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Why did Spike not go to Buffy?
ETA: This was essentially a rant and honestly I'm not sure that I mean it all 100%. Maybe Spike *didn't* think that Buffy loved him, who knows. The real reason Spike didn't go to Buffy was the fact that JM had a contract. And the writers had to find a reason...
*hates subject*
After my big Spike on Angel essay the other day,![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
molly_may wrote a post about how she thought that Spike didn't have much growth on AtS - and that he even seemed to regress. Now I can see what she means, and he certainly in some aspects went back to being very irritating, but that can mostly be put down to Angel. They bring out the worst in each other. And yes, on BtVS he often got to be far more layered ('Dead Things' would be a prime example).
But having done a swift re-watch recently of the beginning of S5 (watched 'Harm's Way' last night), I have to disagree with there being no significant character growth. I think it's there - and it's pretty big too. It just happens very quietly. And it begins at the very, very end of BtVS...
This is where watching 'Harm's Way' comes in - it's the ep where he decides not to go to Buffy. Why? Because he doesn't believe she loves him? No. Let's look at the evidece:
SPIKE: Go on, then.
BUFFY: No. No, you've done enough. You could still—
SPIKE: No, you've beat them back. It's for me to do the cleanup.
FAITH: Buffy, come on!
SPIKE: Gotta move, lamb. I think it's fair to say school's out for bloody summer.
BUFFY: Spike!
SPIKE: I mean it! I gotta do this.
BUFFY: I love you.
SPIKE: No, you don't. But thanks for saying it. Now go! I wanna see how it ends.
Right there: "I mean it. I gotta do this." He's being the hero and he's going to see it through.
"I love you."/"No you don't." That's him letting go of her. And of course he believes her... because look at what he says moments later (like a couple of minutes from his POV):
SPIKE: Buffy! Is she—
ANGEL: She's OK.
SPIKE: Where—where is she?
ANGEL: Europe, last I heard from her.
SPIKE: Wanna see her... Wanna talk to her.
ANGEL: That's gonna be tough.
SPIKE: You can't keep her from me.
ANGEL: She's not mine to keep... or yours.
SPIKE: Says you. You don't know what we had.
You know, that doesn't sound like a guy who didn't believe her. "You can't keep her from me."/"She's not mine to keep... or yours."/"Says you." That to me says pretty clearly that Spike thinks Buffy is his to keep!
"You don't know what we had." That's got nothing to do with sex - that's got all to do with their relationship. It sounds like a guy who suddenly realises that he got a second chance - and now can talk about that 'I love you'. Can change his response! If he really, truly didn't believe that she could ever love him, his conversation with Angel makes no sense.
Then of course he gets stuck at W&H and for a while he's just dealing with not getting sucked into hell. After that - he begins learning more about Angel's world. A world where the Powers That Be rule the roost and prophecies matter. The Slayer was created by humans to protect their own - but Angel's world is bigger. The stakes higher. And still, within what - half an hour after becoming corporeal - he wants to go to Buffy:
SPIKE: Well, screw this town, then. Screw this devil's funhouse, Angel. And screw you for good measure. I think I'll take the new flesh and bones across the pond back to Europe.
And Angel fully expects Buffy to be there for him:
ANGEL: Spike... stay. Please. Europe'll still be there after we've worked this out.
And then comes the Cup of Torment, and we see Spike grabbing onto his Champion identity with both hands.
SPIKE: Burned up saving the world, and now I'm back for real. Wonder why that is? Oh, wait. 'Cause I'm the one, you git!
Of course, when it all turns out to be fake, he goes right back to focussing on Buffy, and that she's his:
SPIKE: Yeah, I thought I'd push off, seeing as how I got somebody waiting for me.
And, although not happy about it, Angel does not doubt that a warm welcome awaits Spike:
SPIKE: Any message for Buffy?
ANGEL: Tell her you're a moron.
And we have this line later on:
SPIKE: I expect Buffy would be happy enough to see me.
There is never - anywhere - the slightest suggestion that Buffy would not be delighted to see him. We even have Harmony spell it out:
HARMONY: Girls don't care about stuff like that. Just one look at you, and she'll forget herself, and she'll get all tingly...
They even cut out the 'I love you'/'No you don't' lines from the initial flashback. From what we know in S5 of AtS, Buffy is in Europe and would be *happy* seeing Spike. She's waiting for him (although she doesn't know he's alive, but still) and there's no hint that Spike ever doubts that she wants him.
(The only two instances are both more than murky:
1. ANGEL: "No, you're less. That's why Buffy never really loved you."
'Destiny'
That's quite simply Angel letting Angelus out to play. Because what does Angel know of Buffy's feelings? "He [Spike] is in my heart." It's a punch that misses. And he knows it. Both before and after (as quoted above) he acknowledges that Buffy's waiting for Spike.
