Spike #1. Review thing.

[elisi]

So, new Spike comic and what do you know? I have meta! :) It’s been a while, so let’s see how I do? *flexes Buffy meta muscles* Oh yeah, like writing a bike! I’m going to do this with lots of subheadings, so people can pick and choose what part they want to read. Although there is some s8 snark scattered throughout. Sorry. I have issues.

Why I like Lynch’s Spike
First of all, then yes, Lynch can be a jerk. Secondly - I don’t care. Lots of writers are jerks. Should he stay away from fandom? You betcha. But hey, that’s his funeral.

Anyway, I’m presuming that there are *other* reasons for people to dislike his Spike. I was thinking about this, and why I think he’s great. Partly it’s because I like Spike, full stop. Like my icon says, I like all the different Spikes - good, evil, loving Buffy or Angel, I adore him. As for Lynch’s specific Spike, then that taps into something that pre-dates the comics. I wrote a post (more a rant really, inspired by various things) a long time ago about Why didn’t Spike go to Buffy? (avrelia also has a brilliant, and much more measured, post here). My conclusion was that ‘He cares more about being a hero than getting Buffy.’ This is hugely simplified, of course (and made a lot of my fellow Spuffies very sad), but I was fed up of everyone thinking that he was staying away because he thought that Buffy didn’t love him (rather, than, say because he wanted to leave her free to do what she wanted). Although, looking at s8, I can now certainly see the justification of that mindset. s8!Spuffy is reminding me mostly of Martha/Doctor: You know, she likes him, is grateful that he saved the world and all that, trusts him and so on and on, but just doesn’t love him like *that*. (Don’t get me wrong, s8!Spike is lovely. But s8!Buffy is a million miles away from *my* Buffy, and with the glow thing on top I don't feel I have even the most tenuous grasp on her. The banter is spot-on though, and I can see why people enjoy it.)

Anyway, I like Lynch’s Spike because he’s his own man, secure in himself and who and what he is, someone not always trailing after others (Buffy, Angel) but striking out for himself and saving the day, just because he can. Also, he makes friends with people, and if there’s one thing I want Spike to have it’s friends who are all his.

I think Spike loves Buffy and vice versa. I think they’d be very happy together (when they’re not throwing furniture at each other). I also think that Spike loves Angel (and vice versa). I think (ultimately) he stayed with Angel because he knew Angel needed him more [than Buffy did]. They bicker endlessly, whilst always having each other’s back. This is how Lynch writes them, and it’s exactly how I write them too. So yeah, no problems.


Why I think that ‘evolution’ page is awesome
Apparently people don’t like it. It’s one of those cases where I find myself baffled, because it strikes me as so obvious that it’s hard to find the right words to use. So, I figured I’d let the picture itself do the talking, just with a couple of captions added:



We’ve seen this conflict/difference between them since the beginning - the ‘artist’ versus the one who thought it was all just a party. Now they’re all souled up, the dynamic stays - Angel (so often morally compromised by circumstance) is the one who thinks carefully about how and why. See him talking to Jasmine about world peace vs. free will. Angel is the one who had a soul, and then a destiny, forced on him - the one who doesn’t have choice, and because of that thinks about things a lot more carefully - and chooses to fight. Spike OTOH is the one bending the rules, the wild card, the Bad Boy of champions. Notice how he describes Angel - dull, coma-inducing, boring... It’s tearing Angel down even as he builds him up, equating nobility with someone overly politically correct who takes everything (himself included) way too seriously. Spike puts himself in contrast to this - he’s cool, laid-back, easygoing - big damn hero, yes, but not one for the big speeches or over-thinking things.

Let me borrow an example from C.S.Lewis’s ‘The Horse and His Boy’. (Background story: A king has twin sons. One is kidnapped as an infant. After many adventures the day is saved, and the one who was kidnapped - Cor - discovers that because he is the eldest, he - not his brother Corin - will one day become king):

“Oh dear,” said Cor. “I don’t want to at all. And Corin - I am most dreadfully sorry. I never dreamed my turning up was going to chisel you out of your kingdom.”
“Hurrah! Hurrah!” said Corin. “I shan’t have to be King. I shan’t have to be King. I’ll always be a prince. It’s princes have all the fun.”
“And it’s truer than thy brother knows, Cor,” said King Lune. “For this is what it means to be a king: to be the first in every desperate attack and last in every desperate retreat, and when there’s hunger in the land (as must be now and then in bad years) to wear finer clothes and laugh louder over a scantier meal than any man in your land.”

