got the hang of something, but I'm terrible at formulating it. I think... it's the idea that a show has to keep to a formula? And then people get upset if it doesn't. It's the constant subversion and the radical changes of Buffy that makes it so different, I guess. Nothing is static, and nothing set in stone. And that is my attitude to anything I watch. For someone to be so SURPRISED at this really just throws me...

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I have a theory that right around the same time in the late-90s, there were two shows on TV that completely changed the way good television is done: one of them was Buffy and the other was The West Wing (it's possible that if I were an X-Files fan, I would throw that in, too). In terms of long-term arcs, in terms of the quality of the writing, in terms of characterization, in terms of what you could do on a TV show, I think everything was different after those shows aired. I have a hard time watching TV from earlier than that, because a lot of it just seems so bad to me - there's no follow-through, very little character growth, and never much threat of anything actually changing.

But yeah. Every time one of my characters is happy, I go, "Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!" This is not as true of Doctor Who under Moffat (though it was under RTD), but it is certainly true of other shows I watch (Downton Abbey in particular). TV writers feel the need to constantly ratchet up the tension, and as sad as it is to say, happy characters are really just kinda . . . boring. Conflict drives plot.

Edited 2012-01-04 18:55 (UTC)

Heh. I only came into Buffy late in life - what, four years ago now? BUT, I must say it didn't really... seem all that different from the rest of TV. I dunno, maybe I'm just jaded and shit. But I did love it, even as I cringed through bits.

This "Mark watches" thing makes me SOOOOOOOOO desperate to get my sister to finally give in and watch Buffy. I mean, she adores vampires - she watched the entire run of "Dark Shadows"! The ENTIRE RUN. On DVD. All majillion seasons. But she keeps saying that Buffy "Looks dumb". I gave her my complete series DVDS and she keeps refusing to watch!!! I'd show her this blog, but it's all spoilery and...

and okay, this is just my own personal rant, not a comment. SORRY!

one of them was Buffy and the other was The West Wing

Yessss. I'd add The Sopranos as well.

There have been a lot of shows that have made leaps and bounds in what's possible to do on TV - M*A*S*H, Hill Street Blues, Twin Peaks, X-Files, to name just a couple that are obviously in the background of a lot of shows today - but something happened in the late 90s. suddenly you had TV shows that not only had arcs, but also told stories on multiple levels, with clear voices of their own; there may have been dozens of writers in every season, but they still had a common authorial voice, and deliberately played against what the audience expected. Buffy was a horror movie for teens, so let's subvert what one expects of that plot. Tony Soprano was the hero of the show, so let's show him to be an absolute psychopath who manipulates everyone including the audience. Etc. The surprise, the twist, isn't just a gimmick but the entire premise of the show: to explore ideas - both those of the authors, and those of the audience.

Wooo! I inspired thinky thoughts! \o/

From what I've read of his other reviews, I think Mark is slightly more aware of possible future twists than he lets on - even if he's as unspoiled as he says, he should know that there will be major twists. He's a Moffatt fanboy too, after all. But I'm not sure he's prepared for the kind of twists; what I love about BtVS is the way the subversions actually become part of the story, especially in s2. The twists in BtVS go deep into the story, it's not just "Surprise! It turns out he was DEAD ALL ALONG!" Once he figures out how BtVS works - finds the formula - I think he'll be more at home; right now, he seems to think "Prophecy Girl" was a typical twist.

Then again, my first "OMG WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON" show was Twin Peaks. Part of me still can't get over how normal BtVS is. :P

Oh, man. Yes. I cut my teeth on X-Files and BtVS, and dude. Those shows, but particularly Buffy and Angel, taught me that TV will break my heart over and over again. And then, after my heart is broken, TV will rip it out of my chest and stomp it into the ground.

Which is why I'm constantly surprised when shows don't break my heart. I love Leverage for example, not least because the show's creator has promised me a happy ending and no cliffhangers over and over again, and I've come to believe him. But unless a creator/writer offers me a contract signed in blood, I'm going to assume that they will make me cry.

