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Update of things.
All hail the Moff and Twelve. DW magazine did a poll of best Doctor Who episodes, and well... go look!
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I posted Chapter 3 of All Breakages Must Be Paid For. <3
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The Netflix series of Avatar: The Last Airbender has an Official Teaser, and it looks incredible!
(If writing/acting etc lives up to the visuals, it will be stunning.)
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I updated my Good Omens S2: The Big Tumblr Meta Post with yet more links! ^_^
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I posted Chapter 3 of All Breakages Must Be Paid For. <3
~
The Netflix series of Avatar: The Last Airbender has an Official Teaser, and it looks incredible!
(If writing/acting etc lives up to the visuals, it will be stunning.)
~
I updated my Good Omens S2: The Big Tumblr Meta Post with yet more links! ^_^
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(Something I noticed about my top ten list - in a comment below - the episodes I see as the best are so very different from each other?)
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It's a solid point. You are perfectly right. And yet I also do feel that Day of the Doctor is more Who-ish than Heaven Sent . . . It's easier for me to say why Blink doesn't feel like Who to me. Of course it belongs in the show because the show is almost infinitely elastic. But mostly I think it's almost perfect sci-fi and not terribly good Doctor Who. It hasn't got the Doctor in it, for one thing. But I think it's also just something about how very far it is from the average. Showing somebody Blink to get them into Doctor Who is just misleading. Not that I need every episode to hew to that average--it would be very boring if it did--but you do need that average in order to have any sort of cohesion at all.
There's also something about whether a particular story could only happen in Doctor Who, or if it might just as easily be an episode of any sci-fi/genre show. Which is why I think the historical with aliens is the most quintessentially Who-ish episode format. But the most unique thing about Doctor Who for me is that they've managed to write the same character for 60 years with something resembling a coherent character arc. Yeah, it's all a bit of a mess because there's no overriding plan, but it's in no way like writing James Bond where he just resets constantly and the past never matters. In the immortal words of some anonymous person I've forgotten: watch Doctor Who long enough and your favorite character becomes the Doctor and your favorite Doctor becomes the Doctor. Literally no other show does that.
(Something I noticed about my top ten list - in a comment below - the episodes I see as the best are so very different from each other?)
There's something to be said for that. I looked at my list and immediately felt very transparent and one-note. Look, if you gave me 25 spots, my tastes would be absolutely all over the place--I love that Doctor Who does everything. But if you're going to force me to choose only ten stories that are the most stand out of this show to me, it turns out I'm a woman of limited interests, which primarily involve the Doctor being terribly principled and self-sacrificing.
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That's an excellent point!
But: didn't Moffat once say that Doctor Who is essentially a fairy tale? That's something that makes it different from other sci-fi/genre shows, and it's one reason that the episodes that feel most quintessentially Who-ish to me are the ones that are steeped in metaphor and symbolism and have a fairy tale or mythical feel? And that mix of science fiction and fairy tale is what makes a story something that could only happen on Doctor Who?
I'd be the first to admit that some of my favorite episodes don't fit that criterion: "The Waters of Mars" is superb television, but I'm not sure it's good Doctor Who?
"Heaven Sent", on the other hand, seems to me to be a story that could only happen on Doctor Who? I agree with
So, to me: "Heaven Sent" isn't just the best Doctor Who episode, it's also the quintessential Doctor Who episode.
Does that make sense?
ETA: Now that I think more about, it though, I guess you could actually make the same case about "The Waters of Mars", because it too is arguably a story that could only be told on Doctor Who, and it too is steeped in symbolism? (And...you could argue that "The Waters of Mars" and "Heaven Sent" mirror each other in fascinating ways...) Not sure, just pondering.
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My definition would be 'Intellect and romance triumph over brute force and cynicism'. <3
(Which is one of the reasons I don't like Midnight - it's not good Doctor Who, even if it's otherwise good sci-fi.)
So, to me: "Heaven Sent" isn't just the best Doctor Who episode, it's also the quintessential Doctor Who episode. Does that make sense?
That makes perfect sense, but I'd still put Day of the Doctor above it.
Day of the Doctor is... sillier, which is a vital part of the show. And Day of the Doctor was such a phenomenon. I'm not sure this translates across countries, but Doctor Who is British, and as I put it once, it's a fairy tale that has been told to a whole country for generations. And the 50th was huge. We went to see it in the cinema and my two younger daughters dressed up (one as Eleven, one as little Amelia, complete with coat and wellies and little suitcase). And then the story! The story was about the Doctor saving Gallifrey, changing him from the man who murdered his own people to the man who saved them by being terribly terribly clever and brilliant (due to a tiny little shake of the head from Clara). Intellect and romance triumph over brute force and cynicism in the most impossible, incredibly mad brilliant way. The sheer joy of it. The structure of it, the... everything of it. (OK, I'll shut up, I wrote a whole looooong post. *g*)
Heaven Sent is incredible, and aesthetically far more polished, but if I had to summarise them, then I'd say that Day of the Doctor is All The Things, and Heaven Sent is poetry.
