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Why did Spike not go to Buffy?
ETA: This was essentially a rant and honestly I'm not sure that I mean it all 100%. Maybe Spike *didn't* think that Buffy loved him, who knows. The real reason Spike didn't go to Buffy was the fact that JM had a contract. And the writers had to find a reason...
*hates subject*
After my big Spike on Angel essay the other day,![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
molly_may wrote a post about how she thought that Spike didn't have much growth on AtS - and that he even seemed to regress. Now I can see what she means, and he certainly in some aspects went back to being very irritating, but that can mostly be put down to Angel. They bring out the worst in each other. And yes, on BtVS he often got to be far more layered ('Dead Things' would be a prime example).
But having done a swift re-watch recently of the beginning of S5 (watched 'Harm's Way' last night), I have to disagree with there being no significant character growth. I think it's there - and it's pretty big too. It just happens very quietly. And it begins at the very, very end of BtVS...
This is where watching 'Harm's Way' comes in - it's the ep where he decides not to go to Buffy. Why? Because he doesn't believe she loves him? No. Let's look at the evidece:
SPIKE: Go on, then.
BUFFY: No. No, you've done enough. You could still—
SPIKE: No, you've beat them back. It's for me to do the cleanup.
FAITH: Buffy, come on!
SPIKE: Gotta move, lamb. I think it's fair to say school's out for bloody summer.
BUFFY: Spike!
SPIKE: I mean it! I gotta do this.
BUFFY: I love you.
SPIKE: No, you don't. But thanks for saying it. Now go! I wanna see how it ends.
Right there: "I mean it. I gotta do this." He's being the hero and he's going to see it through.
"I love you."/"No you don't." That's him letting go of her. And of course he believes her... because look at what he says moments later (like a couple of minutes from his POV):
SPIKE: Buffy! Is she—
ANGEL: She's OK.
SPIKE: Where—where is she?
ANGEL: Europe, last I heard from her.
SPIKE: Wanna see her... Wanna talk to her.
ANGEL: That's gonna be tough.
SPIKE: You can't keep her from me.
ANGEL: She's not mine to keep... or yours.
SPIKE: Says you. You don't know what we had.
You know, that doesn't sound like a guy who didn't believe her. "You can't keep her from me."/"She's not mine to keep... or yours."/"Says you." That to me says pretty clearly that Spike thinks Buffy is his to keep!
"You don't know what we had." That's got nothing to do with sex - that's got all to do with their relationship. It sounds like a guy who suddenly realises that he got a second chance - and now can talk about that 'I love you'. Can change his response! If he really, truly didn't believe that she could ever love him, his conversation with Angel makes no sense.
Then of course he gets stuck at W&H and for a while he's just dealing with not getting sucked into hell. After that - he begins learning more about Angel's world. A world where the Powers That Be rule the roost and prophecies matter. The Slayer was created by humans to protect their own - but Angel's world is bigger. The stakes higher. And still, within what - half an hour after becoming corporeal - he wants to go to Buffy:
SPIKE: Well, screw this town, then. Screw this devil's funhouse, Angel. And screw you for good measure. I think I'll take the new flesh and bones across the pond back to Europe.
And Angel fully expects Buffy to be there for him:
ANGEL: Spike... stay. Please. Europe'll still be there after we've worked this out.
And then comes the Cup of Torment, and we see Spike grabbing onto his Champion identity with both hands.
SPIKE: Burned up saving the world, and now I'm back for real. Wonder why that is? Oh, wait. 'Cause I'm the one, you git!
Of course, when it all turns out to be fake, he goes right back to focussing on Buffy, and that she's his:
SPIKE: Yeah, I thought I'd push off, seeing as how I got somebody waiting for me.
And, although not happy about it, Angel does not doubt that a warm welcome awaits Spike:
SPIKE: Any message for Buffy?
ANGEL: Tell her you're a moron.
And we have this line later on:
SPIKE: I expect Buffy would be happy enough to see me.
There is never - anywhere - the slightest suggestion that Buffy would not be delighted to see him. We even have Harmony spell it out:
HARMONY: Girls don't care about stuff like that. Just one look at you, and she'll forget herself, and she'll get all tingly...
They even cut out the 'I love you'/'No you don't' lines from the initial flashback. From what we know in S5 of AtS, Buffy is in Europe and would be *happy* seeing Spike. She's waiting for him (although she doesn't know he's alive, but still) and there's no hint that Spike ever doubts that she wants him.
(The only two instances are both more than murky:
1. ANGEL: "No, you're less. That's why Buffy never really loved you."
'Destiny'
That's quite simply Angel letting Angelus out to play. Because what does Angel know of Buffy's feelings? "He [Spike] is in my heart." It's a punch that misses. And he knows it. Both before and after (as quoted above) he acknowledges that Buffy's waiting for Spike.
