Faith. Or well, not...

[elisi]

I was wondering if I should post this, because I am so very tired of bitching about S8, but then I thought - why not? My fic hates me, and I want to feel I’ve done *something* today (apart from housework). And also I’ve pinpointed a very particular point of irritation. Spoilers for pre-view of issue 8 under cut.




And then we cut to Faith and Genevieve bonding and living the high life. Now this reminded me of something. Something very specific. From ‘Just Rewards’:

SPIKE: Said he could bring me back—body and soul—if I used our close personal relationship to double-cross you.
ANGEL: Tempting. So what'd you say?
SPIKE: You see, right there, that's the problem. You having to ask me that. I don't play for that side anymore, or haven't you heard?

[...]

SPIKE: And here's the kicker: I go in, and you go... pfft! Off to never-never-come-back land. And then... yours very truly will be running the show. Your cars, your fancy digs, everything—everyone—I deserve... will be mine.

‘Just Rewards’ pulled the same trick as ‘No Future for You’, but - although it is a cheap trick - handled it better (IMHO). Because we all knew that Spike and Angel had ISSUES stretching back centuries. That Angel(us) had been an utter bastard to Spike, and that Spike really, really didn’t like him. It wasn’t so much a case of ‘OMG Spike has gone *evil*’ as ‘Spike might just use this opportunity to *hurt* Angel’. But, as Spike points out in the first quote, we should know better. Yes he’s clearly delighted when Angel is hurt, and has great fun beating him up a little later, but... he knows exactly who he is. I remember when I watched it the first time, wondering what was up, how far Spike was going to take it. And the *second* Spike used the word ‘deserve’ I knew that the whole thing was a game.

Now, Faith... well for a start Faith and Buffy *already* put a lot of their issues behind them. Their lovely, lovely talk in ‘End of Days’ where Faith explains how, when in charge herself, suddenly understood Buffy’s inherent loneliness, is one of my favourite scenes of theirs. And not one from whence Faith will ever decide to doublecross Buffy. Ever. Implying as much is an insult, sorry.

And to point out the very obvious Spike/Faith parallels (from 'Dirty Girls'):

SPIKE: Bloody hell! What're you doing? I'm on your side.
FAITH: Yeah? Maybe you haven't heard. I've reformed.
SPIKE: So have I. I reformed way before you did.

(Also, ‘Just Rewards’ was *one* episode, the whole thing wrapped up in 40 minutes - we had what... 5, 10 minutes of worrying about Spike’s motives. In comics this stuff is far more drawn out, and therefore a LOT more annoying.)

Another thing about the scene is how adolescent it is. OK, so Genevieve is obviously still a teen (and fairly immature), but Faith is a woman. Ex-jail bird with a few apocalypses under her belt, but in the comics she’s just reminding me of a 16-year-old. Which annoys me. But a lot of that is down to the artwork...

Anyway, since I’m busy complaining, I though I might also share the companion piece to my Buffy post of a month ago (so this deals with issue 6, but, since Faith was going to go through with Giles’ plan, it can still be used. *sigh*):

First of all, two reviews:

Review by yourlibrarian.

Review by moscow_watcher.

Now moscow_watcher made an interesting point:

Obviously writers "rewound" Faith the way they rewound Spike for AtS season 5. In 2003 Spike turned into a "BtVS season 4 character" as soon as he has crossed over to "Angel". Today Faith is rewritten in a very similar manner, as a "BtVS season 4 character" - bitter, lonely escaped convict who doesn't have a purpose in life.

This I sort of agree with - except I think Spike and Faith were ‘rewound’ in different ways. Spike in AtS S5 behaves very much like S4 Spike - annoying and (c)rude, but this is obviously:

a) A defense mechanism.
b) The result of being near Angel.

But - he is in a completely different *mental* place. S4 Spike was purposeless, lost - even suicidal. AtS S5 Spike is a Champion, plain and simple. That is who/what he is now. Of course different things over the course of the season try to undermine him, and he grows in understanding etc, but he is essentially comfortable with himself - he knows that out of himself and Angel, he comes out top, morally. (I know this is *hugely* simplified, but I’m trying to get to Faith.)

Now Faith on the other hand behaves nothing like her S4 self - she does her duty, doesn’t complain, is friendly with her ex. Mentally however she’s right back to just wanting to run away (trying to purchase a fake passport of course echoing how she stole Buffy’s) - feeling worthless and fed up.

