And maybe, in the end, the fact that his death *is* his own choice after all is what sets him free and paves the way for Eleven...

Oooh! Good thought!

Thank you. :)

And maybe, in the end, the fact that his death *is* his own choice after all is what sets him free and paves the way for Eleven...

I just wish RTD had shown that. It would have made a much more satisfying conclusion. The end of the Time Lords could have been shown as a release, showing him that his decision to destroy them first time around was the right one and allowing him to move on without guilt.

One of the most profound comments about Ten I have heard is that he has to convince himself he's right about everything because it's the only way he can live with himself - otherwise he admits to the possibility he was wrong about killing his people. And surely, having that one, all-important decision vindicated would clear the way for him to become a calmer person.

I keep thinking about the Second Doctor saying that his dead family "sleep in my mind" - I wonder if that is the normal process after regeneration, that his memories move to a kind of archive where they're only immediately accessible if he makes a particular effort to retrieve them. But perhaps the trauma of the Time War made him feel that he had to keep them accessible in his mind, going over and over them, and that pushed him to the edge of insanity.

If that was the case, it would make Eleven's complete silence on the subject of his past more understandable - he is a new man in the sense that he has put aside the immediate emotions associated with his last two personalities. It would also explain the apparent callousness with which, by human standards, he treats former companions. If they are "sleeping in his mind" their feelings about being abandoned won't make a lot of sense to him.

In "School Reunion" we could see the struggle the Doctor was having to model himself on Rose, a theme that continued all the way through S2. He was trying to be human so he could reassure her, and offer her a human love. Right up to, "How long are you going to stay with me, then?" I think we can see him playing around with that. It would explain why, when he does swing back to being a Time Lord, he has a tough time controlling his darker impulses. If we know we tried to become something we are not for the sake of someone we idolised, and it ends badly, there's a natural tendency to overcompensate by swinging to the other extreme. Donna seemed to help him find the middle way and he was more or less okay until he lost her.

Edited 2010-12-20 16:18 (UTC)

he has to convince himself he's right about everything because it's the only way he can live with himself - otherwise he admits to the possibility he was wrong about killing his people.

That's brilliant; and I totally agree. Granted I have a huge soft spot for 10. He just breaks my heart.

Doctor was having to model himself on Rose, a theme that continued all the way through S2. He was trying to be human so he could reassure her, and offer her a human love. Right up to, "How long are you going to stay with me, then?" I think we can see him playing around with that. It would explain why, when he does swing back to being a Time Lord, he has a tough time controlling his darker impulses. If we know we tried to become something we are not for the sake of someone we idolised, and it ends badly, there's a natural tendency to overcompensate by swinging to the other extreme. Donna seemed to help him find the middle way and he was more or less okay until he lost her.

::nods::

I just wish RTD had shown that. It would have made a much more satisfying conclusion. The end of the Time Lords could have been shown as a release, showing him that his decision to destroy them first time around was the right one and allowing him to move on without guilt.
This is where I am very a-typical. As long as I can make it make sense in my head, I'm not all that bothered about it not being shown overtly. But I agree that it would have made the transition a lot smoother. OTOH, clinging onto himself for as long as he could was so Ten.

One of the most profound comments about Ten I have heard is that he has to convince himself he's right about everything because it's the only way he can live with himself - otherwise he admits to the possibility he was wrong about killing his people.
That was MEEEEEE! \o/ (Well, I have said this. Others might have too, I shall not claim obvious-in-when-pointed-out insights as entirely my own...)

And surely, having that one, all-important decision vindicated would clear the way for him to become a calmer person.
Yes, I think so, very much. Just look at him talk about it in 'The Beast Below' - he's very matter of fact, not wallowing or trying to hide.

I keep thinking about the Second Doctor saying that his dead family "sleep in my mind" - I wonder if that is the normal process after regeneration, that his memories move to a kind of archive where they're only immediately accessible if he makes a particular effort to retrieve them. But perhaps the trauma of the Time War made him feel that he had to keep them accessible in his mind, going over and over them, and that pushed him to the edge of insanity.
Oooooh, this I like. Yes. I can see this definitely. Oh Ten.