Buffy absolutely shaped how I watch tv. It's why I don't watch much of it, frankly- I've been spoiled and I will not settle. I expect character growth, intelligent dialogue, and complex story telling. I have a v hard time relating to consumers of media who don't have these expectations, and feel satisfied with sit-coms and reality tv.

My formative fannish experience was The X-Files, and it's taught me never to assume the writer know what they're doing.

Now whenever I see a show that answers ALL it's questions, I hug it tight.

In terms of long-term arcs, in terms of the quality of the writing, in terms of characterization, in terms of what you could do on a TV show, I think everything was different after those shows aired. I have a hard time watching TV from earlier than that, because a lot of it just seems so bad to me - there's no follow-through, very little character growth, and never much threat of anything actually changing.
*nods* The thing is, that surely these things can't be completely NEW to him? *is puzzled*

But yeah. Every time one of my characters is happy, I go, "Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!"
Ooooh yes. If they're happy, I assume the crash position. If one of the main hero gains a love interest, that person get an automatic target on their chest, because the best way to hurt the hero is through those (s)he loves...

This is not as true of Doctor Who under Moffat (though it was under RTD)
RTD is SO MUCH LIKE JOSS, it's uncanny, whereas Moffat keep surprising me by *not* subverting things the way I'm used to. Take Rusty's SJA episodes: 'The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith' and 'Death of the Doctor'. Neither of those episodes do what they claim to. Sarah Jane doesn't get married. The Doctor doesn't die. But 'The Wedding of River Song' is about her wedding. It the how and why that gets subverted, not the thing in itself. <3

TV writers feel the need to constantly ratchet up the tension, and as sad as it is to say, happy characters are really just kinda . . . boring. Conflict drives plot.
Which is why I don't watch a lot of TV.

BUT, I must say it didn't really... seem all that different from the rest of TV. I dunno, maybe I'm just jaded and shit.
This is what so surprises me. How can anyone be that unsuspecting?

And good luck with your sister. I'm presuming you've told her that they study Buffy at several universities? Oh, and here's a lovely quote:

I think it’s always important for academics to study popular culture, even if the thing they are studying is idiotic. If it’s successful or made a dent in culture, then it is worthy of study to find out why. ‘Buffy,’ on the other hand is, I hope, not idiotic. We think very carefully about what we’re trying to say emotionally, politically, and even philosophically while we’re writing it. The process of breaking a story involves the writers and myself, so a lot of different influences, prejudices, and ideas get rolled up into it. So it really is, apart from being a big pop culture phenom, something that is deeply layered textually episode by episode.
Joss Whedon

The thing is, that surely these things can't be completely NEW to him? *is puzzled*
Hmm, that is true. I'm not sure why he's so surprised by Buffy's twists and turns.

RTD is SO MUCH LIKE JOSS, it's uncanny
And yet I love Joss and can't stand RTD's writing, so . . . hmm! Maybe it's because with Joss, I often felt that if the rock was going to fall and people were going to die, there was going to be a reason, whereas very often with RTD, I felt as though the rocks were falling because he thought they should, or because he couldn't figure out how to end the arc any other way.

Which is why I don't watch a lot of TV.
Heh. Well, I love TV, or at least I love good TV, but I also get a bit tired of characters never being allowed to be happy. My main non-DW fandom is White Collar, which for its first two seasons was an utterly delightful buddy copy show where one of the "cops" happened to be a convicted felon. It was smart and sexy and fun . . . and then it took an left turn at Albuquerque, acquired an extraordinarily problematic Nazi loot plot, and suddenly characters were angry at each other all the goddamn time and people I'd been rooting for for two years were not all that likeable anymore. And the showrunner, responding to fan complaints, basically said that whether we wanted it or not, the show needed CONFLICT, dammit - which I agree with in principle, but not, in this case, in the execution.

But I digress.

Wooo! I inspired thinky thoughts! \o/
That's because you're a clever and awesome person.

From what I've read of his other reviews, I think Mark is slightly more aware of possible future twists than he lets on - even if he's as unspoiled as he says, he should know that there will be major twists.
Well he has no illusions when it comes to Joss - he knows that Joss loves nothing more than to rip people's hearts out and laughing. So there is that.

