Spike #1. Review thing.

[elisi]

So, new Spike comic and what do you know? I have meta! :) It’s been a while, so let’s see how I do? *flexes Buffy meta muscles* Oh yeah, like writing a bike! I’m going to do this with lots of subheadings, so people can pick and choose what part they want to read. Although there is some s8 snark scattered throughout. Sorry. I have issues.

Why I like Lynch’s Spike
First of all, then yes, Lynch can be a jerk. Secondly - I don’t care. Lots of writers are jerks. Should he stay away from fandom? You betcha. But hey, that’s his funeral.

Anyway, I’m presuming that there are *other* reasons for people to dislike his Spike. I was thinking about this, and why I think he’s great. Partly it’s because I like Spike, full stop. Like my icon says, I like all the different Spikes - good, evil, loving Buffy or Angel, I adore him. As for Lynch’s specific Spike, then that taps into something that pre-dates the comics. I wrote a post (more a rant really, inspired by various things) a long time ago about Why didn’t Spike go to Buffy? (avrelia also has a brilliant, and much more measured, post here). My conclusion was that ‘He cares more about being a hero than getting Buffy.’ This is hugely simplified, of course (and made a lot of my fellow Spuffies very sad), but I was fed up of everyone thinking that he was staying away because he thought that Buffy didn’t love him (rather, than, say because he wanted to leave her free to do what she wanted). Although, looking at s8, I can now certainly see the justification of that mindset. s8!Spuffy is reminding me mostly of Martha/Doctor: You know, she likes him, is grateful that he saved the world and all that, trusts him and so on and on, but just doesn’t love him like *that*. (Don’t get me wrong, s8!Spike is lovely. But s8!Buffy is a million miles away from *my* Buffy, and with the glow thing on top I don't feel I have even the most tenuous grasp on her. The banter is spot-on though, and I can see why people enjoy it.)

Anyway, I like Lynch’s Spike because he’s his own man, secure in himself and who and what he is, someone not always trailing after others (Buffy, Angel) but striking out for himself and saving the day, just because he can. Also, he makes friends with people, and if there’s one thing I want Spike to have it’s friends who are all his.

I think Spike loves Buffy and vice versa. I think they’d be very happy together (when they’re not throwing furniture at each other). I also think that Spike loves Angel (and vice versa). I think (ultimately) he stayed with Angel because he knew Angel needed him more [than Buffy did]. They bicker endlessly, whilst always having each other’s back. This is how Lynch writes them, and it’s exactly how I write them too. So yeah, no problems.


Why I think that ‘evolution’ page is awesome
Apparently people don’t like it. It’s one of those cases where I find myself baffled, because it strikes me as so obvious that it’s hard to find the right words to use. So, I figured I’d let the picture itself do the talking, just with a couple of captions added:



We’ve seen this conflict/difference between them since the beginning - the ‘artist’ versus the one who thought it was all just a party. Now they’re all souled up, the dynamic stays - Angel (so often morally compromised by circumstance) is the one who thinks carefully about how and why. See him talking to Jasmine about world peace vs. free will. Angel is the one who had a soul, and then a destiny, forced on him - the one who doesn’t have choice, and because of that thinks about things a lot more carefully - and chooses to fight. Spike OTOH is the one bending the rules, the wild card, the Bad Boy of champions. Notice how he describes Angel - dull, coma-inducing, boring... It’s tearing Angel down even as he builds him up, equating nobility with someone overly politically correct who takes everything (himself included) way too seriously. Spike puts himself in contrast to this - he’s cool, laid-back, easygoing - big damn hero, yes, but not one for the big speeches or over-thinking things.

Let me borrow an example from C.S.Lewis’s ‘The Horse and His Boy’. (Background story: A king has twin sons. One is kidnapped as an infant. After many adventures the day is saved, and the one who was kidnapped - Cor - discovers that because he is the eldest, he - not his brother Corin - will one day become king):

“Oh dear,” said Cor. “I don’t want to at all. And Corin - I am most dreadfully sorry. I never dreamed my turning up was going to chisel you out of your kingdom.”
“Hurrah! Hurrah!” said Corin. “I shan’t have to be King. I shan’t have to be King. I’ll always be a prince. It’s princes have all the fun.”
“And it’s truer than thy brother knows, Cor,” said King Lune. “For this is what it means to be a king: to be the first in every desperate attack and last in every desperate retreat, and when there’s hunger in the land (as must be now and then in bad years) to wear finer clothes and laugh louder over a scantier meal than any man in your land.”

Spike is more than happy to let Angel be King. ‘Cause he is smart enough to know that the princes have all the fun.

(Plus there’s a hundred-plus years of issues between them, with Angel as father-figure, brother, destroyer etc. etc. But I’m not bothering going down that avenue now.)

Thoughts on the issue itself
I’ve heard that there are people who think this issue... slow? Time wasting? Well allow me to disagree:

- We get all of Spike’s story, from siring and right up to the present day.

- We are introduced to the plot (Vegas is full of badness!), and it’s revealed who’s pulling the strings (at least some of them, I’m sure there’s a twist).

- We are introduced to canon characters and see how Spike gets on with them, and meet his new friends (complete with enough background story to fill in anyone unfamiliar with previous instalments).

- We see Spike arrive in Vegas and tackle his first problem, introducing him to the Big Bad.

- Plus, we get a couple of pages worth of Twilight-mockage. (Mocking Twilight is always a good thing in my world!)

Not bad for a first issue. Beginnings are delicate things, and I appreciate that all the background has been filled in. I know where Spike (and everyone else) is at, and that’s pretty helpful when I’m reading a story about him!

Anyway, onto more specific things...

Vegas thing looks fun (and horrible, of course). I wonder how it’ll all end up with a [pan dimensional] steam punk ship.

Background story is brilliantly done. And 'Alone together now' is making me green with writerly envy. Plus, Angelus in the background of Spike’s siring? Oh yeah.