If that was the case, it would make Eleven's complete silence on the subject of his past more understandable - he is a new man in the sense that he has put aside the immediate emotions associated with his last two personalities
*nods a lot*

It would also explain the apparent callousness with which, by human standards, he treats former companions. If they are "sleeping in his mind" their feelings about being abandoned won't make a lot of sense to him.
It's again that alien thing. Although 'Death of the Doctor' dealt very well with this - I liked the Eleven/Jo conversation muchly.

If we know we tried to become something we are not for the sake of someone we idolised, and it ends badly, there's a natural tendency to overcompensate by swinging to the other extreme.
Hmmm, yes. That's very good. And - as always happens - I find myself reccing Pendulum, which is quite simply the Tenth Doctor fic. Written post-S3, it still manages to encapsulate him absolutely perfectly - and knowing that Donna is still to come both ameliorates the ending, and makes it worse.

I just wish RTD had shown that. It would have made a much more satisfying conclusion. The end of the Time Lords could have been shown as a release, showing him that his decision to destroy them first time around was the right one and allowing him to move on without guilt.

I spent a lot of time wishing RTD's DW stories were just a bit less ambiguous, just a bit clearer, but I've come to the conclusion that this just isn't how he wanted to tell them. The ambiguity is deliberate; he doesn't want clear-cut, satisfying conclusions. The end of Love and Monsters is exemplary, really. The terrible and the wonderful and how it's all mixed up and part of the same thing - life.

Besides, I think what the Doctor did ending the Time War is something so enormous that it's impossible to ever move on from it without guilt. I think Ten always knew the decision was... maybe not the right one, but certainly the necessary one, he just kept struggling against a universe that made such decisions necessary and gave him nothing in return, except more pain and loss. It's the same with Jack in CoE - killing Stephen was ultimately the... again, it's almost impossible to call it the right decision, but while it was necessary, it was also something terrible to do, and Jack will probably never get rid of the guilt.

I spent a lot of time wishing RTD's DW stories were just a bit less ambiguous, just a bit clearer, but I've come to the conclusion that this just isn't how he wanted to tell them. The ambiguity is deliberate; he doesn't want clear-cut, satisfying conclusions.
*nods a lot*

I also like your distinction between 'right' and 'necessary', which is absolutely spot-on.

Mmmm, I think you are very right.

Also, what

ladymercury_10 said.

I love both his "I don't want to die" speeches/rants to Wilf--they felt truthful and consistent with everything we'd seen of Ten and his path (and were fantastically acted). But then, I have very little invested in seeing him in a heroic light.

Very unuseful comment. Here, have a fish: <>

Fishes have disappearing tails! This is alarming.

*
*
*
<><

Tail fail.

Fishes have disappearing tails! This is alarming.
*dies laughing*

FIIIIIIIISH!!!

<><

(Also I love using both of my Oncoming Storm icons...)

(Also I love using both of my Oncoming Storm icons...)
It's like a little story all contained in two little boxes yet saying so much.

*pets Ten* Perhaps he had a premonition about what was going to become of his hair.

It's like a little story all contained in two little boxes yet saying so much.
Isn't it just? :) Of course Eleven's 'proper' Oncoming Storm moment is in The Pandorica Opens - and yet, there he's bluffing like nobody's business...

*pets Ten* Perhaps he had a premonition about what was going to become of his hair.
LOL! No really, actual laughter! And now I'm reminded of those icons of Eleven that say 'The hair apparent'. :)

Of course Eleven's 'proper' Oncoming Storm moment is in The Pandorica Opens - and yet, there he's bluffing like nobody's business...
And about to be screwed over by dramatic irony, both of which together really validate the scene, rather in the way that Ten's raging at the dying of the light was warranted by the fact that we *knew* it would end with him stepping into that booth anyway. *hugs both scenes for being awesome*

LOL! No really, actual laughter! And now I'm reminded of those icons of Eleven that say 'The hair apparent'. :)
Hee hee =D Ten was so very vain about his hair--you could tell--and just look at what became of him! I do believe the universe has a sense of humor.

And about to be screwed over by dramatic irony, both of which together really validate the scene, rather in the way that Ten's raging at the dying of the light was warranted by the fact that we *knew* it would end with him stepping into that booth anyway. *hugs both scenes for being awesome*
Nothing to add, you said it perfectly.