Now, I’m going to say that of course I can see why the chosen story for Faith is pretty much perfect. The themes and parallels are running around in lovely big circles, holding hands, and it is a far, far, far more satisfying thing than anything in S8 so far. Bringing her ‘back to the beginning’ as it were could be very interesting; being the ‘good’ Slayer by being the ‘bad’ one; sent off to kill someone, when she was once the target; being instructed to murder by Giles, just like Genevieve is by *her* ‘watcher’; the way it ties in with her history with Wesley and what he had her do in S4 of AtS; how there might be explorations of her childhood/relationship with her mother (which is obviously where all her problems began) - it could truly be a goldmine of Faith-y goodness. So, when I criticise, it is because I think that one particular aspect is ruining what could otherwise have been a pretty darn excellent story.

So - here is a point I’ve been thinking about re. ‘writing Faith into a corner’. Because I know what it’s like to manipulate characters, and the manipulation needs to be two-fold. Take my Spike/Dawn fic (since it is a good example of getting characters to do something they wouldn’t normally). I needed to:

1) Put them in a situation where the two of them getting together would be plausible. (Solution: Buffy stayed dead, the two of them hung out a lot, sharing their grief and becoming very close.)

2) Put them in a mental space where they would overstep a boundary they both knew to be wrong. (This one was almost easy. Spike, when unsouled, really doesn’t make the best decisions, going with what will make people happy - see helping Dawn raise Joyce - and Dawn has a crush on Spike/doesn’t understand that he is *evil* - see ‘Crush’)

Aaaaaanyway, as concerns Faith the writers certainly tried to nail the first one - Faith’s circumstances are very dire. And yet - we have to do a lot of the work ourselves. And, without more info, I can’t really say that it works for me. (*Why* is she living all by herself in Cleveland? You can all repeat ‘Faith is a loner’ until you’re blue in the face, but Spike was always a loner too. And yet look at him being drawn to the Scoobies - that he *hates* - in S4! Not to mention integrating into the AtS gang. Faith was friendly with most people at the end of S7, moreso that Buffy to be honest. Her isolation in the comics doesn’t feel like an organic development. But then neither does the castle or anything else for that matter. We really shouldn’t have to fanwank quite as badly just to get stuff to make sense.)

And as for #2... OK, we are told that she’s been trying to get hold of a passport, wanting out of her crappy life. But - that does not necessarily translate into being willing to commit murder. Because murder is Faith’s extra special red hot button. She mentions it casually in S4 of AtS, but I know that if I had to write a story where she accepted a mission like the one in S8, I’d have done something much more than what we’ve seen so far. Going back to my Spike/Dawn story, it would have been like setting it post-’Seeing Red’. Not sure if it could have been done. Going back to Spike again, we see that at the start of AtS S5 he’s pretty desperate not to be pulled into hell/to become corporeal again. But he won’t doublecross Angel to get what he wants, nor do it at the expense of Fred’s life...

Yes I know that there’s this whole apocalypse thing (which sounds rather far-fetched to be honest, since Genevieve is so obviously being manipulated), and killing her would be ‘a good thing’. But the whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And I think Faith is hopelessly out of character. As far as I’m concerned her name is Hope Lyonne (I think that was it?) and she just happens to have a story that’s somewhat similar to Faith’s... I’m still leaning towards the theory that these are all just wacky AU versions of our beloved characters that Joss came across in a drawer and thought he'd play with.

But - to look on the postitive side! One thing that struck me about Faith refusing to seduce Genevieve... she thinks that she’d be perfectly able to pull it off. Whatever knocks she’s taken, her confidence in her attractiveness and sexual prowess are undented.

In short: Great story, shame about the characters.

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

Agreed about the characters, Faith agreed far too easily. The orginal characters neither look or act like themselves. I am not sure about the story either. I have been left with the impression that Joss, and others, are more interested in playing with comic books.

They can afford a cast of thousands, all over the world, and special effects. Cos it is all in a comic, and only needs the artwork. That is what is spoiling it for me. They are not interested in characters or story, just what playing with comics allows them.

Joss has a new sand-box, and thinks the sand it better. It isn't.