But I'm not sure he's prepared for the kind of twists; what I love about BtVS is the way the subversions actually become part of the story, especially in s2. The twists in BtVS go deep into the story, it's not just "Surprise! It turns out he was DEAD ALL ALONG!"
That's a very good point.

Once he figures out how BtVS works - finds the formula - I think he'll be more at home; right now, he seems to think "Prophecy Girl" was a typical twist.
He needs to learn to understand what 'jossing' really means. *g*

Then again, my first "OMG WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON" show was Twin Peaks. Part of me still can't get over how normal BtVS is. :P
I've never seen that, but I've felt the waves?

Which is why I'm constantly surprised when shows don't break my heart.
Ooooh yes, THIS. This is the reason Moffat Doctor Who is my favourite thing EVER. He promises happy endings and then he gives them to us. It's like MAGIC. The surprises lie in the HOW, not in a turnaround at the last minute where Rocks Fall And Everyone Dies. Not that it can't be sad - and sometimes it is - but its purpose isn't to kick you and then laugh as you can't breathe. Or to just be BLEAK AS HELL! (That's to RTD for Torchwood: Children of Earth. Brilliant, yet horrible.)

(Just realised terrible typos, hence editing. *facepalm*)

Edited 2012-01-06 18:13 (UTC)

You and me both. I feel like such a snob... My husband - who is generally Mr Highbrow Incarnate - can watch endless episodes of CSI, f.ex., and I just find myself hopelessly frustrated because it's the same plot every week. Except sometimes there's a finale and one of the main characters (whose names I can never remember, except for Horatio Cane) gets kidnapped or something.

I need more. (Layers and metaphors and character development and snappy dialogue and a complex 'verse etc. etc.)

LOL.

I have only seen one episode of Buffy, but watching Firefly was definitely a new experience for me. The idea that beloved main characters who really had no reason to die could suddenly be killed was not something I was used to--at the time I watched it, I had seen comparatively little adult/serious television, and so I was used to the writers following expectations and trying to give the audience what it wanted.

See this is clearly where I am warped, because I expect stuff like that to happen. The more horrible, the less I want it to - the more likely it is, from my POV. So when things turn out less horrible than expected I am v. grateful. (RTD is so much like Joss...)

I have no idea what to expect anymore. Joss and RTD taught me that the evillest, saddest, worst possible thing would always happen, and then The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang taught me that things would turn out way better than you expected and then S6 of Doctor Who taught me that everything would be completely and utterly nuts, so I have no idea what reasonable expectations are anymore. Probably my expectations are that whatever I expect will not in fact be what I get.

Hmm, that is true. I'm not sure why he's so surprised by Buffy's twists and turns.
I think

beer_good_fomay has it right below - he needs to get his head around the way Buffy works, and then he'll probably stop being so stunned all the time. (Mind you, I'll miss the entertainment value... *g*)

And yet I love Joss and can't stand RTD's writing, so . . . hmm! Maybe it's because with Joss, I often felt that if the rock was going to fall and people were going to die, there was going to be a reason, whereas very often with RTD, I felt as though the rocks were falling because he thought they should, or because he couldn't figure out how to end the arc any other way.
*snicker* I think it's the fact that Joss has a team of writers - when left to his own devices he's worse than Rusty. (*points to Buffy comics as proof of this*) Rusty, Joss, George Lucas - these are writers who can create INCREDIBLE things when surrounded by people to reign them in, but who should never EVER be allowed to do 'whatever they want'.

Sorry - accidentally pressed 'post'.

Heh. Well, I love TV, or at least I love good TV, but I also get a bit tired of characters never being allowed to be happy.
This. It's like there is this idea that to be 'deep' and 'meaningful' everyone needs to be angsting all over the place/people need to die/terrible stuff has to happen, which just strikes me as a bit... juvenile? Like an emo teenager who paints everything black.