Hee hee =D Ten was so very vain about his hair--you could tell--and just look at what became of him! I do believe the universe has a sense of humor.
I remember last Christmas someone linked to an image of the Tenth Doctor - a very large image. His hair filled my whole screen, something I thought rather appropriate. (There are a lot of theories about Ten's hair being sentient - if you bother to notice, then the more excited/angry he is, the more it sticks up!)

Mmmm, I think you are very right.
Thank you! :)

I love both his "I don't want to die" speeches/rants to Wilf--they felt truthful and consistent with everything we'd seen of Ten and his path (and were fantastically acted). But then, I have very little invested in seeing him in a heroic light.
Heh. But yes - those speeches were *so* Ten. ::pets him::

Ten's most recent experiences of death are very final. John Smith's death was *exactly* what he describes above - he died, and the Doctor sauntered away, wearing his face. And he was dead. Because - despite John Smith being *somewhere* inside the Doctor - he was well and truly dead.

Oh, great observation.

Because Ten also feels quite entitled in a lot of ways. (IMHO) he feels that it is desperately unfair that he has to die - he's lost so much already (Rose, Joan, the Master, Jenny, River etc.) and does he also have to lose himself? (Why can't he control life and death? Ooooh, Timelord Victorious, you were only ever a tiny step away.)

I love 11, but this sort of thing is why 10 owns my soul. He's just so broken. And he's so pretty when he suffers. (Me? Shallow?)

Oh, great observation.
Thank you. I felt it merited its own post...

I love 11, but this sort of thing is why 10 owns my soul. He's just so broken. And he's so pretty when he suffers. (Me? Shallow?)
Heeee! He does break beautifully, and I love it. Although this is also why I think Eleven would probably win if I had to choose (not that I do! I can have them both!) - Ten is fascinating and gorgeously broken... But I like Eleven so much more. Eleven makes me feel safe which no other hero ever has.

Sorry, perusing your meta for the umpteenth time and reading comments.

Just thought I'd input that I too love Ten and Eleven quite equally, and frankly I don't think I could love either without the other, though I admit I like where he's at right now and wouldn't want that to change so soon. I definitely love me some broken characters. Alot (I think like 98% of all characters I've ever liked are broken or have been broken, to a certain degree). but for me personally, the best part is getting to see a broken character find the ability to take a step towards the light.

One of my pipe dreams is to see Matt and David on the same screen together in an episode, if only for predecessor and successor to look at what they'd become/where they came from.

Sorry, perusing your meta for the umpteenth time and reading comments.
Oh please don't apologise! The comments are brilliant. :)

I definitely love me some broken characters. Alot (I think like 98% of all characters I've ever liked are broken or have been broken, to a certain degree). but for me personally, the best part is getting to see a broken character find the ability to take a step towards the light.
*nods a lot* I think one reason I'm so enchanted by Eleven is that he's new - not in sense of 'Ooooh shiny!', but in the sense that I am very, very familiar with broken characters, and with seeing them slowly pick themselves up, but I've never really before seen what happens after they get over their traumas, if that makes sense. Eleven is OK. No other character I've loved has managed to move on to such a degree and it's wonderful to watch. :)

(Icon a homage to Angel - the original Billowy Coat King of Pain - and the fact that both Jack and Ten fit into his mould perfectly!)

i had a discussion about this with someone ages ago. here: http://community.livejournal.com/doctorwho/6538097.html?thread=97336689#t97336689

before that i was pretty ragey about it. Like, you're immortal, dude. Get over it.

But that comment helped me see it differently.

i had a discussion about this with someone ages ago. here
Oh thank you for that, it's excellent!

before that i was pretty ragey about it. Like, you're immortal, dude. Get over it.
LOL! Um, yes. Personally I was more along the lines of 'Darling Ten, just get it over with. Promise you'll feel so much better afterwards...'

But of course he clung on, desperate and angry and FULL OF PAAAAAIN, for as long as he possibly could. :)

BILLOWY COAT KING OF PAIN.

*points to icon*

Haha. Aw Jack, you used to be so fun. :(

He will be again, I'm sure. :)

(Loved CoE though. An absolute masterpiece, which also broke my heart more thoroughly than anything else ever. And that includes the whole of the Buffy verse...)

I refuse to watch it, but I pretty much know everything that happens anyway :P

Fair enough!