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

They can afford a cast of thousands, all over the world, and special effects. Cos it is all in a comic, and only needs the artwork. That is what is spoiling it for me. They are not interested in characters or story, just what playing with comics allows them.

Exactly! None of these characters resembles what I saw on screen. Sure Joss, make the stories more flamboyant but don't change the characters motivations/psyche - that's why we love them so much .

[elisi]

The orginal characters neither look or act like themselves
So far Xander is the only one who feels 'real' to me. And whilst I never disliked Xander, having *him* as my main focus is just bizarre!

I am not sure about the story either.
Overall I'm very unimpressed (the whole Voll thing is just boring), but on its own the Faith arc works rather well (one single strand rather than 5 different ones). Shame she's not in character.

They are not interested in characters or story, just what playing with comics allows them.
It's like the new Star Wars films... (I still remember almost laughing when Darth Vader shouted 'Noooooo!' hearing that Amidala had died. And then came home from the cinema, watched Doctor Who ('Bad Wolf' 1.12) and it had a death scene that just knocked me out in it's utterly heartbreaking understatedness! You don't need effects if the characters and story are brilliant.)

Joss has a new sand-box, and thinks the sand it better. It isn't.
OMG I've written about that: Blue Sand.

[shapinglight]

I’m still leaning towards the theory that these are all just wacky AU versions of our beloved characters that Joss came across in a drawer and thought he'd play with.

About sums it up for me. Got a little annoyed the other day when I read a review stating that being turned into comic book form might be the best thing that ever happened to BtVS.

Not hardly.

[elisi]

a review stating that being turned into comic book form might be the best thing that ever happened to BtVS.
*points to icon*

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Frankly, nothing I've heard or seen about the BtVS 8 comics has excited me. They all feel like some AU that doesn't particularly appeal to me. They also do not seem to have grown organically from where the series left off.

[elisi]

Amen to everything. I have no idea why I keep reading them... I guess I keep hoping that at some point they're going to do something clever or worthwhile, but so far I've been disappointed every time. And the Warren ret-con just left me speechless...

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I started writing down some of my own thoughts about Faith's character development, but it's threatening to turn into an epic. You probably won't be surprised to learn that I come to rather different conclusions to yourself. :-) I might finish it eventually, but it's given me a different perspective on some of your points.

However, to avoid this becoming just a long, boring counter-argument, I decided to let Faith herself reply to your post. Take it away, Faith...


Faith and Buffy *already* put a lot of their issues behind them. Their lovely, lovely talk in ‘End of Days’ where Faith explains how, when in charge herself, suddenly understood Buffy’s inherent loneliness, is one of my favourite scenes of theirs. And not one from whence Faith will ever decide to doublecross Buffy. Ever. Implying as much is an insult, sorry.

Yeah, alright, so I know where B's coming from now. Don't mean she's perfect, and don't mean I won't chew her ass out if she screws up. Which is a kinda gross mental image, so let's move on. Sure, I wouldn't 'doublecross' her; don't mean I've always gotta do what she says either. If I'm tryin' to be one of the good guys now, means I gotta stand up for what I believe in. Do what's right, not what'll make B happy. Leastways, that's what I'm tryin' to do. Nobody's perfect, an' I always did have a weakness for hot baths. Not to mention stuck-up posh chicks with a rebel streak inside 'em, but then you already knew that.


*Why* is she living all by herself in Cleveland? You can all repeat ‘Faith is a loner’ until you’re blue in the face, but Spike was always a loner too. And yet look at him being drawn to the Scoobies - that he *hates* - in S4! Not to mention integrating into the AtS gang. Faith was friendly with most people at the end of S7, moreso that Buffy to be honest. Her isolation in the comics doesn’t feel like an organic development.

Hey, I never wanted to be a loner. Party chick, that's me; friends with everyone. But when they all try to screw me over all my entire life, what else am I supposed to do? Gotta rely on myself, 'cause there's only one person in this whole world I can trust, an' it's me.

Yeah okay, there's Angel too. If he ain't evil that day. And Buffy? Maybe. Blondie's got her own issues, an' if it comes to her or me, she'll choose her every time. Got a scar on my belly to prove that. No, I don't blame her for that, not anymore. Do the same myself in her shoes. Still hurts though.

I keep thinking things are gonna change. That this time, it'll be different... this time, I'll find 'the one'. Stupid. Everyone's got their own angle, even the good guys. Just some are more honest about it than the rest.