Of course they are linked in that Heaven Sent is the fulfillment of Day of the Doctor: it's the finding of Gallifrey and the paying of the price for that.
(I hope this makes sense, I got broken off halfway through...)
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Elisi. How have I forgotten about intellect and romance triumph over brute force and cynicism? Straight forgotten.
I'm suing Chibbs for damages.
You make a very good point about the silliness. And I think there's a related argument to be made about eclecticism of tone and genre? Eclecticism between the episodes is of course key to Doctor Who. But I think eclecticism within the episodes is nearly as important. Thus very tonally tight episodes like Heaven Sent do feel less Who-ish to me.
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The trauma of mediocrity. And the lack of intellect and romance in Chibnall Who. *g*
I'm suing Chibbs for damages.
Do eeeet!
You make a very good point about the silliness.
It's difficult to explain, but I know I'm right.
And I think there's a related argument to be made about eclecticism of tone and genre? Eclecticism between the episodes is of course key to Doctor Who. But I think eclecticism within the episodes is nearly as important. Thus very tonally tight episodes like Heaven Sent do feel less Who-ish to me.
'Tonally tight' - yes, that's the description I was searching for. It's not a criticism, because that's usually what makes those episodes stand out, but it makes them not quite fit in the 'regular' Doctor Who mould.
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You make a very good argument; I absolutely agree. And this is surely one of the things that draws me to this show above anything else.
Now that I think more about, it though, I guess you could actually make the same case about "The Waters of Mars", because it too is arguably a story that could only be told on Doctor Who, and it too is steeped in symbolism? (And...you could argue that "The Waters of Mars" and "Heaven Sent" mirror each other in fascinating ways...) Not sure, just pondering.
I think both Waters of Mars and Heaven Sent (and Midnight, come to that) are . . . punctuation episodes? The point of them is that they break the way the show works. And as such they are very memorable and affecting. But I think that's where my sense that they are less Who-ish comes from? Their being less Who-ish is, in fact, the point of them. (Though of these three, Heaven Sent is the most Who-ish for sure.) An interesting compare might be Listen? Which is similarly tight, distinctive, claustrophobic, poetic . . . but I would argue that it's not a break the way the other three are? It's ultimately an affirmation of the show as it usually is.
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That's an excellent point!
Though...I also like
To my mind it does seem safe enough to say that something big and messy and little frenetic and actively goofy in places seems more quintessentially Who-ish, or certainly more representatively Who-ish than a tight, focused little gem of an episode with major "SF short story" vibes which consists almost entirely of the Doctor wandering around alone through a single building. But, of course, on a larger scale, it's very, wonderfully Who-ish to have room for both of those kinds of things. Which is why I wouldn't go as far as [personal profile] elisi and describe it as "not terribly good Doctor Who," either. It's great Doctor Who. It's just less Who-ish Doctor Who, but having less Who-ish Doctor Who also helps to make Doctor Who more Who-ish. ;)
I guess...it seems to me that the essence of Doctor Who is that it is so very, very many different things? And that people with very different tastes can find something to love in it?
ETA I remembered we had a similar discussion a few years ago, found this post...and remembered "The Doctor's Wife"...and now I can't believe I forgot about it. It definitely belongs in my top ten. And I suppose some would argue it's not very Whovian? Yet...it's also quintessentially Whovian.
Actually, I think maybe that's the essence of Doctor Who, to me? A paradox.
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Very much this. And it's probably one of the reasons it's lasted so long - it contains multitudes and is constantly changing, even as it stays true to the core of it.
and remembered "The Doctor's Wife"...and now I can't believe I forgot about it. It definitely belongs in my top ten. And I suppose some would argue it's not very Whovian? Yet...it's also quintessentially Whovian.
It's an episode about the Doctor's greatest love, of course it's quintessentially Whovian. It's an outlier (because the TARDIS isn't usually front and centre), but also it's a very important story because of this.
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Oh, interesting! I don't think that would ever occur to me as a criterion?
But...while I like seeing the Doctor as morally ambiguous, I have a huge aversion to seeing the Doctor as too powerful? That's why I simply cannot stand "Human Nature" / "The Family of Blood": I cannot stand seeing the Doctor as having the power to cast other beings into Hell. If the Doctor is that powerful, then...I've no interest in Doctor Who. The Doctor isn't a god, they're a madperson with a box. Sometimes they have delusions of godhood, but those delusions are just that: delusions. ("The Laws of Time are mine and they will obey me!" "Sorry, Doctor, but it looks like history's got other ideas.") But HN/TFoB implies that the Doctor really is that powerful, and...that's the one thing that I simply cannot stand. It's not a moral objection (though I do STRONGLY object to what the Doctor does to the Family!) - it's a philosophical objection (or maybe an aesthetic objection?) (Or maybe just a fear reaction: the idea of an entity that powerful scares the bejeezus out of me...I have issues...) (
You and
YMMV!