Spike is more than happy to let Angel be King. ‘Cause he is smart enough to know that the princes have all the fun.

(Plus there’s a hundred-plus years of issues between them, with Angel as father-figure, brother, destroyer etc. etc. But I’m not bothering going down that avenue now.)

Thoughts on the issue itself
I’ve heard that there are people who think this issue... slow? Time wasting? Well allow me to disagree:

- We get all of Spike’s story, from siring and right up to the present day.

- We are introduced to the plot (Vegas is full of badness!), and it’s revealed who’s pulling the strings (at least some of them, I’m sure there’s a twist).

- We are introduced to canon characters and see how Spike gets on with them, and meet his new friends (complete with enough background story to fill in anyone unfamiliar with previous instalments).

- We see Spike arrive in Vegas and tackle his first problem, introducing him to the Big Bad.

- Plus, we get a couple of pages worth of Twilight-mockage. (Mocking Twilight is always a good thing in my world!)

Not bad for a first issue. Beginnings are delicate things, and I appreciate that all the background has been filled in. I know where Spike (and everyone else) is at, and that’s pretty helpful when I’m reading a story about him!

Anyway, onto more specific things...

Vegas thing looks fun (and horrible, of course). I wonder how it’ll all end up with a [pan dimensional] steam punk ship.

Background story is brilliantly done. And 'Alone together now' is making me green with writerly envy. Plus, Angelus in the background of Spike’s siring? Oh yeah.

(I’ll deal with the Twilight thing separately.)

Spike/Angel snarky banter! *profound love* And Illyria!!! This exchange made me laugh out loud in delight:

Angel: Illyria, watch the civilians.
Illyria: I am. They’re weeping. It’s repulsive.

Then, the getting-the-band-back-together. OK, so the fact that Beck is now dressed as a girl in a comic book is less than yay worthy, but hey - she *is* a girl in a comic book, and Lynch & Urru make no claims about being feminist in any way. What I *do* like is Spike’s 'I’m on a mission, love. The dark forces are stepping up and I want someone who will have my back. Beck can handle herself in a fight and she takes direction. There’s no romantic intentions here.' Beck’s in the story because she’s a good fighter, and a good friend, and I sincerely doubt she’ll ever be shown as a love interest. *crosses fingers* (She hero-worships Spike rather, but I think she got over that in Shadow Puppets. So I’m optimistic.) Plus, she’s just adorably excited to be in Vegas. ♥

And Betta George! \o/ Everything’s better with him around. Plus, he brings up Connor. LOOK PEOPLE HE EXISTS! (Calling him ‘Teen Angel’ made me smile.) Damn I hope this comic gets the blessing of the PTB and becomes ‘canon’ since that means Angel’s greatest love hasn’t been consigned to the ret-con dustbin.

’Everyone else sees the flying Elvises, er... Elvisii? Elvees?’ *cheers for language joke* (’Is this a Cirque thing?’ Heh.) Also, Spike is smart and figures out what to do immediately. Which leads to the wonderful end panel of him deciding to just lie down for a minute (hey, his shoulder’s out of socket, I’m not blaming him!) - but still trying to maintain his cool. :)

Dru, of course, is a wonderful surprise (and mmmmm, those pages are just luscious!), although who is her beau? He reminds me of the werewolf from Asylum, but that could be coincidence. And why does Spike have his soul? Anyway, I can’t wait to see what happens when Spike and Dru meet again!

All in all - good set-up, nice mystery, and my boy Spike set for lots of heroics! I’m on board and eagerly awaiting next month.


The Twilight Thing
So, here’s the part where I am ALWAYS up for a Twilight joke. It might be stupid, but never as stupid the books themselves. And I rather love the idea of them being written by Spider, rewriting her somewhat one-sided (and problematic) thing with Spike into a Twu Wuv yarn (It's called TWINKLE! This keeps making me chuckle. Told you I was easy...) Plus 'Now there’s a teen wolf thrown into the mix for no apparent reason' is so RIDICULOUSLY accurate that it’s almost painful. (Although if Dru's lover IS a werewolf, then it's v. nice foreshadowing.) To jump sideways then I find s8’s ‘Twilight’ cover with Spike as Jacob far more insulting - because Jacob really is pointless. He’s the guy who has NO CHANCE IN HELL, and is only thrown into the mix to create artificial tension. Thanks Joss, we didn’t need that. (Going further, then does that mean that Spike is destined to fall in love with and marry Queen Twilight?)