[elisi]

*buries head in hands*

I knew I should have turned the comments off!

Nobody's perfect, an' I always did have a weakness for hot baths. Not to mention stuck-up posh chicks with a rebel streak inside 'em, but then you already knew that.
Oh I'm not blaming you for any of that. Indulge away. I'm mad at that little dwarf guy (Trafalgar was it?) for suggesting that a hot bath and a friendly (evil?) shoulder could make you switch sides!

But when they all try to screw me over all my entire life, what else am I supposed to do?
OK, here's where I'm lacking info and am puzzled. Why would the Scoobies screw you over post-Chosen? It makes no sense to me. But if they did, then I can't say I blame you for being depressed. Leave 'em to it, I say, and go find Angel and Spike. I'm sure you three could work something out...

That this time, it'll be different... this time, I'll find 'the one'. Stupid. Everyone's got their own angle, even the good guys.
OK missy, I brought someone along to talk to you. Name of Riley, I believe you've met him? Very nice decent guy... take it away Mr Finn!

Riley: “Welcome to the story of the world. Things fall apart Faith. And evil – it comes and goes. But the way people manage is, they don’t do it alone. They pull each other through. If you weren’t so self involved you’d see that.”
Faith after a beat: “You have no idea what you’re talking about. Dude, you don't know me!”
Riley: “I know that it’s not just a job thing. I’m sure that there is some good looking guy - or girl - that done you wrong in there, too. But mostly I think you want to stay down in that dark place, because maybe it’s safer down there.”
Faith: “You are *so* out of line.”
Riley: “No. See I don’t think so."

Faith dearest, the man has a point. And I think it was a point that had already got across to you a long time ago. But apparently Joss didn't think so and sent you back to Summer School. Sorry. Dunno what you did to deserve that.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

[continued due to word-count limit]

But - that does not necessarily translate into being willing to commit murder. Because murder is Faith’s extra special red hot button.

Who said anything about murder? I'm on a covert ops mission to take out a rogue Slayer. Y'know, last time somebody did that, everybody called her a hero. Don't remember many people shedding tears over the chick she stabbed in the gut and left for dead.

You ever killed anyone, E? I have. Includin' vampires - an' seems it's the fashion to count them as people these days - I've killed hundreds. An' yeah, I got out of control for a while. Started enjoyin' it a little too much. I know that now; gotta keep reminding myself, every time I'm tempted to let go and let rip. Remember that time B punched me, back when I took the girls out partying that night? D'you know how badly I wanted to run after her, pound her to jelly? Slip a knife in her back, cut her throat? Feel her life under my hands? I wanted it so bad, I could feel it, smell the blood. But I didn't. I stopped myself. 'Cause I've been where that leads, I know what I'm capable of. Am still capable of.

Yeah, for a long time I thought it was best if I disappeared. Stayed out of everybody's way, safe in jail. Or dead. I was willing to take the long dirt-nap myself to bring Angel back, after all. But then the man himself gets all pep-talky on me. Tells me I gotta keep fightin', that I can still do good in the world. I'm still a Slayer. Killin' stuff is what I'm born to do: ain't nobody better'n me, and only one person as good. Only now, I just kill the bad guys.


there’s this whole apocalypse thing (which sounds rather far-fetched to be honest, since Genevieve is so obviously being manipulated)

Don't tell me G-man was lying about this whole mission? 'Cause then - ooh! I'll have to turn evil again and go over to the other side! Nah. Come on, E, you know about all this mystic crap, dreams and visions and ancient prophecies and stuff. If Giles says there's an apocalypse brewing, I ain't gonna doubt him. Not like I can read all the ancient Latin manuscripts myself to check, is it? An' yeah, so maybe it turns out posh totty Slayer isn't the one in charge after all. So I go after the real Big Bad instead, once I find out who he is. Good. I kinda like Gigi; glad I might not have to kill her after all.


Whatever knocks she’s taken, her confidence in her attractiveness and sexual prowess are undented.

Well, hell, yeah!

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

Heee! Enjoyed this so much. Spot on on Faith talk.

