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Why did Spike not go to Buffy?
ETA: This was essentially a rant and honestly I'm not sure that I mean it all 100%. Maybe Spike *didn't* think that Buffy loved him, who knows. The real reason Spike didn't go to Buffy was the fact that JM had a contract. And the writers had to find a reason...
*hates subject*
After my big Spike on Angel essay the other day,![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
molly_may wrote a post about how she thought that Spike didn't have much growth on AtS - and that he even seemed to regress. Now I can see what she means, and he certainly in some aspects went back to being very irritating, but that can mostly be put down to Angel. They bring out the worst in each other. And yes, on BtVS he often got to be far more layered ('Dead Things' would be a prime example).
But having done a swift re-watch recently of the beginning of S5 (watched 'Harm's Way' last night), I have to disagree with there being no significant character growth. I think it's there - and it's pretty big too. It just happens very quietly. And it begins at the very, very end of BtVS...
This is where watching 'Harm's Way' comes in - it's the ep where he decides not to go to Buffy. Why? Because he doesn't believe she loves him? No. Let's look at the evidece:
SPIKE: Go on, then.
BUFFY: No. No, you've done enough. You could still—
SPIKE: No, you've beat them back. It's for me to do the cleanup.
FAITH: Buffy, come on!
SPIKE: Gotta move, lamb. I think it's fair to say school's out for bloody summer.
BUFFY: Spike!
SPIKE: I mean it! I gotta do this.
BUFFY: I love you.
SPIKE: No, you don't. But thanks for saying it. Now go! I wanna see how it ends.
Right there: "I mean it. I gotta do this." He's being the hero and he's going to see it through.
"I love you."/"No you don't." That's him letting go of her. And of course he believes her... because look at what he says moments later (like a couple of minutes from his POV):
SPIKE: Buffy! Is she—
ANGEL: She's OK.
SPIKE: Where—where is she?
ANGEL: Europe, last I heard from her.
SPIKE: Wanna see her... Wanna talk to her.
ANGEL: That's gonna be tough.
SPIKE: You can't keep her from me.
ANGEL: She's not mine to keep... or yours.
SPIKE: Says you. You don't know what we had.
You know, that doesn't sound like a guy who didn't believe her. "You can't keep her from me."/"She's not mine to keep... or yours."/"Says you." That to me says pretty clearly that Spike thinks Buffy is his to keep!
"You don't know what we had." That's got nothing to do with sex - that's got all to do with their relationship. It sounds like a guy who suddenly realises that he got a second chance - and now can talk about that 'I love you'. Can change his response! If he really, truly didn't believe that she could ever love him, his conversation with Angel makes no sense.
Then of course he gets stuck at W&H and for a while he's just dealing with not getting sucked into hell. After that - he begins learning more about Angel's world. A world where the Powers That Be rule the roost and prophecies matter. The Slayer was created by humans to protect their own - but Angel's world is bigger. The stakes higher. And still, within what - half an hour after becoming corporeal - he wants to go to Buffy:
SPIKE: Well, screw this town, then. Screw this devil's funhouse, Angel. And screw you for good measure. I think I'll take the new flesh and bones across the pond back to Europe.
And Angel fully expects Buffy to be there for him:
ANGEL: Spike... stay. Please. Europe'll still be there after we've worked this out.
And then comes the Cup of Torment, and we see Spike grabbing onto his Champion identity with both hands.
SPIKE: Burned up saving the world, and now I'm back for real. Wonder why that is? Oh, wait. 'Cause I'm the one, you git!
Of course, when it all turns out to be fake, he goes right back to focussing on Buffy, and that she's his:
SPIKE: Yeah, I thought I'd push off, seeing as how I got somebody waiting for me.
And, although not happy about it, Angel does not doubt that a warm welcome awaits Spike:
SPIKE: Any message for Buffy?
ANGEL: Tell her you're a moron.
And we have this line later on:
SPIKE: I expect Buffy would be happy enough to see me.
There is never - anywhere - the slightest suggestion that Buffy would not be delighted to see him. We even have Harmony spell it out:
HARMONY: Girls don't care about stuff like that. Just one look at you, and she'll forget herself, and she'll get all tingly...
They even cut out the 'I love you'/'No you don't' lines from the initial flashback. From what we know in S5 of AtS, Buffy is in Europe and would be *happy* seeing Spike. She's waiting for him (although she doesn't know he's alive, but still) and there's no hint that Spike ever doubts that she wants him.