Anyway, if we go with the ‘canon’ thing, then both the Twinkle craze and the movie about Angel (and girl!Spike) in Hell-A go much further than anything in s8 to show why vampires have become so popular. Imagine for a minute that the Twi-hards found out that their darling Eddykins was real... they’d totally fight tooth and nail for him and his kind. Plus, with hero!Angel saving LA from the hordes of hell (based on a true story!), the public has plenty of positive role models to project their feelings onto. I’m sure Twilight (the organisation) happily exploited this. (Thank you Mr Lynch for filling in some plot holes - feel like explaining why Buffy lost her mind and started robbing banks? Can't be done? Ah well, it was worth a try.)

Nostalgia and bitterness. s8 lovers should probably stay away - I don’t want to harsh your squee
Reading this issue was actually a bittersweet experience. Because for a few pages I had my show back - it was Illyria and Angel and Spike, fighting and bickering and being so completely themselves that it made me miss my show more than I have for a long, long time. And I remember that they cancelled it, that we could have had more, that we’ll never ever get them back, and it’s painful. My beautiful, beautiful show.

And the thing is - s8 doesn’t inspire those kinds of feelings. At all. Everyone is OOC and badly drawn and the story makes no sense and they destroyed my Angel. Seeing him here - rigidly moral, a little petty, and just... Angel - it suddenly brought home again the *immense* damage done to him in s8. It’s so vast that I can’t really grasp it. And I don’t think I can ever forgive Joss.

So yes, I’m bitter. I didn’t think I had it in me to have any feelings about s8 anymore (my feelings went from bemusement through frustration to disgust and then ended up in mocking indifference) - but apparently I can still be bitter. I wrote Buffy & co. off as a lost cause years ago, but I had hoped that Angel and Spike could stay unsullied. How wrong I was. Spike is still himself (miraculously), but I want him to do his thing and then run far far away from the train wreck again as fast as his undead legs can carry him.

So yeah, I’m clinging to this comic, partly because it's set BEFORE everything goes to hell Twilight. I didn't want to end on such a downer, but... *deep sigh* I think I'll watch some Angel tonight. Maybe 'Damage'. And I'll raise my glass to both my souled vampire Champions.


Oh! I forgot to talk about the 'aerial sex' joke. As people have noted it comes out of nowhere, doesn't fit with anything and is pretty pointless. Much like the aerial sex itself then.

Also RL is actually pretty busy at the moment, plus it's my birthday tomorrow, so I might be a little slow in replying to comments. But I always get there in the end.

Comments

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Early happy birthday wishes! Big plans with the family? I hope tomorrow's a wonderful day for you! :D



Why I Think The Evolution Page Could've Been Awesome

Take out the "noble" mess, leave Spike thinking he's a chaotic eight and a half, then have Spike snarking that Angel is an astronaut who's evolution has crippled him because he's lost touch with the primal power that fuels this world, that Angel has deluded himself into believing he's evolved into a noble creature.

The problem with that page is that it's framed by Lynch's view that Angel is a straight-up white hat and this improperly forms Spike's POV of Angel. Spike wants to be a caveman, in touch with his primal forces, while Angel wants to be an astronaut. But Spike will look at Angel and see a guy who'll commit atrocities for the greater good and pretend he's somehow less barbaric than the caveman who came before simply because he's wearing gloves so the blood doesn't stain his hands. When Spike looks at Angel, he still sees the barbaric inside him. He always has. So for Spike to entertain the idea that Angel is the noblest of the noble reveals the writer not grasping how dark Angel is as a character and that skews Spike's characterization regarding Angel the same way it would if a writer didn't understand Buffy's darkness when writing BtVS Season 6.

That's what I think is the problem with the evolution page. It implies that this is a straight evolution from barbaric evil to noble good with the barbaric evil of Turokhan at the lowest end and the "noble" goodness of Angel coming out on top. Then you have Spike as a chaotic eight and a half, as if chaos were in conflict with nobility and good, when in fact Spike's special brand of chaos is incredibly good. Spike as chaos figure leads to him helping Buffy save the world in Becoming. Order =! good. Chaos =! evil.