2. SPIKE: It's over. Just like that. Not that I thought I had a chance anyway.
TGiQ
First of all - he didn't think it was over before that. That's important. And then he starts covering. Not to mention that this is 'The Girl In Question' and the whole thing needs to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt. Like truckloads full. And as Andrew says:
ANDREW: The point is she's moving on. You guys do the same, and you might catch her one day. One of you, anyway. But you keep running in place, you're gonna find she's long gone.
And also, this is all half a year post-Harm's Way.)
So, going back to that episode, why doesn't he go? Well this is his reason:
SPIKE: I was on my way. Had a boat ticket and all. Then I put a little thinking into it. A man can't go out in a bloody blaze of glory, savin' the world, and then show up 3 months later, tumbling off a cruise ship in the south of France. I mean, I'd love to, don't get me wrong, but, uh, it's hard to top an exit like that.
This has rattled round in my head for hours now, and all I can get out of it is this: He cares more about being a hero than getting Buffy. And that - is huge. It really is quite momentus character development. As I said, it starts in those last moments in 'Chosen', telling Buffy 'no'. Being a hero just then is enough - he doesn't need her love.
Next episode ('Soul Purpose') 'Doyle' shows up. After he's revealed as fake Spike keeps fighting the good fight. And then in 'Shells' of course we have the other half of the statement:
SPIKE: It's what I want. I don't really like you. Suppose I never will. But this is important, what's happening here. Fred gave her life for it. The least I can do is give what's left of mine. The fight's comin', Angel. We both feel it... and it's gonna be a hell of a lot bigger than Illyria. Things are gonna get ugly. That's where I live.
See I think people get confused about that speech (and I think I have as well). It's not about 'fighting the good fight' - he does that anyway. It's about choosing Angel's fight as his own. But the initial decision - hero, not lover - came in 'Harm's Way'. And has nothing to do with Buffy's feelings or him not believing them.
(This post brought to you by my irritation after reading too many fics with Spike acting like some sort of Victorian maid, doubtful of the depth and authenticity of her (his) suitor's feelings, after he meets Buffy post-NFA. This is Spike for goodness sake! Mr. Begging for a crumb. Mr. 'That whole pride thing was just a smoke screen'. He might not think that a relationship is possible, but *not* because of her feelings 'not being up to scratch.' )
Oh and my parent's flight got cancelled and they're not arriving until tomorrow. Hence this indulgence.
ETA2: I also wrote Spike-POV-fic, trying to delve into what he was thinking: Self Reflections. Set just after Harm's Way.
*hates subject*
After my big Spike on Angel essay the other day,
molly_may wrote a post about how she thought that Spike didn't have much growth on AtS - and that he even seemed to regress. Now I can see what she means, and he certainly in some aspects went back to being very irritating, but that can mostly be put down to Angel. They bring out the worst in each other. And yes, on BtVS he often got to be far more layered ('Dead Things' would be a prime example).But having done a swift re-watch recently of the beginning of S5 (watched 'Harm's Way' last night), I have to disagree with there being no significant character growth. I think it's there - and it's pretty big too. It just happens very quietly. And it begins at the very, very end of BtVS...
This is where watching 'Harm's Way' comes in - it's the ep where he decides not to go to Buffy. Why? Because he doesn't believe she loves him? No. Let's look at the evidece:
SPIKE: Go on, then.
BUFFY: No. No, you've done enough. You could still—
SPIKE: No, you've beat them back. It's for me to do the cleanup.
FAITH: Buffy, come on!
SPIKE: Gotta move, lamb. I think it's fair to say school's out for bloody summer.
BUFFY: Spike!
SPIKE: I mean it! I gotta do this.
BUFFY: I love you.
SPIKE: No, you don't. But thanks for saying it. Now go! I wanna see how it ends.
Right there: "I mean it. I gotta do this." He's being the hero and he's going to see it through.
"I love you."/"No you don't." That's him letting go of her. And of course he believes her... because look at what he says moments later (like a couple of minutes from his POV):
SPIKE: Buffy! Is she—
ANGEL: She's OK.
SPIKE: Where—where is she?
ANGEL: Europe, last I heard from her.
SPIKE: Wanna see her... Wanna talk to her.
ANGEL: That's gonna be tough.
SPIKE: You can't keep her from me.
ANGEL: She's not mine to keep... or yours.
SPIKE: Says you. You don't know what we had.
You know, that doesn't sound like a guy who didn't believe her. "You can't keep her from me."/"She's not mine to keep... or yours."/"Says you." That to me says pretty clearly that Spike thinks Buffy is his to keep!
