Why did Spike not go to Buffy?

[elisi]

ETA: This was essentially a rant and honestly I'm not sure that I mean it all 100%. Maybe Spike *didn't* think that Buffy loved him, who knows. The real reason Spike didn't go to Buffy was the fact that JM had a contract. And the writers had to find a reason...

*hates subject*


After my big Spike on Angel essay the other day, molly_may wrote a post about how she thought that Spike didn't have much growth on AtS - and that he even seemed to regress. Now I can see what she means, and he certainly in some aspects went back to being very irritating, but that can mostly be put down to Angel. They bring out the worst in each other. And yes, on BtVS he often got to be far more layered ('Dead Things' would be a prime example).

But having done a swift re-watch recently of the beginning of S5 (watched 'Harm's Way' last night), I have to disagree with there being no significant character growth. I think it's there - and it's pretty big too. It just happens very quietly. And it begins at the very, very end of BtVS...

This is where watching 'Harm's Way' comes in - it's the ep where he decides not to go to Buffy. Why? Because he doesn't believe she loves him? No. Let's look at the evidece:

SPIKE: Go on, then.
BUFFY: No. No, you've done enough. You could still—
SPIKE: No, you've beat them back. It's for me to do the cleanup.
FAITH: Buffy, come on!
SPIKE: Gotta move, lamb. I think it's fair to say school's out for bloody summer.
BUFFY: Spike!
SPIKE: I mean it! I gotta do this.
BUFFY: I love you.
SPIKE: No, you don't. But thanks for saying it. Now go! I wanna see how it ends.

Right there: "I mean it. I gotta do this." He's being the hero and he's going to see it through.

"I love you."/"No you don't." That's him letting go of her. And of course he believes her... because look at what he says moments later (like a couple of minutes from his POV):

SPIKE: Buffy! Is she—
ANGEL: She's OK.
SPIKE: Where—where is she?
ANGEL: Europe, last I heard from her.
SPIKE: Wanna see her... Wanna talk to her.
ANGEL: That's gonna be tough.
SPIKE: You can't keep her from me.
ANGEL: She's not mine to keep... or yours.
SPIKE: Says you. You don't know what we had.

You know, that doesn't sound like a guy who didn't believe her. "You can't keep her from me."/"She's not mine to keep... or yours."/"Says you." That to me says pretty clearly that Spike thinks Buffy is his to keep!

"You don't know what we had." That's got nothing to do with sex - that's got all to do with their relationship. It sounds like a guy who suddenly realises that he got a second chance - and now can talk about that 'I love you'. Can change his response! If he really, truly didn't believe that she could ever love him, his conversation with Angel makes no sense.

Then of course he gets stuck at W&H and for a while he's just dealing with not getting sucked into hell. After that - he begins learning more about Angel's world. A world where the Powers That Be rule the roost and prophecies matter. The Slayer was created by humans to protect their own - but Angel's world is bigger. The stakes higher. And still, within what - half an hour after becoming corporeal - he wants to go to Buffy:

SPIKE: Well, screw this town, then. Screw this devil's funhouse, Angel. And screw you for good measure. I think I'll take the new flesh and bones across the pond back to Europe.

And Angel fully expects Buffy to be there for him:

ANGEL: Spike... stay. Please. Europe'll still be there after we've worked this out.

And then comes the Cup of Torment, and we see Spike grabbing onto his Champion identity with both hands.

SPIKE: Burned up saving the world, and now I'm back for real. Wonder why that is? Oh, wait. 'Cause I'm the one, you git!

Of course, when it all turns out to be fake, he goes right back to focussing on Buffy, and that she's his:

SPIKE: Yeah, I thought I'd push off, seeing as how I got somebody waiting for me.

And, although not happy about it, Angel does not doubt that a warm welcome awaits Spike:

SPIKE: Any message for Buffy?
ANGEL: Tell her you're a moron.

And we have this line later on:

SPIKE: I expect Buffy would be happy enough to see me.

There is never - anywhere - the slightest suggestion that Buffy would not be delighted to see him. We even have Harmony spell it out:

HARMONY: Girls don't care about stuff like that. Just one look at you, and she'll forget herself, and she'll get all tingly...

They even cut out the 'I love you'/'No you don't' lines from the initial flashback. From what we know in S5 of AtS, Buffy is in Europe and would be *happy* seeing Spike. She's waiting for him (although she doesn't know he's alive, but still) and there's no hint that Spike ever doubts that she wants him.

(The only two instances are both more than murky:

1. ANGEL: "No, you're less. That's why Buffy never really loved you."
'Destiny'

That's quite simply Angel letting Angelus out to play. Because what does Angel know of Buffy's feelings? "He [Spike] is in my heart." It's a punch that misses. And he knows it. Both before and after (as quoted above) he acknowledges that Buffy's waiting for Spike.

2. SPIKE: It's over. Just like that. Not that I thought I had a chance anyway.
TGiQ

First of all - he didn't think it was over before that. That's important. And then he starts covering. Not to mention that this is 'The Girl In Question' and the whole thing needs to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt. Like truckloads full. And as Andrew says:

ANDREW: The point is she's moving on. You guys do the same, and you might catch her one day. One of you, anyway. But you keep running in place, you're gonna find she's long gone.

And also, this is all half a year post-Harm's Way.)

So, going back to that episode, why doesn't he go? Well this is his reason:

SPIKE: I was on my way. Had a boat ticket and all. Then I put a little thinking into it. A man can't go out in a bloody blaze of glory, savin' the world, and then show up 3 months later, tumbling off a cruise ship in the south of France. I mean, I'd love to, don't get me wrong, but, uh, it's hard to top an exit like that.