<3
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Now see I love those episodes, partly *because* of who the Doctor becomes here. He isn't a god, but he is beginning to act like one and it's a pivotal point of Ten's arc (culminating in Waters of Mars... 🎶 "I can ride my bike with no handlebars...🎶). I mean, yes, it's horrific, but if you're going to get the Doctor to go off the deep end, then this is what it looks like (see the Master, and - of course - the Valeyard!).
I'm sure you are familiar with
The relevant part:
"Now, to the meat, the gristle in the teeth, the I TOLD YOU SO moment of the show - the Doctor's treatment of The Family. I've said over and over again that this Doctor is much darker, almost unhinged and probably slighty sociopathic than Nine ever could hope to be. We are starting to see the overt manifestation of "no second chances" and my god, is it delicous. I get the impression he's trembling on the knife-point of completely losing control and the cracks in his facade are widening. It's starting to pile up - Gallifrey, the loss of his people, his companions, his friends and if he doesn' t let it out and deal then the meltdown will be of nuclear proportions. There was a line in the BBC7 audio "Phobos" where he kills an empathatic species with an overload of his memories and thoughts. What finally kills isn't what he's done, or what he's afraid of, it's what he's capable of doing. I think a full-out Time Lord meltdown would bring down galaxies and that's always lurking just below the surface with this Doctor. His choice of *justice* for The Family went beyond punishment. It was vindicative and cruel. He knows the curse of immortality and the pain of being separated from your people yet he cruelly condemns The Family to that very fate. It crossed a line and I don't think he particularly cares. He just seems so tired of losing what little he clings to over and over again. I don't know how he can come back from this and fall back into the happy-go-lucky scamp mode that a good chunk of fandom seems to prefer."
However, I can understand not liking it! :)
elisi's confidence that Eleven freed the Family doesn't help at all in my case: the issue isn't the-Family-being-in-Hell, the issue is the Doctor-having-the-power-to-do-that - it's the latter idea I can't stand.
Well on the first front, then I can actually offer proof. Not for Eleven, but Thirteen. :) Paul Cornell wrote a delightful Thirteenth Doctor story, which included this passage:
Yaz felt that. ‘[...] I sometimes think if we could see all you were, at once, it’d be too much. We couldn’t deal.’
The Doctor looked bashful and pleased all at the same time, which was another of Yaz’s favourite looks of hers. ‘Well, I certainly can’t. I’m a bit too much for me. I’m more than I knew about. Still processing all that. I sometimes think that’s why I change personality instead of just making my body younger. I need to switch myself off and on again so I can handle all the memories, so a lot of it feels like it happened to someone else. I get a different perspective on what I’ve done. I’ve been thinking a lot about that lately. There’s this girl in a mirror. Where I put her. That doesn’t suit who I am now. When we get out of here… Oh, this is getting deep and meaningful, isn’t it?’ Yaz was about to say that was fine, but the Doctor swung to include the others, suddenly pulling another surprise from her pockets. ‘Balloon animals!’
(Sidebar: Why couldn't we have had writing like this on the actual show?)
Regarding having that kind of power, then that is sort of inherent in the character. However I think the issue is squarely a Tenth Doctor problem, albeit re-visited and resolved with Twelve. The archetype that the Doctor conforms to (as I've said elsewhere) is the Trickster. It was only RTD who made Ten go in a different direction, and then killed him because of it.
Conversely, then refusing the power altogether gives us Thirteen more or less, which was just dull.
Goodness, this got rambly! I hope some of it made sense.
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I didn't set out to do it that way, but once I had my list I sat back and went 'ok, so, there's definitely a theme here . . .'
But...while I like seeing the Doctor as morally ambiguous, I have a huge aversion to seeing the Doctor as too powerful? That's why I simply cannot stand "Human Nature" / "The Family of Blood": I cannot stand seeing the Doctor as having the power to cast other beings into Hell. If the Doctor is that powerful, then...I've no interest in Doctor Who. The Doctor isn't a god, they're a madperson with a box. Sometimes they have delusions of godhood, but those delusions are just that: delusions.