(The only two instances are both more than murky:
1. ANGEL: "No, you're less. That's why Buffy never really loved you."
'Destiny'
That's quite simply Angel letting Angelus out to play. Because what does Angel know of Buffy's feelings? "He [Spike] is in my heart." It's a punch that misses. And he knows it. Both before and after (as quoted above) he acknowledges that Buffy's waiting for Spike.
2. SPIKE: It's over. Just like that. Not that I thought I had a chance anyway.
TGiQ
First of all - he didn't think it was over before that. That's important. And then he starts covering. Not to mention that this is 'The Girl In Question' and the whole thing needs to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt. Like truckloads full. And as Andrew says:
ANDREW: The point is she's moving on. You guys do the same, and you might catch her one day. One of you, anyway. But you keep running in place, you're gonna find she's long gone.
And also, this is all half a year post-Harm's Way.)
So, going back to that episode, why doesn't he go? Well this is his reason:
SPIKE: I was on my way. Had a boat ticket and all. Then I put a little thinking into it. A man can't go out in a bloody blaze of glory, savin' the world, and then show up 3 months later, tumbling off a cruise ship in the south of France. I mean, I'd love to, don't get me wrong, but, uh, it's hard to top an exit like that.
This has rattled round in my head for hours now, and all I can get out of it is this: He cares more about being a hero than getting Buffy. And that - is huge. It really is quite momentus character development. As I said, it starts in those last moments in 'Chosen', telling Buffy 'no'. Being a hero just then is enough - he doesn't need her love.
Next episode ('Soul Purpose') 'Doyle' shows up. After he's revealed as fake Spike keeps fighting the good fight. And then in 'Shells' of course we have the other half of the statement:
SPIKE: It's what I want. I don't really like you. Suppose I never will. But this is important, what's happening here. Fred gave her life for it. The least I can do is give what's left of mine. The fight's comin', Angel. We both feel it... and it's gonna be a hell of a lot bigger than Illyria. Things are gonna get ugly. That's where I live.
See I think people get confused about that speech (and I think I have as well). It's not about 'fighting the good fight' - he does that anyway. It's about choosing Angel's fight as his own. But the initial decision - hero, not lover - came in 'Harm's Way'. And has nothing to do with Buffy's feelings or him not believing them.
(This post brought to you by my irritation after reading too many fics with Spike acting like some sort of Victorian maid, doubtful of the depth and authenticity of her (his) suitor's feelings, after he meets Buffy post-NFA. This is Spike for goodness sake! Mr. Begging for a crumb. Mr. 'That whole pride thing was just a smoke screen'. He might not think that a relationship is possible, but *not* because of her feelings 'not being up to scratch.' )
Oh and my parent's flight got cancelled and they're not arriving until tomorrow. Hence this indulgence.
ETA2: I also wrote Spike-POV-fic, trying to delve into what he was thinking: Self Reflections. Set just after Harm's Way.
*hates subject*
After my big Spike on Angel essay the other day,
molly_may wrote a post about how she thought that Spike didn't have much growth on AtS - and that he even seemed to regress. Now I can see what she means, and he certainly in some aspects went back to being very irritating, but that can mostly be put down to Angel. They bring out the worst in each other. And yes, on BtVS he often got to be far more layered ('Dead Things' would be a prime example).But having done a swift re-watch recently of the beginning of S5 (watched 'Harm's Way' last night), I have to disagree with there being no significant character growth. I think it's there - and it's pretty big too. It just happens very quietly. And it begins at the very, very end of BtVS...
This is where watching 'Harm's Way' comes in - it's the ep where he decides not to go to Buffy. Why? Because he doesn't believe she loves him? No. Let's look at the evidece:
SPIKE: Go on, then.
BUFFY: No. No, you've done enough. You could still—
SPIKE: No, you've beat them back. It's for me to do the cleanup.
FAITH: Buffy, come on!
SPIKE: Gotta move, lamb. I think it's fair to say school's out for bloody summer.
BUFFY: Spike!
SPIKE: I mean it! I gotta do this.
BUFFY: I love you.
SPIKE: No, you don't. But thanks for saying it. Now go! I wanna see how it ends.
Right there: "I mean it. I gotta do this." He's being the hero and he's going to see it through.
"I love you."/"No you don't." That's him letting go of her. And of course he believes her... because look at what he says moments later (like a couple of minutes from his POV):
SPIKE: Buffy! Is she—
ANGEL: She's OK.