This has rattled round in my head for hours now, and all I can get out of it is this: He cares more about being a hero than getting Buffy. And that - is huge. It really is quite momentus character development. As I said, it starts in those last moments in 'Chosen', telling Buffy 'no'. Being a hero just then is enough - he doesn't need her love.

Next episode ('Soul Purpose') 'Doyle' shows up. After he's revealed as fake Spike keeps fighting the good fight. And then in 'Shells' of course we have the other half of the statement:

SPIKE: It's what I want. I don't really like you. Suppose I never will. But this is important, what's happening here. Fred gave her life for it. The least I can do is give what's left of mine. The fight's comin', Angel. We both feel it... and it's gonna be a hell of a lot bigger than Illyria. Things are gonna get ugly. That's where I live.

See I think people get confused about that speech (and I think I have as well). It's not about 'fighting the good fight' - he does that anyway. It's about choosing Angel's fight as his own. But the initial decision - hero, not lover - came in 'Harm's Way'. And has nothing to do with Buffy's feelings or him not believing them.

(This post brought to you by my irritation after reading too many fics with Spike acting like some sort of Victorian maid, doubtful of the depth and authenticity of her (his) suitor's feelings, after he meets Buffy post-NFA. This is Spike for goodness sake! Mr. Begging for a crumb. Mr. 'That whole pride thing was just a smoke screen'. He might not think that a relationship is possible, but *not* because of her feelings 'not being up to scratch.' )


Oh and my parent's flight got cancelled and they're not arriving until tomorrow. Hence this indulgence.

ETA2: I also wrote Spike-POV-fic, trying to delve into what he was thinking: Self Reflections. Set just after Harm's Way.

Comments

[hesadevil.livejournal.com]

Another great post.

I found myself nodding in agreement with every point you made, especially where it all began. I actually think it was slightly earlier in Season 7, at the end of LMPTM, when Spike says he's not under The First's or anyone else's influence any more. There he became his own man. But that doesn't mean that Buffy's loving him wasn't important to him any more and I totally agree that the moment 'being a hero is more important' to him than going Buffy is The. Big. Character development moment on AtS.

[elisi]

Another great post.
Thank you! :)

I actually think it was slightly earlier in Season 7, at the end of LMPTM. There he became his own man.
*nods* That's a good point. And shows how organic his development is.

But that doesn't mean that Buffy's loving him wasn't important to him any more
Exactly. If he *hadn't* been dying his response would have been very different. People say and do things when they're dying that they wouldn't otherwise (see Doyle and Cordy).

I totally agree that the moment 'being a hero is more important' to him than going Buffy is The. Big. Character development moment on AtS.
Indeed. He falters a little (stripclub anyone?), but then that's understandable.

[empresspatti.livejournal.com]

I still scamper over to read your posts - even though the show has been over for years. Your analysis is remarkable.

Sure is a big change - for Love's BItch to Self Sacrificing Hero.

Darn that SMG for not guesting on TGIQ. It would have been so much better for us fans.....

[elisi]

Your analysis is remarkable.
Aw, thanks. And hey - I'm the one *writing* this all these years later. Too obsessed...

Sure is a big change - for Love's BItch to Self Sacrificing Hero.
Isn't it just? What a guy!

Darn that SMG for not guesting on TGIQ.
Oh, but she was never going to. They were hoping to get her for ep. 100 - and instead got Charisma Carpenter and we got the end of Cordy's story (for which I am very grateful). For TGiQ they were trying to get Michelle Trachtenberg, but ended up with Andrew when she couldn't do it. And anyway, TGiQ is *not* about Buffy - heck Joss has ret-conned the heck out of that ep and it makes no difference to Spike & Angel. (Cause it's all about them! Yay!)

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Great insight - I must admit that in a world not governed by rival TV networks, Spike the Impulsive would almost certainly have gone to visit Buffy even if he did then choose to forge a new destiny for himself as a hero. But I think you've justified it as well as anyone could!

However:
He cares more about being a hero than getting Buffy. And that - is huge. It really is quite momentus character development. As I said, it starts in those last moments in 'Chosen', telling Buffy 'no'. Being a hero just then is enough - he doesn't need her love.
I realise this is an unfashionable opinion, but I think it started even earlier than that. Spike sees Buffy as the embodiment of everything good and right. (Not unlike Angel in the earlier seasons, with the vital difference - as you've talked about yourself earlier - that Angel also saw her as pure and innocent, while Spike is only too well aware of Buffy's weaknesses and dark sides, and accepts them anyway.) But Spike's interest in a sexual or romantic relationship with her pretty much died on her bathroom floor in season 6. He loves her for who and what she is, but it's more akin to love-of-God than sexual love (I can never remember which Greek term is which - agape and eros respectively, isn't it?).

"When I tell you that I love you, it's not because I want you, or 'cause I can't have you - it has nothing to do with me."
(Touched)

I wouldn't argue that he has no sexual interest in her - after all, Spike is drenched in testosterone and SMG was twice voted the World's Sexiest Woman - but I think that first, he feels he's proven himself unworthy of her, and second, that thanks to their history, unless she initiated things herself in a fairly blatant manner, he wouldn't let his thoughts even go there.

