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Faith. Or well, not...
I was wondering if I should post this, because I am so very tired of bitching about S8, but then I thought - why not? My fic hates me, and I want to feel I’ve done *something* today (apart from housework). And also I’ve pinpointed a very particular point of irritation. Spoilers for pre-view of issue 8 under cut.
And then we cut to Faith and Genevieve bonding and living the high life. Now this reminded me of something. Something very specific. From ‘Just Rewards’:
SPIKE: Said he could bring me back—body and soul—if I used our close personal relationship to double-cross you.
ANGEL: Tempting. So what'd you say?
SPIKE: You see, right there, that's the problem. You having to ask me that. I don't play for that side anymore, or haven't you heard?
[...]
SPIKE: And here's the kicker: I go in, and you go... pfft! Off to never-never-come-back land. And then... yours very truly will be running the show. Your cars, your fancy digs, everything—everyone—I deserve... will be mine.
‘Just Rewards’ pulled the same trick as ‘No Future for You’, but - although it is a cheap trick - handled it better (IMHO). Because we all knew that Spike and Angel had ISSUES stretching back centuries. That Angel(us) had been an utter bastard to Spike, and that Spike really, really didn’t like him. It wasn’t so much a case of ‘OMG Spike has gone *evil*’ as ‘Spike might just use this opportunity to *hurt* Angel’. But, as Spike points out in the first quote, we should know better. Yes he’s clearly delighted when Angel is hurt, and has great fun beating him up a little later, but... he knows exactly who he is. I remember when I watched it the first time, wondering what was up, how far Spike was going to take it. And the *second* Spike used the word ‘deserve’ I knew that the whole thing was a game.
Now, Faith... well for a start Faith and Buffy *already* put a lot of their issues behind them. Their lovely, lovely talk in ‘End of Days’ where Faith explains how, when in charge herself, suddenly understood Buffy’s inherent loneliness, is one of my favourite scenes of theirs. And not one from whence Faith will ever decide to doublecross Buffy. Ever. Implying as much is an insult, sorry.
And to point out the very obvious Spike/Faith parallels (from 'Dirty Girls'):
SPIKE: Bloody hell! What're you doing? I'm on your side.
FAITH: Yeah? Maybe you haven't heard. I've reformed.
SPIKE: So have I. I reformed way before you did.
(Also, ‘Just Rewards’ was *one* episode, the whole thing wrapped up in 40 minutes - we had what... 5, 10 minutes of worrying about Spike’s motives. In comics this stuff is far more drawn out, and therefore a LOT more annoying.)
Another thing about the scene is how adolescent it is. OK, so Genevieve is obviously still a teen (and fairly immature), but Faith is a woman. Ex-jail bird with a few apocalypses under her belt, but in the comics she’s just reminding me of a 16-year-old. Which annoys me. But a lot of that is down to the artwork...
Anyway, since I’m busy complaining, I though I might also share the companion piece to my Buffy post of a month ago (so this deals with issue 6, but, since Faith was going to go through with Giles’ plan, it can still be used. *sigh*):
First of all, two reviews:
Review by![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
yourlibrarian.
Review bymoscow_watcher.
Nowmoscow_watcher made an interesting point:
Obviously writers "rewound" Faith the way they rewound Spike for AtS season 5. In 2003 Spike turned into a "BtVS season 4 character" as soon as he has crossed over to "Angel". Today Faith is rewritten in a very similar manner, as a "BtVS season 4 character" - bitter, lonely escaped convict who doesn't have a purpose in life.
This I sort of agree with - except I think Spike and Faith were ‘rewound’ in different ways. Spike in AtS S5 behaves very much like S4 Spike - annoying and (c)rude, but this is obviously:
a) A defense mechanism.
b) The result of being near Angel.
But - he is in a completely different *mental* place. S4 Spike was purposeless, lost - even suicidal. AtS S5 Spike is a Champion, plain and simple. That is who/what he is now. Of course different things over the course of the season try to undermine him, and he grows in understanding etc, but he is essentially comfortable with himself - he knows that out of himself and Angel, he comes out top, morally. (I know this is *hugely* simplified, but I’m trying to get to Faith.)