Hmmmm. I honestly have almost the opposite take on those episodes. Well . . . I think it's a story that provides very few answers. I see it as this meditation on all of these underlying themes that will not get properly addressed until the Moffat years--just kind of marinating in the seeming helplessness of them. There's the issues of the Doctor's power, yes, and what are right and temperate ways to use it and what that all means about his basic nature. And you have the whole Gallifrey/Time War/soldier complex treated metaphorically through the British Empire and WWI. And I don't think the Doctor secretly wants to be a human, but I think there's this . . . why can't I just be a person? that's a huge part of the tragedy of Ten, that he felt he couldn't be. And that's where this 'then I must be a god' comes in, because he feels that he can't just be a person anymore, so what does that leave him as? And that's why so much of the Eleven and Twelve eras are about giving him that sense back. So these episodes, to me, aren't saying 'yes, the Doctor is a god'--they're saying 'the Doctor feels trapped in this situation where he is not allowed to be a person and that is pushing him over the edge.'
(It's also just occurring to me that there's ties to Thirteen as well: colonialism + people trying to steal the Doctor's immortality = The Timeless Children. That's . . . gonna take some chewing over. *pokes*)
But HN/TFoB implies that the Doctor really is that powerful, and...that's the one thing that I simply cannot stand.
I don't see Ten's treatment of the Family as necessarily meaning that. Yes, it shows he's powerful, but what's that thing about any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic? The line people always drag out is 'if you decide who lives and who dies, that makes you a god.' Well, ordinary humans decide who lives and who dies every day. Is every murderer a god? (This has suddenly become an episode of Hannibal.) The problem, as you say, is people (especially the Doctor) assuming that having power is equivalent to godhood, rather than just . . . having a responsibility.
(I don't have a particular problem with what he did morally either, tbh. I know it's indisputably part of Ten's downwards trajectory and he's operating out of spite, but what would people have him do? Kill them? And it is incredibly cold, yes, but it's also strictly just. Not quite as neat as allowing the consequences of somebody's actions to be their own punishment, but it's in that spirit. Never get me started on what he did to Harriet Jones, though . . .)
You and [personal profile] elisi are "grateful the Midnight love has waned a little" (not for me, it hasn't!) - but I saw "Human Nature" / "The Family of Blood" on the list and thought What Is Wrong With People?!?
LOL. Well, I am thoroughly happy to be Wrong On The Internet, so you may continue to judge me as you see fit ; ). But I appreciate your sharing your own perspective on those episodes. IDK, I generally loathe the whole Lonely God thing, but I find those episodes the most interesting and nuanced treatment of the idea (as opposed to, say, Tinkerbell Jesus Doctor just a few episodes later.)
ETA: I think something about me and the Rusty years is that every time the show asks 'is the Doctor a god?' I immediately and instinctively go 'no, next question.' And how well I take any given story is directly correlated to how much it allows me to interpret it from that standpoint. I'm not sure what, frankly, you could have the Doctor do that would make me go 'oh wow, he really is a god.' I am, on a very fundamental level, an atheist: gods do not exist. So, yeah, how I interpret HN/FoB is irrevocably shaped by the fact that I am never going to believe the Doctor actually is a god. HN/FoB goes 'is the Doctor a god?' and I can say 'no, but why he or anybody else thinks that and the consequences of doing so is fascinating.' Where Last of the Time Lords asks 'is the Doctor a god?' and I'm like 'still no, but man, you really, really want me to think so, and it's getting tedious.'
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I'm sorry!!! I didn't mean it that way. That was my initial, reflexive reaction, and I shouldn't have put it into a comment. I'm sorry!!!! I do understand why people like those episodes and I certainly don't judge anyone for liking something I dislike. And...it really is less a matter of disliking than having a reaction that's rooted in my own issues. Ever since childhood I've been terrified of the idea of suffering that never ends, and terrified of the idea of consciousness that never ends because consciousness inherently contains the possibility of suffering, so consciousness that never ends inherently contains the possibility of suffering that never ends. I'd have had no problem with Ten killing the Family. It's the unending suffering thing that I can't deal with (and even if they're eventually freed...I just don't want unending suffering to be possible in the Doctor Who universe). It's why I can only cope with Good Omens if I can headcanon that humans don't actually get tortured in Hell. It's why I wanted Ten to die permanently at the end of "The End of the World". It's why I hope so much that S3 of Good Omens ends with the transformation of the horrific Good Omens universe into our universe, because however horrible our universe is - and it's plenty horrible! - there is as far as we know no entity that's more powerful than the laws of physics. So, yeah, it's just me and my issues, and I should really, really, really not have brought it up here. I apologize.
Also: you make excellent, excellent points, and I do understand why you like the episodes, and if I were saner, I probably would too.
I'm sorry.
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Yes!
<3
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I have no particular opinion on Blink - I like it well enough, but definitely agree that it's not quintessential Doctor Who (esp with the Doctor not being in it much). However Sally Sparrow is an incredibly engaging character and the Weeping Angels are a brilliant invention, so I can see why people responded the way they did. (Unlike Midnight which I just found depressing and not very good, and then found myself baffled when the entirety of fandom adored it. Hey ho, life would be dull if we all liked the same things.)
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But I thank you!
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