As for his decision to be a hero, I think it goes back to the first days after he got his soul. Arguably before, but then he was mostly doing it to please Buffy, or to be the sort of person Buffy would love. Post-soul, I believe he's doing it for himself:

BUFFY: Don't start out by saying you're sorry.
SPIKE: I didn't come to atone.
BUFFY: Then what the hell do you want?
SPIKE: Only to help you.
BUPFY: Help me what?
SPIKE: I was kinda hoping you'd tell me. You're the Slayer. Connected to visions, the long line of worthies. Riqht? I'm just a guy with his ear to the ground, but even I can feel it: something's coming.

and

BUFFY: Since when did you become the champion of the people?
SPIKE: I didn't. I'm just a guy who can lend a hand, if you let me.
(Beneath You)

The thing is, in Buffy S7 Spike is still being a hero for what might be considered selfish reasons - no longer to get into Buffy's pants, but rather to atone for all the evil he's done (and, of course, he considers the evil he did to Buffy herself as one of his biggest crimes that demands atonement).

"William's a good boy. Carries the water, carries the sin. It's supposed to get easier, innit? It's supposed to help to help. Except it doesn't. And it's still so heavy..."
(Same Time Same Place)

What I think the moments from Angel S5 you highlight mean is that Spike is moving to the next level: he's no longer being a hero to make himself feel better but, to misquote Faith, simply "because it's right."

[elisi]

I must admit that in a world not governed by rival TV networks, Spike the Impulsive would almost certainly have gone to visit Buffy even if he did then choose to forge a new destiny for himself as a hero.
Indeed. But such is life... *sigh*

But I think you've justified it as well as anyone could!
Thank you. :) I still remember all the arguments after Harm's Way first aired - was his reason for staying good enough?

I realise this is an unfashionable opinion, but I think it started even earlier than that.
Unpopular? I almost wrote something similar. He's been fighting the good fight for years! ("I know you'll never love me..." The Gift)

I wouldn't argue that he has no sexual interest in her - after all, Spike is drenched in testosterone and SMG was twice voted the World's Sexiest Woman - but I think that first, he feels he's proven himself unworthy of her, and second, that thanks to their history, unless she initiated things herself in a fairly blatant manner, he wouldn't let his thoughts even go there.
Well what did he expect when he set off? Platonic friendship? I don't think so. But - see this is where the fanfic thing comes in. There are a *lot* of people who have these 2 opinions (often entwined):

1) Spike is so disillusioned with Buffy (the B/A kiss being the last straw) that he does not believe that she could *ever* love him. So whatever she tells him post-NFA he just shrugs and walks off. (In some instances because she's too damaged by what Angel did to her to *ever* love again!)
2) He's too good for her. He has this amazing, huge, giant selfless love, and she has to work *really* hard to prove that she's worthy of that.

Darn it, I didn't want to rant, but neither of those ever sat comforatably with me. If he holds back, then it should be - as you said - because *he* doesn't think he's worthy. He doesn't elect to stay in LA because he's scared that Buffy will 'use' him!

in Buffy S7 Spike is still being a hero for what might be considered selfish reasons - no longer to get into Buffy's pants, but rather to atone for all the evil he's done[...] he's no longer being a hero to make himself feel better but, to misquote Faith, simply "because it's right."
*lots of nodding* We are most definitely in agreement! And it all adds up to very nice character development. (And we can add 'Damage' as another step of course.)

[sp23.livejournal.com]

The thing is with Spike is that, as complicated as his relationship with Buffy was, his relationship with Angel is probably 100 times more complicated.

I don't really like you. Suppose I never will.

Maybe he doesn't like Angel, but he loves him. And I don't mean that in a slashy/shippy way. Angel/Angelus was a huge influence in Spike's life. And we saw in The Girl in Questions that they were a helluva lot closer before Angelus was souled than we might have thought.

Certainly as far back as School Hard Spike's face lit up when he first saw Angel. He didn't get pissy and angry until he realized that Angel wasn't coming back to the fold, and even worse, he was fighting on the Slayer's side. I think that Spike saw that has a horrible betrayal, much worse that protecting Missionaries in China or kicking him off a submarine.

I really don't think that Spike started hating Angel/Angelus until Angelus broke free in Season 2 and took so much pleasure in tormenting a crippled Spike (and reclaiming Drusilla who had belonged (probably) exclusively to Spike for over eighty years). After Spike fell in love with Buffy, that was just one more reason to hate Angel - Buffy would never love him in the way that she (had) loved Angel.

But as much as he hated/envied/was jealous of Angel, he also realized that since Giles and Buffy weren't going to help Angel out of the mess he'd created, Spike had to stay and fight with him.

Because the world needed him to be a hero.

And because he still loved Angel.

[elisi]

The thing is with Spike is that, as complicated as his relationship with Buffy was, his relationship with Angel is probably 100 times more complicated.
Oh yes! *loves the Spangel*

Maybe he doesn't like Angel, but he loves him. And I don't mean that in a slashy/shippy way.
*nods a lot* To quote Drew Goddard:
David and James know how to play everything like they hate each other, but there is this weird underlying love, and I can't write that...

I really don't think that Spike started hating Angel/Angelus until Angelus broke free in Season 2
Having just re-watched 'Destiny' I have to disagree with that, considering how Angelus used Dru to hurt William, and the way they were at each other's throats in the mine scene in FFL. But I think they overcame that... (that scene from TGiQ that you mentioned). Spike might never, ever have behaved, but he became Angelus's best pupil.

But as much as he hated/envied/was jealous of Angel, he also realized that since Giles and Buffy weren't going to help Angel out of the mess he'd created, Spike had to stay and fight with him.