SPIKE: Where—where is she?
ANGEL: Europe, last I heard from her.
SPIKE: Wanna see her... Wanna talk to her.
ANGEL: That's gonna be tough.
SPIKE: You can't keep her from me.
ANGEL: She's not mine to keep... or yours.
SPIKE: Says you. You don't know what we had.
You know, that doesn't sound like a guy who didn't believe her. "You can't keep her from me."/"She's not mine to keep... or yours."/"Says you." That to me says pretty clearly that Spike thinks Buffy is his to keep!
"You don't know what we had." That's got nothing to do with sex - that's got all to do with their relationship. It sounds like a guy who suddenly realises that he got a second chance - and now can talk about that 'I love you'. Can change his response! If he really, truly didn't believe that she could ever love him, his conversation with Angel makes no sense.
Then of course he gets stuck at W&H and for a while he's just dealing with not getting sucked into hell. After that - he begins learning more about Angel's world. A world where the Powers That Be rule the roost and prophecies matter. The Slayer was created by humans to protect their own - but Angel's world is bigger. The stakes higher. And still, within what - half an hour after becoming corporeal - he wants to go to Buffy:
SPIKE: Well, screw this town, then. Screw this devil's funhouse, Angel. And screw you for good measure. I think I'll take the new flesh and bones across the pond back to Europe.
And Angel fully expects Buffy to be there for him:
ANGEL: Spike... stay. Please. Europe'll still be there after we've worked this out.
And then comes the Cup of Torment, and we see Spike grabbing onto his Champion identity with both hands.
SPIKE: Burned up saving the world, and now I'm back for real. Wonder why that is? Oh, wait. 'Cause I'm the one, you git!
Of course, when it all turns out to be fake, he goes right back to focussing on Buffy, and that she's his:
SPIKE: Yeah, I thought I'd push off, seeing as how I got somebody waiting for me.
And, although not happy about it, Angel does not doubt that a warm welcome awaits Spike:
SPIKE: Any message for Buffy?
ANGEL: Tell her you're a moron.
And we have this line later on:
SPIKE: I expect Buffy would be happy enough to see me.
There is never - anywhere - the slightest suggestion that Buffy would not be delighted to see him. We even have Harmony spell it out:
HARMONY: Girls don't care about stuff like that. Just one look at you, and she'll forget herself, and she'll get all tingly...
They even cut out the 'I love you'/'No you don't' lines from the initial flashback. From what we know in S5 of AtS, Buffy is in Europe and would be *happy* seeing Spike. She's waiting for him (although she doesn't know he's alive, but still) and there's no hint that Spike ever doubts that she wants him.
(The only two instances are both more than murky:
1. ANGEL: "No, you're less. That's why Buffy never really loved you."
'Destiny'
That's quite simply Angel letting Angelus out to play. Because what does Angel know of Buffy's feelings? "He [Spike] is in my heart." It's a punch that misses. And he knows it. Both before and after (as quoted above) he acknowledges that Buffy's waiting for Spike.
2. SPIKE: It's over. Just like that. Not that I thought I had a chance anyway.
TGiQ
First of all - he didn't think it was over before that. That's important. And then he starts covering. Not to mention that this is 'The Girl In Question' and the whole thing needs to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt. Like truckloads full. And as Andrew says:
ANDREW: The point is she's moving on. You guys do the same, and you might catch her one day. One of you, anyway. But you keep running in place, you're gonna find she's long gone.
And also, this is all half a year post-Harm's Way.)
So, going back to that episode, why doesn't he go? Well this is his reason:
SPIKE: I was on my way. Had a boat ticket and all. Then I put a little thinking into it. A man can't go out in a bloody blaze of glory, savin' the world, and then show up 3 months later, tumbling off a cruise ship in the south of France. I mean, I'd love to, don't get me wrong, but, uh, it's hard to top an exit like that.
This has rattled round in my head for hours now, and all I can get out of it is this: He cares more about being a hero than getting Buffy. And that - is huge. It really is quite momentus character development. As I said, it starts in those last moments in 'Chosen', telling Buffy 'no'. Being a hero just then is enough - he doesn't need her love.
Next episode ('Soul Purpose') 'Doyle' shows up. After he's revealed as fake Spike keeps fighting the good fight. And then in 'Shells' of course we have the other half of the statement:
SPIKE: It's what I want. I don't really like you. Suppose I never will. But this is important, what's happening here. Fred gave her life for it. The least I can do is give what's left of mine. The fight's comin', Angel. We both feel it... and it's gonna be a hell of a lot bigger than Illyria. Things are gonna get ugly. That's where I live.