[elisi]

Y'know, last time somebody did that, everybody called her a hero. Don't remember many people shedding tears over the chick she stabbed in the gut and left for dead.
Did they now? I don't remember that at all. I remember a desperate girl, willing to do whatever she had to, to save the life of the man she loved. That *you* happened to poison, young lady. Buffy didn't kill you because you were evil, or because you were helping unleash Armageddon - but to save a life. And she knew what price she'd have to pay: She'd become you! (As you once told her.) When she saw you in hospital, saw what she'd done to you, she kissed you. She hated herself what what she'd tried to do, and was incredibly grateful that you'd survived.

I stopped myself. 'Cause I've been where that leads, I know what I'm capable of. Am still capable of.
I don't doubt that. I'm just wondering... well I'll continue further down.

Tells me I gotta keep fightin', that I can still do good in the world. I'm still a Slayer. Killin' stuff is what I'm born to do: ain't nobody better'n me, and only one person as good. Only now, I just kill the bad guys.
A Slayer is not a killer. You should really have a talk with Buffy some day, she knows how you feel far better than you think. Even wanted to hand herself over to the cops to get away from everything once - gave up. Which is another point: Sure you're killing the bad guy. But it's also your ticket out. What happened to redemption? What happened to fighting every day? And I'm sorry, but if this is it for you, then you're not the Slayer I thought you were. You know why I admired you, admired Buffy? Because you pulled yourselves up, fought your own fears and carried on, even when there was no reward, nothing except doing the right thing for the sake of it.

If Giles says there's an apocalypse brewing, I ain't gonna doubt him.
I'm not saying he's lying, I'm just saying that he's capable of being as ruthless as Wesley. And willing to kill innocents.

Damn, must run. 'Twas nice talking to you Hope!

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

I've argued this to death so I'll just say:

yeah. Pretty much.

[elisi]

yeah. Pretty much.
I've no idea why I had to write all that. It's like an itch I can't stop scratching, even though I know it hurts... *shakes head* (I like Angel. AtF better be *awesome*!)

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Just Rewards was an underwhelming if mildly amusing episode precisely because the only issue was quite how juvenile Spike and Angel’s rivalry was going to get. There’s a lot more at stake in No Future than whether Faith will decide to stick it into Buffy. On the last page of the preview notice how Faith keeps herself hidden under cover of bubbles while Gigi exposes both herself and her motivations. What the por little rich girl wants is to stop the dreaming, to sever the psychic connection linking all Slayers past and present, to break the chain. The beauty of that metaphor is that it’s so double edged. Gigi’s understanding of it may be selfish and childish but like the General claiming to be humanity’s defender what she’s planning to do can so easily be spun positively, for example as freeing the girls Buffy and Willow have made slaves to duty. Faith finally has something she needs to figure out that will take more thought than choosing who to be loyal to. This is her chance to grow up.

[elisi]

What the por little rich girl wants is to stop the dreaming, to sever the psychic connection linking all Slayers past and present, to break the chain.
Not sure I like the idea that the price to pay for all the Slayers is nightly nightmares. And as for Buffy being at the root of it all, so *her* death would 'free' them - well I'm not sure about that either. (Although if her dying would mean no more slayers called - back to 'one in every generation' - then that would explain the Fray 'verse.) Anyway, I think that it's not that simple. Or rather, I think that what happened when the Scoobies resurrected Buffy - the 'instability' that allowed The First to rise - was that they split the Slayer line in two, so *both* Buffy and Faith would have to die for a new Slayer to be called. If that's the way it's heading (*prays very hard*), then I'd be delighted!

Just Rewards was an underwhelming if mildly amusing episode precisely because the only issue was quite how juvenile Spike and Angel’s rivalry was going to get.
I adore Spike and Angel's bickering. I could watch them snark at each other every day. But 'Just Rewards' is so much more. It is the introduction of Spike to the world of AtS - who is he, what is he etc. And pretty much every line that he and Angel utter tells us something about them - about what they think of each other, of themselves, about how they view the world and what place they have in it. *Also* it sets up one of the main themes of S5. Best described in this essay by thedeadlyhook:

Like Season 6 Buffy, Season 5 Angel acted in ways that often didn't fit with what we had come to expect from the titular hero. In that context, Spike's presence in S5 makes sense as part of Angel's arc for the season. It's actually rather entertainingly meta. [...] So Spike then, in S5, is there for contrast - his appearance in "Just Rewards" (I'm ignoring the TV standard be-sure-to-watch-next-week! lead-in for the closing minutes of "Conviction") is The Hero Returned; promptly after his whirlwhind release from the amulet, we get a flashback of his world-saving immolation in the Hellmouth, a no-bones-about-it heroic moment complete with glowing golden light and chanting orchestral chorus. (Notably, the extent to which this sacrifice had to do with winning Buffy's love is not emphasized; key moments from "Chosen" pertaining to their connection are skipped over.) From there on in, this message is only reinforced - this what a Champion *really* looks like.
(Read the whole thing, it's excellent. I don't necessarily agree with everything 100%, but she makes an *awful* lot of good points!)