Because the world needed him to be a hero.

And because he still loved Angel.

Yes, yes, yes! :)

[molly_may]

He cares more about being a hero than getting Buffy

Oh God, I hope not! That would be the sound of my 'ship, crashing on the rocks. I realize that this might be more healthy for Spike than "It's still all about you, Buffy", but I don't love Spike because he's healthy. Losing the "love's bitch" aspect to his personality would be like cutting out the heart of the character to me.

It's not about 'fighting the good fight' - he does that anyway. It's about choosing Angel's fight as his own.

But see, to me that's no more character development than saying he was only good in S7 because of Buffy (a theory I don't think either of us ascribes to); he's following Angel's path, choosing Angel's fight, not his own. I don't see how it's character development for Spike to play Follow the Leader.

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

That would be the sound of my 'ship, crashing on the rocks.
Hee ! I just answered to Elisabeth in the same mindset.

Losing the "love's bitch" aspect to his personality would be like cutting out the heart of the character to me. Amen. :)

Unfortunately , the reasons for Spike not to go back to Buffy like he was dying to as soon as he was corporeal again were because of some RL issues for the actors. :(
(And the fact that Joss doesn't really care about love )

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

What she said "points upward". I wouldn't trade Destiny & Damage for anything but it's still Angel's path that Spike is walking along.

He needs/needed his own path and that's the one thing we will never get; maybe it would have been in that Spike movie that I suspect Joss never really considered, maybe it's happening in the Spike comics but we'll never seen it on screen and that's, IMO, a tragedy.

And so I turn to fan fiction where he can be the man with his own plan.

[elisi]

Oh God, I hope not! That would be the sound of my 'ship, crashing on the rocks.
Now I don't see it like that at all. I see it as Spike finally trying to be his own man - and then when he meets Buffy again they'll be something like equals. I *don't* want him to be Love's Bitch the same way he was with Dru: "I'm nothing without her!" In S5 he becomes *someone* all on his own.

I don't see how it's character development for Spike to play Follow the Leader.
It wasn't 'character development', but a result of character development. It was after he had 'found himself' more or less that he joined Angel's fight. As sp23 put it:

But as much as he hated/envied/was jealous of Angel, he also realized that since Giles and Buffy weren't going to help Angel out of the mess he'd created, Spike had to stay and fight with him.

Because the world needed him to be a hero.

And because he still loved Angel.

He could have gone to Europe - or Outer Mongolia - but he chose to help Angel. And I like that.

[swsa.livejournal.com]

Heeee. I was mentally composing my rebuttal as I scanned through comments, and how *not* shocked was I to come across this reply? We are, as ever, in agreement. Although, there's so much to think about in this essay that I've been commenting everywhere.

And yes, I do believe my heart shattered into pieces and let out an agonized "Nooooo!" at the very same line in this essay that yours did. A Spike who cares more about being a hero than about Buffy is not one that I have any interest in.

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

(Deleted my first comment , there were typos)
I went to read Molly_may's post , and found myself nodding at pretty much everything she wrote - the comments were interesting,too . I left one. So first thank you for the link to this thread!

As for Spike's presence on Ats , I have mixed feelings. I can't really judge Angel the series since i never watched any episodes , at the exception of season 5, and the main reason was Spike of course.
I think overall I liked him there , but I often thought that his characterization could have been sharper , more according to the one we had on Buffy.
I enjoyed several episodes though , like Destiny or Soul Purpose.It might have been more interesting for me if Spike had been there only to highlight some emotional points.
I'm still having regrets about his decision not to go to italy.

I read your entry with great interest .
I agree with you when you said that Spike believed Buffy loved him ( I think we discussed so many times of that subject to finally realizing the same thing : he loves her so much that letting her go is his gift to her) and it's not because he thinks he's not loved that he decides no to go to her.
There is never - anywhere - the slightest suggestion that Buffy would not be delighted to see him. Absolutely.

However, I don't necessarily share your further point of view .
I understand and I see why Spike would believe that it would be better for him to 'stay' a champion in Buffy's eyes , but honestly : He cares more about being a hero than getting Buffy.
I can't really accept this. I can't see Spike acting this way.
Not because he's a fool for love , no , but because everything is still about Buffy , during all the season and as much as Spike has learned to be on his own , as much as he's not relying on Buffy anymore to live his life , his love for her defines him.
You said it yourself : This is Spike for goodness sake! Mr. Begging for a crumb. Mr. 'That whole pride thing was just a smoke screen'.

It's a bit OOC for me to think that being a hero is more important to him than trying to build something with Buffy, even considering he's got fears.

I don't know if i make sense.. It is obvious that Spike 's decision to fight against the dark team is a good one , but why wouldn' it go along with contacting Buffy ? Why would it be hero VS lover ?
I want my Spike to stay a champion and to keep on being the passionate lover he used to be.

We all know that the reason why Spike didn't come to Rome were : 1/Joss couldn't go spuffy all the way without disappointing the bangel shippers ( TGIQ is clear about that ) , and 2/no SGM available.


I made peace with that because I am certain that after the big battle ( assuming they aren't dead ) , he goes looking for her. It's a bit late , but better late than never. :)

[elisi]

Deleted my first comment , there were typos
I do that too! Both the typos and the deleting. :)

So first thank you for the link to this thread!
My pleasure.