I think that page comes close to being incredibly interesting but then flubs the landing/completely misses the point because of oversimplification. Which is really my problem with Lynch's writing. He comes so close to grasping and expressing the complexity of this 'verse, but then falls short. It's because he so nearly walks the walk and talks the talk that his inability to deliver leaves me so vastly disappointed. Like watching your favorite team nearly score a goal only to miss by an inch. Your hopes are high, your team almost won, but then it's all for naught and what's left to do but jeer and curse 'cause he was so close.

As for the Twilight mockery and the flashback pages, I was hoping for originality. Things I already know like the back of my hand: 1) Spike's life on BtVS and 2) Twilight Sucks. I spent the first half of the issue going Oh Pretteh Pictures About Stuff I Already Know and Jokes That Have Been Told Better For Over Two Years Now.

I hope now that the flashbacks are out of the way, now that Spider has been put to rest, now that the Twilight joke's been done and now that Angel is left behind in LA (so Lynch's oversimplified view of this tragic figure won't muck with the story), all the distractions have been worked out of Lynch's system and he can get back to doing what he does best: Spike. I love Spike: Asylum and Spike: After the Fall. I'd like more of those now.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Take out the "noble" mess, leave Spike thinking he's a chaotic eight and a half, then have Spike snarking that Angel is an astronaut who's evolution has crippled him because he's lost touch with the primal power that fuels this world, that Angel has deluded himself into believing he's evolved into a noble creature.

Does it need to be that explicit? He said Angel was coma-inducing boring, which is basically that Angel sees the world as simplified, good/bad it must fit in one category or the other...which is somewhat true of Angel.

The thing is, I think, Spike's feelings regarding Angel are complicated. I don't think Spike is all that judgemental of people. He can be cynical about people and he can be incredibly pragmatic on occasions, but one of the things I love about Spike is that he doesn't set himself up as judge. He snarks. He doesn't judge. Angel judges. Angel likes to make moral pronoucements and judgements so as to both reassure himself and to feel entitled. Spike doesn't feel entitled. Spike doesn't feel like he has a soap box to stand on. He'll mock. He likes to mock. But for as angry as Spike is with Angel, as competitive as Spike can be (at times) with Angel, as ridiculous as Spike sometimes feels that Angel is, Spike also has some compassion for him. Spike and Angel share a fair bit of common ground (and loads of history). Spike is aware of Angel's losses (Cordy, Wesley, Fred...). Spike will gladly mock the hell out of Angel, though. That's his pleasure.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

So noble it's coma-inducing implies that Angel's type of good is safe and boring when in reality it's anything but safe. Angel's brand of Big Picture good can be just as horrifying when he loses his way. And I think this is portrayal of noble good becomes problematic when it merely reinforces the simplified good Angel that the IDW books continually depict. Just like Maggie says above, in Season 8 Angel is all his bad traits while in IDW's books he's all his good traits and not even a memory of the evil.

So yeah, I think it does need to be stated explicitly because there's no evidence to support the more complex nature of Angel's character in the comics.

The thing is, I think, Spike's feelings regarding Angel are complicated. I don't think Spike is all that judgemental of people. He can be cynical about people and he can be incredibly pragmatic on occasions, but one of the things I love about Spike is that he doesn't set himself up as judge. He snarks. He doesn't judge. Angel judges. Angel likes to make moral pronoucements and judgements so as to both reassure himself and to feel entitled. Spike doesn't feel entitled. Spike doesn't feel like he has a soap box to stand on. He'll mock. He likes to mock. But for as angry as Spike is with Angel, as competitive as Spike can be (at times) with Angel, as ridiculous as Spike sometimes feels that Angel is, Spike also has some compassion for him. Spike and Angel share a fair bit of common ground (and loads of history). Spike is aware of Angel's losses (Cordy, Wesley, Fred...). Spike will gladly mock the hell out of Angel, though. That's his pleasure.

