elisi | I don't ship Spike/Cordelia, but...

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I don't ship Spike/Cordelia, but...

Everyone should watch this vid:

Haunted by Astarte.

Originally rec'd by

sdwolfpup (when a vidder recs a vid, it's good to pay attention...) I downloaded out of curiosity. And OMG!!!1!!11!!!! I am *so* in awe of this vid! It's almost like a fic, in that it builds an AU where Spike and Cordelia are connected... oh, I don't know how to describe it, just go watch. It is so well made that it left me literally slack-jawed the first time - and still does now after many viewings. The cutting is so incredibly well done, that you'd swear they were in the same room! If you only watch one vid this year, let this be the one!

I was thinking about BtVS and Doctor Who and the differences between the shows. And why so many people loved the finale of Doctor Who, but not Buffy. There are many reasons for this, and I don't want to start arguments, but it occurred to me that DW is fundamentally shippy. (ETA: Only the latest series, I should add.) It's written as a shippy show. The writer even used the word 'soulmates' to describe The Doctor and Rose. On Buffy however that was never the case - Buffy was always about the individual character's journey. So Buffy and Spike completed their separate archs, whereas The Doctor and Rose completed their joint one. I think that makes sense...

Now one thing about Buffy is that very few people can see her happily settled with Mr. Ordinary. But re-watching 'Firefly' recently, I thought that this is actually very silly. Because one of the loveliest couples *ever* has to be Zoe and Wash. And right there we have a relationship between a 'warrior-woman' and a guy who's hopeless at fighting. But he has other talents and the marriage is obviously very strong. So I think that if Buffy found the right guy (who might very well be a shanshued Spike...) she could be very happy.

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Good points all.

I think you are right that the recent Dr Who series was quite shippy and that worries me (as a traditionalist Who fan) the show should be about the adventures in time and space I think the amazing chemistry between Piper and Ecleston was partly responsible for how in to the ship (which was actaully only hinted at on screen through affection and jealousy) we all got. I'm actaully hoping for a different, more traditional Dr/companion chemistry between Piper and what's his name? the new guy, as I think it has more staying power than UST.

Now one thing about Buffy is that very few people can see her happily settled with Mr. Ordinary.

I wonder if an element of this is because again the actor chemistry was so powerful between Marsters and Geller, something about the relationship really got to everyone. Spike could never be Mr Ordinary (we wouldn't like him if he was anyway) and so we can't see (don't want to see) Buffy with anyone else because how could it ever have the excitement of Buffy and Spike.

I've never seen firefly so i can't comment but perhaps if Riley had had any chemistry at all with Buffy we might have seen the whole thing differently, I believe the writters were always trying to make us see that a nice normal guy was exactly what she wanted and needed, but we wouldn't have it because it was oh so incredibly dull (or was that just Riely? :)

Wow - I ramble don't I? I'll stop now Sorry!

Don't say sorry - I love rambling! (And am quite prone to it myself...)

I'm actaully hoping for a different, more traditional Dr/companion chemistry between Piper and what's his name? the new guy, as I think it has more staying power than UST.
That's very good point. I've never seen the older series, but from what I can gather the shippy thing is new. Looking forward to see where they're going anyway.

the actor chemistry was so powerful between Marsters and Geller, something about the relationship really got to everyone
Oh yeah. And I think for a lot of people the ship almost became the show, which is probably why do many people were disappointed with S7.

And Riley... hmm, I don't know. Actually

sdwolfpup made an excellent vid examining Buffy's relationships. It's called 'Coin operated Boy' and is on her website. Since I'm rec'ing vids anyway...

Sorry my brain refuses to work today. But re. Buffy's relationship with Riley, I can also rec Spring Summer's analysis of 'The Replacement' over at The Soulful Spike Society. (Go to 'Spikecentricity'). She's a much cleverer lady than me!

Just downloading that video now with great excitement- I love the idea of Spike/Cordy, though actually I don't think I've ever read any. As far as I can think, they never actually shared screentime except for those few seconds in 'You're Welcome', did they? Tragic waste of shippy potential.

I'm thinking of writing some Cordy/Angel at the moment. They are so agonisingly, beautifully doomed. I need to hunt down more Cordy-centric writing.

They had a *bit* of screentime in S2 and AtS S1, but not much. This vid is impossibly clever.

They are so agonisingly, beautifully doomed.
I know... I really like Angel/Cordy, partly because I think she 'got' him in a way that Buffy never really did (and there we go with the Spike parallels again!). Anyway I hope you do write something. There's not all that much Angel/Cordy out there I don't think.

(Oh - and this icon is Angel/Cordy, isn't it?)

I've just watched, and wow - that really is ingenious cutting. And there's so much motion and colour, it's beautiful. Sigh, what might have been :)

really like Angel/Cordy, partly because I think she 'got' him in a way that Buffy never really did (and there we go with the Spike parallels again!)