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

What the por little rich girl wants is to stop the dreaming, to sever the psychic connection linking all Slayers past and present, to break the chain. The beauty of that metaphor is that it’s so double edged. Gigi’s understanding of it may be selfish and childish but like the General claiming to be humanity’s defender what she’s planning to do can so easily be spun positively, for example as freeing the girls Buffy and Willow have made slaves to duty.
Very interesting point! And also Buffy being referred to as a Queen and slayers as her spawns by Vol makes me think of her as a queen of the bee-hive or of an anthill - kill the queen and the whole community is gone.
Maybe all slayer powers are still stored in Buffy in some way and if she dies their powers are gone too... And a great way to tie into "Chain", too.

The only problem here is that GiGi mentions having dreams since 1st tampon, which would be way before Buffy called the slayers (she's 19 so give it at least 4-5 yrs). If death of Buffy were to free everyone it would mean for those girls not to go back to Potentials but to normal people entirely. As dreams come with being Potentials, not Slayers.

[empresspatti.livejournal.com]

I’m still leaning towards the theory that these are all just wacky AU versions of our beloved characters that Joss came across in a drawer and thought he'd play with. In short: Great story, shame about the characters.

Yup, pretty much sums up S8.

I always come back to this: If Joss hadn't been booted from Wonder Woman, there would be no BtVS Season 8. I really think he is just trying to expand the franchise into new characters because 1)it is the only paycheck he gets these daysand 2)the old characters aren't all his anymore and won't be coming to television ever again.

[elisi]

I always come back to this: If Joss hadn't been booted from Wonder Woman, there would be no BtVS Season 8.
Yeah, that's a good point. I sincerely hope that he'll be able to make Serenity 2, because that'd I'd love! And it'd be amazing and wonderful and SHINY!

*sigh*

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Elisi, I'll try to explain here why I'm enjoying characterizations in this arc enourmously, and not just the story. I won;t try to convince you - jusr present my POV and may be you'll find something useful there, to explain away some sticky points and increase your enjoyment of this comic. :)

First of all - good point on comparing JR to #8 preview. I agree, they seem to play the same card here. I disagree that they are purposefully drawing this out - I'm sure it will be resolved in #8 and the only reason it feels drawn out is because you couldn't resist looking at the preview. :)
Also we can't say that #8 handles it worse than JR - we don't know how they'll handle it yet. So far Faith was showing bonding with GiGi, listening to her - but not plotting against Buffy. Also - two gals in a hot tub, yeah. But after two naked guys in chains I really can't complain here. ;)

What I liked about this scene that it continues to play on Faith insecurities. She's thinking: "why can't I make it work with a good guy, make a friend with a good person? Why did it have to happen so btw Buffy and me?"
Cue in the brilliant line from #7: "I gave everything. She gave a little". BKV again nails the character in one line. That's what started Faith problems with Buffy and that's what pushed her down in B3. That Buffy always meant so much more for Faith than vise versa. That she had Angel who meant more to her, and friends, and mom, etc. Buffy had other things and people in her life. Faith had nobody but Buffy, and even after she got friends - in Angel, and in Robin temporarily, Buffy still was huge in her life, still meant an awful lot. It's not Buffy's fault that she couldn't be for Faith the way Faith wanted - it's just - such is life. Faith came to accept it, to understand why Buffy's so cut off, in B7. She accepted that Buffy has her own life, that Buffy is indeed better than her. But that also came in a package with her own feelings of worthlessness and self-hatred, which weren't cured in B7. They couldn't be in such a short time.
Faith accepted it, it doesn't matter she can't mourn it. That she can't regret it, that life turned out this way and she lost this chance of friendship.
That's what I see in #7, in that flashback.
And here in #8 again comes a bad person who cares about you, wants to be friends with you, thinks a world about you. Cue in Mayor Wilkins. Faith would be thinking - "What's wrong with me? I'm bad, bad, and wrong". Cue in self-hatred etc.