(I’ll deal with the Twilight thing separately.)

Spike/Angel snarky banter! *profound love* And Illyria!!! This exchange made me laugh out loud in delight:

Angel: Illyria, watch the civilians.
Illyria: I am. They’re weeping. It’s repulsive.

Then, the getting-the-band-back-together. OK, so the fact that Beck is now dressed as a girl in a comic book is less than yay worthy, but hey - she *is* a girl in a comic book, and Lynch & Urru make no claims about being feminist in any way. What I *do* like is Spike’s 'I’m on a mission, love. The dark forces are stepping up and I want someone who will have my back. Beck can handle herself in a fight and she takes direction. There’s no romantic intentions here.' Beck’s in the story because she’s a good fighter, and a good friend, and I sincerely doubt she’ll ever be shown as a love interest. *crosses fingers* (She hero-worships Spike rather, but I think she got over that in Shadow Puppets. So I’m optimistic.) Plus, she’s just adorably excited to be in Vegas. ♥

And Betta George! \o/ Everything’s better with him around. Plus, he brings up Connor. LOOK PEOPLE HE EXISTS! (Calling him ‘Teen Angel’ made me smile.) Damn I hope this comic gets the blessing of the PTB and becomes ‘canon’ since that means Angel’s greatest love hasn’t been consigned to the ret-con dustbin.

’Everyone else sees the flying Elvises, er... Elvisii? Elvees?’ *cheers for language joke* (’Is this a Cirque thing?’ Heh.) Also, Spike is smart and figures out what to do immediately. Which leads to the wonderful end panel of him deciding to just lie down for a minute (hey, his shoulder’s out of socket, I’m not blaming him!) - but still trying to maintain his cool. :)

Dru, of course, is a wonderful surprise (and mmmmm, those pages are just luscious!), although who is her beau? He reminds me of the werewolf from Asylum, but that could be coincidence. And why does Spike have his soul? Anyway, I can’t wait to see what happens when Spike and Dru meet again!

All in all - good set-up, nice mystery, and my boy Spike set for lots of heroics! I’m on board and eagerly awaiting next month.


The Twilight Thing
So, here’s the part where I am ALWAYS up for a Twilight joke. It might be stupid, but never as stupid the books themselves. And I rather love the idea of them being written by Spider, rewriting her somewhat one-sided (and problematic) thing with Spike into a Twu Wuv yarn (It's called TWINKLE! This keeps making me chuckle. Told you I was easy...) Plus 'Now there’s a teen wolf thrown into the mix for no apparent reason' is so RIDICULOUSLY accurate that it’s almost painful. (Although if Dru's lover IS a werewolf, then it's v. nice foreshadowing.) To jump sideways then I find s8’s ‘Twilight’ cover with Spike as Jacob far more insulting - because Jacob really is pointless. He’s the guy who has NO CHANCE IN HELL, and is only thrown into the mix to create artificial tension. Thanks Joss, we didn’t need that. (Going further, then does that mean that Spike is destined to fall in love with and marry Queen Twilight?)

Anyway, if we go with the ‘canon’ thing, then both the Twinkle craze and the movie about Angel (and girl!Spike) in Hell-A go much further than anything in s8 to show why vampires have become so popular. Imagine for a minute that the Twi-hards found out that their darling Eddykins was real... they’d totally fight tooth and nail for him and his kind. Plus, with hero!Angel saving LA from the hordes of hell (based on a true story!), the public has plenty of positive role models to project their feelings onto. I’m sure Twilight (the organisation) happily exploited this. (Thank you Mr Lynch for filling in some plot holes - feel like explaining why Buffy lost her mind and started robbing banks? Can't be done? Ah well, it was worth a try.)

Nostalgia and bitterness. s8 lovers should probably stay away - I don’t want to harsh your squee
Reading this issue was actually a bittersweet experience. Because for a few pages I had my show back - it was Illyria and Angel and Spike, fighting and bickering and being so completely themselves that it made me miss my show more than I have for a long, long time. And I remember that they cancelled it, that we could have had more, that we’ll never ever get them back, and it’s painful. My beautiful, beautiful show.

And the thing is - s8 doesn’t inspire those kinds of feelings. At all. Everyone is OOC and badly drawn and the story makes no sense and they destroyed my Angel. Seeing him here - rigidly moral, a little petty, and just... Angel - it suddenly brought home again the *immense* damage done to him in s8. It’s so vast that I can’t really grasp it. And I don’t think I can ever forgive Joss.

So yes, I’m bitter. I didn’t think I had it in me to have any feelings about s8 anymore (my feelings went from bemusement through frustration to disgust and then ended up in mocking indifference) - but apparently I can still be bitter. I wrote Buffy & co. off as a lost cause years ago, but I had hoped that Angel and Spike could stay unsullied. How wrong I was. Spike is still himself (miraculously), but I want him to do his thing and then run far far away from the train wreck again as fast as his undead legs can carry him.

So yeah, I’m clinging to this comic, partly because it's set BEFORE everything goes to hell Twilight. I didn't want to end on such a downer, but... *deep sigh* I think I'll watch some Angel tonight. Maybe 'Damage'. And I'll raise my glass to both my souled vampire Champions.


Oh! I forgot to talk about the 'aerial sex' joke. As people have noted it comes out of nowhere, doesn't fit with anything and is pretty pointless. Much like the aerial sex itself then.

Also RL is actually pretty busy at the moment, plus it's my birthday tomorrow, so I might be a little slow in replying to comments. But I always get there in the end.

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

It hasn't arrived for me yet, but had to read what you said (s8 has disillusioned me so much for the Buffy!Verse in Comic!Land). Good to know Lynch has pulled a rabbit out of a hat. Got his own original characters back (who were, in my opinion, fantastic), given Spike his own group, and the snarky, snippy relationship between Spike/Angel into the mix.