I think Spike judges in the sense that he perceives who Angel really is. The distinction I'd draw between the two is that both Spike and Angel judge others for their faults, but it's Angel who condemns.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

But that's asking Spike to pass a summary judgement on Angel, and I don't think we often do that with people in our lives. Nor do I think Spike is predisposed to make summary judgements on people. He snarks about them, and on a personality level, I think he has a pretty good read that Angel is someone who insists on things being black and white. Angel is not comfortable with ambiguities. That's not where Angel lives. When he's in 'good' mode, he's a morality judge. 'Things should be this way. And I'll decide.' Being a moral 10 isn't a great thing. It pretty much is morality police asshattery, which Angel can slip into often. When Angel is in 'good' mode, he goes into ethical police mode. He sets himself as arbiter of what is good and what is not. So Spike pokes fun at that 'morality'.

Spike isn't going to do a dissertation on whether Angel is flawed. He knows Angel is an asshat. He knows Angel can go evil. He also knows that Angel likes to make it black and white. Either Angel is trying to be a 10 or a -2. There's really never a time when Angel tries to be in-between. And at this particular stage of the game, Angel is in his judgey 10 mode.


I think it's just perhaps a different way of looking at things. I don't think Spike carries the past with him all the time, so he isn't retroactively examining Angel's mistakes now or projecting what Angel will do in the future. He just knows that when Angel is in 10 mode he can be a prig.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

But that's asking Spike to pass a summary judgement on Angel

If Spike doesn't pass a summary judgment on anyone, then the entire evolutionary chart is out of character for Spike.

Being a moral 10 is a good thing though. That's what doesn't make sense. Mother Theresa or Gandhi = moral 10's. Angel? Doesn't even come close. Actually being a moral 10 might be so noble it's coma inducing because I can imagine Spike looking at Gandhi and thinking "god your life is boring and I'm so glad I'm not you."

But Angel? There's no way I think Spike has confused Angel with Gandhi.

Simply put, Angel when he's being high on his moral horse isn't boring and coma-inducing--it's annoying and aggravating and makes Spike want to hit things, namely Angel.

I don't read "so noble it's coma-inducing" as Spike saying 'Angel is a judgy wudgy bear who spoils my fun'. Saying Angel's that noble doesn't equate to Angel's an asshat, imo.

He just knows that when Angel is in 10 mode he can be a prig.

Sure, Angel can be a prig. I don't think Spike ever mistakes that for Angel actually being noble, though. I think Spike always sees through Angel and knows that even in his most asshat moments, Angel's trying to run from his evil self and overdoing it by trying to be ubermoral and judgmental. Spike wouldn't call Angel noble because he always sees the selfish and human motives behind what Angel does--how Angel can't stand to look at Spike because he sees the monster in himself.

I think Spike is too good at words to actually think Angel being a judgmental prig = moral. Tara is a moral 10. Angel's just a prig who lords it over people like he's a moral 10, but in the act of lording it over others, he reveals how he's not worthy of the title because truly noble people don't act that way. I think Spike's too perceptive to misjudge both the meaning of nobility and how it applies to Angel's character.

[elisi]

Early happy birthday wishes! Big plans with the family? I hope tomorrow's a wonderful day for you! :D
Aw, thank you! No big plans, but we're going round to my in-laws tomorrow night, and the girls are going to sleep over so Darcy & I can go out (or whatever) and then have a morning of BLISSFUL PEACE!

I spent the first half of the issue going Oh Pretteh Pictures About Stuff I Already Know and Jokes That Have Been Told Better For Over Two Years Now.
Well The Pretteh Pictures make up for A LOT, and I appreciate that Lynch bothers to bring people up to date. And, like I said, the Twilight stuff actually REALLY helps s8. (I don't think that was his intention btw. But it's nice even so.)

I love Spike: Asylum and Spike: After the Fall. I'd like more of those now.
Well let's hope for the best, shall we?

As for the rest of your comment... Well, we disagree. Wildly. I disagree with your assessment of Angel, and your assessment of how Spike sees him. As it happens I am working on an Angel essay, so I won't discuss it all here. For now, I'll just quote the_royal_anna's review of 'Damage':

Monsters manifest monsters.

And this is it: the bleak, endless cycle Angel fights against. He is the victim that dares to be the champion. But is he driven by the blood in his heart or the blood on his hands?

I don't know that Angel acts to prove he's worth something. I think that Angel acts to prove he's worth nothing. He acts to prove that actions are worth something; that even a monster is capable of good acts.

But what Angel will never let himself believe is that monster is as monster does. This is no numbers game. He can't outweigh acts of evil with acts of good, can't reset the balance on some great universal scale.