Now Faith on the other hand behaves nothing like her S4 self - she does her duty, doesn’t complain, is friendly with her ex. Mentally however she’s right back to just wanting to run away (trying to purchase a fake passport of course echoing how she stole Buffy’s) - feeling worthless and fed up.
Now, I’m going to say that of course I can see why the chosen story for Faith is pretty much perfect. The themes and parallels are running around in lovely big circles, holding hands, and it is a far, far, far more satisfying thing than anything in S8 so far. Bringing her ‘back to the beginning’ as it were could be very interesting; being the ‘good’ Slayer by being the ‘bad’ one; sent off to kill someone, when she was once the target; being instructed to murder by Giles, just like Genevieve is by *her* ‘watcher’; the way it ties in with her history with Wesley and what he had her do in S4 of AtS; how there might be explorations of her childhood/relationship with her mother (which is obviously where all her problems began) - it could truly be a goldmine of Faith-y goodness. So, when I criticise, it is because I think that one particular aspect is ruining what could otherwise have been a pretty darn excellent story.
So - here is a point I’ve been thinking about re. ‘writing Faith into a corner’. Because I know what it’s like to manipulate characters, and the manipulation needs to be two-fold. Take my Spike/Dawn fic (since it is a good example of getting characters to do something they wouldn’t normally). I needed to:
1) Put them in a situation where the two of them getting together would be plausible. (Solution: Buffy stayed dead, the two of them hung out a lot, sharing their grief and becoming very close.)
2) Put them in a mental space where they would overstep a boundary they both knew to be wrong. (This one was almost easy. Spike, when unsouled, really doesn’t make the best decisions, going with what will make people happy - see helping Dawn raise Joyce - and Dawn has a crush on Spike/doesn’t understand that he is *evil* - see ‘Crush’)
Aaaaaanyway, as concerns Faith the writers certainly tried to nail the first one - Faith’s circumstances are very dire. And yet - we have to do a lot of the work ourselves. And, without more info, I can’t really say that it works for me. (*Why* is she living all by herself in Cleveland? You can all repeat ‘Faith is a loner’ until you’re blue in the face, but Spike was always a loner too. And yet look at him being drawn to the Scoobies - that he *hates* - in S4! Not to mention integrating into the AtS gang. Faith was friendly with most people at the end of S7, moreso that Buffy to be honest. Her isolation in the comics doesn’t feel like an organic development. But then neither does the castle or anything else for that matter. We really shouldn’t have to fanwank quite as badly just to get stuff to make sense.)
And as for #2... OK, we are told that she’s been trying to get hold of a passport, wanting out of her crappy life. But - that does not necessarily translate into being willing to commit murder. Because murder is Faith’s extra special red hot button. She mentions it casually in S4 of AtS, but I know that if I had to write a story where she accepted a mission like the one in S8, I’d have done something much more than what we’ve seen so far. Going back to my Spike/Dawn story, it would have been like setting it post-’Seeing Red’. Not sure if it could have been done. Going back to Spike again, we see that at the start of AtS S5 he’s pretty desperate not to be pulled into hell/to become corporeal again. But he won’t doublecross Angel to get what he wants, nor do it at the expense of Fred’s life...
Yes I know that there’s this whole apocalypse thing (which sounds rather far-fetched to be honest, since Genevieve is so obviously being manipulated), and killing her would be ‘a good thing’. But the whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And I think Faith is hopelessly out of character. As far as I’m concerned her name is Hope Lyonne (I think that was it?) and she just happens to have a story that’s somewhat similar to Faith’s... I’m still leaning towards the theory that these are all just wacky AU versions of our beloved characters that Joss came across in a drawer and thought he'd play with.
But - to look on the postitive side! One thing that struck me about Faith refusing to seduce Genevieve... she thinks that she’d be perfectly able to pull it off. Whatever knocks she’s taken, her confidence in her attractiveness and sexual prowess are undented.
In short: Great story, shame about the characters.