Sounds just perfect. I also love that Lynch has poked fun at Twilight in a way that still make me proud of my show, rather than what has happened in s8, with just makes me cringe in embbaressment.

[elisi]

It hasn't arrived for me yet, but had to read what you said (s8 has disillusioned me so much for the Buffy!Verse in Comic!Land).
Oh you and me both. *deep sigh*

Good to know Lynch has pulled a rabbit out of a hat.
He has rather. Good ol' Brian. (I get that some people don't like his style, in which case this is just more of the same of the stuff they didn't like the first time round. Ah well, their loss.)

Got his own original characters back (who were, in my opinion, fantastic), given Spike his own group, and the snarky, snippy relationship between Spike/Angel into the mix.
I love them all soooo much. ♥

Sounds just perfect. I also love that Lynch has poked fun at Twilight in a way that still make me proud of my show, rather than what has happened in s8, with just makes me cringe in embbaressment.
I can see why some people think it a stupid, silly thing. But if that's the worst thing you can throw at it... :)

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

Well, I can add your review to the + pile then. *g*

I think they’d be very happy together (when they’re not throwing furniture at each other).

HA! So true.

I also think that Spike loves Angel (and vice versa). I think (ultimately) he stayed with Angel because he knew Angel needed him more [than Buffy did].

WORD. This is so how I see it too. ♥

Spike is more than happy to let Angel be King. ‘Cause he is smart enough to know that the princes have all the fun.

Oh, TOTALLY. Totally.

because Jacob really is pointless. He’s the guy who has NO CHANCE IN HELL, and is only thrown into the mix to create artificial tension.

Oh, I'd actually argue about this. Jacob is in the mix to represent Bella's only real connection to humanity (aside from Charlie). Because Twilight is failsome, the protagonist instead chose death ("forever") over either Jacob or, you know, independence - and it was portrayed as the right choice.

But ugh. Talking about Twilight makes me cranky.

it was Illyria and Angel and Spike, fighting and bickering and being so completely themselves that it made me miss my show more than I have for a long, long time. And I remember that they cancelled it, that we could have had more, that we’ll never ever get them back, and it’s painful. My beautiful, beautiful show.

*bursts into tears* WHY. WHY DO IT. I will never not mourn the season 6 that never was.

I forgot to talk about the 'aerial sex' joke. As people have noted it comes out of nowhere, doesn't fit with anything and is pretty pointless. Much like the aerial sex itself then.

LOL. I like it when you get your snark on.

[elisi]

Well, I can add your review to the + pile then. *g*
Aw, thank you! :)

HA! So true.
I will never not ship them. They were my first proper OTP...

WORD. This is so how I see it too. ♥
\o/ Spike and Angel in S5 is one of my favourite things ever. (I have written much meta on this...) Like I've said before - where have you been all my fannish life? ;)

Oh, TOTALLY. Totally.
Thank you!

Oh, I'd actually argue about this. Jacob is in the mix to represent Bella's only real connection to humanity (aside from Charlie). Because Twilight is failsome, the protagonist instead chose death ("forever") over either Jacob or, you know, independence - and it was portrayed as the right choice.
Well this was sort of my point (just badly expressed) - there is a conflict, but it's brushed aside as unimportant. (Plus, of course, Jacob is turned into a jerk who tries to force himself onto Bella...) Yeah, talking about Twilight makes me cranky too.

*bursts into tears* WHY. WHY DO IT. I will never not mourn the season 6 that never was.
*clings* It's so TRAGIC, and they had to wrap everything up too quickly and, and... *cries*

LOL. I like it when you get your snark on.
Thank you. I can't help it. It just... happens. *shifty eyes*

[shapinglight]

Goes to show how I've been feeling about the whole comics business recently that it's got to the stage now where I actually feel a bit scared to stick my hand up and say I agree with you (mostly. I didn't like the Twilight-mockage, partly because I loathe Spider so much that even seeing Spike refer to her as an ex-girlfriend' makes me feel queasy).

Season 8 Spike is fine as far as he goes, which isn't far since he's arrived on the scene so late, and thinking he's so much better than Lynch's Spike does seem to me to depend on a lot on not liking Angel very much.

I'm a pessimist about Spike's role in the Buffy comic (there's a surprise), and I've yet to see any real sign that Joss considers the character important or has any story to tell about him. At least Lynch wants to write about him.

And you're right. Comparing Spike to Jacob is insulting.

And now I feel like I said too much again. :sigh:

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

"And now I feel like I said too much again. :sigh:"

Oh don't be silly. Hell are people daft enough to think that free speech only travels one way? *g*

[elisi]

Goes to show how I've been feeling about the whole comics business recently that it's got to the stage now where I actually feel a bit scared to stick my hand up and say I agree with you
*kicks all comic books soundly*

mostly. I didn't like the Twilight-mockage, partly because I loathe Spider so much that even seeing Spike refer to her as an ex-girlfriend' makes me feel queasy
Hey, I can understand that. But I like all the meta.

Season 8 Spike is fine as far as he goes, which isn't far since he's arrived on the scene so late, and thinking he's so much better than Lynch's Spike does seem to me to depend on a lot on not liking Angel very much.
It does rather, which is unfortunate. I think it's the BtVS/AtS schism. Most people seem to like one side or the other, not both. :(

I'm a pessimist about Spike's role in the Buffy comic (there's a surprise), and I've yet to see any real sign that Joss considers the character important or has any story to tell about him. At least Lynch wants to write about him.
And Lynch tends to tread more carefully, being aware that he's playing with someone else's toys.

And now I feel like I said too much again. :sigh:
Hey it's my LJ, and I shall defend you! :)

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

"Everyone is OOC and badly drawn and the story makes no sense and they destroyed my Angel"

"Spike is still himself (miraculously), but I want him to do his thing and then run far far away from the train wreck again as fast as his undead legs can carry him."