Edited 2012-01-04 21:18 (UTC)

I think my Jossian focus has made it so I cannot watch TV correctly anymore. Take Moffat's Who, for example. I really think that the reason I was so often mistaken about how the story would go is I kept expecting Moffat to twist the rug out from under me - I read into lines of dialogue and images way more than was necessary. As I rewatch, I see how completely straightforward the plot is. He tells us what is going to happen and then it happens. The details twist and turn a bit, but they don't change anything. I find this confusing and perplexing. Because, see, I'm supposed to be told this will happen, and instead that happens and also everyone dies and also haha never trust anything you silly, silly thing. Joss trained me well. Unlearning that training is hard.

So Mark has not endured the Joss Whedon Masterclass on screwing with us proper. Oh, how he shall learn. ;)

I find this confusing and perplexing. Because, see, I'm supposed to be told this will happen, and instead that happens and also everyone dies and also haha never trust anything you silly, silly thing. Joss trained me well. Unlearning that training is hard.
THIS! I mean, I can easily see what's going to happen, the metaphors are beautiful and strong. I saw Amy's wedding dress at the end of The Eleventh Hour, and everything said 'So, obviously, the season will end with Amy and Rory's wedding'. Except... that's not how it works, I've learned that over the course of many years and a broken heart. Except with Moffat IT DOES! I still have to sort of pinch myself that a story I love is unfolding the way I want it to, and that he's not sitting somewhere, cackling, waiting for JUST THE RIGHT MOMENT to destroy EVERYTHING. But he isn't. He really isn't. He likes happy endings. He likes making his characters happy. I just. WHAT IS THIS? IT MUST BE WITCHCRAFT! *points to icon*

So Mark has not endured the Joss Whedon Masterclass on screwing with us proper. Oh, how he shall learn. ;)
Oh he will. Damn, I can't wait for Surprise/Innocence. *is evil*

Sounds about right! :) Although I was fairly accurate in seeing where S6 was going - that was nice. It was the HOW that was the tricky part.

I friended you off your Who meta. I hope this was OK but I can delete you if you would prefer :)

I have never watched Buffy before- or at least- if I did it was all in my childhood in no particular order and my memory fails me. I've been wondering for awhile now if I should watch it but I am wary of serial tv shows after torturing myself watching Spooks, where the ending was so nihilistic for no real reason I wanted to cut a bitch. But then from what you say Buffy sounds all metaphorical and symbolic and damn I love that. *Is confused*

I'm just a bit worried that when he gets to Seeing Red he'll start hating Spike. :(

Otherwise, reading what he says is great fun.

WHAT IS THIS? IT MUST BE WITCHCRAFT!

EXACTLY.

Ok I decided to go read a bit of Mark's School Hard review and got to this:

This episode gives me a great idea of what his character arc might be like, and I think that season two is going to set him up as the main antagonist, like the Master, for Buffy to fight.

... and just burst into a fit of giggles. This kid is ADORABLE. I'd like to roll him up and put him in my pocket, the wee naive thing.

So…he gives Angel the creeps? He worries Angel? Is Angel jealous or something? I don’t quite understand this yet, but I can see that this new character is not someone who is very disposable. Yet, that is. He’s not a main character, so he could die at any time! THIS IS WHAT I KNOW TO BE TRUE.

ADORBS.

I friended you off your Who meta. I hope this was OK but I can delete you if you would prefer :)
Oh no - the more the merrier! I love new friends! <3

But then from what you say Buffy sounds all metaphorical and symbolic and damn I love that. *Is confused*
Buffy is AWESOME! Everything I know about meta I learned from Buffy. Layers, symbolism, character arcs, foreshadowing, metaphors, continuity... I got it all from Buffy. It was the show that taught me to watch TV, if that makes sense. Yes, it pulls the rug out under stuff, yes it completely and utterly breaks people's hearts, but it feels earned. And - and this is the important bit - there are always consequences. No one stays the same. Every character grows and changes and learns and gets hurt and gets better and screws up and has to pick themselves up again and learn to live with having screwed up massively. *flaily hands* (I am not capable of being objective about this show, since it's such a part of me.) If you can cope with being stabbed in the back now and again for the sake of REALLY GOOD STORYTELLING, then give Buffy a chance.

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