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Faith. Or well, not...
I was wondering if I should post this, because I am so very tired of bitching about S8, but then I thought - why not? My fic hates me, and I want to feel I’ve done *something* today (apart from housework). And also I’ve pinpointed a very particular point of irritation. Spoilers for pre-view of issue 8 under cut.
And then we cut to Faith and Genevieve bonding and living the high life. Now this reminded me of something. Something very specific. From ‘Just Rewards’:
SPIKE: Said he could bring me back—body and soul—if I used our close personal relationship to double-cross you.
ANGEL: Tempting. So what'd you say?
SPIKE: You see, right there, that's the problem. You having to ask me that. I don't play for that side anymore, or haven't you heard?
[...]
SPIKE: And here's the kicker: I go in, and you go... pfft! Off to never-never-come-back land. And then... yours very truly will be running the show. Your cars, your fancy digs, everything—everyone—I deserve... will be mine.
‘Just Rewards’ pulled the same trick as ‘No Future for You’, but - although it is a cheap trick - handled it better (IMHO). Because we all knew that Spike and Angel had ISSUES stretching back centuries. That Angel(us) had been an utter bastard to Spike, and that Spike really, really didn’t like him. It wasn’t so much a case of ‘OMG Spike has gone *evil*’ as ‘Spike might just use this opportunity to *hurt* Angel’. But, as Spike points out in the first quote, we should know better. Yes he’s clearly delighted when Angel is hurt, and has great fun beating him up a little later, but... he knows exactly who he is. I remember when I watched it the first time, wondering what was up, how far Spike was going to take it. And the *second* Spike used the word ‘deserve’ I knew that the whole thing was a game.
Now, Faith... well for a start Faith and Buffy *already* put a lot of their issues behind them. Their lovely, lovely talk in ‘End of Days’ where Faith explains how, when in charge herself, suddenly understood Buffy’s inherent loneliness, is one of my favourite scenes of theirs. And not one from whence Faith will ever decide to doublecross Buffy. Ever. Implying as much is an insult, sorry.
And to point out the very obvious Spike/Faith parallels (from 'Dirty Girls'):
SPIKE: Bloody hell! What're you doing? I'm on your side.
FAITH: Yeah? Maybe you haven't heard. I've reformed.
SPIKE: So have I. I reformed way before you did.
(Also, ‘Just Rewards’ was *one* episode, the whole thing wrapped up in 40 minutes - we had what... 5, 10 minutes of worrying about Spike’s motives. In comics this stuff is far more drawn out, and therefore a LOT more annoying.)
Another thing about the scene is how adolescent it is. OK, so Genevieve is obviously still a teen (and fairly immature), but Faith is a woman. Ex-jail bird with a few apocalypses under her belt, but in the comics she’s just reminding me of a 16-year-old. Which annoys me. But a lot of that is down to the artwork...
Anyway, since I’m busy complaining, I though I might also share the companion piece to my Buffy post of a month ago (so this deals with issue 6, but, since Faith was going to go through with Giles’ plan, it can still be used. *sigh*):
First of all, two reviews:
Review by![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
yourlibrarian.
Review bymoscow_watcher.
Nowmoscow_watcher made an interesting point:
Obviously writers "rewound" Faith the way they rewound Spike for AtS season 5. In 2003 Spike turned into a "BtVS season 4 character" as soon as he has crossed over to "Angel". Today Faith is rewritten in a very similar manner, as a "BtVS season 4 character" - bitter, lonely escaped convict who doesn't have a purpose in life.
This I sort of agree with - except I think Spike and Faith were ‘rewound’ in different ways. Spike in AtS S5 behaves very much like S4 Spike - annoying and (c)rude, but this is obviously:
a) A defense mechanism.
b) The result of being near Angel.