Heh, oh yes. The thing is I'd been itching to write something noir-ish, so I wanted to set it in S1 or early S2, but they have such a different vibe between them then, it's very loving and supportive but not in the least bit romantic. So that's out. And then in S3 when it finally dawns on them, the most infuriating things come between them - last night for 'research' I watched 'Offspring,' in which Darla turns up eight months pregnant just when Angel's about to do the more-than-friends speech; and 'Waiting in the Wings' when bloody Groo turns up. Grrrrrr. And that's before you even get to the he's-sunk-to-the-bottom-of-the-ocean, she's-sucked-up-to-a-higher-plane-of-being school of keeping two starcrossed lovers apart!

Sigh. I know Joss reckoned nobody would pay to see 'Othello and Desdemona live happily ever after', but couldn't he ever have cut his characters the tiniest little break? Sigh. That curse of Angel's is really terribly inconvenient.

(Oh - and this icon is Angel/Cordy, isn't it?)

Yes. Squee, someone took that one! I quite liked it. I think they're very pretty together :)

wow - that really is ingenious cutting
Isn't it just? I have zero technical skills, but having seen a good few vids I know when I'm in the presence of a master!

couldn't he ever have cut his characters the tiniest little break? Sigh.
Sigh indeed. Although I guess that's what fanfiction is for. (And btw have you ever read Ships that pass into type? Buffy and Angel characters reading fanfic - hilarious!)

And I love that icon! I'm so glad they got a kiss! :)

Yeah, I saw that vid a while back and there's just certain shots that are GUH. It's really incredible editting/vidmaking.

I didn't watch the Spike/Cordy vid, 'cause well... I like my Spike with Buffy, but-- GAH! I went to the site, and there was this Wes/Angel(us) video. Gah, break out the formal wear for I WILL MARRY THIS VIDEO! So, so, so hot. So! Especially the end.

*lusts*

:)

there's just certain shots that are GUH.
Definitely. I'm in awe of all vidmakers!

I like my Spike with Buffy, but
So do I and nothing will ever change that - but you really should watch the vid! ::nods::

And I've not had time to check out all the other vids yet. Will have a look at the one you linked though. Esp. after such gushing endorsement! ;)

astartexx is a very talented vidder. Although I have some narrative issues with the vid, it's so visually stunning that I don't really care. Heh.

I think the issue with Buffy is Buffy, not Riley. Her cookie-dough speech was dead on for her, and she wasn't ready for anybody. She needs many years on her own, away from serious relationships and Slayer responsibilities, to figure who she is as a person, not as a Slayer.

But then she ends up with Spike. La la la la!

Wow! What an amazing vid. The editing was incredible and the look of it stunning. Thanks for the rec.

DW is fundamentally shippy. It's written as a shippy show.

Well, no, not really, or at least it never was in the old days (adopts aged cackle), in fact it was the very opposite of a shippy show. I got the impression that Russell T. Davies was playing with the shippiness to see how far he could go with it, but I'll be quite surprised if there's such a shippy vibe between Rose and Ten.

I have some narrative issues with the vid
I'm so glad you mentioned that - I thought I was just being stupid. But I don't really care either. I'm happy just watching the pretty. :)

But then she ends up with Spike. La la la la!
Of course! (Also see icon). But yes - I think you're absolutely right. Anyone who'd been through what she has, would need a long time to 'recover' and it wasn't like the Council offered her any therapy. Poor Buffy...

I love rec'ing stuff - I really ought to get myself a pimp icon.

at least it never was in the old days
I should have made it clear that I only meant the most recent series. Sadly I've never seen any of the old ones [/deprived].

I got the impression that Russell T. Davies was playing with the shippiness to see how far he could go with it
I think you're right - and it's another relationship that could never work practically. Not that I think Rose will settle down with Mickey and have lots of babies, but Rose/Doctor is as doomed as Buffy/Angel.

but you really should watch the vid! ::nods::

Nuh! Too stubborn :P

Will have a look at the one you linked though. Esp. after such gushing endorsement! ;)

Hee! Oh, it was nice. Wes and Angel, gah. Such a kink. And I know you're not big on the slash, but... it worked. The cuts were all, "Wes and Angel are so having sweaty, hot man-sex!" Yeah, it was great :)

The cuts were all, "Wes and Angel are so having sweaty, hot man-sex!" Yeah, it was great :)
Hee! You weren't kidding! And it's funny, but there are some ships that just don't work for me at all, and others where I can say - "Yeah, I could see that!" And Angel/Wes is one of them. (have you watched

sdwolfpup's Wes/Angel vid, If I had it all? Very sad, but very, very good. Although not much with the naughty I'm afraid.

You know how I feel about Spike and his ship(s) (Spuffy forevah OMG!!!!111!! - ahem...) but I'm downloading the vid anyway. I adore sdfolpup's vids and have to agree that if she's rec'ing something, it has to have some teeth to it.