See I think people get confused about that speech (and I think I have as well). It's not about 'fighting the good fight' - he does that anyway. It's about choosing Angel's fight as his own. But the initial decision - hero, not lover - came in 'Harm's Way'. And has nothing to do with Buffy's feelings or him not believing them.
(This post brought to you by my irritation after reading too many fics with Spike acting like some sort of Victorian maid, doubtful of the depth and authenticity of her (his) suitor's feelings, after he meets Buffy post-NFA. This is Spike for goodness sake! Mr. Begging for a crumb. Mr. 'That whole pride thing was just a smoke screen'. He might not think that a relationship is possible, but *not* because of her feelings 'not being up to scratch.' )
Oh and my parent's flight got cancelled and they're not arriving until tomorrow. Hence this indulgence.
ETA2: I also wrote Spike-POV-fic, trying to delve into what he was thinking: Self Reflections. Set just after Harm's Way.
no subject
Oh God, I hope not! That would be the sound of my 'ship, crashing on the rocks. I realize that this might be more healthy for Spike than "It's still all about you, Buffy", but I don't love Spike because he's healthy. Losing the "love's bitch" aspect to his personality would be like cutting out the heart of the character to me.
It's not about 'fighting the good fight' - he does that anyway. It's about choosing Angel's fight as his own.
But see, to me that's no more character development than saying he was only good in S7 because of Buffy (a theory I don't think either of us ascribes to); he's following Angel's path, choosing Angel's fight, not his own. I don't see how it's character development for Spike to play Follow the Leader.
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Hee ! I just answered to Elisabeth in the same mindset.
Losing the "love's bitch" aspect to his personality would be like cutting out the heart of the character to me. Amen. :)
Unfortunately , the reasons for Spike not to go back to Buffy like he was dying to as soon as he was corporeal again were because of some RL issues for the actors. :(
(And the fact that Joss doesn't really care about love )
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He needs/needed his own path and that's the one thing we will never get; maybe it would have been in that Spike movie that I suspect Joss never really considered, maybe it's happening in the Spike comics but we'll never seen it on screen and that's, IMO, a tragedy.
And so I turn to fan fiction where he can be the man with his own plan.
no subject
Well, of course, that's the thing about S5 Angel. At this point, Spike has only had his soul for two years, and in those two years, he's fought in two major apocalypses. He hasn't really had time to figure out what his own path should be.
Yes, I wish that Joss had felt the commitment to Spike that Spike's fans had, but I don't really think he ever really had the handle on Spike that, say, David Fury or Drew Goddard had. I'm not sure if I would have wanted Joss to pen a movie about him. He'd probably have totally fucked it up. I'm with you; I prefer the Spike that his fans write, and the path they set for him. :)
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Now I don't see it like that at all. I see it as Spike finally trying to be his own man - and then when he meets Buffy again they'll be something like equals. I *don't* want him to be Love's Bitch the same way he was with Dru: "I'm nothing without her!" In S5 he becomes *someone* all on his own.
I don't see how it's character development for Spike to play Follow the Leader.
It wasn't 'character development', but a result of character development. It was after he had 'found himself' more or less that he joined Angel's fight. As
But as much as he hated/envied/was jealous of Angel, he also realized that since Giles and Buffy weren't going to help Angel out of the mess he'd created, Spike had to stay and fight with him.
Because the world needed him to be a hero.
And because he still loved Angel.
He could have gone to Europe - or Outer Mongolia - but he chose to help Angel. And I like that.
no subject
I guess, to me, he had already become someone all on his own, at the end of S6 of BTVS when he got his soul. Sure, he tells the demon "make me what I was so that I can give her what she deserves", which does make his decision about Buffy to a large degree, but it was *his* decision, his realization that he had to change, his fight to become more than what he was. I wasn't looking for Spike to become "his own man" in S5 of Angel, because to my mind, he already was his own man. He grabbed his own destiny on BTVS. On Angel, he just remained static, a good guy being a good guy.
Hee. We're never going to agree on this. But I certainly have enjoyed having such a long BTVS-oriented conversation all week.:)
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Ah yes, he *becomes* someone then. But what is he? Buffy *became* a Slayer when she was called, and we watched her struggle with who she was for 7 years. Getting the soul was just the beginning - for Spike as well as Angel. What does it mean to be a vampire with a soul? I can see Spike pondering these questions in S5 - what does it mean for him? Buffy had Kendra and Faith to 'compare notes' with - Spike has Angel. It's a process and if we had had a S6 I think we would have seen more of it.