But - he is in a completely different *mental* place. S4 Spike was purposeless, lost - even suicidal. AtS S5 Spike is a Champion, plain and simple. That is who/what he is now. Of course different things over the course of the season try to undermine him, and he grows in understanding etc, but he is essentially comfortable with himself - he knows that out of himself and Angel, he comes out top, morally. (I know this is *hugely* simplified, but I’m trying to get to Faith.)
Now Faith on the other hand behaves nothing like her S4 self - she does her duty, doesn’t complain, is friendly with her ex. Mentally however she’s right back to just wanting to run away (trying to purchase a fake passport of course echoing how she stole Buffy’s) - feeling worthless and fed up.
Now, I’m going to say that of course I can see why the chosen story for Faith is pretty much perfect. The themes and parallels are running around in lovely big circles, holding hands, and it is a far, far, far more satisfying thing than anything in S8 so far. Bringing her ‘back to the beginning’ as it were could be very interesting; being the ‘good’ Slayer by being the ‘bad’ one; sent off to kill someone, when she was once the target; being instructed to murder by Giles, just like Genevieve is by *her* ‘watcher’; the way it ties in with her history with Wesley and what he had her do in S4 of AtS; how there might be explorations of her childhood/relationship with her mother (which is obviously where all her problems began) - it could truly be a goldmine of Faith-y goodness. So, when I criticise, it is because I think that one particular aspect is ruining what could otherwise have been a pretty darn excellent story.
So - here is a point I’ve been thinking about re. ‘writing Faith into a corner’. Because I know what it’s like to manipulate characters, and the manipulation needs to be two-fold. Take my Spike/Dawn fic (since it is a good example of getting characters to do something they wouldn’t normally). I needed to:
1) Put them in a situation where the two of them getting together would be plausible. (Solution: Buffy stayed dead, the two of them hung out a lot, sharing their grief and becoming very close.)
2) Put them in a mental space where they would overstep a boundary they both knew to be wrong. (This one was almost easy. Spike, when unsouled, really doesn’t make the best decisions, going with what will make people happy - see helping Dawn raise Joyce - and Dawn has a crush on Spike/doesn’t understand that he is *evil* - see ‘Crush’)
Aaaaaanyway, as concerns Faith the writers certainly tried to nail the first one - Faith’s circumstances are very dire. And yet - we have to do a lot of the work ourselves. And, without more info, I can’t really say that it works for me. (*Why* is she living all by herself in Cleveland? You can all repeat ‘Faith is a loner’ until you’re blue in the face, but Spike was always a loner too. And yet look at him being drawn to the Scoobies - that he *hates* - in S4! Not to mention integrating into the AtS gang. Faith was friendly with most people at the end of S7, moreso that Buffy to be honest. Her isolation in the comics doesn’t feel like an organic development. But then neither does the castle or anything else for that matter. We really shouldn’t have to fanwank quite as badly just to get stuff to make sense.)
And as for #2... OK, we are told that she’s been trying to get hold of a passport, wanting out of her crappy life. But - that does not necessarily translate into being willing to commit murder. Because murder is Faith’s extra special red hot button. She mentions it casually in S4 of AtS, but I know that if I had to write a story where she accepted a mission like the one in S8, I’d have done something much more than what we’ve seen so far. Going back to my Spike/Dawn story, it would have been like setting it post-’Seeing Red’. Not sure if it could have been done. Going back to Spike again, we see that at the start of AtS S5 he’s pretty desperate not to be pulled into hell/to become corporeal again. But he won’t doublecross Angel to get what he wants, nor do it at the expense of Fred’s life...
Yes I know that there’s this whole apocalypse thing (which sounds rather far-fetched to be honest, since Genevieve is so obviously being manipulated), and killing her would be ‘a good thing’. But the whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And I think Faith is hopelessly out of character. As far as I’m concerned her name is Hope Lyonne (I think that was it?) and she just happens to have a story that’s somewhat similar to Faith’s... I’m still leaning towards the theory that these are all just wacky AU versions of our beloved characters that Joss came across in a drawer and thought he'd play with.