"You don't know what we had." That's got nothing to do with sex - that's got all to do with their relationship. It sounds like a guy who suddenly realises that he got a second chance - and now can talk about that 'I love you'. Can change his response! If he really, truly didn't believe that she could ever love him, his conversation with Angel makes no sense.
Then of course he gets stuck at W&H and for a while he's just dealing with not getting sucked into hell. After that - he begins learning more about Angel's world. A world where the Powers That Be rule the roost and prophecies matter. The Slayer was created by humans to protect their own - but Angel's world is bigger. The stakes higher. And still, within what - half an hour after becoming corporeal - he wants to go to Buffy:
SPIKE: Well, screw this town, then. Screw this devil's funhouse, Angel. And screw you for good measure. I think I'll take the new flesh and bones across the pond back to Europe.
And Angel fully expects Buffy to be there for him:
ANGEL: Spike... stay. Please. Europe'll still be there after we've worked this out.
And then comes the Cup of Torment, and we see Spike grabbing onto his Champion identity with both hands.
SPIKE: Burned up saving the world, and now I'm back for real. Wonder why that is? Oh, wait. 'Cause I'm the one, you git!
Of course, when it all turns out to be fake, he goes right back to focussing on Buffy, and that she's his:
SPIKE: Yeah, I thought I'd push off, seeing as how I got somebody waiting for me.
And, although not happy about it, Angel does not doubt that a warm welcome awaits Spike:
SPIKE: Any message for Buffy?
ANGEL: Tell her you're a moron.
And we have this line later on:
SPIKE: I expect Buffy would be happy enough to see me.
There is never - anywhere - the slightest suggestion that Buffy would not be delighted to see him. We even have Harmony spell it out:
HARMONY: Girls don't care about stuff like that. Just one look at you, and she'll forget herself, and she'll get all tingly...
They even cut out the 'I love you'/'No you don't' lines from the initial flashback. From what we know in S5 of AtS, Buffy is in Europe and would be *happy* seeing Spike. She's waiting for him (although she doesn't know he's alive, but still) and there's no hint that Spike ever doubts that she wants him.
(The only two instances are both more than murky:
1. ANGEL: "No, you're less. That's why Buffy never really loved you."
'Destiny'
That's quite simply Angel letting Angelus out to play. Because what does Angel know of Buffy's feelings? "He [Spike] is in my heart." It's a punch that misses. And he knows it. Both before and after (as quoted above) he acknowledges that Buffy's waiting for Spike.
2. SPIKE: It's over. Just like that. Not that I thought I had a chance anyway.
TGiQ
First of all - he didn't think it was over before that. That's important. And then he starts covering. Not to mention that this is 'The Girl In Question' and the whole thing needs to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt. Like truckloads full. And as Andrew says:
ANDREW: The point is she's moving on. You guys do the same, and you might catch her one day. One of you, anyway. But you keep running in place, you're gonna find she's long gone.
And also, this is all half a year post-Harm's Way.)
So, going back to that episode, why doesn't he go? Well this is his reason:
SPIKE: I was on my way. Had a boat ticket and all. Then I put a little thinking into it. A man can't go out in a bloody blaze of glory, savin' the world, and then show up 3 months later, tumbling off a cruise ship in the south of France. I mean, I'd love to, don't get me wrong, but, uh, it's hard to top an exit like that.
This has rattled round in my head for hours now, and all I can get out of it is this: He cares more about being a hero than getting Buffy. And that - is huge. It really is quite momentus character development. As I said, it starts in those last moments in 'Chosen', telling Buffy 'no'. Being a hero just then is enough - he doesn't need her love.
Next episode ('Soul Purpose') 'Doyle' shows up. After he's revealed as fake Spike keeps fighting the good fight. And then in 'Shells' of course we have the other half of the statement:
SPIKE: It's what I want. I don't really like you. Suppose I never will. But this is important, what's happening here. Fred gave her life for it. The least I can do is give what's left of mine. The fight's comin', Angel. We both feel it... and it's gonna be a hell of a lot bigger than Illyria. Things are gonna get ugly. That's where I live.
See I think people get confused about that speech (and I think I have as well). It's not about 'fighting the good fight' - he does that anyway. It's about choosing Angel's fight as his own. But the initial decision - hero, not lover - came in 'Harm's Way'. And has nothing to do with Buffy's feelings or him not believing them.
(This post brought to you by my irritation after reading too many fics with Spike acting like some sort of Victorian maid, doubtful of the depth and authenticity of her (his) suitor's feelings, after he meets Buffy post-NFA. This is Spike for goodness sake! Mr. Begging for a crumb. Mr. 'That whole pride thing was just a smoke screen'. He might not think that a relationship is possible, but *not* because of her feelings 'not being up to scratch.' )
Oh and my parent's flight got cancelled and they're not arriving until tomorrow. Hence this indulgence.