I think overall I liked him there , but I often thought that his characterization could have been sharper , more according to the one we had on Buffy.
Partly that of course has to do with the AtS writers getting used to him. Some of them (like S. de Knight) had done him on BtVS and of course got him spot-on - others, not so much. The other main thing is who he interacts with: On Buffy it was Buffy, and she (mostly) brought out his best and most noble side. On Angel it was Angel, and he brought out his bratty side. (That said I *love* the Spike/Angel interactions, and wouldn't change them for the world.)

I'm still having regrets about his decision not to go to italy.
JM had a contract...

I read your entry with great interest .
Thank you. :)

It's a bit OOC for me to think that being a hero is more important to him than trying to build something with Buffy, even considering he's got fears.
Well I think there might also be the factor that whatever they have, it might not be eternal (that's not to say that they wouldn't always love each other, but that he might not think that she'd want to spend forever with him...). But I think I dealt with all that in 'Maybe Someday' so I won't repeat it again. And - I think that it's very healthy for Spike to look for a reason outside of his love for Buffy. Because I think that 'purpose' is the most important thing.

Anyway, it's late and I am tired. I like my Spike to be a Champion *and* a lover, but in that order! :)

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

They even cut out the 'I love you'/'No you don't' lines from the initial flashback. From what we know in S5 of AtS, Buffy is in Europe and would be *happy* seeing Spike. She's waiting for him (although she doesn't know he's alive, but still) and there's no hint that Spike ever doubts that she wants him.

Yes! You're absolutely right. That's one of those points I was never 100% sure on, but I think you've convinced me here - all the points where I kept asking myself, "is this just confident bluster; does Spike really feel this sure?" and Angel's defensiveness now make more sense. "Soul Purpose" especially, which I'd thought even then was all about Angel's insecurity that Spike was going to take everything away, particularly Buffy (even though her archive dialogue that appears in his dream is from "The Prom," the very episode Angel himself broke up with her!). Good job, teasing that out.

I still owe you comments for your Spike and Angel post. (Which was brilliant, by the way. I'm still trying to think of how to best praise you on that one.)

[elisi]

That's one of those points I was never 100% sure on, but I think you've convinced me here
Yay! *does the happy dance* It really helped watching them all in fairly swift succession.

Angel's defensiveness now make more sense.
Just thought about Hellbound and Angel's "Spike only cares about himself' and Fred's "And Buffy!" - Spike/Buffy is obviously a confirmed relationship.

Soul Purpose" especially
It's hard to tease out all the aspects of that one! And as I said in a different essay - when 'Doyle' is revealed as a fake, Spike (accidentally) gets Angel's approval (which is obviously what he always wanted):
CORDELIA: And you called this guy the big hero?
SPIKE: (to Angel) You called me a hero?
ANGEL: I didn't know you were eating people.
SPIKE: It was a taste test, you git.

Anyway, I'm happy to have *you* in my corner! :) Much as I love Buffy/Spike I do love seeing him finding his own feet.

Which was brilliant, by the way. I'm still trying to think of how to best praise you on that one.
Squee! And I was very worried that I'd just repeat what had been said a million times before...

[spikeylover.livejournal.com]

All of you make good points.

Confusing post alert..

For me, season seven Spike is more of a Lancelot/knight type and he sees Buffy as his leader, or his queen (or whatever). It fits in with what Drusilla saw in he vision before she sired him, and also with Buffy making him her champion. OTOH, he loves her deeply but he's NEVER going to make a move on her because of the night in the bathroom..

To be honest, Buffy seems to be the reason for the confusion for me and Spike, because she's confused. She seems to wants it all and nothing at the same time. (Cookie dough??) The moment Spike gives an impression that he might not love her like THAT, she's inviting him to lie with her. The next day she's telling him to let her know how he feels--not to send mixed signals. OF course, he tells her he DOES love her like THAT, because it could only be the best night of his life if this was the case. Suddenly, she's bee-lining it to Angel and now Angel's telling her he loves her like THAT (and they can be together) and surprise surprise, it's not forever for Buffy but maybe someday if ever and she's now beelining back to Spike and downplaying everything about Angel..

On ATS, Angel plays the confident game when in reality he's not at all. He does it IMO, to make Spike doubt himself, because he's obviously confused, too.

I'm not sure what happened in the basement that final night, but IMO, if they had sex I'm thinking that fits in more with your theory. Still, I can't wrap my head around Spike leaving Buffy without at least letting her know he's alive because he knows she has abandonment issues, especially if he really thought she loved him.

I guess for me, if I think of everything that happened--it makes the most sense if he didn't believe she loved him and that he was afraid to face her because his hopes would be dashed.

[elisi]

To be honest, Buffy seems to be the reason for the confusion for me and Spike, because she's confused. She seems to wants it all and nothing at the same time.
Yes, that is true. She's very young and only just starting out, really. Although I don't think she and Angel could ever work out - "Sometimes I do think that far ahead" is more of a 'I'll probably never see him again!' moment (Did you read my Chosen fic? I deal with a lot of Buffy's issues there.)

I guess for me, if I think of everything that happened--it makes the most sense if he didn't believe she loved him and that he was afraid to face her because his hopes would be dashed.
Now see that's exactly the scenario I *don't* like. Because it makes Spike a coward. And Spike was never afraid of loving. Yes I agree that being loved is a far scarier prospect for him than loving, but I don't want him to stay away because he's afraid. And - as I pointed out in my post - he shows no indication of worrying that Buffy will trample his poor little heart. He *might* have been thinking along Angel's lines in 'The Prom', since now she has an actual chance of a normal life, and there aren't going to be any grandchildren for the two of them. But I don't want him to be afraid. Because then he really *would* stop being Love' Bitch!