But - to look on the postitive side! One thing that struck me about Faith refusing to seduce Genevieve... she thinks that she’d be perfectly able to pull it off. Whatever knocks she’s taken, her confidence in her attractiveness and sexual prowess are undented.
In short: Great story, shame about the characters.
And then we cut to Faith and Genevieve bonding and living the high life. Now this reminded me of something. Something very specific. From ‘Just Rewards’:
SPIKE: Said he could bring me back—body and soul—if I used our close personal relationship to double-cross you.
ANGEL: Tempting. So what'd you say?
SPIKE: You see, right there, that's the problem. You having to ask me that. I don't play for that side anymore, or haven't you heard?
[...]
SPIKE: And here's the kicker: I go in, and you go... pfft! Off to never-never-come-back land. And then... yours very truly will be running the show. Your cars, your fancy digs, everything—everyone—I deserve... will be mine.
‘Just Rewards’ pulled the same trick as ‘No Future for You’, but - although it is a cheap trick - handled it better (IMHO). Because we all knew that Spike and Angel had ISSUES stretching back centuries. That Angel(us) had been an utter bastard to Spike, and that Spike really, really didn’t like him. It wasn’t so much a case of ‘OMG Spike has gone *evil*’ as ‘Spike might just use this opportunity to *hurt* Angel’. But, as Spike points out in the first quote, we should know better. Yes he’s clearly delighted when Angel is hurt, and has great fun beating him up a little later, but... he knows exactly who he is. I remember when I watched it the first time, wondering what was up, how far Spike was going to take it. And the *second* Spike used the word ‘deserve’ I knew that the whole thing was a game.
Now, Faith... well for a start Faith and Buffy *already* put a lot of their issues behind them. Their lovely, lovely talk in ‘End of Days’ where Faith explains how, when in charge herself, suddenly understood Buffy’s inherent loneliness, is one of my favourite scenes of theirs. And not one from whence Faith will ever decide to doublecross Buffy. Ever. Implying as much is an insult, sorry.
And to point out the very obvious Spike/Faith parallels (from 'Dirty Girls'):
SPIKE: Bloody hell! What're you doing? I'm on your side.
FAITH: Yeah? Maybe you haven't heard. I've reformed.
SPIKE: So have I. I reformed way before you did.
(Also, ‘Just Rewards’ was *one* episode, the whole thing wrapped up in 40 minutes - we had what... 5, 10 minutes of worrying about Spike’s motives. In comics this stuff is far more drawn out, and therefore a LOT more annoying.)
Another thing about the scene is how adolescent it is. OK, so Genevieve is obviously still a teen (and fairly immature), but Faith is a woman. Ex-jail bird with a few apocalypses under her belt, but in the comics she’s just reminding me of a 16-year-old. Which annoys me. But a lot of that is down to the artwork...
Anyway, since I’m busy complaining, I though I might also share the companion piece to my Buffy post of a month ago (so this deals with issue 6, but, since Faith was going to go through with Giles’ plan, it can still be used. *sigh*):
First of all, two reviews:
Review by
yourlibrarian.Review by
moscow_watcher.Now
moscow_watcher made an interesting point:Obviously writers "rewound" Faith the way they rewound Spike for AtS season 5. In 2003 Spike turned into a "BtVS season 4 character" as soon as he has crossed over to "Angel". Today Faith is rewritten in a very similar manner, as a "BtVS season 4 character" - bitter, lonely escaped convict who doesn't have a purpose in life.
This I sort of agree with - except I think Spike and Faith were ‘rewound’ in different ways. Spike in AtS S5 behaves very much like S4 Spike - annoying and (c)rude, but this is obviously:
a) A defense mechanism.
b) The result of being near Angel.
But - he is in a completely different *mental* place. S4 Spike was purposeless, lost - even suicidal. AtS S5 Spike is a Champion, plain and simple. That is who/what he is now. Of course different things over the course of the season try to undermine him, and he grows in understanding etc, but he is essentially comfortable with himself - he knows that out of himself and Angel, he comes out top, morally. (I know this is *hugely* simplified, but I’m trying to get to Faith.)