So yes, I too don't believe for a second that Faith will try to doublecross Buffy. And I agree that they put their issues behind them, forgived each other and reached an understanding. But they didn't become friends.
They used have a unique bond - as the only two slayers out there. But Buffy went and made 2000 more, and now have other sister-slayers to hang out with. Faith is even less needed to Buffy than before. Heck, even Dawn complains to Buffy that she now has slayer sisters and doesn't need a real sister anymore. What chance can Faith stand? Since Chosen Buffy was too busy to become a friend. And Faith too unsure of herself.
And Faith mourns it. Fair enough.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Guh, my comment went too long!
Now the next big red button. Faith being treated as an assasin, being given dirty jobs, trying to run away from it. Being written into the corner.
The point about the fake passport was the one which felt OOC to me too. Where would Faith run off and what would she do there? Unless it was just some wishfull thinking on her part, blowing off steam like punching that wall.
As for Faith being pushed into such a bad place - well, it's easier for me to believe in that because I always thought that Robin would be bad for her. He's a morally deficient guy, not mentioning vindictive and manipulative. Faith ended B7 being 2 heads above him as a person. She made peace with Buffy, understood her. Robin didn't. Heck, Robin ended B7 still being under the influence of The First - unlike all other heroes beseiged by The First he never defied or overcame it.
I can see Faith and Robin going to Cleveland, and it's going fine at first. But then after they broke up (maybe we'll be shown why?) I can see her being hurt and withdrawing into her shell again. She was connecting best to the damaged people, people with weight of guilt on their souls, like her - Angel, Spike a bit. I liked her chemistry with Connor btw. As for a bunch of innocent girls - yes, she tried connecting with them in B7 but it ended badly. And mostly she kept apart from those girls.
And as I mentioned, Buffy's busy and cut off. Which is another problem the comics explores. I'm eager to see how they'll meet, what they'll say to each other. I'm sure Buffy's issues will be touched upon along with Faith's.

Now the next hot button - Faith agreeing to kill GiGi. Faith doesn't see it as a murder of an innocent. She's a soldier, this is the war. To kill enemies is her job. And she's been given the hardest and dirtiest tasks - see vamp children. She's been asked to take out someone who's a threat, just like herself has been. Agreeing to kill someone like her old self is like agreeing with her old self being killed. Cue in self-hatred and projection.
I'm sure the present Faith would think that her own old self deserved to be killed. She wasn't, but she's as much grateful for it as she's resentful - see Angel-4. She, at this point of her life, still doesn't think she deserved to be saved - that all the trouble Buffy and Angel and even Giles went through to save her from the Council deserved the lives of all the people she maimed and maybe killed during her L-A stunt in Sanctuary.
Saying "yes" to Giles is in a way saying "yes" to the old Giles to take her old self out in B3. She doesn't think yet that she deserves forgiveness - and that's what she and Giles have in common. In another brilliant stroke BKV nails Giles as well. He thinks the same about himself, he doesn't forgive himself and so doesn't forgive others who hurt innocents.
Giles shows his POV to her and Faith goes along with it because again it resonates with her own self-hatred.

So yes, I saw Faith agreeing to Giles and then being motivated by Giles even more (with his POV that them who's already dirty have to do the dirty work to keep clean people clean) - as totally in character. But I also didn't believe for a second that Faith would go ahead with it when presented with the live person, that she would be able to murder another girl. And that's what we saw in #7.
I'm anticipating Faith journey towards self-worth and forgiveness of self - which wasn't anywhere close to done in B7. And her being able to stand up to other good guys and make moral calls on them - something she never thought she had a right to do before.

And your comparisons with Spike refusing to double-cross Angel or refusing to let Fred die for him to become corporeal - and with Faith agreeing to kill Gigi - are not fair comparisons. The correct comparison would be with Spike torturing that doctor in Shells - to get the info needed to stop Illyria from destroying humanity. Or Spike ready to beat Lindsey into a bloody pulp to get info on Black Thorn. And I have a feeling Spike wouldn't stop from killing Lindsey as well - if Lindsey was a direct threat to their mission. But he'd never do it in such an ugly way Angel did it in NFA - if Spike were to kill Lindsey he'd do it outright.