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

He cares more about being a hero than getting Buffy.

In Fool for Love he told Buffy:

If you're looking for fun, there's death, there's glory and sod all else

Glory/heroism, it seems to me that if he cares more about that than being with Buffy now he really has regressed. The tendency is there in End of Days already when he responds to her Maybe when with No, let’s just leave it and Go be heroes. I don’t think he’s afraid that she doesn’t love him, I think he’s terrified that she does. He’s spent both life and unlife in a state of unrequitedness, Cecily was above him, Dru was insane, Buffy was, well complicated. Unrequited is what he knows, in it’s own way it’s a comfort zone of sorts – if they don’t love him he can never really hurt them.

I do think he shows some growth on Angel, I don't think he was being presented as the moral centre who'd already learned all possible lessons. Sure he was able to make some very valid critcisms of other people's choices but if that form of truthtelling were an indicator of virtue S1 Cordelia would have been a saint. He'd sold out as much as the rest of them by Underneath as Hamilton noted.

But he definitely underwant some significant changes Destiny and more especially in Damage. I think he never had really considered the victims feelings, he was ashamed of his own, lusting after the kill, the rush of savouring the things he did to girls Dawn’s age, but had shied away from truly thinking about it from the other’s perspective. Fighting Nicki had felt more like an honorable battle between two equally matched opponents to him so he couldn’t, or refused to let himself, think about it from Robin’s point of view.

[elisi]

I don’t think he’s afraid that she doesn’t love him, I think he’s terrified that she does.
Oh I agree with that! (The post was written in haste - if I'd known so many would discuss it so much, I'd have been a lot more careful with my wording.)

I don't think he was being presented as the moral centre who'd already learned all possible lessons.
There's a difference between *being* good and making the right choices. Spike wasn't *better* than the others, but he didn't sell out in the same way. He never signed any contract - he quite simply helped out his grandsire.

Fighting Nicki had felt more like an honorable battle between two equally matched opponents to him so he couldn’t, or refused to let himself, think about it from Robin’s point of view.
And also he was seriously pissed off at him at that time. I wonder if anyone has ever written a scene where the two of them talk post-NFA. Anyway, Spike is very new to the soul having. Angel has a hundered years advantage in how to deal with the guilt!

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

You know, it's funny when I read Molly May, I agree with her. When I read you I also agree... :)

I'll try to explain. I became obsessed with BtVS when Joss has started Spuffy in earnest. I love earlier seasons and I love AtS, but my love lacks obsessiveness. I love Buffy without Spike, but I don't feel the thrill. I love Spike without Buffy but, when I watch AtS season 5 I don't feel that particular "awww..." I feel every time I rewatch Spuffy scenes.

I'm not sure about "regressing" Spike on season 5. I think Joss wrote himself into the corner - he practically sanctified Spike by the end of BtVS and he faced a serious danger of turning him into a Mary-Sue of AtS season 5. To avoid it, he has to take drastic measures - to downplay his martyrdom, to highlight his childishness, arrogance, irresponsibility. Writers walked a fine line but it turned out great.

But. As soon as Spike stopped being all.about.Buffy, for me he has lost something very important and very essential. Cerebrally I realise that he is written very well on AtS. Viscerally I can't make myself care. I mean - really care, the way I cared about him on BtVS.

I thought it would change as time passed. But it didn't. Sometimes I rewatch some episodes of AtS season 5 and Spike is just another character. A great character, but a chacracter, not THE character. The way BtVS of earlier seasons is a great show, but still a show, not THE show.

But we have fanfics to compensate it! :)

[elisi]

When I read you I also agree... :)
Ah, but I don't disagree *violently* with Molly. And I'm as Spuffy as either of you!

I love Spike without Buffy but, when I watch AtS season 5 I don't feel that particular "awww..." I feel every time I rewatch Spuffy scenes.
Well it's not possible to have that particular feeling without Buffy of course. But for me it's replaced with the 'Squee' of Spike/Angel. It's different, but just as enjoyable for me. :)

Writers walked a fine line but it turned out great.
*nods* I have a post about 'Soulless' brewing, where I'm going to try to distinguish between Spike being morally superior to team Angel, but not *personally* better. (It makes sense, honestly!)

But. As soon as Spike stopped being all.about.Buffy, for me he has lost something very important and very essential.
You just need to become a Spangel shipper! *g* Seriously though, the Spike/Angel dynamic is probably the most intersting to me out of any of the characters on either show - as can be seen from my fanfic. Not that I don't ship Spuffy, but Spike & Angel just - spark! And it's not a slashy thing really, it's just the way the bounce off each other. See I want Spike to be with Buffy for Buffy's sake - but for Spike's sake I'm just as happy to have him with Angel. And in S5 (and after) I think Angel probably needs Spike more than Buffy.

[prophecygirrl.livejournal.com]

I think Spike never actually went through with his plans to go find Buffy because he knew unconsciously, that they would just slip into old patterns with each other. Something had to be different this time in order for it to really work between them, and if it wasn't, then his "going out with a bang" really was the best ending for them.

I don't think it was a question of if he would go find her, but when. And the answer for all of S5 was "Not Yet".