2. SPIKE: It's over. Just like that. Not that I thought I had a chance anyway.
TGiQ
First of all - he didn't think it was over before that. That's important. And then he starts covering. Not to mention that this is 'The Girl In Question' and the whole thing needs to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt. Like truckloads full. And as Andrew says:
ANDREW: The point is she's moving on. You guys do the same, and you might catch her one day. One of you, anyway. But you keep running in place, you're gonna find she's long gone.
And also, this is all half a year post-Harm's Way.)
So, going back to that episode, why doesn't he go? Well this is his reason:
SPIKE: I was on my way. Had a boat ticket and all. Then I put a little thinking into it. A man can't go out in a bloody blaze of glory, savin' the world, and then show up 3 months later, tumbling off a cruise ship in the south of France. I mean, I'd love to, don't get me wrong, but, uh, it's hard to top an exit like that.
This has rattled round in my head for hours now, and all I can get out of it is this: He cares more about being a hero than getting Buffy. And that - is huge. It really is quite momentus character development. As I said, it starts in those last moments in 'Chosen', telling Buffy 'no'. Being a hero just then is enough - he doesn't need her love.
Next episode ('Soul Purpose') 'Doyle' shows up. After he's revealed as fake Spike keeps fighting the good fight. And then in 'Shells' of course we have the other half of the statement:
SPIKE: It's what I want. I don't really like you. Suppose I never will. But this is important, what's happening here. Fred gave her life for it. The least I can do is give what's left of mine. The fight's comin', Angel. We both feel it... and it's gonna be a hell of a lot bigger than Illyria. Things are gonna get ugly. That's where I live.
See I think people get confused about that speech (and I think I have as well). It's not about 'fighting the good fight' - he does that anyway. It's about choosing Angel's fight as his own. But the initial decision - hero, not lover - came in 'Harm's Way'. And has nothing to do with Buffy's feelings or him not believing them.
(This post brought to you by my irritation after reading too many fics with Spike acting like some sort of Victorian maid, doubtful of the depth and authenticity of her (his) suitor's feelings, after he meets Buffy post-NFA. This is Spike for goodness sake! Mr. Begging for a crumb. Mr. 'That whole pride thing was just a smoke screen'. He might not think that a relationship is possible, but *not* because of her feelings 'not being up to scratch.' )
Oh and my parent's flight got cancelled and they're not arriving until tomorrow. Hence this indulgence.
ETA2: I also wrote Spike-POV-fic, trying to delve into what he was thinking: Self Reflections. Set just after Harm's Way.
*hates subject*
After my big Spike on Angel essay the other day,
molly_may wrote a post about how she thought that Spike didn't have much growth on AtS - and that he even seemed to regress. Now I can see what she means, and he certainly in some aspects went back to being very irritating, but that can mostly be put down to Angel. They bring out the worst in each other. And yes, on BtVS he often got to be far more layered ('Dead Things' would be a prime example).But having done a swift re-watch recently of the beginning of S5 (watched 'Harm's Way' last night), I have to disagree with there being no significant character growth. I think it's there - and it's pretty big too. It just happens very quietly. And it begins at the very, very end of BtVS...
This is where watching 'Harm's Way' comes in - it's the ep where he decides not to go to Buffy. Why? Because he doesn't believe she loves him? No. Let's look at the evidece:
SPIKE: Go on, then.
BUFFY: No. No, you've done enough. You could still—
SPIKE: No, you've beat them back. It's for me to do the cleanup.
FAITH: Buffy, come on!
SPIKE: Gotta move, lamb. I think it's fair to say school's out for bloody summer.
BUFFY: Spike!
SPIKE: I mean it! I gotta do this.
BUFFY: I love you.
SPIKE: No, you don't. But thanks for saying it. Now go! I wanna see how it ends.
Right there: "I mean it. I gotta do this." He's being the hero and he's going to see it through.
"I love you."/"No you don't." That's him letting go of her. And of course he believes her... because look at what he says moments later (like a couple of minutes from his POV):
SPIKE: Buffy! Is she—
ANGEL: She's OK.
SPIKE: Where—where is she?
ANGEL: Europe, last I heard from her.
SPIKE: Wanna see her... Wanna talk to her.
ANGEL: That's gonna be tough.
SPIKE: You can't keep her from me.
ANGEL: She's not mine to keep... or yours.
SPIKE: Says you. You don't know what we had.
You know, that doesn't sound like a guy who didn't believe her. "You can't keep her from me."/"She's not mine to keep... or yours."/"Says you." That to me says pretty clearly that Spike thinks Buffy is his to keep!
"You don't know what we had." That's got nothing to do with sex - that's got all to do with their relationship. It sounds like a guy who suddenly realises that he got a second chance - and now can talk about that 'I love you'. Can change his response! If he really, truly didn't believe that she could ever love him, his conversation with Angel makes no sense.