Or, there's this, most of which was written by Anna, and it says so much about how I see Angel. Because I do think he's noble. And I think he's so like Buffy that it hurts. (Which is also why they don't work.)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Oooh a night without the kids! And a morning of BLISSFUL PEACE. Sounds perfect! :)


I agree, Angel is so very like Buffy. Up to a point. Buffy would never lock up a group of evil humans in a wine cellar to let them be murdered by vampires, not even during her darkest period when she was so full of despair she wanted to die. Where Buffy and Angel share dark methods and Big Picture mentality, Buffy's is like a shallow lake to Angel's vast neverending ocean. Buffy never dove so deep into that darkness the way Angel has. Nor has Buffy ever done what Angel did in Season 5--coldly executed humans by his own hands. Where Buffy believes murdering humans is beyond her authority (even Warren who I frankly cheered when he died because I think he's scum) Angel takes it upon himself to lock wine cellar doors, snap necks and pull triggers. Angel chooses the path of murder even when he has other options (Lindsey's murder was unnecessary--how would the audience feel if it had been Lilah? Imagining the gender politics of Angel murdering a woman because he thinks she's beyond redemption just blows my mind.)

There is nobility in Angel, but there is also a cold and calculating darkness. He is quite simply one of the most brutally ruthless characters in the 'verse who's on the side of good (with Wes and Giles). He goes to such extreme lengths because he thinks he's damned, so he might as well bloody his hands for the greater good. Where Angel had hope for a better world by leading by heroic example at the beginning of Season 4, he's torn down by Jasmine and W&H until he's given up hope for a victory that leaves him honorable.

I can't watch Conviction, Power Play or Not Fade Away without witnessing firsthand this darkness in Angel. The closest Buffy comes to Angel's level is when she goes after Faith in Season 3 (a crime of revenge and of passion) and Anya in Selfless (an act of conflicted duty and frankly, any Slayer worth her salt should've gone after Anya at this point) and even those pale in comparison. The manipulation that leads to Drogyn's murder, a warrior for the side of good, Angel not only pulls the trigger, but he hands the Circle the victim and the gun. What if it had been Fred? What if the Circle had taken Fred and demanded Angel murder Fred in front of them? What if it had been Wesley? What if it was Faith? What if they'd taken a warrior of good, Faith, and demanded that Angel murder her to prove he was truly committed to the Circle?

I think the fact that we the audience don't care so much about Drogyn lessens the impact of Angel's crime. It's horrifying what he does. I've read defenses where Angel gets let off because if he hadn't killed Drogyn, they both would've died. And I think would this argument still be put forth if it was Faith who Angel murdered? In what world does this qualify as noble? Because if Angel counts as noble on to the upmost degree, then... well, I'm without words. There's simply no way that I can watch the unease of Spike as he discovers what Angel has done to Drogyn at the end of Season 5 and ever think that Spike would look at Angel as "so noble it's coma-inducing."

ANGEL is still one of my favorite shows of all time and I don't watch for the supporting characters the way many other fans do. I watch it for Angel. I actually enjoy Angel's character. He's the reason I watch the show. But the nobility I see in Epiphany, the dorkishness I see when he's acting goofy around Cordelia, the insight and compassion he shows for lost human beings like Lindsey in the early seasons... that is pretty much engulfed in hopelessness and despair by Season 5.

[elisi]

Hmm. It's getting late, so just a couple of points.

Buffy never reaches Angel's level, true, plus she's not a vampire. [This is where I point towards my as-yet unwritten Angel essay which will hopefully delve into his complexity in much greater depth.]

But. She has the capacity. She just gets lucky, and Angel doesn't.

1. She deliberately goes out to murder Faith. That Faith doesn't die is not for Buffy's lack of trying. True, she wants to save Angel from dying (all very noble, isn't it?), but heck, he's a centuries old vampire with the blood of thousands on his hands. Is he really worth saving, or is it just that Buffy decides that she needs to save him?

2. She's ready to sacrifice the world rather than let Dawn die. At the last minute she finds a way out, and sacrifices herself instead. Angel never finds a way out, and sacrifices the world (or at least his friends, and his own redemption) to save his son. If the world had gone to hell, and Buffy had known it was all her fault, do you think she would be any less brutal than Angel is in S5?