Now Faith on the other hand behaves nothing like her S4 self - she does her duty, doesn’t complain, is friendly with her ex. Mentally however she’s right back to just wanting to run away (trying to purchase a fake passport of course echoing how she stole Buffy’s) - feeling worthless and fed up.
Now, I’m going to say that of course I can see why the chosen story for Faith is pretty much perfect. The themes and parallels are running around in lovely big circles, holding hands, and it is a far, far, far more satisfying thing than anything in S8 so far. Bringing her ‘back to the beginning’ as it were could be very interesting; being the ‘good’ Slayer by being the ‘bad’ one; sent off to kill someone, when she was once the target; being instructed to murder by Giles, just like Genevieve is by *her* ‘watcher’; the way it ties in with her history with Wesley and what he had her do in S4 of AtS; how there might be explorations of her childhood/relationship with her mother (which is obviously where all her problems began) - it could truly be a goldmine of Faith-y goodness. So, when I criticise, it is because I think that one particular aspect is ruining what could otherwise have been a pretty darn excellent story.
So - here is a point I’ve been thinking about re. ‘writing Faith into a corner’. Because I know what it’s like to manipulate characters, and the manipulation needs to be two-fold. Take my Spike/Dawn fic (since it is a good example of getting characters to do something they wouldn’t normally). I needed to:
1) Put them in a situation where the two of them getting together would be plausible. (Solution: Buffy stayed dead, the two of them hung out a lot, sharing their grief and becoming very close.)
2) Put them in a mental space where they would overstep a boundary they both knew to be wrong. (This one was almost easy. Spike, when unsouled, really doesn’t make the best decisions, going with what will make people happy - see helping Dawn raise Joyce - and Dawn has a crush on Spike/doesn’t understand that he is *evil* - see ‘Crush’)
Aaaaaanyway, as concerns Faith the writers certainly tried to nail the first one - Faith’s circumstances are very dire. And yet - we have to do a lot of the work ourselves. And, without more info, I can’t really say that it works for me. (*Why* is she living all by herself in Cleveland? You can all repeat ‘Faith is a loner’ until you’re blue in the face, but Spike was always a loner too. And yet look at him being drawn to the Scoobies - that he *hates* - in S4! Not to mention integrating into the AtS gang. Faith was friendly with most people at the end of S7, moreso that Buffy to be honest. Her isolation in the comics doesn’t feel like an organic development. But then neither does the castle or anything else for that matter. We really shouldn’t have to fanwank quite as badly just to get stuff to make sense.)
And as for #2... OK, we are told that she’s been trying to get hold of a passport, wanting out of her crappy life. But - that does not necessarily translate into being willing to commit murder. Because murder is Faith’s extra special red hot button. She mentions it casually in S4 of AtS, but I know that if I had to write a story where she accepted a mission like the one in S8, I’d have done something much more than what we’ve seen so far. Going back to my Spike/Dawn story, it would have been like setting it post-’Seeing Red’. Not sure if it could have been done. Going back to Spike again, we see that at the start of AtS S5 he’s pretty desperate not to be pulled into hell/to become corporeal again. But he won’t doublecross Angel to get what he wants, nor do it at the expense of Fred’s life...
Yes I know that there’s this whole apocalypse thing (which sounds rather far-fetched to be honest, since Genevieve is so obviously being manipulated), and killing her would be ‘a good thing’. But the whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And I think Faith is hopelessly out of character. As far as I’m concerned her name is Hope Lyonne (I think that was it?) and she just happens to have a story that’s somewhat similar to Faith’s... I’m still leaning towards the theory that these are all just wacky AU versions of our beloved characters that Joss came across in a drawer and thought he'd play with.
But - to look on the postitive side! One thing that struck me about Faith refusing to seduce Genevieve... she thinks that she’d be perfectly able to pull it off. Whatever knocks she’s taken, her confidence in her attractiveness and sexual prowess are undented.