Part of me also thinks that Buffy knew all along that he was back, and accepted this inherent time of growth for him, too. I'm not even sure Lindsey was responsible for that flash of light in a box, either. It's easier for me to picture Buffy asking Willow to help, anonymously, than to think that Lindsey had the mojo to pull that off. I just wish that he could grow into his own form of manpire hero, rather than following so closely after Angel's. But then, the reality was it was Angel's show.

Good thing I don't write fanfic, right? My 'ship or bust!

So basically, I'm agreeing with you.

Here's another good one for you, though -- why did Spike want the Shanshu?? I can't ever really reconcile Spike wanting to be human unless it was a) because Buffy wanted a human for a mate, and -- hello! Lots of backward character development there for spike, or b) because Angel wanted it, or people assumed it was his. Hate that one, too. It always bugged me that they had him asking so often about "getting to be a real boy" because it made his journey as a hero less noble.

[elisi]

Something had to be different this time in order for it to really work between them, and if it wasn't, then his "going out with a bang" really was the best ending for them.
::nods a lot:: Their conversation in 'End of Days' illustrates this perfectly - they're both trying, but everything is still so new and close to the surface that they don't really know how to deal with it.

I don't think it was a question of if he would go find her, but when. And the answer for all of S5 was "Not Yet".
::more nodding::

I'm not even sure Lindsey was responsible for that flash of light in a box, either.
Oh I have no problem with that. He got hold of the amulet after all.

I just wish that he could grow into his own form of manpire hero, rather than following so closely after Angel's.
Having just watched 'Soul Purpose' I think he sorta did... *g* And anyway, he'd just started out. If we'd had a season 6 maybe we would have seen something more and different.

Here's another good one for you, though -- why did Spike want the Shanshu??
Partly I think because he really could be with Buffy - fat grandchildren and all. But I don't think it was all about becoming human - a lot of it I think was about having a destiny. A specific purpose - and Spike is purpose guy!

[prophecygirrl.livejournal.com]

Sorry, just realized that in my long, rambling post, I never really explained that the time of growth for him would be figuring out exactly what type of champion he really was, what he wanted for himself, just as you have said. How could any relationship work if you don't know who you are apart from the other person?

[elisi]

How could any relationship work if you don't know who you are apart from the other person?
Exactly! (I've even had Spike state this to Buffy in a (rather long) speech in one of my fics! She was still annoyed that he never called though! *g*)

[gillo]

Fabulous discussion!

I do see Spike as progressing in AtS S5, for many of the reasons above this comment. We see more of his past, see the complexity of his relationship with Angelus and his growing ability to rise above the old jealousies and forge a partnership of equals. At the same time he learns more about himself, what his priorities are and the need to accept responsibility for himself - not necessarily simply atonement but an acceptance that he has a function in the world which is above self-gratification.

Doesn't stop me longing for more Spuffy, of course...

[elisi]

Doesn't stop me longing for more Spuffy, of course...
Obviously. And as prophecygirrl said (I *think* that's how she spells it...):

that the time of growth for him would be figuring out exactly what type of champion he really was, what he wanted for himself, just as you have said. How could any relationship work if you don't know who you are apart from the other person?

So he was going to see Buffy - just not yet.

[grave-tidings.livejournal.com]

I think Spike has mixed feelings all over the place about Buffy.

1. What he wishes with her.
2. What he wishes FOR her.
3. What he realistically thinks is possible with her.

He loved her enough to save the world for her and then get out of her way. I have no doubt he expected to die in the hellmouth and had made peace with that (i.e., the one with the shiny bauble always bites it).

Coming back from the hellmouth threw him for a loop. Watch the first few minutes after his resurrection - he's really thrown. Stammering and vulnerable and confused. He's at a loss what to say, what to do. It's not just from being a ghost, it's from not being dead. Finished.

He says repeatedly throughout the episode that he wants to die. Even at the end, he doesn't want to live, he just doesn't want to be sucked into hell.

He gave Buffy the world so that she could have the life she deserved. That doesn't mean he doesn't wish she'd want to live her life with him. That doesn't mean he doesn't dream of knocking on her door and having her jump into his arms.

But this is Buffy. The "why does it have to mean anything?" girl.

During the JM event on the QM, David Fury was asked about this. This is a writer who was brought over from thinking Spike was vampire-scum to a souled, redeemable character. He was on our side by the time AtS5 rolled around. His take on it was that yes, Spike was afraid of Buffy's reaction. He feared she'd say, "Yeah, you burned up and sacrificed yourself and saved the world for me and I thought you were a hero. Turns out,. you're just needy."

The way I see it, if Spike is afraid, then *Buffy made him afraid*. She wore him down and wore him out. She used him *up* in addition to using him. She managed to break him in a way Angelus never did. In some inner, crucial way, Spike has given up on *Buffy*.

He's done his absolute best. He made up for his (to his way of thinking) failure on the tower - he saved the girl, her sister, the world. He *gave her* the world. He tolerated and endured her abusing him physically and emotionally.

The love Spike dreamed of with Buffy and the treatment he received was always miles apart. Perhaps now he's realistic enough to know that, with Buffy, what he dreams is impossible. It's only a dream, and it's not real. Not because *he* isn't real, but because Buffy is incapable of loving anyone that way.

Whether that's because she's too young, or too busy being the Slayer, or Angel ruined her trust... whatever. The feelings simply aren't there. I question whether Spike isn't wary and mistrustful more than he's afraid.

Spike overcame so much - even the final temptation when he saw Buffy kissing Angel - after all, Spike *never* got a reception like that.