As for staying in LA, then there are 3 options as far as I can tell:
1) He decides that being a hero is more important.
2) He's scared that she doesn't love him. (And *damn* but I hate that. The Spike I know and love ain't a coward.)
3) He wants her to have a normal life. (Which can of course be combined with either 1 or 2)
Anyway, I've dealt with Spike's decision in fic form far more in-depth. If you're curious you could check out chapters 5 and 6 of 'Maybe Someday'.
no subject
Hee. Anything but that, please (except I really don't like options 1 & 2 either). I would far rather Spike have some cowardly tendencies than have him turn into Angel and be all noble and stay away from Buffy for "her own good", without giving a damn about what Buffy herself might actually want, because I can't think of anything more supremely selfish, and it's the one thing he could do where I would look at Buffy and think "You can find a better guy than this".
Buffy had Kendra and Faith to 'compare notes' with - Spike has Angel
Poor Spike.
I can see Spike pondering those questions in S5 too, especially in "Soul Purpose" and "Destiny", two episodes I do really like a lot. However, I still find him virtually an unchanged character from "Chosen" to NFA. That's not necessarily a bad thing, as I like that character very much. But it doesn't change the fact that he was given very little of interest to do on Angel.
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::nods:: I recall it was LMPTM that really drove that lesson home for me. Apart from him telling Wood point blank that he is his own man now, he calmly and deliberately shows Buffy what he'd done to him, and with the same calm deliberation, explains not why he hurt him, but why he let him live, and then goes on to tell her that if he even looks at him again funny he will kill him. He doesn't seek to justify himself or win her approval, he just flat out tells her how it's going to be. I was really proud of him at that moment.
Then, in "Just Rewards" he declares that he'd sacrificed himself for "love, honor, and all the right reasons", which further reinforced my opinion that by the end of BtVS he'd moved beyond doing good merely out of love for Buffy to doing good out of a genuine desire to do the right and honorable thing.
I'd say more but I'm too sleepy to think.
no subject
he declares that he'd sacrificed himself for "love, honor, and all the right reasons", which further reinforced my opinion that by the end of BtVS he'd moved beyond doing good merely out of love for Buffy to doing good out of a genuine desire to do the right and honorable thing
I think that's evident even in "Chosen", when he insists on staying in the cavern to finish the job even though it means certain death. Buffy had just told him that she loved him! If he were doing it for selfish reasons, he would have ditched the amulet, and made a run for it with her, and hoped that he had stayed long enough to destroy the entire ubervamp army.
no subject
ITA. LMPTM marked the beginning of seeing Spike thinking and acting independently, and I think that thereafter his actions exemplified this internal growth. But when it comes specifically to the self sacrifice, for the longest time in S5, Angel stubbornly clings to the idea that Spike only saved the world for Buffy, and I've seen this same opinion come up quite a few times on LJ (much to my consternation). So, I like to cite that line from JR, because it's Spike spelling it out, unequivocally, exactly why he did what he did. No qualifications. No ifs,ands, or buts. Plain and Simple. Angel may have chosen not to *hear* it, or chosen not to believe it. And people who watched it may have chosen likewise. But, pointed out, no one can deny he said it, or claim that he didn't mean what he said (or can they???). To me, that statement isn't open to interpretation, although I guess you can try to wank anything, given strong enough motivation.
no subject
Hear, hear! That was always the goal for me with S/B, and I'd agree completely his detachment from Buffy had to be a large part of that, one way or another. Although I confess I felt him choose his separate path back in BtVS - in "End of Days," when he cuts off what she's about to say with "we'll go be heroes." From that point, I think he's committed to his own journey, with her or without her.
On AtS, I do think the message of Spike coming into his own is somewhat diluted - although there, just like you said, in "Harm's Way" and especially later in "Shells" - because of the way his journey ends up just getting absorbed by Angel's own last stand. I'd like to think if Spike's story were to continue, you'd finally see a story in which he not only chooses to do the hero thing, but does it without being a follower.
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And yes, I do believe my heart shattered into pieces and let out an agonized "Nooooo!" at the very same line in this essay that yours did. A Spike who cares more about being a hero than about Buffy is not one that I have any interest in.
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