In short: Great story, shame about the characters.
no subject
But - that does not necessarily translate into being willing to commit murder. Because murder is Faith’s extra special red hot button.
Who said anything about murder? I'm on a covert ops mission to take out a rogue Slayer. Y'know, last time somebody did that, everybody called her a hero. Don't remember many people shedding tears over the chick she stabbed in the gut and left for dead.
You ever killed anyone, E? I have. Includin' vampires - an' seems it's the fashion to count them as people these days - I've killed hundreds. An' yeah, I got out of control for a while. Started enjoyin' it a little too much. I know that now; gotta keep reminding myself, every time I'm tempted to let go and let rip. Remember that time B punched me, back when I took the girls out partying that night? D'you know how badly I wanted to run after her, pound her to jelly? Slip a knife in her back, cut her throat? Feel her life under my hands? I wanted it so bad, I could feel it, smell the blood. But I didn't. I stopped myself. 'Cause I've been where that leads, I know what I'm capable of. Am still capable of.
Yeah, for a long time I thought it was best if I disappeared. Stayed out of everybody's way, safe in jail. Or dead. I was willing to take the long dirt-nap myself to bring Angel back, after all. But then the man himself gets all pep-talky on me. Tells me I gotta keep fightin', that I can still do good in the world. I'm still a Slayer. Killin' stuff is what I'm born to do: ain't nobody better'n me, and only one person as good. Only now, I just kill the bad guys.
there’s this whole apocalypse thing (which sounds rather far-fetched to be honest, since Genevieve is so obviously being manipulated)
Don't tell me G-man was lying about this whole mission? 'Cause then - ooh! I'll have to turn evil again and go over to the other side! Nah. Come on, E, you know about all this mystic crap, dreams and visions and ancient prophecies and stuff. If Giles says there's an apocalypse brewing, I ain't gonna doubt him. Not like I can read all the ancient Latin manuscripts myself to check, is it? An' yeah, so maybe it turns out posh totty Slayer isn't the one in charge after all. So I go after the real Big Bad instead, once I find out who he is. Good. I kinda like Gigi; glad I might not have to kill her after all.
Whatever knocks she’s taken, her confidence in her attractiveness and sexual prowess are undented.
Well, hell, yeah!
no subject
no subject
Although I'd like to assure you here and now that any insight I may have into Faith's character is not because I'm a partly-recovered psychotic murderer myself. Honest.
no subject
Did they now? I don't remember that at all. I remember a desperate girl, willing to do whatever she had to, to save the life of the man she loved. That *you* happened to poison, young lady. Buffy didn't kill you because you were evil, or because you were helping unleash Armageddon - but to save a life. And she knew what price she'd have to pay: She'd become you! (As you once told her.) When she saw you in hospital, saw what she'd done to you, she kissed you. She hated herself what what she'd tried to do, and was incredibly grateful that you'd survived.
I stopped myself. 'Cause I've been where that leads, I know what I'm capable of. Am still capable of.
I don't doubt that. I'm just wondering... well I'll continue further down.
Tells me I gotta keep fightin', that I can still do good in the world. I'm still a Slayer. Killin' stuff is what I'm born to do: ain't nobody better'n me, and only one person as good. Only now, I just kill the bad guys.
A Slayer is not a killer. You should really have a talk with Buffy some day, she knows how you feel far better than you think. Even wanted to hand herself over to the cops to get away from everything once - gave up. Which is another point: Sure you're killing the bad guy. But it's also your ticket out. What happened to redemption? What happened to fighting every day? And I'm sorry, but if this is it for you, then you're not the Slayer I thought you were. You know why I admired you, admired Buffy? Because you pulled yourselves up, fought your own fears and carried on, even when there was no reward, nothing except doing the right thing for the sake of it.
If Giles says there's an apocalypse brewing, I ain't gonna doubt him.
I'm not saying he's lying, I'm just saying that he's capable of being as ruthless as Wesley. And willing to kill innocents.