*points to icon again*

I love you and your meta (especially about Ten and Eleven), please don't stop writing it :D

It is a VERY interesting observation that, perhaps Ten's very human reaction to death (and human-ness overall) might've had something to do with the fact that he WAS human, if only for a short time. It's something that sets Ten apart from his other incarnations.

And maybe, in the end, the fact that his death *is* his own choice after all is what sets him free and paves the way for Eleven...

I will forever believe this to be the case, it makes too much sense. Ten ultimately made the decision to sacrifice his life for a friend, so he became Eleven who would risk his life for others without any hesitation.

I love you and your meta (especially about Ten and Eleven), please don't stop writing it :D
Aw, thank you. And I don't think I could stop, even if I wanted to...

It is a VERY interesting observation that, perhaps Ten's very human reaction to death (and human-ness overall) might've had something to do with the fact that he WAS human, if only for a short time. It's something that sets Ten apart from his other incarnations.
Hmmm. *ponders* Certainly, it makes him look at things from a different perspective from then on, I'm sure.

I will forever believe this to be the case, it makes too much sense. Ten ultimately made the decision to sacrifice his life for a friend, so he became Eleven who would risk his life for others without any hesitation.
*nods* And to quote Angel (the show): "What we once were informs all that we have become. The same love will infect our hearts – even if they no longer beat."

Because Ten also feels quite entitled in a lot of ways. (IMHO) he feels that it is desperately unfair that he has to die - he's lost so much already (Rose, Joan, the Master, Jenny, River etc.) and does he also have to lose himself?

Worrrrd.

Thank you! :)

I love the comparison between John Smith/Ten, as well as DoctorDonna/mind-wiped Donna. Very insightful. To that point, this is a Time Lord on his 10th regeneration -- he knows exactly what it feels like to have gone from a previous self into a newer self and to have his personalities and quirks and tastes die and become something new over and over again.

I love the comparison between John Smith/Ten, as well as DoctorDonna/mind-wiped Donna. Very insightful.
Thank you. :)

To that point, this is a Time Lord on his 10th regeneration -- he knows exactly what it feels like to have gone from a previous self into a newer self and to have his personalities and quirks and tastes die and become something new over and over again.
*nods a lot* I wish I was more familiar with Old!Who, since the only other New!Who regeneration we have is Nine's and that is as different as can be. Esp, I think, because Nine has already made up his mind to die/sacrifice himself when Rose appears, so dying for her (after she saves the world) is not such a bad deal. Ten, as you say, knows what's coming and resists, having more than enough time to brood on all the drawbacks. (I love Eleven's conversation with Sarah Jane btw. and the ways in which he doesn't answer her questions about Ten.)

Esp, I think, because Nine has already made up his mind to die/sacrifice himself when Rose appears, so dying for her (after she saves the world) is not such a bad deal.

True true. Then you also have the s3 post-Rose "who cares, go ahead, kill me as long as it saves people" Ten. Like how he's willing to have his blood sucked without a backup plan in Smith & Jones -- and have it be only luck that Martha stumbled into the room and could revive him. Or of course "Kill me if it’ll stop you attacking these people! Then do it! Do it! Just do it! DOOO IIIIIIT!" in Evolution of the Daleks. I think after he loses Rose, he temporarily goes back to Nine's mindset because as he tells Lazarus, "I’m old enough to know that a longer life isn’t always a better one. In the end, you just get tired. Tired of the struggle. Tired of losing everyone that matters to you. Tried of watching everything turn to dust."

(Some people who dislike Rose vehemently, vehemently disagree with me on this lolol, oh well).

True true. Then you also have the s3 post-Rose "who cares, go ahead, kill me as long as it saves people" Ten.
Oooh yes. He is reckless, bordering on suicidal for a lot of S3, and I think it's definitely because of Rose. Love her or loathe her, her importance to him is immense, since she's the first person he really connects to post-Time War. Plus, of course, she's willing to risk everything to be with him, and he dies for her... That's pretty powerful stuff. ("If I believe in anything, I believe in her!") Poor Ten...

I wandered over here yesterday from a link at

who_daily, read your post and the comments and thought - "wow! I'll have to come back and re-read and comment when I can think of something substantive to say!"