Yep, got it in one. Run Spike as fast as you can! :D

[elisi]

Yep, got it in one. Run Spike as fast as you can! :D
It's like a thriller - will he escape from the evil clutches of OOCness, or will he, too, be drawn down into the pit of destroyed characters? (Oh dear, I fear I'm being too snarky. Again.)

[lynnenne]

Great review. I won't be buying the comics, but if you happen to know of a download I wouldn't say no. ;) I would love to read some Angel/Spike/Illyria banter that actually sounds like them.

I love Lynch's Spike. I loved him in After the Fall, and it sounds like I would love him in this. Of all the comic book writers, I think Lynch writes the Angel characters the best - and that includes all the former BtVS writers working on S8.

And YAY for mention of Connor!

[elisi]

Great review. I won't be buying the comics, but if you happen to know of a download I wouldn't say no. ;)
I'll see what I can do, but I can't promise anything, unfortunately.

I would love to read some Angel/Spike/Illyria banter that actually sounds like them.
It's very brief, but excellent. [I MISS MY SHOW!!!]

I love Lynch's Spike. I loved him in After the Fall, and it sounds like I would love him in this.
If the rest is as good as this, then I can wholeheartedly recommend it.

Of all the comic book writers, I think Lynch writes the Angel characters the best - and that includes all the former BtVS writers working on S8.
Very much so. He gets the tone of it just right (the darkness, the banter) and it makes a huge difference.

And YAY for mention of Connor!
I squeed! :)

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I am glad you are enjoying something in the comic world.

I just wanted to say that one of the things I love about season 8 Spike is exactly that he is his own man. It screams through in every panel. He's also reclaimed his William-ness, which is something I've hoped for ever since the poetry slam in NFA, which I thought was a huge moment for him, and which I wanted to see matter in any story about Spike going forward.

The huge divide is Angel and everything to do with him, I think. Season 8 is far too dark on Angel. This is clear even to someone like me who has always wanted people to be more mindful of how very dark Angel is. But IDW is far too light. And at the end of the day, that's the mistake I can't live with. I had an agenda coming out of NFA, and that was that it represented Angel's definitive *fall*. I wanted a story of him dealing with that and recovering from it, not one that just swept it off to the side with Lorne getting his groove back, and Lindsey's execution not being mentioned, or Drogyn, or any of the more subtle but very major darknesses that were part of NFA. I can see that an Angel story going forward that very much shoves all that to the side is more fun. More fun to have a son who miraculously gets his dark memories back and has no emotional repercussions to deal with. More fun all around. But what I love about Angel and AtS is the capital D dark they played with and the epic classic tragedy (where the problem isn't what happens to you, but rather what happens when you fail at your own life project). So this happier version leaves me behind.

Season 8 might leave me behind as well. Angel's dark there is broadbrush cartoon and is not really a meaningful engagement with his story the way I'd want it to be engaged. But if I have to choose cartoons, that's how I list. And I totally understand why others might prefer IDW's cartoon to DH's.

[elisi]

I am glad you are enjoying something in the comic world.
I've loved Lynch's comics ever since I first saw all the special ops people appearing going 'hut hut hut' which was... page 2 or 3 of 'Asylum'? :)

I just wanted to say that one of the things I love about season 8 Spike is exactly that he is his own man. It screams through in every panel.
Oh absolutely. I am so grateful that I could kiss s8. Well, almost.

And as for AtF... I won't deny that it had problems. It was *a* story of what could have happened post-NFA, and I thought it pretty good. Decent plot, sound characterisation, etc. I can understand that you wanted it to have far more dire consequences for Angel, and that's fair enough. But as a story about Angel, it worked.

The problem I have with s8 is that the cartoon parading around saying he's Angel... isn't. And it doesn't address his darkness, because we can't even be sure that he's himself. Queen Twilight says in the preview that he IS Twilight. So... he's like pod!Cordy? Who knows. I *always* go for the character driven story, and in s8 everyone is OOC, and they whole thing is story driven. Hence my disconnect.

And I hope that it'll not turn out too badly. I might not like it, but I'm not spiteful. I still wish for the best. (IT WAS ALL A DREAM! *g*)

[treadingthedark.livejournal.com]

Loved your review. I haven't got mine yet, it's been bought for me but not delivered yet, but I am pretty excited about it. I agree with everything you said.
"Oh! I forgot to talk about the 'aerial sex' joke. As people have noted it comes out of nowhere, doesn't fit with anything and is pretty pointless. Much like the aerial sex itself then."
Heh.

[elisi]

Loved your review.
Thank you. :)

I haven't got mine yet, it's been bought for me but not delivered yet, but I am pretty excited about it. I agree with everything you said.
It's a very nice beginning, and I'm sure you'll like it, silly jokes and all!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I was fed up of everyone thinking that he was staying away because he thought that Buffy didn’t love him (rather, than, say because he wanted to leave her free to do what she wanted). Although, looking at s8, I can now certainly see the justification of that mindset.

Honestly, if someone takes S8 as canon (I won't. I can't.) but if it were canon I don't see where now it can even be a debate whether Spike believed her. It may or may not have been the reason he stayed away, but it's clear that he did not believe her. If he had, he would have been far more surprised by the off-handed way she greeted him. Instead, it was about what he expected. In fact, I'd say if anything s8 has massively reinforced his conclusion that she loves him not at all. Certainly, there have been frenenmies that greeted each other more warmly than Buffy's "don't talk" complete shut-down. I don't see how Spike has anything left to convince himself that he means much to her beyond being a convenient ear and/or crutch. Now, whether that was the cause of his not contacting her, that's open for debate. But with the anti-climactic 'reunion' I don't think there's any reason for Spike to think she loves him at all. Maybe he's wrong, but it would take a shitload of work that the comics aren't going to put into it to convince him. As things stand, I don't see how Spike can think anything other than that Buffy loves Angel more than anything ( a damn site more than him)... and always has. I don't see S8 doing anything to change his mind.