Damn, must run. 'Twas nice talking to you Hope!
no subject
Buffy didn't kill you because you were evil, or because you were helping unleash Armageddon - but to save a life.
And because she got off on it, just like I knew she would. Buffy's the same as me, inside; it's just buried more deeply. You weren't there, E, didn't look into her eyes. Slayers are built to kill, nothing but. 'The man she loved'? Three months later she was all about the new guy.
When she saw you in hospital, saw what she'd done to you, she kissed you. She hated herself what what she'd tried to do, and was incredibly grateful that you'd survived.
*Astonished beaming smile* Really?
*Pulls the shutters back down, withdraws back in on herself.*
Well, I wouldn't know that. I was in a coma, remember?
A Slayer is not a killer.
That's B's line. Talk to Wesley, he'd tell you different. A Slayer fights evil, any way she can.
Sure you're killing the bad guy. But it's also your ticket out. What happened to redemption? What happened to fighting every day?
*Looks uncomfortable*
You mean that crap from Giles about a ticket out, retiring to a life of luxury? Well, hell, I'd be an idiot to turn that down, wouldn't I? I've been poor all my life, don't mean I gotta enjoy it. But it's not about the money. It's about doin' what's right.
I'm just saying that he's capable of being as ruthless as Wesley. And willing to kill innocents.
Nobody's innocent. An' sometimes you gotta get your hands dirty to do the right thing.
*Looks at her hands. A brief look of pain flashes over her face, and she shoves them behind her back.*
Whatever.
Damn, must run. 'Twas nice talking to you Hope!
Later, E. An' it's Faith. Only Gigi calls me Hope.
no subject
Especially this:
*Astonished beaming smile* Really?
*Pulls the shutters back down, withdraws back in on herself.*
Well, I wouldn't know that. I was in a coma, remember?
I'm sure too Faith would be very happy to learn about that! And react exactly like this.
And this is right on the money:
Everyone's a shrink now. Yeah, I got all that stuff thrown at me in jail too. And by Angel. Tells me not to go out into the darkness, and he's sitting there in a basement hisself. Way I hears it, man's had that many redemptions an' falls from grace, he oughta have his own TV series about 'em. So I think I'm allowed the right to backslide a little too.
Exactly. There's no character story without character issues. If you don't care much for Faith you could be content with how her journey ended in Chosen. But if you want more Faith you'll need more issues for her to deal with.
no subject
I'm sure too Faith would be very happy to learn about that! And react exactly like this
It's why she's such a fascinating character. Deep down inside there's a friendly, kind-hearted and loving young woman, but she's buried beneath so many layers of fear, avoidance, hatred, anger and false bravado; you only catch the most fleeting glimpses before she's gone again, and every time you think you've got through her defences, all you find is another defence.
no subject
I don't think she did. She gets off on *slaying* sure (just as Spike about how she likes it rough), but fighting you wasn't about that. There was vengeance in the mix though, oh yes. Anger and hatred and disappointment and all sorts of other nasty things. No beacon of virtue, our Buffy, just human.
Well, I wouldn't know that. I was in a coma, remember?
You always hurt the one you love... I'm sure you of all people know that.
That's B's line. Talk to Wesley, he'd tell you different. A Slayer fights evil, any way she can.
Oh that's Giles' line too. And Buffy cut up Caleb nice as you please. But... think about Willow. Warren was as low and disgusting an excuse for a human being as ever there was, and yet Willow felt terrible about what she did. Not because she killed him, but because she killed him. (Having to explain all this to you makes me wonder if someone did some mojo on your head. I'd have thought of all the people in the 'verse you'd understand. Apparently Joss doesn't think so.)
But it's not about the money. It's about doin' what's right.
Of course it is. But it still taints the deed.
Nobody's innocent. An' sometimes you gotta get your hands dirty to do the right thing.
Problem is, you gotta live with yourself afterwards. Sorry that Joss is being such a bastard.