And then we cut to Faith and Genevieve bonding and living the high life. Now this reminded me of something. Something very specific. From ‘Just Rewards’:
SPIKE: Said he could bring me back—body and soul—if I used our close personal relationship to double-cross you.
ANGEL: Tempting. So what'd you say?
SPIKE: You see, right there, that's the problem. You having to ask me that. I don't play for that side anymore, or haven't you heard?
[...]
SPIKE: And here's the kicker: I go in, and you go... pfft! Off to never-never-come-back land. And then... yours very truly will be running the show. Your cars, your fancy digs, everything—everyone—I deserve... will be mine.
‘Just Rewards’ pulled the same trick as ‘No Future for You’, but - although it is a cheap trick - handled it better (IMHO). Because we all knew that Spike and Angel had ISSUES stretching back centuries. That Angel(us) had been an utter bastard to Spike, and that Spike really, really didn’t like him. It wasn’t so much a case of ‘OMG Spike has gone *evil*’ as ‘Spike might just use this opportunity to *hurt* Angel’. But, as Spike points out in the first quote, we should know better. Yes he’s clearly delighted when Angel is hurt, and has great fun beating him up a little later, but... he knows exactly who he is. I remember when I watched it the first time, wondering what was up, how far Spike was going to take it. And the *second* Spike used the word ‘deserve’ I knew that the whole thing was a game.
Now, Faith... well for a start Faith and Buffy *already* put a lot of their issues behind them. Their lovely, lovely talk in ‘End of Days’ where Faith explains how, when in charge herself, suddenly understood Buffy’s inherent loneliness, is one of my favourite scenes of theirs. And not one from whence Faith will ever decide to doublecross Buffy. Ever. Implying as much is an insult, sorry.
And to point out the very obvious Spike/Faith parallels (from 'Dirty Girls'):
SPIKE: Bloody hell! What're you doing? I'm on your side.
FAITH: Yeah? Maybe you haven't heard. I've reformed.
SPIKE: So have I. I reformed way before you did.
(Also, ‘Just Rewards’ was *one* episode, the whole thing wrapped up in 40 minutes - we had what... 5, 10 minutes of worrying about Spike’s motives. In comics this stuff is far more drawn out, and therefore a LOT more annoying.)
Another thing about the scene is how adolescent it is. OK, so Genevieve is obviously still a teen (and fairly immature), but Faith is a woman. Ex-jail bird with a few apocalypses under her belt, but in the comics she’s just reminding me of a 16-year-old. Which annoys me. But a lot of that is down to the artwork...
Anyway, since I’m busy complaining, I though I might also share the companion piece to my Buffy post of a month ago (so this deals with issue 6, but, since Faith was going to go through with Giles’ plan, it can still be used. *sigh*):
First of all, two reviews:
Review by
yourlibrarian.Review by
moscow_watcher.Now
moscow_watcher made an interesting point:Obviously writers "rewound" Faith the way they rewound Spike for AtS season 5. In 2003 Spike turned into a "BtVS season 4 character" as soon as he has crossed over to "Angel". Today Faith is rewritten in a very similar manner, as a "BtVS season 4 character" - bitter, lonely escaped convict who doesn't have a purpose in life.
This I sort of agree with - except I think Spike and Faith were ‘rewound’ in different ways. Spike in AtS S5 behaves very much like S4 Spike - annoying and (c)rude, but this is obviously:
a) A defense mechanism.
b) The result of being near Angel.
But - he is in a completely different *mental* place. S4 Spike was purposeless, lost - even suicidal. AtS S5 Spike is a Champion, plain and simple. That is who/what he is now. Of course different things over the course of the season try to undermine him, and he grows in understanding etc, but he is essentially comfortable with himself - he knows that out of himself and Angel, he comes out top, morally. (I know this is *hugely* simplified, but I’m trying to get to Faith.)
Now Faith on the other hand behaves nothing like her S4 self - she does her duty, doesn’t complain, is friendly with her ex. Mentally however she’s right back to just wanting to run away (trying to purchase a fake passport of course echoing how she stole Buffy’s) - feeling worthless and fed up.