Then of course he gets stuck at W&H and for a while he's just dealing with not getting sucked into hell. After that - he begins learning more about Angel's world. A world where the Powers That Be rule the roost and prophecies matter. The Slayer was created by humans to protect their own - but Angel's world is bigger. The stakes higher. And still, within what - half an hour after becoming corporeal - he wants to go to Buffy:
SPIKE: Well, screw this town, then. Screw this devil's funhouse, Angel. And screw you for good measure. I think I'll take the new flesh and bones across the pond back to Europe.
And Angel fully expects Buffy to be there for him:
ANGEL: Spike... stay. Please. Europe'll still be there after we've worked this out.
And then comes the Cup of Torment, and we see Spike grabbing onto his Champion identity with both hands.
SPIKE: Burned up saving the world, and now I'm back for real. Wonder why that is? Oh, wait. 'Cause I'm the one, you git!
Of course, when it all turns out to be fake, he goes right back to focussing on Buffy, and that she's his:
SPIKE: Yeah, I thought I'd push off, seeing as how I got somebody waiting for me.
And, although not happy about it, Angel does not doubt that a warm welcome awaits Spike:
SPIKE: Any message for Buffy?
ANGEL: Tell her you're a moron.
And we have this line later on:
SPIKE: I expect Buffy would be happy enough to see me.
There is never - anywhere - the slightest suggestion that Buffy would not be delighted to see him. We even have Harmony spell it out:
HARMONY: Girls don't care about stuff like that. Just one look at you, and she'll forget herself, and she'll get all tingly...
They even cut out the 'I love you'/'No you don't' lines from the initial flashback. From what we know in S5 of AtS, Buffy is in Europe and would be *happy* seeing Spike. She's waiting for him (although she doesn't know he's alive, but still) and there's no hint that Spike ever doubts that she wants him.
(The only two instances are both more than murky:
1. ANGEL: "No, you're less. That's why Buffy never really loved you."
'Destiny'
That's quite simply Angel letting Angelus out to play. Because what does Angel know of Buffy's feelings? "He [Spike] is in my heart." It's a punch that misses. And he knows it. Both before and after (as quoted above) he acknowledges that Buffy's waiting for Spike.
2. SPIKE: It's over. Just like that. Not that I thought I had a chance anyway.
TGiQ
First of all - he didn't think it was over before that. That's important. And then he starts covering. Not to mention that this is 'The Girl In Question' and the whole thing needs to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt. Like truckloads full. And as Andrew says:
ANDREW: The point is she's moving on. You guys do the same, and you might catch her one day. One of you, anyway. But you keep running in place, you're gonna find she's long gone.
And also, this is all half a year post-Harm's Way.)
So, going back to that episode, why doesn't he go? Well this is his reason:
SPIKE: I was on my way. Had a boat ticket and all. Then I put a little thinking into it. A man can't go out in a bloody blaze of glory, savin' the world, and then show up 3 months later, tumbling off a cruise ship in the south of France. I mean, I'd love to, don't get me wrong, but, uh, it's hard to top an exit like that.
This has rattled round in my head for hours now, and all I can get out of it is this: He cares more about being a hero than getting Buffy. And that - is huge. It really is quite momentus character development. As I said, it starts in those last moments in 'Chosen', telling Buffy 'no'. Being a hero just then is enough - he doesn't need her love.
Next episode ('Soul Purpose') 'Doyle' shows up. After he's revealed as fake Spike keeps fighting the good fight. And then in 'Shells' of course we have the other half of the statement:
SPIKE: It's what I want. I don't really like you. Suppose I never will. But this is important, what's happening here. Fred gave her life for it. The least I can do is give what's left of mine. The fight's comin', Angel. We both feel it... and it's gonna be a hell of a lot bigger than Illyria. Things are gonna get ugly. That's where I live.
See I think people get confused about that speech (and I think I have as well). It's not about 'fighting the good fight' - he does that anyway. It's about choosing Angel's fight as his own. But the initial decision - hero, not lover - came in 'Harm's Way'. And has nothing to do with Buffy's feelings or him not believing them.
(This post brought to you by my irritation after reading too many fics with Spike acting like some sort of Victorian maid, doubtful of the depth and authenticity of her (his) suitor's feelings, after he meets Buffy post-NFA. This is Spike for goodness sake! Mr. Begging for a crumb. Mr. 'That whole pride thing was just a smoke screen'. He might not think that a relationship is possible, but *not* because of her feelings 'not being up to scratch.' )
Oh and my parent's flight got cancelled and they're not arriving until tomorrow. Hence this indulgence.
ETA2: I also wrote Spike-POV-fic, trying to delve into what he was thinking: Self Reflections. Set just after Harm's Way.
no subject
1. What he wishes with her.
2. What he wishes FOR her.
3. What he realistically thinks is possible with her.
He loved her enough to save the world for her and then get out of her way. I have no doubt he expected to die in the hellmouth and had made peace with that (i.e., the one with the shiny bauble always bites it).