ETA2: I also wrote Spike-POV-fic, trying to delve into what he was thinking: Self Reflections. Set just after Harm's Way.
no subject
However:
He cares more about being a hero than getting Buffy. And that - is huge. It really is quite momentus character development. As I said, it starts in those last moments in 'Chosen', telling Buffy 'no'. Being a hero just then is enough - he doesn't need her love.
I realise this is an unfashionable opinion, but I think it started even earlier than that. Spike sees Buffy as the embodiment of everything good and right. (Not unlike Angel in the earlier seasons, with the vital difference - as you've talked about yourself earlier - that Angel also saw her as pure and innocent, while Spike is only too well aware of Buffy's weaknesses and dark sides, and accepts them anyway.) But Spike's interest in a sexual or romantic relationship with her pretty much died on her bathroom floor in season 6. He loves her for who and what she is, but it's more akin to love-of-God than sexual love (I can never remember which Greek term is which - agape and eros respectively, isn't it?).
"When I tell you that I love you, it's not because I want you, or 'cause I can't have you - it has nothing to do with me."
(Touched)
I wouldn't argue that he has no sexual interest in her - after all, Spike is drenched in testosterone and SMG was twice voted the World's Sexiest Woman - but I think that first, he feels he's proven himself unworthy of her, and second, that thanks to their history, unless she initiated things herself in a fairly blatant manner, he wouldn't let his thoughts even go there.
As for his decision to be a hero, I think it goes back to the first days after he got his soul. Arguably before, but then he was mostly doing it to please Buffy, or to be the sort of person Buffy would love. Post-soul, I believe he's doing it for himself:
BUFFY: Don't start out by saying you're sorry.
SPIKE: I didn't come to atone.
BUFFY: Then what the hell do you want?
SPIKE: Only to help you.
BUPFY: Help me what?
SPIKE: I was kinda hoping you'd tell me. You're the Slayer. Connected to visions, the long line of worthies. Riqht? I'm just a guy with his ear to the ground, but even I can feel it: something's coming.
and
BUFFY: Since when did you become the champion of the people?
SPIKE: I didn't. I'm just a guy who can lend a hand, if you let me.
(Beneath You)
The thing is, in Buffy S7 Spike is still being a hero for what might be considered selfish reasons - no longer to get into Buffy's pants, but rather to atone for all the evil he's done (and, of course, he considers the evil he did to Buffy herself as one of his biggest crimes that demands atonement).
"William's a good boy. Carries the water, carries the sin. It's supposed to get easier, innit? It's supposed to help to help. Except it doesn't. And it's still so heavy..."
(Same Time Same Place)
What I think the moments from Angel S5 you highlight mean is that Spike is moving to the next level: he's no longer being a hero to make himself feel better but, to misquote Faith, simply "because it's right."
no subject
Indeed. But such is life... *sigh*
But I think you've justified it as well as anyone could!
Thank you. :) I still remember all the arguments after Harm's Way first aired - was his reason for staying good enough?
I realise this is an unfashionable opinion, but I think it started even earlier than that.
Unpopular? I almost wrote something similar. He's been fighting the good fight for years! ("I know you'll never love me..." The Gift)
I wouldn't argue that he has no sexual interest in her - after all, Spike is drenched in testosterone and SMG was twice voted the World's Sexiest Woman - but I think that first, he feels he's proven himself unworthy of her, and second, that thanks to their history, unless she initiated things herself in a fairly blatant manner, he wouldn't let his thoughts even go there.
Well what did he expect when he set off? Platonic friendship? I don't think so. But - see this is where the fanfic thing comes in. There are a *lot* of people who have these 2 opinions (often entwined):
1) Spike is so disillusioned with Buffy (the B/A kiss being the last straw) that he does not believe that she could *ever* love him. So whatever she tells him post-NFA he just shrugs and walks off. (In some instances because she's too damaged by what Angel did to her to *ever* love again!)
2) He's too good for her. He has this amazing, huge, giant selfless love, and she has to work *really* hard to prove that she's worthy of that.
Darn it, I didn't want to rant, but neither of those ever sat comforatably with me. If he holds back, then it should be - as you said - because *he* doesn't think he's worthy. He doesn't elect to stay in LA because he's scared that Buffy will 'use' him!
in Buffy S7 Spike is still being a hero for what might be considered selfish reasons - no longer to get into Buffy's pants, but rather to atone for all the evil he's done[...] he's no longer being a hero to make himself feel better but, to misquote Faith, simply "because it's right."
*lots of nodding* We are most definitely in agreement! And it all adds up to very nice character development. (And we can add 'Damage' as another step of course.)