I think (ultimately) he stayed with Angel because he knew Angel needed him more [than Buffy did].
Yes. I think that too. I've always thought that Spike thought that Angel had gotten himself into a pretty dismal situation, but Spike is loyal. And Angel is 'family'. And even if your brother is being a complete idiot, he's your idiot. If his back is against the wall, you'll stand with him (even if you also want to bash his head in). It's a family thing. (And, well, Spike also needs to be needed). Spike and Angel have ties and like brothers they have all the rivalry, old resentments, ties, obligations, hatreds, loyalties, and ambivalence that implies. They aren't best friends. But under the skin they are brothers. At least they are in places other than S8 where Angel is just a brain-dead soulless twat that doesn't even make sense (Seriously, the lack of any thought of Connor thing will always make Season 8 Twangel Angel a joke of a 'characterization.' So sorry, Joss, that Connor was inconvenient to your 'plot', but that's not an excuse to ignore the character's existence or his place in Angel's LIFE! That's just piss poor characterization. Yes. I said it. Joss can fuck-up too. And with S8 Angel he has. In spades.)

the story makes no sense and they destroyed my Angel. Seeing him here - rigidly moral, a little petty, and just... Angel - it suddenly brought home again the *immense* damage done to him in s8. It’s so vast that I can’t really grasp it. And I don’t think I can ever forgive Joss.

See my comments above. For all my issues with the way that Spuffy has been treated, it's nothing compared to my righteous anger of the way that Angel has been completely destroyed. Twangel isn't a character. If he were he'd have relationships (other than Buffy) that would impact his characterization (CONNOR!!!, Spike, even the deaths of Cordy and Wes). Instead he's just a ridiculous plot device. To get all meta about it, Twangel is the personification of the idiot plot. And, yes, that makes me angry. I cannot imagine why Joss chose to treat a character this badly.

Oh! I forgot to talk about the 'aerial sex' joke. As people have noted it comes out of nowhere, doesn't fit with anything and is pretty pointless. Much like the aerial sex itself then.

Space frakking will never, ever cease to be funny! Everyone can joke forever at its expense! It was just so breathtakingly dumb looking and stupid!

[elisi]

Firstly, the a world of yes to everything you said about Spike & Buffy in s8 [if we take s8 as canon]. You articulate beautifully why it kills Spuffy pretty dead.

Yes. I think that too. I've always thought that Spike thought that Angel had gotten himself into a pretty dismal situation, but Spike is loyal. And Angel is 'family'. And even if your brother is being a complete idiot, he's your idiot. If his back is against the wall, you'll stand with him (even if you also want to bash his head in). It's a family thing. (And, well, Spike also needs to be needed).
Oh ALL of this! Exactly. I love, love, love AtS S5 for the development of Spike & Angel's relationship, the way they tentatively build bridges and reforge bonds long broken.

(Seriously, the lack of any thought of Connor thing will always make Season 8 Twangel Angel a joke of a 'characterization.' So sorry, Joss, that Connor was inconvenient to your 'plot', but that's not an excuse to ignore the character's existence or his place in Angel's LIFE! That's just piss poor characterization. Yes. I said it. Joss can fuck-up too. And with S8 Angel he has. In spades.)
Especially not when looking at, say, 'Waters of Mars', where we see a character with many of Angel's flaws brought down by those very flaws in the most exquisite and tragic way. RTD screws up in many ways, but he knows his characters.

For all my issues with the way that Spuffy has been treated, it's nothing compared to my righteous anger of the way that Angel has been completely destroyed.
Like I said, I don't think I can ever forgive it. This comic just happened to remind me of the sheer SCALE of the destruction. It's like the Sunnydale crater.

Space frakking will never, ever cease to be funny! Everyone can joke forever at its expense! It was just so breathtakingly dumb looking and stupid!
Plus ugly. The Dru/Mystery Lover pages REALLY brought that into focus. (I have nothing against Jeanty, since he seems to be a lovely chap, but his style is much too square [literally] to be sexy.)

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Happy Birthday, in case I miss it tomorrow :)

Neat review, I've not read the issue yet and I think I'll wait for the collective volume, what you wrote definitely prompted me to read it.

At first I wanted to skip the series, because I didn't want to read another run that is connected to the trainwreck that is S8, but you're right, it's set before and even if it spends time on trying to make S8 events a little less pointless (everyone loves vamps)hopefully it can be seen as a separate story. It certainly sounds neat.

I'm not totally in love with Lynch's take on things usually. Often I feel it's a bit simple and one dimensional compared to the show, but having just one dimension of the actual show is still miles better than having said show twisted into some pointless parody of itself.

As characterization goes I think Spike having an inferiority complex towards Angel is certainly an aspect of their relationship. It's not the only one and might be one Lynch occasionally dwells on too much, but all in all it works.
I think it's fairly easy to argue that case, Spike IS insecure about Angel, he wants at the same time to be him and to be the complete opposite. Spike's emotions are very conflicted where Angel is concerned, he wants to beat him down, then he wants Angel to be proud of him.
It's a complex relationship and in my mind Lynch only catches parts of it, that's better than nothing though, and certainly a world of better than reducing Angel to the green (glowy) goblin and their relationship to nothing but jealousy over Buffy.

And I agree on the aerial sex joke, it being so misplaced is actually why the joke works so well :).

[elisi]

Happy Birthday, in case I miss it tomorrow :)
Thank you! :)

Neat review, I've not read the issue yet and I think I'll wait for the collective volume, what you wrote definitely prompted me to read it.
I'm just impatient... I'll let you know if the rest is up to the same standard. (And yes, I think I'll get the collected volume too!)