May I say how excited I am that I can talk about both DW and BtVS/Spuffy coherently now!? Yea! Unfortunately, all I can really come up with is a resounding "Yeah, I totally agree." Must work on my commenting skillz.

Oh, crap! You beat me to it! This vid I've been wanting to rec for months but just hadn't gotten to it. Well, guess, snooze, loose.

It is an absolutely AMAZING vid. I showed it to my sister and she didn't believe me when I told her there had only ever been two episodes of tv that they both appeared on at the same time. Just a masterpiece.

I would also recommend her Lorne vid, as well as her Wes/Cordy and Angel/Cordy vids...

Spuffy forevah OMG!!!!111!! - ahem...
You and me both! ;)
But the vid is truly amazing, so just this once...

Yeah, I totally agree
Well, that happens to me very often. And at the moment I'm just surprised that I managed to be cohorent at all!

there had only ever been two episodes of tv that they both appeared on at the same time
Did they never meet properly on BtVS? They must have, because he recognises her in 'In The Dark'... ::tries to make brain work::

But yes, amazing vid and I really must get round to watching the rest of her vids. Maybe tomorrow...

To be honest, that's not the reason I liked the Doctor Who finale, where I didn't like the one from Buffy.
To me the main part of liking the finale of Doctor Who is that for the most part, it made sense, it followed previously laid out continuity and all the characters were likeable. Minor chars got to have heroic moments, every main char showed a sign of growth from the moment they'd come on the show to their last scene. It wasn't just a set of 'iconic moments', like Joss himself described Chosen to have. Parting of the ways, most of all was a story, a great story about great characters. It finished a great season on a good note and left me with positive feelings about every single one of the characters in it.

Chosen on the other hand wasn't a story, it was a set of moments that Joss felt he had to put in, that were barely strung together. Half of the characters were people I'd lost any and all liking or even tollerance for. At the end of Chosen, there are just about two characters on Buffy that I still liked, and one of them died. (though he was luckily ressurected on Angel)

I didn't need a shippy ending, what I needed was for the characters to show signs of growth, signs of redeemability, signs that they were better people now than at the start of their journey. With Buffy, the only characters I truly had that feeling with at the end of Chosen, were Spike, Anya and Tara, and guess what, all three of those were death while the scoobs were cracking jokes at their graves.

I'm sorry to say this, but since the end of Chosen I haven't been able to read fanfic for the scoobs sake. I just don't like them no more. I can grow to like them in a Spike centric story, if the writers does them decently enough to make them likeable. But I no longer like the actual chars on screen. And Chosen is for a huge part responsible for that.

Buffy is that very few people can see her happily settled with Mr. Ordinary.

I've never understood why people would think that. A part of me thinks that it's because Spike and Angel are vampires and they like them that way, so Buffy should just get over her childish/selfish belief that she could/would/should have a 'normal' life and, for lack of better term, settle for Spike or Angel. Me though, I want Buffy and Spike together because they love each other, not because Buffy has had to give up on everything else.

There is really no reason that Buffy can't have a normal life with a normal man and be perfectly happy. Spike says that Buffy needs a monster in her man, but that doesn't make it true. In fact, I think his belief in that is what put alot of the obstacles there in S6. Contrary to fanon and as much as I dislike B/R, Buffy was satisfied sexually with him and she never 'broke' him. Or Parker or human Angel for that matter. So Buffy with human Spike? Yeah, that works fine with me.

Personally I really liked 'Chosen' and never had a problem with it. I can see where you're coming from though and respect your opinions. But I'm too tired for a discussion or anything remotely like that. Hope you don't mind.

(Although I found Spike's arch very satisfying. Devastating at the time, since I didn't know he was being resurrected, but powerful nevertheless.)

So Buffy with human Spike? Yeah, that works fine with me.
Me too! :) Have you read

jenjojen's post-NFA Spuffy story Falling Debris? If not, do so now!

On Buffy however that was never the case - Buffy was always about the individual character's journey.

This is very true and I personally DID enjoy the end of Buffy, both as a lover of Spike and Buffy as individuals as well as a couple. However, try selling that to other fans and you won't win. To them it was about the 'ship and not really the journey and that is ultimately why they were so unsatisfied. I can understand that frame of mind, but i certainly don't agree.

have you ever read Ships that pass into type

That was funny. Thanks for mentioning it, and you're right, that's a fantastically done video.

I forgot to finish my post above. I totally agree about Wash and Zoe as well as human Spike. Most people seem really resistant to that sort of ending though.

That fic is one of my alltime favourites! And I'm glad you saw this post - I have to admit I was thinking of you when I rec'd the vid! :)

I totally agree about Wash and Zoe as well as human Spike.
Hurrah! And it's odd that people don't like it, since Zoe/Wash are so adored. Ah well.

I'm so glad you saw this post - because I know you feel like I do and it's so nice. ::hugs::

I guess we will just have to sit in our happy little corner togther! :)

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I don't ship Spike/Cordelia, but...

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