[elisi]

Elisi, I'll try to explain here why I'm enjoying characterizations in this arc enourmously, and not just the story.
I'll reply to some of your points, but essentially it boils down to this (to quote the great Riley Finn for a moment):

"You say that, but I don't feel it. I just don't feel it."

My connection with the 'verse was always emotional first and foremost - that's what caused the obsession. F.ex. I watch House and Heroes religiously, but I'm not emotionally invested. I'll get to *why* the comics fail for me in that aspect further down.

I disagree that they are purposefully drawing this out - I'm sure it will be resolved in #8 and the only reason it feels drawn out is because you couldn't resist looking at the preview. :)
Oh you're quite probably right. I just don't like the insinuation, that's all.

Faith accepted it, it doesn't matter she can't mourn it. That she can't regret it, that life turned out this way and she lost this chance of friendship.
That's what I see in #7, in that flashback.
And this is where I wonder why she just left it. She and Buffy were getting along well by the end of S7. Bonding. Fighting side by side. Sure, it might never be the same it once was, but if Spike could come back from almost *raping* Buffy, then surely Faith and Buffy could start over too. And this is at the heart of my problem: I don't understand *why* the characters are where they are. Why was Faith *stuck* in Cleveland? Why did Buffy move into that castle? The writers say 'this is where the characters are at', but I cannot follow the line from Sunnydale crater and to where they are now. They're cut off from who and where they were, and without that connection they don't feel real. My 'thing' is character development and exploration, but when big parts of them are just a question mark they feel like strangers.

But Buffy went and made 2000 more, and now have other sister-slayers to hang out with. Faith is even less needed to Buffy than before.
Sure, Buffy has a *great* time with the junior crowd, who are all calling her 'Maam'. Not feeling isolated at all, our Buffster... What she *needs* is obviously someone like Faith, who isn't all overawed. *throws hands up in frustration*

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Interesting musings.

‘Just Rewards’ was *one* episode, the whole thing wrapped up in 40 minutes - we had what... 5, 10 minutes of worrying about Spike’s motives. In comics this stuff is far more drawn out, and therefore a LOT more annoying

You've pinpointed the most frustrating aspect of the comics. Monthly intervals between issue (which roughly equals acts of a TV episode) produce enormous amount of wankage. And no matter what the final result is people feel cheated because they invested into the story much more speculations, thoughts and guesses than it ultimately turns out to be.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

As to Faith's agreement to kill Genevieve - I just accepted is as a plot necessity. Writers didn't write themselves into the corner because they *were* in the corner from the very start.

Just put yourself in their shoes.

It's very understandable that writers wanted to use sorely underused Giles. So they've made him her supervisor. Good move, except it has bound their hands: be it some new character, he\she could be much more menacing and threatening, putting Faith in a do-or-die situation. With Giles they had to tread the waters carefully and make Faith's acceptance of her mission less forced, more a display of free-will.

Of course, writers could use another way to justify her action - to make Genevieve-related apocalypse more dangerous and impending. But, again, the show is called "Buffy the Vampire Slayer". They couldn't allow Faith to avert more spectacular apocalypse than the one that Buffy faces. So they had to tone down the danger, make Genevieve's potential threat less global, more questionable.

So, it's just a plot necessity. Like the ones on BtVS. When Buffy has accidentally killed bad guy (a human) in The Pack, nobody noticed it, because the story was about something else. When Faith has accidentally killed bad guy (a human) in Bad Girls... well, we all know what happened. :)

So, Joss was cheating back then and he's cheating right now. Big deal. :)

[elisi]

As to Faith's agreement to kill Genevieve - I just accepted is as a plot necessity. Writers didn't write themselves into the corner because they *were* in the corner from the very start.
*nods* I can see why they've done it, but it just doesn't work for me. It feels like we're starting in the middle of a story, and the brief summary we've been given of the start makes no sense.

And re. The Pack, then the Zoo keeper was intent on becoming a monster, whereas Allan was probably trying to *find* the Slayers, because he was worried about the Mayor's plans...

Also see my response to mrs_underhill (once I write it. *g* Right now I have to run...)

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

Good post, awesome comments threads.

[elisi]

Thank you. And is it very bad of me to wish I'd just turned off comments? People don't half talk...