At first I wanted to skip the series, because I didn't want to read another run that is connected to the trainwreck that is S8, but you're right, it's set before and even if it spends time on trying to make S8 events a little less pointless (everyone loves vamps)hopefully it can be seen as a separate story. It certainly sounds neat.
I can absolutely understand wanting to skip it, but it really looks like its own thing through and through. And I think the 'making s8 less pointless' is probably pure coincidence. I can't imagine Lynch wanting to give the Destroyers of Angel any help...

I'm not totally in love with Lynch's take on things usually. Often I feel it's a bit simple and one dimensional compared to the show, but having just one dimension of the actual show is still miles better than having said show twisted into some pointless parody of itself.
Heh. Very true. Although I do think there's a fair bit going on under the surface. (Did you ever read my Asylum meta?) And, like I said elsewhere, he captures the tone of the show perfectly, and that makes *such* a difference!

I think it's fairly easy to argue that case, Spike IS insecure about Angel, he wants at the same time to be him and to be the complete opposite. Spike's emotions are very conflicted where Angel is concerned, he wants to beat him down, then he wants Angel to be proud of him.
It's a complex relationship and in my mind Lynch only catches parts of it, that's better than nothing though, and certainly a world of better than reducing Angel to the green (glowy) goblin and their relationship to nothing but jealousy over Buffy.
'Green glowy goblin' made me laugh. And yes, it's hard to capture every aspect, but at least Lynch knows that there are many, many layers and tries to work with them. (I am SO good at overlooking flaws if the whole pleases me.)

And I agree on the aerial sex joke, it being so misplaced is actually why the joke works so well :).
Thanks. I tried to think of a way to work it in to ANY conversation and came up blank. So I think Lynch did quite well there. ;)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Early happy birthday wishes! Big plans with the family? I hope tomorrow's a wonderful day for you! :D



Why I Think The Evolution Page Could've Been Awesome

Take out the "noble" mess, leave Spike thinking he's a chaotic eight and a half, then have Spike snarking that Angel is an astronaut who's evolution has crippled him because he's lost touch with the primal power that fuels this world, that Angel has deluded himself into believing he's evolved into a noble creature.

The problem with that page is that it's framed by Lynch's view that Angel is a straight-up white hat and this improperly forms Spike's POV of Angel. Spike wants to be a caveman, in touch with his primal forces, while Angel wants to be an astronaut. But Spike will look at Angel and see a guy who'll commit atrocities for the greater good and pretend he's somehow less barbaric than the caveman who came before simply because he's wearing gloves so the blood doesn't stain his hands. When Spike looks at Angel, he still sees the barbaric inside him. He always has. So for Spike to entertain the idea that Angel is the noblest of the noble reveals the writer not grasping how dark Angel is as a character and that skews Spike's characterization regarding Angel the same way it would if a writer didn't understand Buffy's darkness when writing BtVS Season 6.

That's what I think is the problem with the evolution page. It implies that this is a straight evolution from barbaric evil to noble good with the barbaric evil of Turokhan at the lowest end and the "noble" goodness of Angel coming out on top. Then you have Spike as a chaotic eight and a half, as if chaos were in conflict with nobility and good, when in fact Spike's special brand of chaos is incredibly good. Spike as chaos figure leads to him helping Buffy save the world in Becoming. Order =! good. Chaos =! evil.

I think that page comes close to being incredibly interesting but then flubs the landing/completely misses the point because of oversimplification. Which is really my problem with Lynch's writing. He comes so close to grasping and expressing the complexity of this 'verse, but then falls short. It's because he so nearly walks the walk and talks the talk that his inability to deliver leaves me so vastly disappointed. Like watching your favorite team nearly score a goal only to miss by an inch. Your hopes are high, your team almost won, but then it's all for naught and what's left to do but jeer and curse 'cause he was so close.

As for the Twilight mockery and the flashback pages, I was hoping for originality. Things I already know like the back of my hand: 1) Spike's life on BtVS and 2) Twilight Sucks. I spent the first half of the issue going Oh Pretteh Pictures About Stuff I Already Know and Jokes That Have Been Told Better For Over Two Years Now.

I hope now that the flashbacks are out of the way, now that Spider has been put to rest, now that the Twilight joke's been done and now that Angel is left behind in LA (so Lynch's oversimplified view of this tragic figure won't muck with the story), all the distractions have been worked out of Lynch's system and he can get back to doing what he does best: Spike. I love Spike: Asylum and Spike: After the Fall. I'd like more of those now.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Take out the "noble" mess, leave Spike thinking he's a chaotic eight and a half, then have Spike snarking that Angel is an astronaut who's evolution has crippled him because he's lost touch with the primal power that fuels this world, that Angel has deluded himself into believing he's evolved into a noble creature.

Does it need to be that explicit? He said Angel was coma-inducing boring, which is basically that Angel sees the world as simplified, good/bad it must fit in one category or the other...which is somewhat true of Angel.

The thing is, I think, Spike's feelings regarding Angel are complicated. I don't think Spike is all that judgemental of people. He can be cynical about people and he can be incredibly pragmatic on occasions, but one of the things I love about Spike is that he doesn't set himself up as judge. He snarks. He doesn't judge. Angel judges. Angel likes to make moral pronoucements and judgements so as to both reassure himself and to feel entitled. Spike doesn't feel entitled. Spike doesn't feel like he has a soap box to stand on. He'll mock. He likes to mock. But for as angry as Spike is with Angel, as competitive as Spike can be (at times) with Angel, as ridiculous as Spike sometimes feels that Angel is, Spike also has some compassion for him. Spike and Angel share a fair bit of common ground (and loads of history). Spike is aware of Angel's losses (Cordy, Wesley, Fred...). Spike will gladly mock the hell out of Angel, though. That's his pleasure.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

First of all, then yes, Lynch can be a jerk. Secondly - I don’t care. Lots of writers are jerks. Should he stay away from fandom? You betcha. But hey, that’s his funeral.

Amen. Heck, I don't plan on being best buds with the guy or ever meeting him in person. I just like reading his Spike comic books.