And now I'm back - but just to say thank you for sharing your thoughts which make a lot of sense. I didn't have a problem with the manner of Ten's death - I didn't see his final words as "whiny" as some did, because I thought that here was a man who, despite all the crap that life had thrown at him, still wanted to live and IMO there's something desperately heroic about that. But the idea that he's possibly the only Doctor who could liken regeneration to death hadn't occurred to me before; same with your comments about Donna's "death" and her "regeneration" as a different person.

I also found myself nodding at

solitary_summer's comment about the ambiguity of Rusty's stories.

Anyway - thanks for sharing and for an interesting discussion.

And now I'm back - but just to say thank you for sharing your thoughts which make a lot of sense.
Well thank you very much! :)

I didn't have a problem with the manner of Ten's death - I didn't see his final words as "whiny" as some did, because I thought that here was a man who, despite all the crap that life had thrown at him, still wanted to live and IMO there's something desperately heroic about that.
Oh yes. (You've read this meta I presume?) Also, I think that for all his suicidal tendencies, he didn't want to die. To quote one of my friends, because she puts it perfectly:

'It's a story about a point in my life where sometimes living seemed bleak and hopeless and impossibly hard. And often enough, at those times – and they were rare – I’d find myself standing on the bridge looking over the river, mesmerised, or sitting at my window looking three floors down to the ground. And never, ever with an intention to do – simply in acknowledgment of the thought. But I'd hate that the thought – the feeling - would be there. And then one day it hit me, and it was never the magic solution that made it all go away, but it made a difference, I think. I didn't want to die; I wanted to jump.'

But the idea that he's possibly the only Doctor who could liken regeneration to death hadn't occurred to me before; same with your comments about Donna's "death" and her "regeneration" as a different person.
When I made the connection my jaw literally dropped. I love it when that happens - when something fits together and you go 'Oh of course!'

I also found myself nodding at solitary_summer's comment about the ambiguity of Rusty's stories.
She's written the meta about the RTD era: Death, life, and what it means to be human in RTD's Doctor Who and Torchwood. Very, very, very long. But worth it!

Anyway - thanks for sharing and for an interesting discussion.
Thank you for commenting. :)

Thanks for the links. I have read

jackoholic's post and I remember finding it at a time when I was so fed up with all the negativity I was seeing in posts and comments about Ten's "death". It was one of those times when I wondered what show everyone else had been watching!

Lightbulb moments are always good ;-)

I remember finding it at a time when I was so fed up with all the negativity I was seeing in posts and comments about Ten's "death". It was one of those times when I wondered what show everyone else had been watching!
Oh do I know *that* feeling! (Which is why I tend to only read positive reviews. I can live without wanting to hit people over the head... Well, I don't mind fair criticism, but so often people just bash. *sigh*)

Lightbulb moments are always good ;-)
They really are!

I didn't see his final words as "whiny" as some did, because I thought that here was a man who, despite all the crap that life had thrown at him, still wanted to live and IMO there's something desperately heroic about that.

I completely agree. What I love so much about Ten is that despite the moments of darkness and despair he also has a fundamental love for life that I always felt was absolutely genuine, and I'm happy that his last moment was about that. There are worse kinds of regret. Besides if he hadn't minded dying, if the decision hadn't cost him anything, his sacrifice would have been worthless.

Besides if he hadn't minded dying, if the decision hadn't cost him anything, his sacrifice would have been worthless.

That's it exactly. This show has always been about the choices the Doctor has to make, and in the new era especially, the cost of many of those choices.

I hadn't thought of what happens to Donna in this light, but you're right. It's kind of the inverse of a Time Lord's regeneration, though - the Doctor gets a new body and personality, but keeps the knowledge and memories. Donna keeps her body and personality, but loses the knowledge and memories.

Both remain in some fundamental way the same person, but destroy a fundamental part of themselves.

I wonder if I had a choice between the two kinds of regeneration, which I would choose.

I hadn't thought of what happens to Donna in this light, but you're right. It's kind of the inverse of a Time Lord's regeneration, though - the Doctor gets a new body and personality, but keeps the knowledge and memories. Donna keeps her body and personality, but loses the knowledge and memories.
Ah yes, that's very true.

Both remain in some fundamental way the same person, but destroy a fundamental part of themselves.
No wonder Ten talks about it as a death...

(You might like my fic Donna's Choice btw. /random self-pimp)

...And I am dead.

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