I know, you can't make direct comparisons. And I do think Angel in S5 is extremely ruthless, and yes, it's uncomfortable. But I love it. It's utterly unflinching in showing us exactly the price Angel [and everyone around him] pays for his actions in 'Home'. Plus, all of this.

Spike would have followed Buffy into hell itself. He follows Angel just as willingly, because he understands him. And don't forget, Spike tortured the doctor (I forget his name) to get the info they needed. Spike - once he begins to understand Angel's situation - knows he got lucky.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

It is getting late on your end! I'll understand if you don't have time to reply. I imagine this conversation will be more for another day (like when you post your essay on Angel).

I think making this about Buffy kinda loses the focus of our original discussion (but yes, I agree that Angel's darkness is a byproduct of fighting to rise above his vampiric nature). All those points you list are times when Buffy is not noble. Frankly, I think noble is an inappropriate way to describe both Buffy and Angel. Do they have moments of nobility? Yes. Are they noble characters overall? Not always, no. They're tragic figures who make a lot of mistakes. They're always fighting to do the right thing, but they lose sight of that in the struggle.

My complaint is about the idea that Angel is the noblest of the noble. He's not. Neither is Buffy. And if I would disagree with calling Buffy noble (who I think is far less dark and done less horrible, compromising things than Angel), then I can't agree how Spike could mistake Angel for being the noblest of the noble. Spike is the character who questions the protagonist's privilege (his judgment of Buffy is that she's "one hell of a woman", emphasis on hell, not that she's "so noble it's coma-inducing"). He's there to question Angel's dominance and moral superiority. That's his function both on BtVS and AtS. He upsets the balance by showing a vampire can fight back for his soul, can willingly choose to not be evil. He challenges Buffy's mission as the Slayer (a vampire who can become good) and the framework of Angel's myth as a Champion.

Spike is the contrary sort who doesn't buy into the Angel's The Great Champion myth like everyone else because he knows the darkness inside Angel--it's the same darkness inside Spike.

It's not about Spike winning and being better, either. It's about these two souled vampires being in conflict with each other because they espouse two different philosophies. For Spike to concede that Angel is the nobler vampire is to concede that Big Picture/necessary evil is the way to save the world. And that's just beyond wrong. Chaos and personal ties are a part of the mix. There is no better here. They're supposed to be challenging each other and in challenging each other, in questioning each other, they hold themselves accountable, they hold themselves to higher standards. And in that debate, that is where you find the answers. Some days Order/Big Picture is the way to go, sometimes Chaos/Personal Ties is the way to go. Often times, the two spheres are both required. It is that battle of philosophy that Angel and Spike represent. For Spike to concede moral victory to Angel... well, it leeches away at their dynamic. Because Spike is always trying to become better, a better version of himself, and for him to concede Angel's better is like he's given up on his own evolution, like he's comfortable just the way he is and he's given up trying to move forward (and Spike is a character of constant change, for him to stop trying is for him to stop living).

Basically, I think the way Lynch frames Angel and Spike's dynamic leeches away at the power of their joint narrative. Like the conflict between them is too tense, so let's smooth all the edges and just have Spike accepting he's the inferior younger brother always in big brother's shadow and he has to run off to another city to find his own way. This from Spike who thrives on conflict with Angel? Who enjoys competing with him? Who'd rather fight his way to the top? Spike doesn't run away from Slayers or Angel. He doesn't slink off because he's so inferior to his big brother. Spike is defiance. He is chaos.

I just disagree so much with how Lynch frames Spike's POV. Spike who for an entire season accused Angel of selling his soul to W&H, saying Angel made a deal with the devil. Spike's not one to judge or condemn Angel because Spike makes a muck of things himself, but he's also not one to idealize Angel either.

Lynch writes Angel as if he was a straight-up hero and the moral compromise and questionable things Angel has done have been swept under the carpet. And the way Angel is framed has warped Spike's characterization in terms of how he relates to Angel.

[elisi]

Just quickly.

Yes, we've (or I, rather) have drifted off point. So, back to basics.

What does Spike do best? He loves.

And because he loves Angel he'll let Angel be #1, because he knows that Angel needs it more.

(I have lots of fic exploring this to back this up, except it's not written yet. *sigh*)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I thought I'd include a link to the most recent meta I wrote about Angel. If you're interested in reading, it'll help clarify how I see his character.