Now, I’m going to say that of course I can see why the chosen story for Faith is pretty much perfect. The themes and parallels are running around in lovely big circles, holding hands, and it is a far, far, far more satisfying thing than anything in S8 so far. Bringing her ‘back to the beginning’ as it were could be very interesting; being the ‘good’ Slayer by being the ‘bad’ one; sent off to kill someone, when she was once the target; being instructed to murder by Giles, just like Genevieve is by *her* ‘watcher’; the way it ties in with her history with Wesley and what he had her do in S4 of AtS; how there might be explorations of her childhood/relationship with her mother (which is obviously where all her problems began) - it could truly be a goldmine of Faith-y goodness. So, when I criticise, it is because I think that one particular aspect is ruining what could otherwise have been a pretty darn excellent story.
So - here is a point I’ve been thinking about re. ‘writing Faith into a corner’. Because I know what it’s like to manipulate characters, and the manipulation needs to be two-fold. Take my Spike/Dawn fic (since it is a good example of getting characters to do something they wouldn’t normally). I needed to:
1) Put them in a situation where the two of them getting together would be plausible. (Solution: Buffy stayed dead, the two of them hung out a lot, sharing their grief and becoming very close.)
2) Put them in a mental space where they would overstep a boundary they both knew to be wrong. (This one was almost easy. Spike, when unsouled, really doesn’t make the best decisions, going with what will make people happy - see helping Dawn raise Joyce - and Dawn has a crush on Spike/doesn’t understand that he is *evil* - see ‘Crush’)
Aaaaaanyway, as concerns Faith the writers certainly tried to nail the first one - Faith’s circumstances are very dire. And yet - we have to do a lot of the work ourselves. And, without more info, I can’t really say that it works for me. (*Why* is she living all by herself in Cleveland? You can all repeat ‘Faith is a loner’ until you’re blue in the face, but Spike was always a loner too. And yet look at him being drawn to the Scoobies - that he *hates* - in S4! Not to mention integrating into the AtS gang. Faith was friendly with most people at the end of S7, moreso that Buffy to be honest. Her isolation in the comics doesn’t feel like an organic development. But then neither does the castle or anything else for that matter. We really shouldn’t have to fanwank quite as badly just to get stuff to make sense.)
And as for #2... OK, we are told that she’s been trying to get hold of a passport, wanting out of her crappy life. But - that does not necessarily translate into being willing to commit murder. Because murder is Faith’s extra special red hot button. She mentions it casually in S4 of AtS, but I know that if I had to write a story where she accepted a mission like the one in S8, I’d have done something much more than what we’ve seen so far. Going back to my Spike/Dawn story, it would have been like setting it post-’Seeing Red’. Not sure if it could have been done. Going back to Spike again, we see that at the start of AtS S5 he’s pretty desperate not to be pulled into hell/to become corporeal again. But he won’t doublecross Angel to get what he wants, nor do it at the expense of Fred’s life...
Yes I know that there’s this whole apocalypse thing (which sounds rather far-fetched to be honest, since Genevieve is so obviously being manipulated), and killing her would be ‘a good thing’. But the whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And I think Faith is hopelessly out of character. As far as I’m concerned her name is Hope Lyonne (I think that was it?) and she just happens to have a story that’s somewhat similar to Faith’s... I’m still leaning towards the theory that these are all just wacky AU versions of our beloved characters that Joss came across in a drawer and thought he'd play with.
But - to look on the postitive side! One thing that struck me about Faith refusing to seduce Genevieve... she thinks that she’d be perfectly able to pull it off. Whatever knocks she’s taken, her confidence in her attractiveness and sexual prowess are undented.
In short: Great story, shame about the characters.
no subject
Fair enough. I guess I just didn't feel very optimistic about Faith-Buffy or Faith-Robin prospects after "Chosen" to start with, didn't feel that Faith was getting a happy-end. Especially when Giles mentioned Hellmouth in Cleveland... I didn't see Faith and Buffy becoming anything close to friends in EoD. They just came to a point of getting over their issues - which as we saw starting from DG were still enourmous.