Anyway, I’m presuming that there are *other* reasons for people to dislike his Spike. I was thinking about this, and why I think he’s great. Partly it’s because I like Spike, full stop. Like my icon says, I like all the different Spikes - good, evil, loving Buffy or Angel, I adore him.

Hee. Me too. You put this so well. I like all versions. Favorite male fictional character of all time - full-stop.

Actually, amen to all of this meta. I rather adore your analysis of that evolution page - I saw it the same way, more or less. My only caveat - is I think Spike does see Angel as nobler than thou, but it doesn't bug me. (Did you get a chance to read my review on it? ) Love, love...the caveman/astronaut analogy. So perfect.

In reading the comments, my guess is that people are wasting spending far too much time arguing with fans regarding who is better or more deserving or more heroic - Angel or Spike. To the extent that the Angel/Spike wars have clouded many fans ability to enjoy the comics or the series. It's almost as if people have reduced the tv show, characters, and comics to some competitive pissing match or sports show - if such and such happens - points for Angel and/or Bangel, if such and such happens points for Spike and/or Spuffy.

Lynch makes fun of this - with his Team William and Team Jared shirts, and Spike's off hand remark to Angel, you're just upset because there won't be a Team Angel shirt.

And that I think is a perfect way of breaking it down. Many fans have split themselves off into Team Spike vs. Team Angel and somewhere along have lost all perspective. The story instead of being about all the characters and a journey, to the fan is basically just a tug of war or contest. May the best man or vampire win. Which is odd, because in regards to Buffy - the writers have never really written it as a love triangle. When Spike's gone - she's with Angel. When Angel's gone she's with Spike. I'm not even sure she can tell them apart. They are two different but equal sides of her nature, both part of her to some degree. Granted I prefer one to the other, but I think the writers see them more equally.

What I love, love about your meta is that you clearly like both Angel and Spike. I do too, except in the Buffy S8 comics, where I can't abide Angel and wish he'd die a gruesome and prolonged death by paper cuts, but that's not my Angel, or my Buffy either for that matter. Lynch's comic reminded me of what I loved about Angel and how much I miss that show. A show that got better in its last two seasons. (Was admittedly not a big fan of S3, but did love portions of it - such as the last five episodes, and the first four, with Lullaby.) Angel the series - delved into a character that desperately wanted redeemption, to be a champion, and kept screwing up royally. It was in that respect quite different than many other shows. And the Angel/Spike relationship - remains amongst my favorite bro-romances to date. Lynch seems to get it, to get that world, to understand the complexity of these characters - and unlike many fans doesn't appear to care who is better. He likes them both for different reasons.

Great meta and thank you for giving me something positive, fun and non-blood-pressure inducing to read at lunch. Been a tough morning.

[ETA - sorry for the delete repost - but I don't have the edit function, dang it.]

[elisi]

And Beck and Betta George are back!!! How can i not enjoy this?
Plus, being rude to people on the internet is hardly the greatest crime in the world. Not classy, of course, but comparatively not very bad. Plus, he's got a way to go before he matches RTD. :)

Hee. Me too. You put this so well. I like all versions. Favorite male fictional character of all time - full-stop.
You've read The Educated Fangirl's Guide To The Spike Wars, right? Although (as I pointed out to the author) she missed out the Spuffy shippers. :)

Actually, amen to all of this meta. I rather adore your analysis of that evolution page - I saw it the same way, more or less
Thank you. :)

My only caveat - is I think Spike does see Angel as nobler than thou, but it doesn't bug me. (Did you get a chance to read my review on it? )
I've managed to read your review now, yes. (I was saving it until I'd written my own, and it's v. v. good. You caught lots of stuff I didn't. Which is something I love about Lynch - there's so many little things hidden away.) And I can certainly see your point - there are a LOT of layers to Spike/Angel, and Spike has (and probably always will) look up to Angel - as well as Spike (like Corin in my example) being astute enough to see that Angel's situation isn't enviable.

In reading the comments, my guess is that people are wasting spending far too much time arguing with fans regarding who is better or more deserving or more heroic - Angel or Spike. To the extent that the Angel/Spike wars have clouded many fans ability to enjoy the comics or the series.
*nods a lot* (Barb's post the other day was very topical indeed.) I don't get this, partly because I ship Spike/Angel, and when s8 ruins Angel, my 'ship is gone. :(

Lynch makes fun of this - with his Team William and Team Jared shirts, and Spike's off hand remark to Angel, you're just upset because there won't be a Team Angel shirt.
I was going to mention that! *laughs* Oh, he crammed SO much good stuff into that Twilight mocking. :)

When Spike's gone - she's with Angel. When Angel's gone she's with Spike. I'm not even sure she can tell them apart. They are two different but equal sides of her nature, both part of her to some degree. Granted I prefer one to the other, but I think the writers see them more equally.
I think the writers just like breaking people's hearts. ;) In one of Anna's posts she writes how if Buffy ends up with either of them permanently it'll be the most un-Joss-like thing ever, and I agree. The ships always serve the story and/or characters.

What I love, love about your meta is that you clearly like both Angel and Spike.
Thank you! I love them both to PIECES (S5 of AtS is my favourite because of them), and they hit all of my shipping buttons perfectly. (I always fall for the same dynamic - I ship Spuffy, Spangel, Jack/Ianto, Doctor/Master and Doctor/River. Snark, possible antagonism or love/hate relationship, always having each other's back... I'm there. Plus a bit of immortality helps. *g*)

I do too, except in the Buffy S8 comics, where I can't abide Angel and wish he'd die a gruesome and prolonged death by paper cuts, but that's not my Angel, or my Buffy either for that matter.
Oh no no, it shouldn't be long, what a terrible thought! He should just disappear from existence in the blink of an eye!

Lynch's comic reminded me of what I loved about Angel and how much I miss that show.
When you see the real thing, the fake is easy to spot...