He's a character who has a mission for good, but who is prone to get lost in his despair and compromise his means in the hopes of achieving good ends. Doing evil to bring about good. Yet Angel's redemption is about saving souls, so when he makes it about murdering the enemy, we know he's lost his way. And considering how often Angel does lose his way, there's tragedy in that story, but that doesn't make him a noble man.

Noble men are often labeled as fools. A noble man would've let the Circle murder both Drogyn and himself. Angel is a man willing to do evil in the name of good, to embrace necessary evil to save the world. And there's an uncomfortable philosophical tension there--can one do good through murder? Through refusing to believe in the good in humanity? I've always felt that Angel murdering Lindsey was him renouncing his mission to save souls, the mission he began when he first came to LA. He'd finally given up hope for humanity and was going to go down, kamikaze-style, taking as many of the evildoers with him. In the end, he damns the entire city (as the comics show). Innocent souls damned to suffer through hell, some even die horribly, some survive to live as abused and tortured slaves, and when they freed because Angel sacrifices himself (knowing it will force W&H to undo this world and that he won't be allowed to really die), they are returned to life but must forever carry the memory of their hellish experiences.

There's a lot that is indeed noble about Angel, there's a lot to love about Angel, but he is also a character who gets very, very lost and does horrifying things. To call him noble is to ignore all the times he violates the very notion of nobility, faith and compassion. And Spike has witnessed Angel's ignoble acts firsthand, the times Angel does horrifying things even with a soul. I think Spike is too perceptive to deceive himself that Angel is the noblest of the noble. And if Spike were to think that, then I'd be very worried about Spike since Angel is not the best role model for moral virtue considering he's prone to despair and so often loses his way (that's why he's lost without Cordelia to guide him).

[elisi]

Hmm. I can see where you come from, but I see it from a different angle? (Not sure what the best phrasing is.) ETA: Sorry about the waffling and all the repetition. You're getting half an essay here, it's just very jumbled.

V. briefly: Angel's worst enemy is himself. He is always fighting against what he was, what he's capable of, and yet without that he'd not be anyone. It's a beautiful paradox (like pretty much everything to do with Angel). Spike is always himself. Angel is forever conflicted. I'll get back to this.

Angel [the show] is about family. And it all comes together in Connor - he is the centre around which everything pivots. (This is why I'm so furious that he's been dismissed from s8 - without Connor, Angel is hollow, rootless, and his story has no focal point.) Connor is, in so many ways, his redemption. And he ends up selling his soul - and those of all his friends - for the sake of his son. Gunn says that of course he knew that signing up with W&H (and his later deal with the doctor) would come with sacrifices, he just didn't think it'd be one of them. Angel, although he never says it, knows that of course it'll be them. (See 'Why We Fight' - it's the most exquisite piece foreshadowing/meta about the season.) Or, just look to Conviction:

ANGEL: We're gonna change things. We came to Wolfram and Hart because it's a powerful weapon, and we'll figure out how to wield it.
WESLEY: Or kill ourselves with it.

Over the course of S5 Angel comes to understand that the only way to wield that weapon will kill them. But it's either that, or stay a part of the machine. He can choose *one* battle, or none, but he can't go back to who he was. (Really Anna says it all SO MUCH BETTER here.)

I don't think Angel gives up on humanity. Re. Lindsey, then let me quote Anna (in her NFA post):

And it's a stark reminder that cometh the hour Angel isn't the hero he once wanted to be, the hero who can put the whole world to rights. Why doesn’t Lindsey get a chance? We know that he should, that Angel of all people should know that, but as I said last episode, this is about making the choices you have to make. And it's not so much about whether those choices are right or wrong, as it is about shouldering responsibility. Choosing because not to choose would be the worst choice you could make.

Two things stand out for me re. Angel in NFA: One, he sends Connor away, to the last protecting his son, and the redemption and humanity tied up in him. Two, the way he kills Hamilton, Angel and Angelus finally as one. (Told you I'd get back to it.)

Angel fights, because it's all he has left. It's that or sit outside waiting for the sunrise. Like Buffy once told him: 'Strong is fighting! It's hard, and it's painful, and it's every day. It's what we have to do. And we can do it together.'

Angel saves his son, and because of that can no longer be the hero he wants to be. That's his story. I don't have a problem with Spike seeing that as noble.