Coming back from the hellmouth threw him for a loop. Watch the first few minutes after his resurrection - he's really thrown. Stammering and vulnerable and confused. He's at a loss what to say, what to do. It's not just from being a ghost, it's from not being dead. Finished.
He says repeatedly throughout the episode that he wants to die. Even at the end, he doesn't want to live, he just doesn't want to be sucked into hell.
He gave Buffy the world so that she could have the life she deserved. That doesn't mean he doesn't wish she'd want to live her life with him. That doesn't mean he doesn't dream of knocking on her door and having her jump into his arms.
But this is Buffy. The "why does it have to mean anything?" girl.
During the JM event on the QM, David Fury was asked about this. This is a writer who was brought over from thinking Spike was vampire-scum to a souled, redeemable character. He was on our side by the time AtS5 rolled around. His take on it was that yes, Spike was afraid of Buffy's reaction. He feared she'd say, "Yeah, you burned up and sacrificed yourself and saved the world for me and I thought you were a hero. Turns out,. you're just needy."
The way I see it, if Spike is afraid, then *Buffy made him afraid*. She wore him down and wore him out. She used him *up* in addition to using him. She managed to break him in a way Angelus never did. In some inner, crucial way, Spike has given up on *Buffy*.
He's done his absolute best. He made up for his (to his way of thinking) failure on the tower - he saved the girl, her sister, the world. He *gave her* the world. He tolerated and endured her abusing him physically and emotionally.
The love Spike dreamed of with Buffy and the treatment he received was always miles apart. Perhaps now he's realistic enough to know that, with Buffy, what he dreams is impossible. It's only a dream, and it's not real. Not because *he* isn't real, but because Buffy is incapable of loving anyone that way.
Whether that's because she's too young, or too busy being the Slayer, or Angel ruined her trust... whatever. The feelings simply aren't there. I question whether Spike isn't wary and mistrustful more than he's afraid.
Spike overcame so much - even the final temptation when he saw Buffy kissing Angel - after all, Spike *never* got a reception like that.
I think getting a soul and the guilt that accompanied that convinced Spike that he is not worthy of Buffy's love. If he stays away, for me it's because he doesn't trust Buffy to have changed or grown up or whatever has to happen for her to love him. I think he told the truth when he told Angel, "I knew I never stood a chance with her."
I don't like it. I'll rewrite around it as a fan writer because, above all, I want Spike to be happy. He wants to be with Buffy, so I create happy endings for him.
But something I've learned: in order to give Spike what he wants, I have to change Buffy as a character. I have to make her realize something, or grow up, or tweak her somehow from the BtVS character to make *her* worthy of Spike.
It's not Spike who's not worthy here: I've long thought it was Buffy who was incapable of progressing to the point that she is worthy of Spike.
Spike deserves better than he got. He needs a better Buffy to be happy. Just my frustrated writer's opinion at work, of course.
no subject
Oh no. I don't see it like that at all! S6 Buffy used Spike, true. But S6 Spike wasn't a saint either. They used each other and it all fell apart in the most horrible way. But - S7 Buffy is different. S7 Buffy is cautious, but over and over and over again she helps Spike. Gets him out of the school basement. Tells him she believes in him. Gives him a purpose. When she 'uses' him, she tells him so ("I'm not ready for you to not be there."), no hiding. When Giles tries to have him killed, she sides with Spike 100% and everyone knows it. She opens up in Touched. She forces Spike to talk about it in 'End of Days'. Look at it carefully:
SPIKE: It may not mean that much to you, but—
BUFFY: I just told you it did. [It *does* mean something!]
[...]
SPIKE: What does that mean?
BUFFY: I don't know. Does it have to mean something? [Does she love him? She doesn't know... and 'I love you' are not words that come easily to Buffy. She never told Riley]
SPIKE: No. Not right now.
BUFFY: Maybe when...
SPIKE: No. Let's just leave it. [And then *he* bails!]
BUFFY: OK.
SPIKE: We'll go be heroes.
Sure the kiss with Angel was stupid, but she knew she screwed up. She was asking Spike's *permission* to sleep in her own basement! And she'd have left if he'd not asked her to stay. (Also Spike jumping Harmony's bones in 'Dsetiny' kinda cancels out anything Buffy might owe him for that one kiss with Angel - in my book at least.) Oh and I wrote a fic about the B/A kiss if you want to know how I see it. Changes canon a little to explore things.
Having thought about all this far, far too much, then I think Spike *is* scared of going to see Buffy in 'Harm's Way' - but he's afraid that she might love him, not that she doesn't. To quote a line from one of my fics: 'Loving was easy. Being loved was sometihng else altogether.'