Was admittedly not a big fan of S3, but did love portions of it - such as the last five episodes, and the first four, with Lullaby
S3 for me consists of the beginning, the middle and the end, with less-than-stellar fillers inbetween.

Angel the series - delved into a character that desperately wanted redeemption, to be a champion, and kept screwing up royally. It was in that respect quite different than many other shows.
::nods:: I like that Angel's worst enemy is himself - and yet, without the vampire, (without the soul...) he wouldn't be anyone.

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

I nodded along your entire review, and dammit I wan't this comic so bad!!

Dammit if I can't have Spuffy then the next best thing is a well written Spike, that as you say doesn't need to be king. He might like to lead a task force now and then but he doesn't need to be the one with the world on his shoulders :)

And Beck and Betta George are back!!! How can i not enjoy this?

[elisi]

I nodded along your entire review, and dammit I wan't this comic so bad!!
I'll see what I can do!

Dammit if I can't have Spuffy then the next best thing is a well written Spike, that as you say doesn't need to be king. He might like to lead a task force now and then but he doesn't need to be the one with the world on his shoulders :)
*nods* It works very well.

And Beck and Betta George are back!!! How can i not enjoy this?
They are as adorable as ever! And Beck is all excited to be in Vegas. ♥

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

Hee! thanks for reminding me of my own thoughts. I still agree with them, but not with the grammar used ;)

as for the comics - sigh - I feel like re-watching the TV series, too< you know? I like reading about them, since they exist and people talk, but not reading them. But if this one will appear in my lap, I'll have a look. The Angel and Illyria part seems cool. ;)

[elisi]

Hee! thanks for reminding me of my own thoughts. I still agree with them, but not with the grammar used ;)
Heh. It was written quite a while ago. Still - excellent post!

as for the comics - sigh - I feel like re-watching the TV series, too< you know?
Yeah. Especially when it comes to Buffy, because once you sit down and watch the actual show it becomes even clearer how ridiculous s8 is.

But if this one will appear in my lap, I'll have a look. The Angel and Illyria part seems cool. ;)
Well their parts are sadly very brief. I'll let you know if the rest is up to scratch!

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Happy birthday in advance!

[elisi]

Thank you! :)

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

My problem as ever with Lynch is that what's good is not original and what's original is not good. The caveman/astronaut comparison was insightful and diverting for a while on the show but turning a living argument into a smug linear hierarchy adds nothing to the original. As for Twlight jokes they're just too easy. My cat could write a Stephanie Meyer parody and she's been dead for six years. Lynch's Spike is a jerk but a generic one or, as your Narnian comparison makes clear, a 13(0) year old princeling who never wants to grow up. His Angel is bland and his Illyria a one joke vulcan princess, I dread to think of the travesty his Dru is going to be.

[elisi]

Oh you and me are never going to agree on Lynch. :) Basically, I trust him as a writer. I'm sorry you can't see what I see, but (as is so often the case) everyone sees something different.

[ubi4soft.livejournal.com]

Happy Birthday!

About the "coma inducing noble": How cannot Spike view Angel this way if they're still on the schedule? Really, I'm wondering if the theaters to be hit were numbered or had bullet points.

I haven't seen many Twilight parodies (not particularly looking for them) but this one made me laugh and I thought if SM would have been in Hell-A she'd been Spider.

I'm terrified of what Joss may do to Spike in S8 but I cannot stop reading. He's been brought as contrast to Angel, exposition guy and I dislike a big part of his interaction with Buffy. He even appears in one panel just for the sake of it (let's draw Faith, Giles and Spike interacting). There are too many bottles spread around in his ship, sign of serious amount of drinking that can lead to bad things.

And I loved your review. It made me not feel ashamed or stupid for enjoying something.

[elisi]

Happy Birthday!
Thank you! :)

About the "coma inducing noble": How cannot Spike view Angel this way if they're still on the schedule? Really, I'm wondering if the theaters to be hit were numbered or had bullet points.
LOL! Plus, they're there to protect Spike-fans... I'd say that's pretty noble of Angel. *g*

I haven't seen many Twilight parodies (not particularly looking for them) but this one made me laugh and I thought if SM would have been in Hell-A she'd been Spider.
I've seen way way too many Twilight parodies, but they don't get old. And this one has layers!

I'm terrified of what Joss may do to Spike in S8 but I cannot stop reading. He's been brought as contrast to Angel, exposition guy and I dislike a big part of his interaction with Buffy. He even appears in one panel just for the sake of it (let's draw Faith, Giles and Spike interacting).
Well Allie has talked about how they'll 'respect' Spuffy, which I guess means everything being very civil and nothing whatsoever happening. But since Spike has been in character for what? Two whole issues? I'm tentatively optimistic that he'll get out of the mess more or less intact.

There are too many bottles spread around in his ship, sign of serious amount of drinking that can lead to bad things.
I'm sure that's just 'characterisation'.

And I loved your review. It made me not feel ashamed or stupid for enjoying something.
Aw. Never feel like that! Heck I can enjoy CSI:Miami. (OK, so I mock it all the way through, but...) This was a very good comic and it made my day. And the thing about Lynch is that he does layers. There's always something more to everything - he plays with words and meanings and the drawings always have details that are worth exploring. ♥

[elinora.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I'm not familiar with the comics. Is this part of the Buffy S8, or a separate book?

[elisi]

A separate book. Brian Lynch has written a number of Spike comics: 'Spike: Asylum' and 'Spike: Shadow Puppets', both set during AtS S5. He's also written a post-NFA Angel comic 'Angel: After the Fall' (good, but flawed), and a tie-in comic to that, 'Spike: After the Fall'. This one is set post the 'After the Fall' ones, and will possibly tie into s8 vaguely, but it's very much its own story.

My icon is from 'Asylum' (the artist, Franco Urru, is amazing!). Lynch writes a very good [AtS] Spike, and gets the tone of the show pretty much spot-on. I hope that's helpful. :)