And also,
Finally - given the way Angel helped Faith, how he knew what she was going through and therefore reached out to her, even when she didn't want him to, the fact that *he* thought she was worth saving... well her characterization here just tramples all over that. She's right back in that alley, wanting to die (= to kill her former self). Angel would be so disappointed.
I'm sure he would be! But we are talking about *Angel* believing she was worth saving, not *herself* believing in it. I didn't see her starting believing in it in Angel-4 and I didn't see it in Buffy-7. What I saw is Faith being prepped by Angel enough to at least try and keep on this road, in the hope that maybe "one day she'll be free". It didn't mean she reached the end of this road by the end of Chosen - she just started then. She's still travelling it here, it's a complex, tortuous journey. We are shown her next steps on it - and I believe we'll see her progress by the end of this arc.
And speaking of which - where the heck is Angel? The absense of contact between Faith and Angel is even more jarring than the same btw Buffy and Spike. I don't know how they are going to explain what happened with Angel and Spike and tie it into B8 - because at some point they'll have to.
Faith wasn't there for Angel before because she was in prison. I won't buy her shying away from him later on account of him being at W&H. I'll wait for explanation though - maybe they'll come up with a convincing story to explain that.
Spike and the Doctor:
But that was *after* Fred died, *after* they found out there was no way of getting her back. They'd lost the battle, the war was just a formality (and if Illyria's soldiers hadn't been dust, they'd had no chance!).
No, the war wasn't a formality: yes, Fred was gone but they still had to deal with Illyria threat which was much more important issue then, frankly. She demonstrated unlimited strength and extremely malicious intent and disappeared in unknown direction. Spike was getting the info on who Illyria is, what kind of threat she may present and where she might strike. He got this info, *including* the info on Illyria's soldiers, her plans to start the war, and the location of her Temple, by using unsavoury means. He did that to prevent the end of the world, and he was ready to kill the one guilty of ushering it.
no subject
Oh no. But I never saw it as a dead-end either. New beginning, with all that implies - new chances, new opportunities, new risks.
She's still travelling it here, it's a complex, tortuous journey. We are shown her next steps on it - and I believe we'll see her progress by the end of this arc.
I just feel that she's on a loop. (Much like Buffy in 'Three Deep'.)
No, the war wasn't a formality: yes, Fred was gone but they still had to deal with Illyria threat which was much more important issue then, frankly.
'Save the cheerleader. Save the world.' Except Spike and Angel had to let the cheerleader die to save the world. And then fight what she turned into... which leads me to:
He did that to prevent the end of the world, and he was ready to kill the one guilty of ushering it.
Oh yes. But my point is, he'd already lost any reward. Faith, however much she might be 'saving the world', is also at the same time buying herself a ticket out of her crappy life. Her motives can never be 'pure' - just like, when Buffy went after Faith to cure Angel, there was also a whole bunch of issues between them. That fight was never just about healing Angel.
And that is my problem.
no subject
Ah, now I see where you are coming from, and I understand the problem you have with it, finally.
It doesn't bother me because I don't place much importance into this "buying a ticket out" motivation. It barely registered for me as having anything to do with her decision. Following officer's orders and fighting a battle to save the world - that was her main motivation as I saw it. And she never thinks or talks about it again, but thinks about her mission and other stuff.
But we'll see how it will play out. Maybe I should take that motivation more seriously as it might still play a part in the story. Even though I believe, as I said above, that Giles would be in no position to offer such kinds of deals by the end of the story.
no subject
Same here, but it's nevertheless *there*. However pure Faith's motives are, they will forever be tainted because of that association. (Buffy's gonna balk, big time, I think. Poor Faith. Maybe Faith will end up saving Genevieve from Buffy?)
Even though I believe, as I said above, that Giles would be in no position to offer such kinds of deals by the end of the story.
I very much hope there will be consequences for him. I very much dislike his behind the scenes manipulation in S8 - he does the dirty work, but refuses responsibility, just like in S7. It's... disappointing.
no subject
And speaking of which - where the heck is Angel?
If she's been in Cleveland since Chosen, then she really *ought* to have come visit during S5... If, however, she *left* the country, she'd not be in a hurry to come back, what with that criminal record and all!