I think getting a soul and the guilt that accompanied that convinced Spike that he is not worthy of Buffy's love. If he stays away, for me it's because he doesn't trust Buffy to have changed or grown up or whatever has to happen for her to love him. I think he told the truth when he told Angel, "I knew I never stood a chance with her."

I don't like it. I'll rewrite around it as a fan writer because, above all, I want Spike to be happy. He wants to be with Buffy, so I create happy endings for him.

But something I've learned: in order to give Spike what he wants, I have to change Buffy as a character. I have to make her realize something, or grow up, or tweak her somehow from the BtVS character to make *her* worthy of Spike.

It's not Spike who's not worthy here: I've long thought it was Buffy who was incapable of progressing to the point that she is worthy of Spike.

Spike deserves better than he got. He needs a better Buffy to be happy. Just my frustrated writer's opinion at work, of course.

[elisi]

The way I see it, if Spike is afraid, then *Buffy made him afraid*. She wore him down and wore him out. She used him *up* in addition to using him. She managed to break him in a way Angelus never did. In some inner, crucial way, Spike has given up on *Buffy*.
Oh no. I don't see it like that at all! S6 Buffy used Spike, true. But S6 Spike wasn't a saint either. They used each other and it all fell apart in the most horrible way. But - S7 Buffy is different. S7 Buffy is cautious, but over and over and over again she helps Spike. Gets him out of the school basement. Tells him she believes in him. Gives him a purpose. When she 'uses' him, she tells him so ("I'm not ready for you to not be there."), no hiding. When Giles tries to have him killed, she sides with Spike 100% and everyone knows it. She opens up in Touched. She forces Spike to talk about it in 'End of Days'. Look at it carefully:

SPIKE: It may not mean that much to you, but—
BUFFY: I just told you it did. [It *does* mean something!]
[...]
SPIKE: What does that mean?
BUFFY: I don't know. Does it have to mean something? [Does she love him? She doesn't know... and 'I love you' are not words that come easily to Buffy. She never told Riley]
SPIKE: No. Not right now.
BUFFY: Maybe when...
SPIKE: No. Let's just leave it. [And then *he* bails!]
BUFFY: OK.
SPIKE: We'll go be heroes.

Sure the kiss with Angel was stupid, but she knew she screwed up. She was asking Spike's *permission* to sleep in her own basement! And she'd have left if he'd not asked her to stay. (Also Spike jumping Harmony's bones in 'Dsetiny' kinda cancels out anything Buffy might owe him for that one kiss with Angel - in my book at least.) Oh and I wrote a fic about the B/A kiss if you want to know how I see it. Changes canon a little to explore things.

Having thought about all this far, far too much, then I think Spike *is* scared of going to see Buffy in 'Harm's Way' - but he's afraid that she might love him, not that she doesn't. To quote a line from one of my fics: 'Loving was easy. Being loved was sometihng else altogether.'

[rahirah]

Alas, none of this explains why he never picked up a phone and told her he was alive.

[elisi]

SMG wasn't available...

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

You know, I found this post of mine that is pretty much about the same. http://avrelia.livejournal.com/tag/meta

and strangely, it's already written as a comment to yours ;)

[elisi]

THANK YOU! How had I forgotten that? I love it. :) (And have now pimped it.)

[swsa.livejournal.com]

There is never - anywhere - the slightest suggestion that Buffy would not be delighted to see him.

Yeah, I just can't agree with that. Spike is pretty much all bluster, and in almost every Buffy-related line (except for Just Rewards and Destiny, where I think he was pissed off enough that he was speaking from the gut), there's a ton of bravado and overwhelming fear. And I also think his "I expect Buffy would be happy enough to see me" reeks of insecurity. Of course she'd be happy to see him. Even people who hate Spuffy know that Buffy cares deeply about Spike and would rather have him alive than dead. I think in saying that, Spike's giving away ALL of his fears of what could happy when he sees her again. That indeed, she'll be happy to see him, give him a hug hello, and ask him how long he'll be in town for. Now, *I* don't think that's anything even approaching what would actually happen...I envision either lots of yelling and tears or else heartbroken silence that he didn't come to her sooner...but I do think that's Spike's greatest fear and what keeps him from going to her or calling her.

[elisi]

If I'd known this post would turn out to be such a discussion starter, I'd have been a lot more careful with how I formulated things.

See - it was written as a reaction against a certain type of fic where Buffy meets Spike post-NFA, is thrilled and stunned and jumps into his arms, only to have him back off all cold and huffy, because he doesn't trust her. And doesn't believe that she can love him the way she should. And that always makes me grumble.

Aaaaanyway - I *do* think that Spike was scared. Or maybe he just worried that he had nothing to offer. Or he couldn't see a future for them. But... I don't want that to be his *primary* reason to stay in LA. I don't want that choice to be all about her, because then he's not grown at all. It's probably part of it, but when he talks to Harmony he's trying to reach - to grasp for something that he can't quite formulate, but that he knows is there. He wants to matter. Wants to be something *more*. Lindsey f.ex. plays him beautifully:

SPIKE: News flash, sparky: Don't need your help. Been saving people long before you showed up.
DOYLE: Not like this. You just helped a person when there wasn't anything in it for you. That's not like the Spike I know.
SPIKE: Oh, is that right? And what Spike is that?
DOYLE: The Spike that's only out for himself. The one who does good deeds to impress...women.
SPIKE: (angrily)You'd best watch your—
DOYLE: I'm just sayin'. You did good.

Oh - and I also think he stayed because of Angel. Not that he'd admit that of course!

(Sorry - must run!)